SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1379771 United States 05/15/2011 04:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? The heart of a transformer is the iron core which has a high magnetic permeability and uses the magnetic flux generated by the high voltage windings to induce a low voltage in the other set of windings. If there were spatially isolated and temporally transient fluctuations occurring in the geomagnetic field (or some extraterrestrial magnetic field) transformers would be the first place this would be expected to manifest itself. The iron cores have such a high magnetic permeability that the field generated within the volume of the core could be drastically changed by magnetic fields of relatively modest strength. The variation of the magnetic field within the core would influence the input and output voltages in the transformer. If the effect were large enough you might see overloading of the transformer which would cause it to fail. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372This. |
Life and Love User ID: 1324426 United States 05/15/2011 05:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? The heart of a transformer is the iron core which has a high magnetic permeability and uses the magnetic flux generated by the high voltage windings to induce a low voltage in the other set of windings. If there were spatially isolated and temporally transient fluctuations occurring in the geomagnetic field (or some extraterrestrial magnetic field) transformers would be the first place this would be expected to manifest itself. The iron cores have such a high magnetic permeability that the field generated within the volume of the core could be drastically changed by magnetic fields of relatively modest strength. The variation of the magnetic field within the core would influence the input and output voltages in the transformer. If the effect were large enough you might see overloading of the transformer which would cause it to fail. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372This. Errr.... no. A transformer is designed to contain the magnetic fields, else it would be highly inefficient. While a current applied to one of the transformer's windings can be amplified, the total power cannot. Moreover, and external (to the transformer) magnetic field would have little effect on what's happening in the transformer iself. We become like that to which we are devoted. - Choose wisely. |
scrimmy User ID: 1384877 United States 05/15/2011 05:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? i live in Fl. , lastnight i witnessed several transformers glowing at around 9pm. me and my family did not hear any explosions. Last Edited by scrimmy on 05/15/2011 05:05 PM |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1379771 United States 05/15/2011 05:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? The heart of a transformer is the iron core which has a high magnetic permeability and uses the magnetic flux generated by the high voltage windings to induce a low voltage in the other set of windings. If there were spatially isolated and temporally transient fluctuations occurring in the geomagnetic field (or some extraterrestrial magnetic field) transformers would be the first place this would be expected to manifest itself. The iron cores have such a high magnetic permeability that the field generated within the volume of the core could be drastically changed by magnetic fields of relatively modest strength. The variation of the magnetic field within the core would influence the input and output voltages in the transformer. If the effect were large enough you might see overloading of the transformer which would cause it to fail. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372This. Errr.... no. A transformer is designed to contain the magnetic fields, else it would be highly inefficient. While a current applied to one of the transformer's windings can be amplified, the total power cannot. Moreover, and external (to the transformer) magnetic field would have little effect on what's happening in the transformer iself. Oh. Okay. I am now a little more educated on the subject. Do you have any ideas to explain these extraordinary failures? |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 1382372 India 05/15/2011 05:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? The heart of a transformer is the iron core which has a high magnetic permeability and uses the magnetic flux generated by the high voltage windings to induce a low voltage in the other set of windings. If there were spatially isolated and temporally transient fluctuations occurring in the geomagnetic field (or some extraterrestrial magnetic field) transformers would be the first place this would be expected to manifest itself. The iron cores have such a high magnetic permeability that the field generated within the volume of the core could be drastically changed by magnetic fields of relatively modest strength. The variation of the magnetic field within the core would influence the input and output voltages in the transformer. If the effect were large enough you might see overloading of the transformer which would cause it to fail. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372This. Errr.... no. A transformer is designed to contain the magnetic fields, else it would be highly inefficient. While a current applied to one of the transformer's windings can be amplified, the total power cannot. Moreover, and external (to the transformer) magnetic field would have little effect on what's happening in the transformer iself. This is utter trash. The entire reason a transformer works is that the magnetic field applied by the high voltage windings, H, is amplified inside the iron core producing a field of strength B. B = uH where u is the magnetic permeability of the iron core Any magnetic field whatsoever that encounters the iron core will follow this same equation, becoming amplified within the material itself. |
