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# MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1397988
Germany
05/24/2011 10:04 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I see that you can't provide a link to the supposed study by MIT on their own website? LOL
Quoting: sling

Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

If they are one in one hundred, one in a thousand or one in one million, what is the difference, it is humanly impossible to do what Jesus did!

You are an atheist and will go to any lengths to prove you are right in your beliefs. This is the game you are playing.

Can you NOT READ? (previously posted above, duh!)

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398167
Norway
05/24/2011 10:04 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I see that you can't provide a link to the supposed study by MIT on their own website? LOL
Quoting: sling

Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

If they are one in one hundred, one in a thousand or one in one million, what is the difference, it is humanly impossible to do what Jesus did!

You are an atheist and will go to any lengths to prove you are right in your beliefs. This is the game you are playing.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1237121

Odds and probability are misdirections. They assume that we live in a probabilistic universe where things happen by random chance. This assumption is not necessarily correct. The other assumption is that there is a plan and everything happens according to the plan. We humans are limited in our view of space/time. We see only the ever-present present as we flow into it, and speculate about the future as if it has not happened. It only has not happened according to our view. All that will happen in the future to our view is already written into the fabric of the universe by God's plan. There is no free will or free choice other than in our perceptions that we are making them.

It's funny how the majority of the world has adopted empiricism as their philosophy. They think we are able to discern everything with our brains, and that what we see with our eyes is all there is. They can't comprehend the idea that we are confined, but God is not. Empiricism has rarely been taken seriously as a world view by philosophers and has been rejected by the most important schools of thought, yet every atheist out there clings to this extremely narrow minded view of the universe.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398280
United States
05/24/2011 10:06 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I see that you can't provide a link to the supposed study by MIT on their own website? LOL
Quoting: sling

Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

If they are one in one hundred, one in a thousand or one in one million, what is the difference, it is humanly impossible to do what Jesus did!

You are an atheist and will go to any lengths to prove you are right in your beliefs. This is the game you are playing.

I am not an atheist, lol. Nice try. The odds are a scam because JESUS NEVER EXISTED.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398167
Norway
05/24/2011 10:06 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I see that you can't provide a link to the supposed study by MIT on their own website? LOL
Quoting: sling

Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

If they are one in one hundred, one in a thousand or one in one million, what is the difference, it is humanly impossible to do what Jesus did!

You are an atheist and will go to any lengths to prove you are right in your beliefs. This is the game you are playing.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1237121

Odds and probability are misdirections. They assume that we live in a probabilistic universe where things happen by random chance. This assumption is not necessarily correct. The other assumption is that there is a plan and everything happens according to the plan. We humans are limited in our view of space/time. We see only the ever-present present as we flow into it, and speculate about the future as if it has not happened. It only has not happened according to our view. All that will happen in the future to our view is already written into the fabric of the universe by God's plan. There is no free will or free choice other than in our perceptions that we are making them.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1398167

It's funny how the majority of the world has adopted empiricism as their philosophy. They think we are able to discern everything with our brains, and that what we see with our eyes is all there is. They can't comprehend the idea that we are confined, but God is not. Empiricism has rarely been taken seriously as a world view by philosophers and has been rejected by the most important schools of thought, yet every atheist out there clings to this extremely narrow minded view of the universe.

Something went wrong with the quotations, sorry about that.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1397988
Germany
05/24/2011 10:07 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I see that you can't provide a link to the supposed study by MIT on their own website? LOL
Quoting: sling

Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

If they are one in one hundred, one in a thousand or one in one million, what is the difference, it is humanly impossible to do what Jesus did!

You are an atheist and will go to any lengths to prove you are right in your beliefs. This is the game you are playing.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1397879
Slovenia
05/24/2011 10:09 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?.
Quoting: sling

The odds you presented were most probably calculated on the funny farm, but definitely not on the MIT.

