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THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 06:06 AM
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THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.

IF you have the courage to let a false teaching GO.

Because pre trib is BLOWN TO PEICES byt this post.

There is NO WAY you can read this and then still say pre trib is correct.

I challenge one and all to PROVE THIS POST WRONG!

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation. Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:11 PM
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
can't say that it's not being attempted, what with all the holes in planes.

Gonna try to suck 'em into heaven through that little hole ?
DERAIL

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04/04/2011 01:18 PM
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
You need to move

"So to summarise...." To The Top Of Your Page

I got a little irritated when I seen that at the bottom.


...thanks for the read.

Last Edited by DERAIL on 04/04/2011 01:21 PM
atheism is a non-prophet organization

-GC
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:24 PM
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
Cowards are still going to believe in it.
Good work OP!
sumptingood

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04/04/2011 01:26 PM

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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
sorry, im not going to read all that even once and i am gonna reply. rapture is a perfectly sound doctrine and is all through the bible. YOU read it again, YOU read the bible and find references to being caught up. Then, if YOU have the courage, ask the almighty God if there is a rapture and to show it to you if you really want to know. If not, YOU are the person mentioned in the bible that says, my master is staying away a long time and then begins to beat the servants. Not only is it CLEARLY discribed repeatedly, God has revealed it to many through dreams and visions as He has for me. You got to me tooooo late to tell me the truth isn't the truth. Stop beating God's servants by your feeble attempts to destroy their blessed hope promised them.

Last Edited by naneenaneenuunuu on 04/04/2011 01:27 PM
By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth.
Song of Solomon, 3. 1
Heatrae

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04/04/2011 01:30 PM
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
Well so much for the "Blessed Hope". OP, I think that was the longest opening post I've ever read on this site.

I think the Rapture happens right before the 7 Bowl judgments about 1/2 way through the trib. When the 2 witnesses are resurrected and called up to meet the Lord in the air when he says "Come Up Here". That is when I think it will happen because the Bowl Judgements are God's wrath specifically intended for all the unbelievers. That period of time is when Satan fights Michael and gets thrown down to earth and possesses the Antichirst and wages Jihad on the Jews and Christians.

There will be a lot of converts to Christianity when the rapture happens and they finally set the big picture.Those post-rapture Christians are the ones that will have to accept the Mark or get beheaded in the last 1/2 of the trib.period when the "Great Tribualtion" kicks in.

You can have your view, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Over the past 30 years, studying Rev. and Daniel, I came up with what I think is correct and have believed in both pre and Post trib at one time or another as I was still learning things. I think it wise for all Chistians to be ready to meet the Lord at anytime but also to be prepared to go through some or all the trib. events in case he tarries.
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
Thats way too much to read. Read up on the Jewish marriage and all that is involved. Your not going to beat up your bride and then have a marriage supper.


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



Everything before Rev 6:17 is not Gods wrath.

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The elect you are refering to have lived thru the tribulation and taken the mark. Think about it. Christ himself says "in the days of Noah". God waited for the ark to be finished before he unleashed the flood.
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:32 PM
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
who gives a fuck. let what ever happens happen
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:33 PM
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1327352


How do you get raptured from that?
It simply says changed, that could mean many things.
The problem with most christians is they all believe themselves to be correct and anyone who disagrees to be wrong.
Each of them have their own verses to back up their belief.
You are no different than them; you are being judgemental, and your attitude appears holier-than-thou.
Perhaps you need to read some humbling verses next time.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
"Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

~~Luke 21:36

If there's no "escape", why would Jesus tell us to pray continuously for it?
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:37 PM
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sorry, im not going to read all that even once and i am gonna reply. rapture is a perfectly sound doctrine and is all through the bible. YOU read it again, YOU read the bible and find references to being caught up. Then, if YOU have the courage, ask the almighty God if there is a rapture and to show it to you if you really want to know. If not, YOU are the person mentioned in the bible that says, my master is staying away a long time and then begins to beat the servants. Not only is it CLEARLY discribed repeatedly, God has revealed it to many through dreams and visions as He has for me. You got to me tooooo late to tell me the truth isn't the truth. Stop beating God's servants by your feeble attempts to destroy their blessed hope promised them.
 Quoting: sumptingood