Life and Love User ID: 1324426 United States 05/15/2011 05:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? The heart of a transformer is the iron core which has a high magnetic permeability and uses the magnetic flux generated by the high voltage windings to induce a low voltage in the other set of windings. If there were spatially isolated and temporally transient fluctuations occurring in the geomagnetic field (or some extraterrestrial magnetic field) transformers would be the first place this would be expected to manifest itself. The iron cores have such a high magnetic permeability that the field generated within the volume of the core could be drastically changed by magnetic fields of relatively modest strength. The variation of the magnetic field within the core would influence the input and output voltages in the transformer. If the effect were large enough you might see overloading of the transformer which would cause it to fail. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372This. Errr.... no. A transformer is designed to contain the magnetic fields, else it would be highly inefficient. While a current applied to one of the transformer's windings can be amplified, the total power cannot. Moreover, and external (to the transformer) magnetic field would have little effect on what's happening in the transformer iself. Oh. Okay. I am now a little more educated on the subject. Do you have any ideas to explain these extraordinary failures? Electrical transmission isn't my specialty (electromagnetics is), but the first step would be to look at failure rates vs. time. Using the word "extraordinary" may not be justified. In the last 10 years there have been two transformer failures in my neighborhood, both of which came on suddenly. I have no idea what is normal and what is not normal. In the article you cited, it looks as if there were 20-25 failures per year during the years 1995-2001. The article predicts many more failures in the years to come due to the aging of the "transformer fleet." Apparently, that is happening. Figure 6 in the article predicts that the number of failures in 2011 will be about 2.5x the number of failures in 1999, so the 20-25 failures per year in the 1995-2000 time period could translate into 40-50 (2x) or 50-62 (2.5x) today. We become like that to which we are devoted. - Choose wisely. |
Life and Love User ID: 1324426 United States 05/15/2011 05:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? The heart of a transformer is the iron core which has a high magnetic permeability and uses the magnetic flux generated by the high voltage windings to induce a low voltage in the other set of windings. If there were spatially isolated and temporally transient fluctuations occurring in the geomagnetic field (or some extraterrestrial magnetic field) transformers would be the first place this would be expected to manifest itself. The iron cores have such a high magnetic permeability that the field generated within the volume of the core could be drastically changed by magnetic fields of relatively modest strength. The variation of the magnetic field within the core would influence the input and output voltages in the transformer. If the effect were large enough you might see overloading of the transformer which would cause it to fail. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372This. Errr.... no. A transformer is designed to contain the magnetic fields, else it would be highly inefficient. While a current applied to one of the transformer's windings can be amplified, the total power cannot. Moreover, and external (to the transformer) magnetic field would have little effect on what's happening in the transformer iself. This is utter trash. The entire reason a transformer works is that the magnetic field applied by the high voltage windings, H, is amplified inside the iron core producing a field of strength B. B = uH where u is the magnetic permeability of the iron core Any magnetic field whatsoever that encounters the iron core will follow this same equation, becoming amplified within the material itself. OP leaves out a lot of stuff, so his conclusions are faulty. Perhaps I should return my PhD in Electromagnetic Theory, forget my 35 years of experience, and sell mymulti-million dollar business in EM consulting. We become like that to which we are devoted. - Choose wisely. |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 1382372 India 05/15/2011 05:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? ... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1379771This. Errr.... no. A transformer is designed to contain the magnetic fields, else it would be highly inefficient. While a current applied to one of the transformer's windings can be amplified, the total power cannot. Moreover, and external (to the transformer) magnetic field would have little effect on what's happening in the transformer iself. This is utter trash. The entire reason a transformer works is that the magnetic field applied by the high voltage windings, H, is amplified inside the iron core producing a field of strength B. B = uH where u is the magnetic permeability of the iron core Any magnetic field whatsoever that encounters the iron core will follow this same equation, becoming amplified within the material itself. OP leaves out a lot of stuff, so his conclusions are faulty. Perhaps I should return my PhD in Electromagnetic Theory, forget my 35 years of experience, and sell mymulti-million dollar business in EM consulting. Please explain how I am in wrong in saying that an iron core placed in a magnetic field will produce a field inside that iron core proportional to the applied field? |