I ate half of the Universe; take my statement as a fact, and calculate odds of me being a supernatural being. WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

***

As hard as the most aggressive Atheists try to mock Christianity, they can’t beat Xtards at it.

*
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398280
United States
05/24/2011 10:11 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Can you NOT READ? (previously posted above, duh!)

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397988

HAHAHAHA, what a fucking failure you are. The guy that wrote the book is Peter W. Stoner. Then you provide a link to a guy named Peter H. Stone that works at MIT. Nice try douche bag.

Did you even look to see who Peter W. Stoner is? It says it in his book.

PETER W. STONER, M.S.
Chairman of the Departments of Mathematics and Astronomy at Pasadena City College
until 1953; Chairman of the science division, Westmont College, 1953-57; Professor
Emeritus of Science, Westmont College; Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and

LOL, wow... you christards will stop at nothing.
Legba

User ID: 913903
United States
05/24/2011 10:14 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Walk on water just once!

Feed 5000 from a few loaves, just once!

Do you really expect anyone in their right mind, to pay any attention to your blasphemy of Almighty God, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Where is your claim to fame? Whats that? You don't have one?

Oh I see then..................
Quoting: sling

I have breathed life back into the dead many times.
Turned water into wine.
And walked on water (ice).

Not Blasphemy, just the truth.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1397988
Germany
05/24/2011 10:15 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
...

That's an internet garbage written by Jerry Ballard
from "Fisher's Of Men Group" without a link to the source.

Can you find the alleged study on the MIT's official site [link to web.mit.edu] please?
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397879

No of course he can't. It doesn't matter anyway because JESUS NEVER EXISTED. It's easy to make one fiction line up with another fiction's "prophecies".
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1398280

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy
The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to just eight prophecies, " we find that the chance that any man might have lived at that present time and fulfilled just eight of the 300 prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 100,000,000,000,000,000 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas.

They will cover all of the state two feet deep. "Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing only these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

This information regarding Peter Stoner was taken from the book
Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.

And as for the idiotic "Jesus never existed" claim, find me 1 accredited, reputable Historian that will agree with that. You can't, because none exist!

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397988

Find me one reputable historian that will agree that he did exist? And I mean, specifically talking about Jesus. Not some off-hand reference to "the christ". *cough* Josephus *cough*

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1398280

That's it? Your gonna link to Humphrey who mostly uses this page to make a repeated "argument from silence" claiming that Nazareth did not exist in Jesus' day.  As I mentioned earlier, his own sources disagree with him on this.  Again, I offer this: "...archeology indicates that the village [Nazareth] has been occupied since the 7th century B.C., although it may have experienced a 'refounding' in the 2d century b.c. " (John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew--Rethinking the Historical Jesus, (vol 1), p.300-301), Doubleday, 1991.  Meier is a Jewish non-Christian archeologist who Humphreys lists as a source on several of his pages.  And this page: [link to www.nazareth2000.gov.il] is more specific about the evidence, saying Nazareth was founded between 600-900 B.C. and has been consistently inhabited since about 200 B.C.

He claims on his site that, "'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky."

Actually, there are several that mention Him.  Notice that Humphreys doesn't give a time frame in which "not a single non-Christian source mentions" Him (and as an aside, where does he get the "from the sky" bit?).  The further we get from the 1st century, the more non-Christian sources do mention Jesus.  We have Josephus and Tacitus writing about Jesus in the early 2nd century, and many more as we move into the 3rd and 4th.

Another claim, "All references – including the notorious insertions in Josephus – stem from partisan Christian sources."

