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Let us talk about philosophy

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:16 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
anyways....

the subject of this thread reminds me greatly of the 'Breath of Life' concept....conscious life must be given....


if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically....

now Helen Keller, although born blind and deaf, developed a keen intellect....she received the breath of life
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Instresting. What exactly is the breath of life concept?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


i need to find a link....about the girl from Brazil....

her life explains it rather well....


be back shortly....
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:16 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
...


Can you expand on how everything is a paradox.

And also about how that implys infinite complexion?

Intrested in discussing it further with you
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089

Information is a paradox because it is constantly being learned and absorbed, almost like a black hole, but on a smaller scale.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1197989


I dont understand how that makes information a paradox?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


Okay. It is all saved albeit in memories, books, movies, letters, visual perception...you name it. Our species seems to be feeding off the paradox of nature which presents us life. Think of a swirling spiral, but replace the spiral with the evolution of existance/tech/space/birth/death/afterlife/intellect/informat​ion...endless spirals, always expanding just as our universe is right now.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1197989


Hmm, information is saved in all these things, interpreted elsewhere ect, but i dont see how thats a paradox?

Im having trouble seeing the contradiction here?
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:17 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
anyways....

the subject of this thread reminds me greatly of the 'Breath of Life' concept....conscious life must be given....


if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically....

now Helen Keller, although born blind and deaf, developed a keen intellect....she received the breath of life
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Have you heard about the dying violinist senario?

it here you can look: [link to en.wikipedia.org]


would you let him remain pluged in to you and and give up your autonmy? Become a non person but merely an instrument of worth being used bo someone else? Howabout if being hooked up to your violinist cost you your life?

Ah the joys of what if.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:19 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
Go to this thread. Read it:

Thread: A clear concise path to defeating the NWO:Thoreauvian Disobedience
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:20 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
anyways....

the subject of this thread reminds me greatly of the 'Breath of Life' concept....conscious life must be given....


if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically....

now Helen Keller, although born blind and deaf, developed a keen intellect....she received the breath of life
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Instresting. What exactly is the breath of life concept?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


i need to find a link....about the girl from Brazil....

her life explains it rather well....


be back shortly....
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Okey,

Is this:

"if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically...."

What it is/was thought to be, but the girl from brazil proves otherwise?

do i follow?
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:24 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
Everything is moving away from everything else, but nothing is moving away from the center, because everything was (and still is) the center. This can be applied to the big bang/singularity. Different scales of existence, no boundaries to the physical or mental world (perception is infinite IMO).
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:30 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
bump
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:37 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1127413


It's a huge step to self-governance, one in which I think cannot but fail or cost an uncountable figure to many individuals, of whose loss might or might not be positive. It swings the door wide open on the monkeys on the rubbish dump scenario… The aggressive monkeys ruled the rubbish dump where food pickings were plentiful, and all the timid monkeys disbanded and foraged by conventional means while the aggressive monkeys stayed in an ever increasing sized troop. Then a deadly strain of disease hit the dump and took out all of the most aggressive monkeys. The short of it was the timid gentler monkeys remained foragers and thrived, they also transformed any aggressive monkeys by disallowing the aggression and segregating them from their community. Everyone has their own take on what Thoreauvian style self-governance might achieve in a power vacuum. We’ll see, maybe soon even.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:42 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
anyways....

the subject of this thread reminds me greatly of the 'Breath of Life' concept....conscious life must be given....


if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically....

now Helen Keller, although born blind and deaf, developed a keen intellect....she received the breath of life
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Have you heard about the dying violinist senario?

it here you can look: [link to en.wikipedia.org]


would you let him remain pluged in to you and and give up your autonmy? Become a non person but merely an instrument of worth being used bo someone else? Howabout if being hooked up to your violinist cost you your life?

Ah the joys of what if.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that has nothing to do with what i am stating....nothing whatsoever
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:47 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
anyways....

the subject of this thread reminds me greatly of the 'Breath of Life' concept....conscious life must be given....


if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically....

now Helen Keller, although born blind and deaf, developed a keen intellect....she received the breath of life
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Instresting. What exactly is the breath of life concept?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


i need to find a link....about the girl from Brazil....

her life explains it rather well....


be back shortly....
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Okey,

Is this:

"if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically...."

What it is/was thought to be, but the girl from brazil proves otherwise?

do i follow?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089

well, it was a case of a feral child....

anyways, human syntax development must be 'triggered' by a certain age for conscious thought to develop....a specific 'window' so-to-speak....

humans cannot develop conscious thought on their own....IMPOSSIBLE biologically....
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:50 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
anyways....

the subject of this thread reminds me greatly of the 'Breath of Life' concept....conscious life must be given....


if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically....

now Helen Keller, although born blind and deaf, developed a keen intellect....she received the breath of life
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Have you heard about the dying violinist senario?

it here you can look: [link to en.wikipedia.org]


would you let him remain pluged in to you and and give up your autonmy? Become a non person but merely an instrument of worth being used bo someone else? Howabout if being hooked up to your violinist cost you your life?

Ah the joys of what if.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that has nothing to do with what i am stating....nothing whatsoever

 Quoting: Sugarelf
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:52 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
what do you consider conscious thought? the thought that says they just felt pain or hunger, heat or cold? Fright or comfort? Are they not conscious thoughts? Language can not be a determinant of conscious thought.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:53 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
anyways....

the subject of this thread reminds me greatly of the 'Breath of Life' concept....conscious life must be given....


if a human is born, and for the first 10 years or so of its life never has any contact with any human being, then that human can never develop language skills necessary for conscious thought....even though that human is perfectly normal biologically....

now Helen Keller, although born blind and deaf, developed a keen intellect....she received the breath of life
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Have you heard about the dying violinist senario?

it here you can look: [link to en.wikipedia.org]


would you let him remain pluged in to you and and give up your autonmy? Become a non person but merely an instrument of worth being used bo someone else? Howabout if being hooked up to your violinist cost you your life?

Ah the joys of what if.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that has nothing to do with what i am stating....nothing whatsoever

 Quoting: Sugarelf

 Quoting: Sugarelf


no, okay, consider it a new line of inquiry.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:54 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1127413


It's a huge step to self-governance, one in which I think cannot but fail or cost an uncountable figure to many individuals, of whose loss might or might not be positive. It swings the door wide open on the monkeys on the rubbish dump scenario… The aggressive monkeys ruled the rubbish dump where food pickings were plentiful, and all the timid monkeys disbanded and foraged by conventional means while the aggressive monkeys stayed in an ever increasing sized troop. Then a deadly strain of disease hit the dump and took out all of the most aggressive monkeys. The short of it was the timid gentler monkeys remained foragers and thrived, they also transformed any aggressive monkeys by disallowing the aggression and segregating them from their community. Everyone has their own take on what Thoreauvian style self-governance might achieve in a power vacuum. We’ll see, maybe soon even.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that is about the subject of psychology....


just what EXACTLY does that have to do with the subject of philosophy ??
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:55 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
can you determine to a pin point what IS a thought?
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:55 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
...


Have you heard about the dying violinist senario?

it here you can look: [link to en.wikipedia.org]


would you let him remain pluged in to you and and give up your autonmy? Become a non person but merely an instrument of worth being used bo someone else? Howabout if being hooked up to your violinist cost you your life?

Ah the joys of what if.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that has nothing to do with what i am stating....nothing whatsoever

 Quoting: Sugarelf

 Quoting: Sugarelf


no, okay, consider it a new line of inquiry.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


whatever, i have no interest in unrelated subject whatsoever....
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:57 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
can you determine to a pin point what IS a thought?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316

that is easy:

I think, therefore I am
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 12:59 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1127413