Folks; this is NOT, a salvation issue.
Anonymous Coward
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"Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

~~Luke 21:36

If there's no "escape", why would Jesus tell us to pray continuously for it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1224016


Also, how do you square the doctrine of "the imminate and unknowable return" with the prophecy in Daniel that tells the very day of the Earthly return from the start of the Trib?
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:40 PM
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Great post op! I was already in agreement with the thread. Thanks to hal lindsay and co. many people believe this false doctrine and their faith will not be tested to the fullest, being raptured before these things. Was Abraham spared the trip up the mountain with Issac?
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:41 PM
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
This ozzie is tearing it up lately.
Anonymous Coward
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I'm not reading all that s**t. Christianity is a stupid religion from the Gentiles that's going down no matter how many lies they make up to justify the foolishness.
sumptingood

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sorry, im not going to read all that even once and i am gonna reply. rapture is a perfectly sound doctrine and is all through the bible. YOU read it again, YOU read the bible and find references to being caught up. Then, if YOU have the courage, ask the almighty God if there is a rapture and to show it to you if you really want to know. If not, YOU are the person mentioned in the bible that says, my master is staying away a long time and then begins to beat the servants. Not only is it CLEARLY discribed repeatedly, God has revealed it to many through dreams and visions as He has for me. You got to me tooooo late to tell me the truth isn't the truth. Stop beating God's servants by your feeble attempts to destroy their blessed hope promised them.
 Quoting: sumptingood


Folks; this is NOT, a salvation issue.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1260795


I wasn't talking about salvation, only the rapture as you are addressing. Have you ever read revelation? You can't survive it and there is no mention of the church after revelation 4, thats because we arent on the earth. what are those horrible creatures described? they are something horrible and Im not gonna be here to deal with them. But yeah, you go ahead and stay with them, good luck with that.
By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth.
Song of Solomon, 3. 1
Anonymous Coward
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I'm not reading all that s**t. Christianity is a stupid religion from the Gentiles that's going down no matter how many lies they make up to justify the foolishness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1321874


And you would be a ...
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:47 PM
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sorry, im not going to read all that even once and i am gonna reply. rapture is a perfectly sound doctrine and is all through the bible. YOU read it again, YOU read the bible and find references to being caught up. Then, if YOU have the courage, ask the almighty God if there is a rapture and to show it to you if you really want to know. If not, YOU are the person mentioned in the bible that says, my master is staying away a long time and then begins to beat the servants. Not only is it CLEARLY discribed repeatedly, God has revealed it to many through dreams and visions as He has for me. You got to me tooooo late to tell me the truth isn't the truth. Stop beating God's servants by your feeble attempts to destroy their blessed hope promised them.
 Quoting: sumptingood


Folks; this is NOT, a salvation issue.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1260795


I wasn't talking about salvation, only the rapture as you are addressing. Have you ever read revelation? You can't survive it and there is no mention of the church after revelation 4, thats because we arent on the earth. what are those horrible creatures described? they are something horrible and Im not gonna be here to deal with them. But yeah, you go ahead and stay with them, good luck with that.
 Quoting: sumptingood


Hi; I'm not the OP, and your kind of going off on me Sister. I am undecided. Some are staying behind you know; to witness, to whoever is left. Peace.
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:51 PM
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ONLY reply to this AFTER you have read it TWICE.
......
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1327352


Why is it so important for you to debunk pretrib rapture?
Why, why, why why?
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 01:57 PM
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sorry, im not going to read all that even once and i am gonna reply. rapture is a perfectly sound doctrine and is all through the bible. YOU read it again, YOU read the bible and find references to being caught up. Then, if YOU have the courage, ask the almighty God if there is a rapture and to show it to you if you really want to know. If not, YOU are the person mentioned in the bible that says, my master is staying away a long time and then begins to beat the servants. Not only is it CLEARLY discribed repeatedly, God has revealed it to many through dreams and visions as He has for me. You got to me tooooo late to tell me the truth isn't the truth. Stop beating God's servants by your feeble attempts to destroy their blessed hope promised them.
 Quoting: sumptingood


Yup there is clear evidence for the pre-trib rapture in scripture, of which the Lord personally showed me was correct. Very little in the OPP's post for which there isn't an answer for.
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Great post op! I was already in agreement with the thread. Thanks to hal lindsay and co. many people believe this false doctrine and their faith will not be tested to the fullest, being raptured before these things. Was Abraham spared the trip up the mountain with Issac?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1327872


The tribulation is the time of God's wrath on those who've rejected Him, there is no reason for His children to have to go thru it.
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:08 PM
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People like to claim that those who hope in the rapture are people who do not want to experience the trying and purifying of God. That they are looking for a way out of trials in this life. Perhaps that is true for some. I suspect God will purify his children every moment of every day in a personal and intimate way specific to each need.