Life and Love User ID: 1324426 United States 05/15/2011 05:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? Please explain how I am in wrong in saying that an iron core placed in a magnetic field will produce a field inside that iron core proportional to the applied field? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372I shall be happy to. 1. The reason that a transformer works is due to magnetic flux. A current flows in one winding and thereby creates a magnetic flux whose field line orientation is perpendicular to the winding. A second winding intercepts that flux, which induces a current into that second winding. The ratio of current in to current out is related to the ratio of the number of turns in each winding. 2. The reason that a transformer is efficient is that a permeable material is inserted where the flux lines couple between the windings. This confines the majority of the magnetic flux to the interior of the material, so that the amount that gets coupled to the second winding is maximized. 3. The permeable material in electrical transmission transformers is made up of insulated laminates (to reduce what are called 'eddy currents' - another form of loss an inefficiency) and are shaped in a closed path to keep the magnetic flux confined. 4. Since a transformer is a passive device, if the windings are such that the voltage is stepped up, e.g., 10:1, then the corresponding currents are steeped down, e.g., 1:10. 5. The same mechanism that confines the transformer's own magnetic flux (highly permeable material) also makes it extremely difficult for an external magnetic field to couple into the transformer windings in the same way. 6. An external field is much more likely to couple into the transmission line itself, e.g., from a CME or EMP event, and that externally generated current could overload a transformer, break down dielectrics, etc. 7. And yes, B = uH, but H = B/u, too. From outside the transformer it's basically a wash. Hope this helps. (That pblgobal article isn't a bad one... seems to be an advocacy piece for gov'ts to buy replacement transformers and have them installed.) We become like that to which we are devoted. - Choose wisely. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1384912 United States 05/15/2011 05:32 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1379771 United States 05/15/2011 05:57 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? The poster Love and Life has just poured cold common sense all over my fringe fantasies. Thanks for that, I guess. I mean that, sincerely. Thank you. It is fun to imagine sci-fi reasons for why things change, but I also very much appreciate explanations from the real world. What are you doing on this forum, anyway? Are you on some kind of mission to straighten out the lunatics? Did you have any explanation for Trinity's little anomaly?: [link to www.godlikeproductions.com] What is your take on the popularity of the "electric universe"? Plasma physics? |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 1382372 India 05/15/2011 06:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? Please explain how I am in wrong in saying that an iron core placed in a magnetic field will produce a field inside that iron core proportional to the applied field? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1382372I shall be happy to. 1. The reason that a transformer works is due to magnetic flux. A current flows in one winding and thereby creates a magnetic flux whose field line orientation is perpendicular to the winding. A second winding intercepts that flux, which induces a current into that second winding. The ratio of current in to current out is related to the ratio of the number of turns in each winding. 2. The reason that a transformer is efficient is that a permeable material is inserted where the flux lines couple between the windings. This confines the majority of the magnetic flux to the interior of the material, so that the amount that gets coupled to the second winding is maximized. 3. The permeable material in electrical transmission transformers is made up of insulated laminates (to reduce what are called 'eddy currents' - another form of loss an inefficiency) and are shaped in a closed path to keep the magnetic flux confined. 4. Since a transformer is a passive device, if the windings are such that the voltage is stepped up, e.g., 10:1, then the corresponding currents are steeped down, e.g., 1:10. 5. The same mechanism that confines the transformer's own magnetic flux (highly permeable material) also makes it extremely difficult for an external magnetic field to couple into the transformer windings in the same way. 6. An external field is much more likely to couple into the transmission line itself, e.g., from a CME or EMP event, and that externally generated current could overload a transformer, break down dielectrics, etc. 7. And yes, B = uH, but H = B/u, too. From outside the transformer it's basically a wash. Hope this helps. (That pblgobal article isn't a bad one... seems to be an advocacy piece for gov'ts to buy replacement transformers and have them installed.) You obviously have more knowledge of transformers than I do...however, I would just like to point out that external magnetic fields can and do have real effects on transformers. Please see: [link to spie.org] "Simulation of voltage transformer operation in the external magnetic fields (Proceedings Paper)" This does not in any way validate the hypothesis I presented. But it seems at least conceivable to me that it might be a possibility. Thanks for your insight. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1383040 United States 05/15/2011 06:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: SPECULATION: Could temporally transient and spatially isolated magnetic field fluctuations be causing the transformer failures? Yes, it has happened before, but never at a point when we have so many power lines etc... last time was 130 or so years ago. Telegraphs lines were shocking people, even when not plugged in. Google it, you'll see... There have been plenty of times since we have the gird, that they have gone down due to solar flairs... |
hoot no more/hasheater User ID: 1385015 United Kingdom 05/15/2011 07:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |