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ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2011 07:21 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
The great perturber left micrometerorites in chert, ele'd the dinosaurs and ice age megafauna.


We're facked....
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 07:24 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
OK ,
I'm using the formula by Mr Van Falndern which is
the diameter of an object defines its stable sphere of influence in which it can hold orbital objects

it is
a] The Diameter of the Nucleus [ in KM]
b] times 100 [ a constant]
c] times the distance from the sun in A.U.
d} equals the "Sphere of Influence" = [distance of stable orbit]

so if we can measure how far away from the center of the nucleus we can see an object in orbit we can get teh diameter by reverse of this formula..

can you get an accurate measurement of how far away the farthest stable orbital object is from the nucleus of C2010 /x1 is?

my rough estimate for the only one indicated was about .15 arc seconds.. but i measured it off the screen with a piece of paper and estimated the distance .. I got 23.5 KM

UPDATE THE MATH [PROCEDURE] IS CORRECT BUT I GOT A 29/P IMAGE BY ACCIDENT ..

i'm here
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1338855


Last Edited by rphunter on 04/22/2011 08:22 PM
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rb26det

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04/22/2011 07:25 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
OK ,
I'm using the formula by Mr Van Falndern which is
the diameter of an object defines its stable sphere of influence in which it can hold orbital objects

it is
a] The Diameter of the Nucleus [ in KM]
b] times 100 [ a constant]
c] times the distance from the sun in A.U.
d} equals the "Sphere of Influence" = [distance of stable orbit]

so if we can measure how far away from the center of the nucleus we can see an object in orbit we can get teh diameter by reverse of this formula..

can you get an accurate measurement of how far away the farthest stable orbital object is from the nucleus of C2010 /x1 is?

my rough estimate for the only one indicated was about .15 arc seconds.. but i measured it off the screen with a piece of paper and estimated the distance .. I got 23.5 KM

i'm here
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1338855

 Quoting: rphunter


wait
rb26det

User ID: 1338855
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04/22/2011 07:26 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
OK ,
I'm using the formula by Mr Van Falndern which is
the diameter of an object defines its stable sphere of influence in which it can hold orbital objects

it is
a] The Diameter of the Nucleus [ in KM]
b] times 100 [ a constant]
c] times the distance from the sun in A.U.
d} equals the "Sphere of Influence" = [distance of stable orbit]

so if we can measure how far away from the center of the nucleus we can see an object in orbit we can get teh diameter by reverse of this formula..

can you get an accurate measurement of how far away the farthest stable orbital object is from the nucleus of C2010 /x1 is?

my rough estimate for the only one indicated was about .15 arc seconds.. but i measured it off the screen with a piece of paper and estimated the distance .. I got 23.5 KM

i'm here
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1338855

 Quoting: rphunter


wait
 Quoting: rb26det


what do u mean for "ogject in orbit "
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 07:32 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
an object in a stable orbit around c2010 /x1 ..

a co orbital object orbiting around the nucleus of c 2010 /x1

How far away in KM ?

Last Edited by rphunter on 04/22/2011 07:33 PM
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rb26det

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04/22/2011 07:33 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
an object in a stable orbit around c2010 /x1 ..
 Quoting: rphunter


but we dont know if really there is an object around elenin .....

can u pass me a photo where i can see it ? please ...

:)
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 07:34 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]


Last Edited by rphunter on 04/22/2011 07:56 PM
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rb26det

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04/22/2011 07:36 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]

first link .. Arrow


NASA certainly will never provide photos of the comet, Gustavo does.
Check this one folks [link to img714.imageshack.us]
source: [link to gustavomuler.fotografiaastronomica.com]
!
 Quoting: Whoami

 Quoting: DDan


thats 29/p , not elenin
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 07:43 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
ARE YOU SURE??/
[link to www.google.com]

HERE ARE 29/P IMAGES THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE ONE OF THEM


OK sent all images to your in box .. got any current of c 2010 /x1?

Last Edited by rphunter on 04/22/2011 07:49 PM
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rb26det

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04/22/2011 07:48 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
sorry my friend.....but i dont see objects in orbit ....i'm sorry :(
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 07:50 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
OOPS OK

Last Edited by rphunter on 04/22/2011 07:52 PM
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bhudda

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04/22/2011 07:52 PM

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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
to my dismay, it seems leonid elenin has shut DOOM all the way down...

[link to spaceobs.org]
rb26det

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04/22/2011 07:52 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
OOPS OK
 Quoting: rphunter


but ...why they named it 29 /p '?



i didnt understund
rb26det

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04/22/2011 07:56 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
Theory here .. binary star system , exploded planet theory .. comets appear with a huge orbit around the sun and ..??
Naval Astronomer Tom Van Flandern ..comet theory .. sphere of influence..orbits with real theory math .. [link to books.google.com]

THE LATEST TURN OF THIS THREAD IS TO POINT OUT THAT MR ELENIN HIMSELF HAS PROBABLY GIVEN US AN "RUSSIAN GIFT" BY POINTING OUT THIS COMET AND POSING THE QUESTION WITHOUT POSING IT ..

"WHAT DOES THIS COMET ORBIT AROUND TO MAKE IT RETURN TO OUR SOLAR SYSTEM EVERY 10,000[?] YEARS?"
Major Food For thought!


dam good point .. what is it orbiting around out there..??..
Russians don't get excited easily .. Maybe that is the point .. dude you get a tassel for your graduation .. congratulations !!

Just out of curiosity... I understand how the comet can make a sharp turn in our solar system... But wtf is making it do a sharp turn BACK after making its 3000 or so year orbit?

NASA's orbit prediction doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
 Quoting: Virusfarm


IMAGES N DATA

[link to spaceobs.org]


[link to spaceobs.org]

[link to www.sott.net]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to gustavomuler.fotografiaastronomica.com]

[link to www.amication.de]

[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.flickr.com]

[link to 6888comete.free.fr]

[link to youtu.be]

* OR IN HD [link to youtu.be]

[link to gustavomuler.fotografiaastronomica.com]

[link to gustavomuler.fotografiaastronomica.com]

...

It's not that big by cometary standards, even in the size of its coma and tail, both of which are relatively low in density which is why they're not that bright despite being "large" by your standards. There are many pictures of it recorded by amateurs, however. Here's a few:

[link to www.amication.de]

[link to www.amication.de]

[link to www.aerith.net]

[link to www.aerith.net]

[link to www.aerith.net]

[link to www.aerith.net]

[link to 6888comete.free.fr]

 Quoting: Astronut


...

Oh, BTW, this one is the 'Goldmine';
[link to gustavomuler.fotografiaastronomica.com]
siren2
I'll give you one guess about what all those numbers are...
Hint, try punching them into the second search box here;
[link to ssd.jpl.nasa.gov]

spock
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1254186




[link to www.google.com]

[link to gustavomuler.fotografiaastronomica.com]

[link to translate.google.com]

"So, back to the existing snapshot. When approaching a confrontation, when the comet, the Earth and the Sun would be in line (ie, the angle C-C-W will be close to 180 °), the tail of a comet is almost hidden from the eyes of the terrestrial observer, because the tails of comets are directed away from the Sun. At the time of shooting, we saw the tail of the comet at an angle of only 2.75 °! 900 000 км! Adopting the length of the projection of the tail for 1 arc minute of arc and solving triangles we see that the actual length of the tail of a comet has exceeded 900 000 km!"

I like how not a single person talking about what Leonid OS said mentions this part, "It is possible that such a rapid growth of the coma is associated with the apparent superposition over it of the comet’s dust tail, which after opposition, still remains invisible to the Earthly observer." I suspect that's exactly what happened in this case. Gustavo Muler made an observation the same day and released this image - [link to gustavomuler.fotografiaastronomica.com]
Quite a difference between 60 arcseconds and 27.4116.

All you McCanney fans should listen to what he said on his last show April 7th. The important part starts around timemark 0:38:00 here - [link to www.jmccanneyscience.com] I'm going to listen to his Elenin special come Thursday...
 Quoting: TBar1984


...


NASA still giving no size of nucleus
as if they dont know !
 Quoting: highwic

form sister thread Thread: OMG: Incoming GIGANTIC OBJECT!!!
 Quoting: rphunter


THE NEXT POINT IS WHETHER IT WILL SPLIT AT OR BEFORE PERIHELION ON SEPTEMBER 10 THUS POSING AN ALTERED ORBIT , AND AN IMPACT DANGER TO EARTH . THE LATEST IMAGES SHOW TWO OBJECTS IN THE COMA[!] , IT MAY HAVE ALREADY SPLIT AS EVIDENCED BY THE LACK OF ANY NEW IMAGES...

Thread: The Planet X Plot Thickens LOTS OF IMAGES ..,ITS NOT A BROWN DWARF
!!!!!!!!!!
 Quoting: rphunter



THE LAST AND POSSIBLE MOST IMPORTANT POINT BASED OFF POINT ONE IS ,
" IF THIS COMET C2010X1 IS ORBITING BOTH THE SUN AND SOME UNKNOWN OBJECT ON A REGULAR BASIS, WHAT ELSE IS ALSO APPROACHING ON THIS ORBIT , WHAT SIZE IS IT, AND WHERE IS IT RIGHT NOW?"

THIS POINT SET INFERS THAT OUR SOLAR SYSTEM TECHNICALLY A BARYCENTERED BINARY SOLAR SYSTEM AND THAT PLANETS WITH MOONS, [POSSIBLY EXPLODED PLANET REMNANTS] CAN AND OR ARE TRAVELING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THESE TWO POINTS][ THIS IS THE PROVERBIAL CAN OF WORMS ]



THREAD FOR DISCUSSING CALCULATIONS FROM THE OBSERVATION OF COMET C2010 /X1 ELENIN ...

UP TILL NOW

WE HAVE SEEN THE COMET IMAGES YIELD THE FOLLOWING DATA .

NUCLEUS IN EXCESS OF 5 km WITH UPWARD LIMITS OF 500
POSSIBLE CO ORBITAL OBJECTS OR DUAL NUCLEUS IN LATEST IMAGES
TAIL LENGTH IS IN EXCESS OF 900,000 KM
COMA IS IN EXCESS OF 23,000 KM
TRAJECTORY WAS FIXED UNLESS THE COMET HAS ALREADY SPLIT ..

IF YOU POST
PLEASE EITHER HAVE A LINK TO A COMET IMAGE AND OR YUOR CALCULATIONS

A STATEMENT FROM A RESEARCHER OR ELENIN HIMSELF

AND IF YOU HAVE EVIDENCE = IMAGE AND CALCULATIONS PLUS POSITION OF ANY CO ORBITAL OBJECTS THEY WILL ALSO BE INCLUDED.


ok stop this thread . bye all
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1338855

Original Message ok hi all


i made some counts

d=diameter of object
L=distance earth-object
ç= angular diameter in degrees

d=2L(tan (ç/2))
[link to spaceobs.org]

ORIGINAL THREAD HERE

Thread: ELENIN SIZE ---------HUGE

ç=2 arcsec = 0,00055555 degree [link to www.convertunits.com]
L (on 3 january 03.40 am 2011 ) 545 000 000 km
d=(545 000 000) (tan 0,00055555) we must be accurate more possible as we can !!!

d=5284 km O.o

ok stop this thread .
bye all
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1338855

 Quoting: rphunter




COMPLETE BS..

ORBITS OF COMETS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ORBITS OF PLANETS>.. THEY ARE

FALLING AROUND THE SUN!!!

THEy're orbits are eliptical just as the solar system is..

MORONS abound!! I"M GIVING A BS to this..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1303637

what ????????????????? i want to know your theory ...
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 07:59 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
NO YOU ARE RIGHT ...THAT IS 29 P SOMEBODY POSTED IT AND I DIDN'T CHECK IT FIRST..

THEORY IS THIS .. IF THIS OBJECT IS BEING IMAGED PROPERLY .. [SEE THE EMAIL I SENT TO YOU] .. AND THEY HAVE STATED THEY SEE 2 OBJECTS WHEN THEY IMAGE ELENIN , THEN IT IS SPLIT OR IT IS PART OF A GROUP OF OBJECTS TRAVELING WITHIN ORBIT OF A LARGER OBJECT.. THAT LARGER OBJECT IS WHAT ELENIN IS REFERRING TO WITH HIS CRYPTIC POST ABOUT THE EARTH QUAKES .. C 2010 /X1 CANNOT CAUSE THEM , BUT IF IT IS A PRECURSOR TO A LARGER GROUP OF OBJECT THEIR COLLECTIVE MASS CAN..


OOPS OK
 Quoting: rphunter


but ...why they named it 29 /p '?



i didnt understund
 Quoting: rb26det


Last Edited by rphunter on 04/22/2011 08:10 PM
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rb26det

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04/22/2011 08:00 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
NO YOU ARE RIGHT ...THAT IS 29 P SOMEBODY POSTED IT AND I DIDN'T CHECK IT FIRST..


OOPS OK
 Quoting: rphunter


but ...why they named it 29 /p '?



i didnt understund
 Quoting: rb26det

 Quoting: rphunter


ok ;)
rb26det

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04/22/2011 08:01 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
NO YOU ARE RIGHT ...THAT IS 29 P SOMEBODY POSTED IT AND I DIDN'T CHECK IT FIRST..


OOPS OK
 Quoting: rphunter


but ...why they named it 29 /p '?



i didnt understund
 Quoting: rb26det

 Quoting: rphunter


ok ;)
 Quoting: rb26det


omg !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's 02:00 here in italy i must go to bed ....se u tomorrow my friend ...bye !!
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 08:04 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
OK WHEN YOU GET UP LOOK AT THIS THESE ARE ELENIN

[link to xa.yimg.com]
[link to xa.yimg.com]

not sure about this .. but look closely its still got a spepration
[link to xa.yimg.com]


NO YOU ARE RIGHT ...THAT IS 29 P SOMEBODY POSTED IT AND I DIDN'T CHECK IT FIRST..


...


but ...why they named it 29 /p '?



i didnt understund
 Quoting: rb26det

 Quoting: rphunter


ok ;)
 Quoting: rb26det


omg !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's 02:00 here in italy i must go to bed ....se u tomorrow my friend ...bye !!
 Quoting: rb26det


I'VE BEEN DOING 4 AM NIGHTLY HERE .. SEE YOU TOMORROW..

Last Edited by rphunter on 04/22/2011 08:17 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2011 08:16 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
to my dismay, it seems leonid elenin has shut DOOM all the way down...

[link to spaceobs.org]
 Quoting: bhudda


From the article you reference:

Alexander Firsov

Can you explain the relationship of the comet with the planet Nibiru? Or is it a myth?

This topic is now being widely discussed in the West; the virus has not yet gotten to us. Honestly, I do not fully grasp the topic of Nibiru, I have only general isolated information. As I understand it, the close approach of Nibiru to the Earth is supposed to happen in December 2012. My comet will pass by the Earth in October 2011. This disconnect doesn’t phase the Nibiru proponents, and they have rewritten the chronology. In December 2012 the comet will already be far from the Earth, beyond the orbit of Jupiter! Furthermore, Nibiru is a rather massive body; it is a planet. The diameter of the core of the comet is only several kilometers, which in no way approaches that of a planet, to say nothing of the fact that if Nibiru were the size of Jupiter, it would have been visible to the UNAIDED eye LONG AGO. But no one has seen it. Every massive body leaves behind it a “gravitational tail”. It influences other bodies. Celestial mechanics has been understood for a long time, and now we have been able achieve accuracy as never before. We send spacecraft to the edge of the Solar System, where, after many years, the spacecraft reach their goal! Thus traveled the Pioneers and the Voyagers. Now New Horizons also travels there. If Nibiru were nearby, we would have discovered it by its gravitational effect (by the way, that’s how, a tiny pinpoint, Neptune was discovered in the middle of the 19th century!). I continue, my comet is only a comet which will pass near the Earth. It has happened in the past; it will happen in the future. I suggest we simply enjoy the coming spectacle that is totally harmless to the Earth. To look at the beauty of the Cosmos around us…
lptl081

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04/22/2011 08:21 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
UPDATES WHEN THEY BECOME AVAILABLE
 Quoting: rphunter
jerkitjerkit
"Though I Fly Through the Valley of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil.
For I am at 80,000 Feet and Climbing." SR-71 operating base
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2011 08:33 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
"I suggest we simply enjoy the coming spectacle that is totally harmless to the Earth. To look at the beauty of the Cosmos around us…"

This right there tells me he's either fuggin clueless or part of the cover-up.
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 08:37 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
Maybe, but Russians are chess master types , they never go with their main argument until they are sure the issue is decided ..it does not really mesh with the EQ posts though

"I suggest we simply enjoy the coming spectacle that is totally harmless to the Earth. To look at the beauty of the Cosmos around us…"

This right there tells me he's either fuggin clueless or part of the cover-up.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1304181

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Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2011 08:52 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
Remember here on GLP Weatherbill kept posting a meteor was going to plunge into the ocean Sept 2010? Well, maybe he was a year off!

Look dude .. its is not about hating anyone [ I know there's allot of reasons].. I think this is serious enough to spend my time on it .. I hope you will too

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1351472 I hope it lands on the f*****g Whitehouse.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1351472 I repeat. I hope it lands on the f*****g Whitehouse.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1351471 ISRAEL TOO!!!

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1005775 this is rather amazing, but what exactly could the Russian discover REALLY know.

I mean, for Gods sake, he was using a rented telescope. How could he possibly have the expertise to conjecture on another unknown object heading this way?

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1338415 I keep seeing these elenin threads but never read what it's about. I assume it's some comet people think is gonna hit us but probably won't.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1005775 and why cant I vote on this thread?
 Quoting: rphunter
Anonymous Coward
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04/22/2011 08:54 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
So are we about to be slammed or what?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 649932


The potential is there.
He Might Be Right?

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04/22/2011 09:16 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
So are we about to be slammed or what?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 649932


The potential is there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1349590

oh man I sure hope you are kidding!...at 7.6 km in diameter this thing is a Planet KILLER!
rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 09:20 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
Yeah , i have talked with a guy named Alexander Julian before he was posting back in 05 i think that 29 /p SW was going to hit the earth .. people freaked out .. it didn't and he basically went under ground..

But tons of people wrote in with their visions of tsunami .. far to many .. I still wont discount them .. have experienced them my self

I will keep a close eye on this one .. I don't like how its not getting allot of imagery..everybody is playing the Nibiru card .. there is allot of evidence .. but I try to keep within observations .. some are there ..
Civilization Continuity - PROJECT REVELATION EVENT SEQUENCE: PROJECT GREAT DIVIDE PARTY
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rphunter (OP)

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04/22/2011 09:22 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
here is the low down .. its got another orbital node .. it has somewhere that points it back at the earth sun system .. our solar system, from deep space .. if you don't have the time to look at the book link i posted then you wont ever get it ..

as this comet approaches its closest approach to the sun , it's Perihelion [sept 10], this is the time when almost all comets disintegrate if they are going to ..

the nearer time gets to September 10 , as it starts its turn , it will have allot of stress .. if it then breaks up it will alter its orbit .. that's it .. watch it ..and we will all see.


So are we about to be slammed or what?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 649932


The potential is there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1349590

oh man I sure hope you are kidding!...at 7.6 km in diameter this thing is a Planet KILLER!
 Quoting: He Might Be Right?


Last Edited by rphunter on 04/23/2011 03:17 PM
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He Might Be Right?

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04/22/2011 09:33 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
here is the low down .. its got another orbital node .. it has somewhere that points it back at earth .. it is nearing Perihelion .. if you don't have the time to look at the book link i posted then you wont ever get it ..

when it starts its turn , it will have allot of stress .. if it them breaks up it will alter its orbit .. that's it .. watch it ..and we will all see.


So are we about to be slammed or what?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 649932


The potential is there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1349590

oh man I sure hope you are kidding!...at 7.6 km in diameter this thing is a Planet KILLER!
 Quoting: He Might Be Right?

 Quoting: rphunter

so this isn't a "keyhole type event" we are talking here, you seem to be more concerned of an actual split of the nucleus here?....and just to add further to the fire, what of this "fluff cloud" Nasa has said we are into?...seems to me we could be looking at added drag could we not?
Sammie

User ID: 1256469
United States
04/22/2011 09:39 PM

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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
damn check out the projection for 10-26-11

[link to neo.jpl.nasa.gov]

that is way too close for comfort
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rphunter (OP)

User ID: 1283936
United States
04/22/2011 09:40 PM
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Re: ELENIN SIZE ---2-----HUGE [MAY 21 UPDATE !!!!!]
I haven't heard about any fluff cloud .. but NASA has blown any credibility with me ..and its not an event until it splits up .. alters its orbit .. that is a matter for observation ..
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