It's a huge step to self-governance, one in which I think cannot but fail or cost an uncountable figure to many individuals, of whose loss might or might not be positive. It swings the door wide open on the monkeys on the rubbish dump scenario… The aggressive monkeys ruled the rubbish dump where food pickings were plentiful, and all the timid monkeys disbanded and foraged by conventional means while the aggressive monkeys stayed in an ever increasing sized troop. Then a deadly strain of disease hit the dump and took out all of the most aggressive monkeys. The short of it was the timid gentler monkeys remained foragers and thrived, they also transformed any aggressive monkeys by disallowing the aggression and segregating them from their community. Everyone has their own take on what Thoreauvian style self-governance might achieve in a power vacuum. We’ll see, maybe soon even.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that is about the subject of psychology....


just what EXACTLY does that have to do with the subject of philosophy ??
 Quoting: Sugarelf



No, its an argument on autonomy/sovereignty, the discussion as to what autonomy is and how far it goes and all the ponderance surouning soverign beings is indeed philosophy. The ethics debate is an enormous phiosophical school of thought.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 01:02 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
can you determine to a pin point what IS a thought?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316

that is easy:

I think, therefore I am
 Quoting: Sugarelf


no that is infantile.

Is the grandmother in an vegative state a non person?
did she cease to be because she no longer thinks? Would she still have moral rights?
If someone raped her would that be morally wrong?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1127413


It's a huge step to self-governance, one in which I think cannot but fail or cost an uncountable figure to many individuals, of whose loss might or might not be positive. It swings the door wide open on the monkeys on the rubbish dump scenario… The aggressive monkeys ruled the rubbish dump where food pickings were plentiful, and all the timid monkeys disbanded and foraged by conventional means while the aggressive monkeys stayed in an ever increasing sized troop. Then a deadly strain of disease hit the dump and took out all of the most aggressive monkeys. The short of it was the timid gentler monkeys remained foragers and thrived, they also transformed any aggressive monkeys by disallowing the aggression and segregating them from their community. Everyone has their own take on what Thoreauvian style self-governance might achieve in a power vacuum. We’ll see, maybe soon even.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that is about the subject of psychology....


just what EXACTLY does that have to do with the subject of philosophy ??
 Quoting: Sugarelf



No, its an argument on autonomy/sovereignty,

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


HORSESHIT !!

well, it has NOTHING to do with human autonomy/sovereignty....nothing whatsoever.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 01:03 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
can you determine to a pin point what IS a thought?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316

that is easy:

I think, therefore I am
 Quoting: Sugarelf


no that is infantile.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


you said specifically to a pin point did you not ??
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 01:08 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
what do you consider conscious thought? the thought that says they just felt pain or hunger, heat or cold? Fright or comfort? Are they not conscious thoughts? Language can not be a determinant of conscious thought.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


This is a tricky one, and im not well versed in this subject.

But i think what he means is, it is required for the development of thought that leads to "why did i just feel hungry?" "How do i feel pain?" or the age old "what is the meaning of life?", as opposed to" Im hungry, i should eat" or "that hurts, dont do that". correct me if im wrong?

And i should point out, im not aware if there is a different definition for this type of thought, if one even exists, and if not, this could get very confusing very quickly, hehe
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04/15/2011 01:14 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
what do you consider conscious thought? the thought that says they just felt pain or hunger, heat or cold? Fright or comfort? Are they not conscious thoughts? Language can not be a determinant of conscious thought.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


This is a tricky one, and im not well versed in this subject.

But i think what he means is, it is required for the development of thought that leads to "why did i just feel hungry?" "How do i feel pain?" or the age old "what is the meaning of life?", as opposed to" Im hungry, i should eat" or "that hurts, dont do that". correct me if im wrong?

And i should point out, im not aware if there is a different definition for this type of thought, if one even exists, and if not, this could get very confusing very quickly, hehe
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


well the thing is, language develops logic....

logic and the ability to 'infer' come from language acquisition....

Human Acquisition Language....HAL....

halo and good night !!

it is bed time for me....

thanks for the rapport hf
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 01:32 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
...


It's a huge step to self-governance, one in which I think cannot but fail or cost an uncountable figure to many individuals, of whose loss might or might not be positive. It swings the door wide open on the monkeys on the rubbish dump scenario… The aggressive monkeys ruled the rubbish dump where food pickings were plentiful, and all the timid monkeys disbanded and foraged by conventional means while the aggressive monkeys stayed in an ever increasing sized troop. Then a deadly strain of disease hit the dump and took out all of the most aggressive monkeys. The short of it was the timid gentler monkeys remained foragers and thrived, they also transformed any aggressive monkeys by disallowing the aggression and segregating them from their community. Everyone has their own take on what Thoreauvian style self-governance might achieve in a power vacuum. We’ll see, maybe soon even.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


that is about the subject of psychology....


just what EXACTLY does that have to do with the subject of philosophy ??
 Quoting: Sugarelf



No, its an argument on autonomy/sovereignty,

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


HORSESHIT !!

well, it has NOTHING to do with human autonomy/sovereignty....nothing whatsoever.
 Quoting: Sugarelf


are you feeling pissed yet?
You are wrong, you see governance is what leads to large groups going down in large groups, and it doesnt matter who the boss is really.
self governance in a disbanded unit will have the individual go down on their own if they go down at all or in their new lawless society rob some other poor bastard to stay on their game.

People act in a certain manner in utillitarian societies in order to fit, often utillitarian ideals are not good, but they do keep order, Thoreauvian disobediance throws all that out the window.

Thoreauvian disobediance, is based on individualist principles so for that matter alone clearly it suits the west, cause the east is communitarian (not to be confussed with communist). now, if under the principle of Thoreauvian disobediance the general idea is for self governance and to basically look after self first then society will faction. the agressive players will branch off and others will disperse possibly very thinly and many of those would be passive in the dispersal group, because they seek avoidance to the harm of self. Some passives would be choosing to live under a new agressive rule and probably exploited, but for some the safty of the mob is a good trade off for their hard work.

Thoreauvian disobediance almost ensures the excusing of trampling over anothers rights in order to promote ones own, and all that in the hopes of something better.

Hahahaha you Americans are going to have so much fun sorting your lot out in the years to come.. no matter which way you look at it its going to suck. It will be a country of factions and ill respect, small communities with some boss holding power and "keeping people in order" and everyone trying to keep everyone else alive.


Its times like 2011 I'm so happy I'm Australian. but dont worry, I'll do the right thing and give up what I can without sacrifising my own liberty and autonomy to try and make at least one persons life less painfull... I think Dr's without boarders is an amaising organisation.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 01:34 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
what do you consider conscious thought? the thought that says they just felt pain or hunger, heat or cold? Fright or comfort? Are they not conscious thoughts? Language can not be a determinant of conscious thought.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


This is a tricky one, and im not well versed in this subject.

But i think what he means is, it is required for the development of thought that leads to "why did i just feel hungry?" "How do i feel pain?" or the age old "what is the meaning of life?", as opposed to" Im hungry, i should eat" or "that hurts, dont do that". correct me if im wrong?

And i should point out, im not aware if there is a different definition for this type of thought, if one even exists, and if not, this could get very confusing very quickly, hehe
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


there is thought and then there is awareness I think that might be where you where going.

but seperating the two is almost impossible, because they are interwoven so closly.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 01:38 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
what do you consider conscious thought? the thought that says they just felt pain or hunger, heat or cold? Fright or comfort? Are they not conscious thoughts? Language can not be a determinant of conscious thought.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


This is a tricky one, and im not well versed in this subject.

But i think what he means is, it is required for the development of thought that leads to "why did i just feel hungry?" "How do i feel pain?" or the age old "what is the meaning of life?", as opposed to" Im hungry, i should eat" or "that hurts, dont do that". correct me if im wrong?

And i should point out, im not aware if there is a different definition for this type of thought, if one even exists, and if not, this could get very confusing very quickly, hehe
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


well the thing is, language develops logic....

logic and the ability to 'infer' come from language acquisition....

Human Acquisition Language....HAL....

halo and good night !!

it is bed time for me....

thanks for the rapport hf
 Quoting: Sugarelf


this suggests there is no such thing as illogical thought, now thats an interesting notion. Illogical thought is indeed thought. thought in greek is thought as it is in english or wild dog.
Anonymous Coward
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04/15/2011 01:42 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
can you determine to a pin point what IS a thought?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316

that is easy:

I think, therefore I am
 Quoting: Sugarelf


no that is infantile.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


you said specifically to a pin point did you not ??
 Quoting: Sugarelf


yes.. but you just wrote off every person in a vegative state, now when they are all put down against their wishes because they cant have wishes because they no longer "are"
that can be deemed A OKAY.

lol
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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04/15/2011 08:32 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
Okay a real thing does necessitate its existence necessarily the same applies for any thought. The real thing which is perceived gives content or the potential to think about its structure and nature. We can understand the structure and nature as much as possible about that which gives the structure and nature of a real thing an intelligent context. Once we think about the structure or nature of the substance is gives a perspective on the thing in and of itself. But we can never know the thing in and of itself we can only perceive its manifestation in the object.
GeistFaust (OP)
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04/15/2011 08:37 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
...


In my perspective the higher forms of life depend on the lower forms of life to be conscious creatures that is the environment itself from the lowest to the highest elements must be self sustained to continue to have nature itself react in a way that is neutralizing or self negating. The conscious mind is supposed to keep nature in check and to add or negate his relation to the nature that surrounds and envelops his own natural position. This means nature is man without nature there is no man. Man is but an offspring of nature but since man is a highly evolved mechanized and conscious offspring of nature this allows man to in some way keep nature at bay so as to protect himself from its chaotic and irrational impulses. Man need also keep himself protected from his internal nature especially concerning his conduct with others around him as well as nature itself and this is called ethics.
 Quoting: GeistFaust


poetic.

Would you still consider man to have higher moral worth than of that, that sustains the intricacy of the whole web of life?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


Yes I would actually I believe that the higher moral worth of things is predicated in large part but what man gives him in regard to his act. The act does not necessitate a moral situation but the moral situation necessitates an act. This means that an act deals with rational situations as well and not purely moral actually it is only a moral affair in so far as it agrees with a rational stance.

But since all reason should be directed towards a moral end this moral end which sustains the intricate web of life even predicating the instincts of other creatures that this moral end must be rational in and of itself since it coincides with all rational beings. Perhaps this means moral is not as irrational an instinct as thought or perhaps this means that reason is something that merely is a directing force for man to connect himself with the whole web of life. But morals just do not apply to man but to all of creation equally. It is only man who can access morals by apprehending it and taking into considerations its consequence on the environment surrounding him.
 Quoting: GeistFaust


Nice argument, so, what did you specialise your PHD toward?
Or is it still coming together?

hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1337316


I am currently a sophomore in college so whatever I get into is still pending in wings.
GeistFaust (OP)

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04/15/2011 08:44 AM
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Re: Let us talk about philosophy
Well, regaurding: "can we truely know something?" (absolute 100% certainty

I have have already proposed that, I exist, as a 100% certianty.

Ive given my reasons why. And have yet to be proved wrong.

So can we now safely say "we can truely know something."

or has anyone else thats been reading my posts still disagree?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1301089


There never can be 100% certainty of your existence via consciousness and thought. It is impossible to determine the actual content of a thing simply through thought. At the same time our only means of understanding the actual content of a thing is through consciousness. This pretty much means that there is absolutely no means to be conscious of your existence 100%. Now you can understand your existence to a certain degree or magnitude but never with absolute certainty because to know something with absolute certainty is like to not know it at all in the context of being thought of. You might have an intuitive feel that you exist but this is a matter that is quite misty and obscure. The thing is you have experienced things simply through who you are as of now. You have changed over time slowly and gradually. You ineffably know yourself as you already are under conditions that have been determined within the context of time. We can never truly know a thing does this mean that the true knowledge of the thing does not exist not at all but we just can't be conscious of the absolute value of a thing this is because the absolute value necessarily negates its connects or compatibility with our consciousness.

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