Perhaps most (myself included) simply underestimate The Wrath Of God. It is not a period of time to wish to be on this planet. It is not a period of time where God is testing his bride.

It is a time of vengeance and great wrath against an unbelieving and unrepentant world. It is so great that even the angels proclaim Woe!. The Father will express his anger in a way which none can imagine. None have seen such times ever in history nor ever will again. None would escape if those days were not cut short.

Will there be those who come to The Father in those times. LORD willing YES. Will they be subjected to tremendous deception suffering and terrors. Sadly, scripture says yes.

Why do Gods people pray that they are accounted worthy to escape such things. Perhaps they have been given a tiny glimpse of the terrors which await an unbelieving and unrepentant generation. It is a very bitter pill in my belly. LORD have mercy on us all.

It is my hope that all men would come to the knowledge of The LORD and Savior.

May be all keep our lamps filled with oil, looking for that blessed hope.

peace,
ArchaicSEAL
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04/04/2011 02:25 PM
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there is NO RAPTURE PERIOD!! YOu RELIGIOUS TYPES NEED TO GET FUCKING GRIP ON REAL LIFE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1321860


Really? And you are absolutely sure about this how? I mean, for a long time nobody believed what quantum physics was telling us (basically that if something is not observed or measured it does not physically exist.) The slit expermients proved this to be absolutely true. The universe (Real life as you put it) doesn't exist unless it is observed or measured. It has dumbfounded those that believed as you do, that real life isn't like that. That everything that we believed always exists really doesn't until it is avtively observed or measured. And when I say doesn't "actively exist" I mean that the physical particles don't exist (pop into reality) until measured or observed.

So what is real life? What is the true fabric of reality? For decades we were so very sure about everything being absolutely real, and then we found out that nothing is as it seemed (in any way.) In the same fashion how can you be absolutely sure that God isn't real? Does the illusion that everything in the universe is a random occurrence preclude the possibility that it was all started by a greater being than us?

You see, whether you want to accept this or not, the truth is you cannot prove (through scientific means, which is all that matters) that God exists or doesn't. You have to take one, or the other, on faith alone. Either way you are taking it on faith.

Think of it this way: You have all the symptoms of a faulty memory module in your computer. So you decide that the problem is the memory stick and you pop it out, buy another one and replace it. All the evidence you had seen lead you to accept the fact that the memory module failed. You replace the memory module and it works fine for another two months before it too fails. Because what you failed to realize is that the first memory module that you had failed because the socket it was placed into had a problem that caused it to fail. But until you realized that (months later when your new memory also failed) you were absolutely sure that your first memory stick was the problem. Only you were wrong. It was an illusion, the memory stick had no problem until the socket caused it to fail. The socket was the problem and the memory stick failed because of it.

Now this is a simple situation with only a small loss in money being the consequence. But what if you make the same error in judgement with something important... such as your life, or perhaps, the possibility of eternal life? That is not an error you can recover from. As Pascal so elegantly proved in his matrix on God.

Arrogance is the mother of all fuck-ups. Seriously think about this. Because we don't know what really is illusion and what really is reality.
ArchaicSEAL
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04/04/2011 02:29 PM
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You are exactly right OP. I had to do the research myself and come to that conclusion myself long ago. Thanks for taking the time to share it with everyone. I know it was a good bit of work just to get to the understanding... not to mention writting it all down.

It is another reason I left organized Christian religion to follow Christ on my own. If they got that part misunderstood and wrong, what else did they have wrong?

I have yet to find any church that teaches a post-trib raptos. I guess it's a form of the normalcy bias from the Christian perspective. Besides I find too often that so very few Christians actually think for themselves... they are very lazy (especially here in the US) and would rather buy books and read them or listen to some preacher tell them what to believe.
sumptingood

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04/04/2011 02:32 PM

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they aren't left behind, like God didn't care, those christians who stay in the trib do so by choice and are first empowered. everyone will have a rapture experience first, then those who choose will return to help. Ive seen it, I know what im talking about.
By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth.
Song of Solomon, 3. 1
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Re: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!
Thread: The Bible is a marriage contract

the Bible is a marriage contract!

love rb
sumptingood

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04/04/2011 02:35 PM

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You are exactly right OP. I had to do the research myself and come to that conclusion myself long ago. Thanks for taking the time to share it with everyone. I know it was a good bit of work just to get to the understanding... not to mention writting it all down.

It is another reason I left organized Christian religion to follow Christ on my own. If they got that part misunderstood and wrong, what else did they have wrong?

I have yet to find any church that teaches a post-trib raptos. I guess it's a form of the normalcy bias from the Christian perspective. Besides I find too often that so very few Christians actually think for themselves... they are very lazy (especially here in the US) and would rather buy books and read them or listen to some preacher tell them what to believe.
 Quoting: ArchaicSEAL 873894


funny, the Christ Im following never taught me any of that, at all. Im not following organized religion either, I only follow Jesus as Im lead. And, Jesus taught me that we will be kept OUT of the trib that is coming, NOT through it. That is the truth and the only truth. the rapture is NOT a product of organized relgion. Stop teaching that crap that truth isn't truth, stop it. Me and mine are leaving when God comes for us. But you go ahead and stay here, you want to soooooo bad
By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth.
Song of Solomon, 3. 1
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 02:44 PM
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there is NO RAPTURE PERIOD!! YOu RELIGIOUS TYPES NEED TO GET FUCKING GRIP ON REAL LIFE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1321860




and those of us who understand and know without questions how far off the rapture believers are from truth

need to let it come to them in due time, which it obviously will since the rapture isn't going to happen.

there is one coming to offer to fly you out of here but it won't be the Messiah, it will be the false messiah.

if they aren't aware enough to know that the 6th trump comes first BEFORE the 7th trump, then it's pretty much a given that they are going to be deceived.

not rocket science, count to 7 and you have it made unless you are numerically dyslexic or something I guess

false christ comes at 6th trump

true christ comes at the 7th trump

DUH

and none of us will be changed back into our spiritual bodies until the 7th TRUMP which is the Second Advent, period

what happens in the interim however will be the test that tells the tale of the tape regarding all those who either will or will not make the first resurrection.

in the parable regarding two workers in the field (the world) those who are taken from the field FIRST will be taken by antichrist. those who remain in the field working until the end, or the 7th trump... will have remained faithful unto Christ until the end.

it's just that simple and even a child can understand it so the only reason so many don't is their false programming in the world churches.

during the time Christ walked the earth there were only two churches that taught truth, what makes you think anything has changed to this very day?

if you think it has, think again.
rb
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04/04/2011 02:45 PM
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You are exactly right OP. I had to do the research myself and come to that conclusion myself long ago. Thanks for taking the time to share it with everyone. I know it was a good bit of work just to get to the understanding... not to mention writting it all down.

It is another reason I left organized Christian religion to follow Christ on my own. If they got that part misunderstood and wrong, what else did they have wrong?

I have yet to find any church that teaches a post-trib raptos. I guess it's a form of the normalcy bias from the Christian perspective. Besides I find too often that so very few Christians actually think for themselves... they are very lazy (especially here in the US) and would rather buy books and read them or listen to some preacher tell them what to believe.
 Quoting: ArchaicSEAL 873894




most Christian churches are amillenial posttrib -- they interpret the Bible allegorically

only fundamentalist churches who take the Bible literally are premillennial pretrib ;-)

love rb
rb
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04/04/2011 02:50 PM
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take a look at the chart just down this page

[link to en.m.wikipedia.org]

only Protestants teach premillenial pretrib as far as I know.

interesting to look at the chart there are 7 major divisions with an offshoot and a "union" -- could be the 7 churches of revelation :-)

love rb
Anonymous Coward
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04/04/2011 03:12 PM
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The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1327352


Stan - just doesn't sound right. =/