Of course, Humphreys ignored Josephus' mention of Jesus in Antiquities 20.9.1, which no one claims stemmed from Christian sources, and only argues against Antiquities 18.3.3, which is the one in doubt.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1237121
05/24/2011 10:16 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
It's funny how the majority of the world has adopted empiricism as their philosophy. They think we are able to discern everything with our brains, and that what we see with our eyes is all there is. They can't comprehend the idea that we are confined, but God is not. Empiricism has rarely been taken seriously as a world view by philosophers and has been rejected by the most important schools of thought, yet every atheist out there clings to this extremely narrow minded view of the universe.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1398167

Human beings think the limited purview of their minds is all there is. They cannot conceive of greater, so do not try to postulate it. Empiricism limits peoples understanding to what is real, here and now, and it is a useful tool for scientific inquiry and technological building. It does not work for that which cannot be directly seen. We are provided with a "minds eye" in which we can see more than the 3 dimensional space around us. What the atheist does not do is to use that faculty to explore the larger possibilities.

Even the idea that God is not confined, is difficult to the mind that is trapped in 3 dimensions and moving only one way through a fourth. We need to set limits, because the box in our heads is limited. What we have is a situation where we limit the possibilities to the box we have to put them in, instead of seeing that box as being contained in a universe of possibilities.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398280
United States
05/24/2011 10:17 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
That's it? Your gonna link to Humphrey who mostly uses this page to make a repeated "argument from silence" claiming that Nazareth did not exist in Jesus' day.  As I mentioned earlier, his own sources disagree with him on this.  Again, I offer this: "...archeology indicates that the village [Nazareth] has been occupied since the 7th century B.C., although it may have experienced a 'refounding' in the 2d century b.c. " (John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew--Rethinking the Historical Jesus, (vol 1), p.300-301), Doubleday, 1991.  Meier is a Jewish non-Christian archeologist who Humphreys lists as a source on several of his pages.  And this page: [link to www.nazareth2000.gov.il] is more specific about the evidence, saying Nazareth was founded between 600-900 B.C. and has been consistently inhabited since about 200 B.C.

He claims on his site that, "'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky."

Actually, there are several that mention Him.  Notice that Humphreys doesn't give a time frame in which "not a single non-Christian source mentions" Him (and as an aside, where does he get the "from the sky" bit?).  The further we get from the 1st century, the more non-Christian sources do mention Jesus.  We have Josephus and Tacitus writing about Jesus in the early 2nd century, and many more as we move into the 3rd and 4th.

Another claim, "All references – including the notorious insertions in Josephus – stem from partisan Christian sources."

Of course, Humphreys ignored Josephus' mention of Jesus in Antiquities 20.9.1, which no one claims stemmed from Christian sources, and only argues against Antiquities 18.3.3, which is the one in doubt.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397988

Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

Consider, also, the anomalies:

1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?
The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.

3. The question of context.

Antiquities 18 is primarily concerned with "all sorts of misfortunes" which befell the Jews during a period of thirty-two years (4-36 AD).

Josephus begins with the unpopular taxation introduced by the Roman Governor Cyrenius in 6 AD. He presents a synopsis of the three established Jewish parties (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes), but his real quarry is the "fourth sect of philosophy ... which laid the foundation of our future miseries." That was the sect of Judas the Galilean, "which before we were unacquainted withal."

At the very point we might expect a mention of "Christians" (if any such sect existed) we have instead castigation of tax rebels!

"It was in Gessius Florus's time [64-66] that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and made them revolt from the Romans; and these are the sects of Jewish philosophy."

"Nor can fear of death make them call any man Lord." Sound a tad familiar?

Chapter 2 notes the cities built to honour the Romans; the frequent changes in high priest (up to Caiaphas) and Roman procurators (up to Pontius Pilate); and also the turmoil in Parthia.

Chapter 3, containing the Testimonium as paragraph three, is essentially about Pilate's attempts to bring Jerusalem into the Roman system. With his first policy – placing Caesar's ensigns in Jerusalem – Pilate was forced to back down by unexpected Jewish protests in Caesarea. With his second policy – providing Jerusalem with a new aqueduct built with funds sequestered from the Temple, Pilate made ready for Jewish protests. Concealed weapons on his soldiers caused much bloodshed.

At this point the paragraph about Jesus is introduced!

Immediately after, Josephus continues:

"And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews ..."

There is no way that Josephus, who remained an orthodox Jew all his life and defended Judaism vociferously against Greek critics, would have thought that the execution of a messianic claimant was "another terrible misfortune" for the Jews. This is the hand of a Christian writer who himself considered the death of Jesus to be a Jewish tragedy (fitting in with his own notions of a stiff-necked race, rejected by God because they themselves had rejected the Son of God).

With paragraph 3 removed from the text the chapter, in fact, reads better. The "aqueduct massacre" now justifies "another terrible misfortune."

4. The final assertion, that the Christians were "not extinct at this day," confirms that the so-called Testimonium is a later interpolation. How much later we cannot say but there was no "tribe of Christians" during Josephus' lifetime. Christianity under that moniker did not establish itself until the 2nd century. Outside of this single bogus paragraph, in all the extensive histories of Josephus there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere.

5. The hyperbolic language is uncharacteristic of the historian:

"... as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him."

This is the stuff of Christian propaganda.

REALITY CHECK

In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine.

Bishop Eusebius, that great Church propagandist and self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD. This was after the Christians had become the custodians of religious correctness.

Whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.

Do we need to look any further to identify Eusebius himself as the forger?

Sanctioned by the imperial propagandist every Christian commentator for the next thirteen centuries accepted unquestioningly the entire Testimonium Flavianum, along with its declaration that Jesus “was the Messiah.”

And even in the twenty first century scholars who should know better trot out a truncated version of the 'golden paragraph' in a scurrilous attempt to keep Josephus 'on message.'
mesenger337
User ID: 1335909
Australia
05/24/2011 10:20 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
A recent Harvard study has showed that the rate of human brain activity is accelerating and shows a critical point will be reached in 2012!

studies show that around the when the IQ standardization of 100 equals 125 at the time of previous conscious revolution(1960s) then a new one begins. this rate is exponential.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398280
United States
05/24/2011 10:21 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Thread has gotten a little off topic, but until someone shows a link ON THE MIT WEBSITE to this supposed study, it's safe to say this thread subject has been debunked.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1025539
United States
05/24/2011 10:49 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Did you ever think if it was so impossible, that maybe it didnt happen? maybe just maybe someone made up the story?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398248
Italy
05/24/2011 10:58 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
So does Jesus, who is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, need to use any evil vermin who are otherwise known as the greys/reptiles, insectoids, annunaki, fallen angels, pleidians or any any other off world miscreants/fallen angels etc, to create crop circles, and prepare humans for ascension, and to help Him bring His Kingdom into the earth?

I don't think so!

Wake up folks, you are being had by Crop Circles and New Age channeled Mumbo Jumbo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The purpose of Crop Circles is to deceive the gullible. The Reptiles are are here to serve you alright,...for dinner that is!
Quoting: sling

yep you are right ...they just need the new NWO authorized Blue Beam projector they set on orbit the 21 after the Pope casted his sign of evil on it
Legba

User ID: 913903
United States
05/24/2011 12:10 PM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Walk on water just once!

Feed 5000 from a few loaves, just once!

Do you really expect anyone in their right mind, to pay any attention to your blasphemy of Almighty God, Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Where is your claim to fame? Whats that? You don't have one?

Oh I see then..................
Quoting: sling

I have breathed life back into the dead many times.
Turned water into wine.
And walked on water (ice).

Not Blasphemy, just the truth.
Quoting: Legba
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1397988
Germany
05/24/2011 01:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
That's it? Your gonna link to Humphrey who mostly uses this page to make a repeated "argument from silence" claiming that Nazareth did not exist in Jesus' day.  As I mentioned earlier, his own sources disagree with him on this.  Again, I offer this: "...archeology indicates that the village [Nazareth] has been occupied since the 7th century B.C., although it may have experienced a 'refounding' in the 2d century b.c. " (John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew--Rethinking the Historical Jesus, (vol 1), p.300-301), Doubleday, 1991.  Meier is a Jewish non-Christian archeologist who Humphreys lists as a source on several of his pages.  And this page: [link to www.nazareth2000.gov.il] is more specific about the evidence, saying Nazareth was founded between 600-900 B.C. and has been consistently inhabited since about 200 B.C.

He claims on his site that, "'Jesus of Nazareth' supposedly lived in what is the most well-documented period of antiquity – the first century of the Christian era – yet not a single non-Christian source mentions the miracle worker from the sky."

Actually, there are several that mention Him.  Notice that Humphreys doesn't give a time frame in which "not a single non-Christian source mentions" Him (and as an aside, where does he get the "from the sky" bit?).  The further we get from the 1st century, the more non-Christian sources do mention Jesus.  We have Josephus and Tacitus writing about Jesus in the early 2nd century, and many more as we move into the 3rd and 4th.

Another claim, "All references – including the notorious insertions in Josephus – stem from partisan Christian sources."

Of course, Humphreys ignored Josephus' mention of Jesus in Antiquities 20.9.1, which no one claims stemmed from Christian sources, and only argues against Antiquities 18.3.3, which is the one in doubt.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397988

Flavius Josephus is a highly respected and much-quoted Romano-Jewish historian. The early Christians were zealous readers of his work.

A native of Judea, living in the 1st century AD, Josephus was actually governor of Galilee for a time (prior to the war of 70 AD) – the very province in which Jesus allegedly did his wonders. Though not born until 37 AD and therefore not a contemporary witness to any Jesus-character, Josephus at one point even lived in Cana, the very city in which Christ is said to have wrought his first miracle.

Josephus's two major tomes are History of The Jewish War and The Antiquities of the Jews. In these complementary works, the former written in the 70s, the latter in the 90s AD, Josephus mentions every noted personage of Palestine and describes every important event which occurred there during the first seventy years of the Christian era.

At face value, Josephus appears to be the answer to the Christian apologist's dreams.

In a single paragraph (the so-called Testimonium Flavianum) Josephus confirms every salient aspect of the Christ-myth:

1. Jesus's existence 2. his 'more than human' status 3. his miracle working 4. his teaching 5. his ministry among the Jews and the Gentiles 6. his Messiahship 7. his condemnation by the Jewish priests 8. his sentence by Pilate 9. his death on the cross 10. the devotion of his followers 11. his resurrection on the 3rd day 12. his post-death appearance 13. his fulfillment of divine prophecy 14. the successful continuance of the Christians.

In just 127 words Josephus confirms everything – now that is a miracle!

BUT WAIT A MINUTE ...

Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.

The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."

Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.

It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.

Consider, also, the anomalies:

1. How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?
The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

2. If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.

It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing that is not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.

3. The question of context.

Antiquities 18 is primarily concerned with "all sorts of misfortunes" which befell the Jews during a period of thirty-two years (4-36 AD).

Josephus begins with the unpopular taxation introduced by the Roman Governor Cyrenius in 6 AD. He presents a synopsis of the three established Jewish parties (Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes), but his real quarry is the "fourth sect of philosophy ... which laid the foundation of our future miseries." That was the sect of Judas the Galilean, "which before we were unacquainted withal."

At the very point we might expect a mention of "Christians" (if any such sect existed) we have instead castigation of tax rebels!

"It was in Gessius Florus's time [64-66] that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and made them revolt from the Romans; and these are the sects of Jewish philosophy."

"Nor can fear of death make them call any man Lord." Sound a tad familiar?

Chapter 2 notes the cities built to honour the Romans; the frequent changes in high priest (up to Caiaphas) and Roman procurators (up to Pontius Pilate); and also the turmoil in Parthia.

Chapter 3, containing the Testimonium as paragraph three, is essentially about Pilate's attempts to bring Jerusalem into the Roman system. With his first policy – placing Caesar's ensigns in Jerusalem – Pilate was forced to back down by unexpected Jewish protests in Caesarea. With his second policy – providing Jerusalem with a new aqueduct built with funds sequestered from the Temple, Pilate made ready for Jewish protests. Concealed weapons on his soldiers caused much bloodshed.

At this point the paragraph about Jesus is introduced!

Immediately after, Josephus continues:

"And about the same time another terrible misfortune confounded the Jews ..."

There is no way that Josephus, who remained an orthodox Jew all his life and defended Judaism vociferously against Greek critics, would have thought that the execution of a messianic claimant was "another terrible misfortune" for the Jews. This is the hand of a Christian writer who himself considered the death of Jesus to be a Jewish tragedy (fitting in with his own notions of a stiff-necked race, rejected by God because they themselves had rejected the Son of God).

With paragraph 3 removed from the text the chapter, in fact, reads better. The "aqueduct massacre" now justifies "another terrible misfortune."

4. The final assertion, that the Christians were "not extinct at this day," confirms that the so-called Testimonium is a later interpolation. How much later we cannot say but there was no "tribe of Christians" during Josephus' lifetime. Christianity under that moniker did not establish itself until the 2nd century. Outside of this single bogus paragraph, in all the extensive histories of Josephus there is not a single reference to Christianity anywhere.

5. The hyperbolic language is uncharacteristic of the historian:

"... as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him."

This is the stuff of Christian propaganda.

REALITY CHECK

In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine.

Bishop Eusebius, that great Church propagandist and self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD. This was after the Christians had become the custodians of religious correctness.

Whole libraries of antiquity were torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.

Do we need to look any further to identify Eusebius himself as the forger?

Sanctioned by the imperial propagandist every Christian commentator for the next thirteen centuries accepted unquestioningly the entire Testimonium Flavianum, along with its declaration that Jesus “was the Messiah.”

And even in the twenty first century scholars who should know better trot out a truncated version of the 'golden paragraph' in a scurrilous attempt to keep Josephus 'on message.'
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1398280

Josephus did wrote of the martyrdom of James (Jesus' brother) in Antiquities 20.9.1.  And other writers such as Tacitus (a non-Christian) wrote of the persecution under Nero.  Few reasonable scholars refuse to believe that Nero hated and persecuted Christians.

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1397988
Germany
05/24/2011 01:41 PM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
These things Humphreys describes(on his site) are the kinds of deceit that I've frequently seen Christ-mythers employ.

They create deities that never existed, such as Beddru, Bremrillah, Crite, Gentaut, Ischy, and others and claim Jesus copied from them, a belief which becomes added to the beliefs of later generations of Christ-mythers.

They also make up things like Horus being crucified or Krishna raising the dead, which other Christ-mythers repeat not knowing that these are not parts of the given mythology.

They also "clarify" obscure points by, for example, saying that any deity with a miraculous conception is "born of a virgin", even if the mother is not a virgin, or saying that Zoroaster was "baptized in a river" when he only received a revelation while on the banks of a river.

Rather than be honest and admit that such parallels are vague, they "clarify" the vagueness by saying they were "born of a virgin" or "baptized in a river", suggesting a much stronger parallel than what is true.

They "invent scenarios that could have happened" by automatically giving any deity whose birthdate is unknown a birthdate of December 25th, or, as one Christ-myther recently did in a letter to me, claim that because the Egyptians don't specifically say that Isis and Osiris had sex (despite being married), Isis was probably a virgin when Horus was conceived.  Do the Christ-mythers have "real reasons for lies, inventions and counterfeits"?

Yes, many will employ any means, however dishonest, to try to convince Christians that "Jesus never existed".
sling (OP)

User ID: 369281
05/24/2011 11:09 PM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I see that you can't provide a link to the supposed study by MIT on their own website? LOL
Quoting: sling

Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

If they are one in one hundred, one in a thousand or one in one million, what is the difference, it is humanly impossible to do what Jesus did!

You are an atheist and will go to any lengths to prove you are right in your beliefs. This is the game you are playing.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397988

sling (OP)

User ID: 369281
05/25/2011 09:01 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Some Christians have a severe tendency to confuse "believing" with "knowing". They think these two concepts are interchangeable, when they are not.

*
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397879

New age bunk......................
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1389189
Germany
05/25/2011 09:09 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!

Biggest load of bullshit since truthtards tried to turn an american nutjob into an israeli scientist. There is no study by MIT, and Stoner's work was destroyed in peer review.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1385637
United States
05/25/2011 09:11 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
bumpbump::bump::::
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1398838
05/25/2011 09:14 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
i'm surprised you were able to say "MIT"
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1399846
United States
05/25/2011 09:15 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I see that you can't provide a link to the supposed study by MIT on their own website? LOL
Quoting: sling

Okay enlightened one, what are the odds, you want proof of the odds, calculate them, I could care less if the odds were calculated at the funny farm, the point is, WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS? WHAT ARE THE ODDS?

If they are one in one hundred, one in a thousand or one in one million, what is the difference, it is humanly impossible to do what Jesus did!

You are an atheist and will go to any lengths to prove you are right in your beliefs. This is the game you are playing.
Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1397988

Quoting: sling

Can YOU not read? Here, from an earlier post...

HAHAHAHA, what a fucking failure you are. The guy that wrote the book is Peter W. Stoner. Then you provide a link to a guy named Peter H. Stone that works at MIT. Nice try douche bag.

Did you even look to see who Peter W. Stoner is? It says it in his book.

PETER W. STONER, M.S.
Chairman of the Departments of Mathematics and Astronomy at Pasadena City College
until 1953; Chairman of the science division, Westmont College, 1953-57; Professor
Emeritus of Science, Westmont College; Professor Emeritus of Mathematics and

LOL, wow... you christards will stop at nothing.

The link you are giving is to a different guy. Peter H Stone works at MIT. Yet, Peter W. Stoner wrote the book that you're harping on about. Two different guys. There was no MIT study.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1399773
United States
05/25/2011 09:24 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
I predict that no one will get out alive.

My work here as a clairvoyant, is now complete.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1342056
United States
05/25/2011 09:32 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Jesus is a fictional character

(for all the tards that means he didn't actually exist)

the NT writers created a fictional character that fulfilled OT prophecy, that is obvious to everyone except the tards that belieeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeee

lol
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 554016
United States
05/25/2011 09:50 AM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
A Study Conducted at MIT

To illustrate this point: If we take 100 trillion silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they would be two feet deep. Now we mark one of these silver dollars and thoroughly stir the whole mass--all over the state. Now blindfold a man and let him travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick only one silver dollar.

What chance would he have of picking the marked one?
Quoting: sling

so jesus was blind and couldnt read the bible where the predictions were made. These predictions were not sealed.
you have a bad analogy. The man shouldnt be blind but he was given a map to the coin. Now what are the chances of him finding it?

Also What are the chances that they were not all fullfilled and that the vatican lied about it. Cause those are pretty high too.
sling (OP)

User ID: 369281
05/25/2011 08:29 PM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
Thanks for bump!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1353884
United States
05/25/2011 08:34 PM
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Re: MIT Calculates Odds Of Jesus Fulfilling 8 Old Testament Prophecies!
So does Jesus, who is King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, need to use any evil vermin who are otherwise known as the greys/reptiles, insectoids, annunaki, fallen angels, pleidians or any any other off world miscreants/fallen angels etc, to create crop circles, and prepare humans for ascension, and to help Him bring His Kingdom into the earth?

I don't think so!

Wake up folks, you are being had by Crop Circles and New Age channeled Mumbo Jumbo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The purpose of Crop Circles is to deceive the gullible. The Reptiles are are here to serve you alright,...for dinner that is!
Quoting: sling

r u from indiana?
Erik Bergqvist
User ID: 1429811
Sweden
06/15/2011 05:15 PM
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