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ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!

 
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ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
A former pre-trib believer has recently released a book entitled "Changed - Compelling Scriptures that Changed a Pre-tribulation Rapture Believer Forever"

The cool thing is that the full version can be downloaded free at post-trib.org

I just searched Amazon too and apparently it can be purchased in paperback form as well. (if you type in pre-tribulation rapture into search it should come up within the first few pages)

I just read this book and it is AMAZING. It's easy to understand yet absolutely DESTROYS any idea of a pre-trib rapture using the Scriptures - fighting fire with fire so to speak.

If you don't want to seriously question your belief in the pre-trib rapture, I warn you not to read this book.

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
Agreed...

Here ya go....
Thread: THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE!!..READ THIS IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE!



pope2
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
bsflag
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
hf
~Andariel~

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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
Rapturetards
Space, the final frontier...or is it?
Knowledge is power
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
Where in the bible does it say rapture? If you could please post vers where it actualy says rapture.
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
I've been reading about it (pro and con) since I was a teenager and I'm 50 years old.

I still believe in the pre-trib rapture. If I'm wrong, God will forgive me. But I've read the arguments on both sides and there is a rapture. TPTB know it too...they're scared shitless. It is on the illuminati card game...and there is nothing they can do about it. It is the rapture of believers in Jesus Christ and not an alien thing.
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
I've been reading about it (pro and con) since I was a teenager and I'm 50 years old.

I still believe in the pre-trib rapture. If I'm wrong, God will forgive me. But I've read the arguments on both sides and there is a rapture. TPTB know it too...they're scared shitless. It is on the illuminati card game...and there is nothing they can do about it. It is the rapture of believers in Jesus Christ and not an alien thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1455887




Surely we shall find out
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
I've been reading about it (pro and con) since I was a teenager and I'm 50 years old.

I still believe in the pre-trib rapture. If I'm wrong, God will forgive me. But I've read the arguments on both sides and there is a rapture. TPTB know it too...they're scared shitless. It is on the illuminati card game...and there is nothing they can do about it. It is the rapture of believers in Jesus Christ and not an alien thing.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1455887


The book doesn't descredit the rapture altogether, it just challenges the pre-trib timing.
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
Where in the bible does it say rapture? If you could please post vers where it actualy says rapture.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1343116


The word rapture isn't found in the english translation, it's derived from the latin vulgate from the word "rapimeur" which is translated as "we shall be caught up"

If you want to find the word rapture in the bible, then you'll have to learn latin I guess.
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1466466


Good stuff there!
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
o.k. i won't
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
o.k. i won't
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1442492


That seems about right
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
Dont buy a book.

Just read this.

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation.

Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
Anonymous Coward
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Instead of Godlike productions we need another forum called Godfree productions so we don't have these endless hoard of Jesus freaks and their childish brainwashed stories of how they will escape reality.

I have news for you. You will be raptured. At least most of you. The lucky ones will be the ones that stayed out of sight and skipped the servant roundup and their wiping the tears away treatment which once again removes their memories leaving them not just as bad off as they are now but in the clutches the system that put them here, further then getting out of the prison and regaining themselves then ever before.
Anonymous Coward
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My question to you is if the Illuminati know there will be a rapture, Why hasn't that motivated them to turn to Christ then????
Anonymous Coward
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A former pre-trib believer has recently released a book entitled "Changed - Compelling Scriptures that Changed a Pre-tribulation Rapture Believer Forever"

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1118714

If he had just read the Bible before, instead of listening to false teachers, he would have never believed in the pre-tribulation rapture in the first place.

The scriptures are very clear that the so-called rapture event happens on the last day of this age, the day the Lord return.

The scriptures are very clear on this.

Those who believe in the rapture have never truly studied the scriptures, or they have no love for the truth in their heart. I remember Ice and how he forced his ignorant dogma around here; claiming how he had years and years of Bible study and guaranteed the rapture on May 21.

The pre-tribulation rapture is part of a larger deception that is designed to obfuscate Christ. It is part of dispensationalism that grew out from the counter-reformation in the Catholic church. There is nothing Biblical about any rapture event before the return of Christ.
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Instead of Godlike productions we need another forum called Godfree productions so we don't have these endless hoard of Jesus freaks and their childish brainwashed stories of how they will escape reality.

I have news for you. You will be raptured. At least most of you. The lucky ones will be the ones that stayed out of sight and skipped the servant roundup and their wiping the tears away treatment which once again removes their memories leaving them not just as bad off as they are now but in the clutches the system that put them here, further then getting out of the prison and regaining themselves then ever before.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1430122

Are you incapable of not clicking on the thread or do you not have the self-control to not read Bible related threads?

I know this is a difficult concept for you and your simple little mind, but if you do not like the thread topic, stay out of it!
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great points OP, waiting on a friend here, we are supposed to take a hike in a bit

the pre-trib delusion, the five foolish virgins who are waiting for the Master to Return, and at Midnight- the Great Tribulation begins, they are not raptured and have no oil to escape according to His Plan and it is to late for them to learn.

Pray and watch always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things and stand before the SON of Man

The woman in the wilderness for 1260 days to a place prepared by Him.

Thread: YHWH Alone Declares The End from the Beginning

YAH has a Plan for His People, The Greater Exodus
Judethz
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grizzy This is from a thread I did a couple of years ago.

WHEN WILL THE RAPTURE BE

Basically I think that there is only one correct answer and that is... today. Note that there are two classes of the blessed. Class I Those who are dead in Christ. Class II Those who are alive in Christ.

Now someone who is in Class I was obviously at some time in the past a member of Class II. Non of us can guarantee that we will still be drawing breath at this time tomorrow. So this is not a matter that you can comfortably "put off". As is the common human tendency when faced with a decision. In fact putting it off is in fact a decision in and of it's self. You might be blessed with a little more time, but don't count on it. The risks and consequences of dying in your sins are just to great. All of us are skating on thin ice.



1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

WHERE DID THEY GO?...

[link to www.chick.com]

Last Edited by Judethz on 07/13/2011 06:47 PM
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[link to diaconspiracyfiles.files.wordpress.com]
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I read everything in the book up to this point. I stopped because he is incorrect and is leading awakened Christians in the wrong direction.

Matthew 24:38-41 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I will acknowledge that, initially, it could be very easy to associate those taken away in the flood with “the one shall be taken,” described just one verse later. But as I have been emphasizing, Jesus, just moments earlier, had literally and very specifically declared to His disciples that a gathering of the elect is to occur at the coming of the Son of man. Since the true intent of the Noah illustration was to merely elaborate on that original literal description, then those who are taken in verses 40 and 41 must be categorized with the elect who must be gathered at the coming of the Son of man according to Jesus. It is, by far, the most logical con-nection to be made when considering that the context is simply being carried from Christ‟s literal description over to the parable of the fig tree and finally into the comparison of Noah‟s day—where Noah (representative of today‟s be-liever) was the one who was actually taken away in salva-tion while the wicked were left to suffer the wrath of God in the great flood. Fortunately for us, the disciples were as curious then as we are now and asked Jesus in Luke 17:37 to clarify what He was talking about when He used the word “taken.”

Luke 17:37

And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? [where are they taken?] And he said unto them, Whe-resoever the body (carcass) is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

What cryptic message was Christ trying to relay? First, the word He used earlier for “taken” in the Greek transla-tion is paralambano—a combination of para and lambano. It means: To receive near or associate with one’s self in any familiar intimate act or relation. There is certainly nothing intimate between Christ and the unsaved so they cannot be the ones He was referring to. It is evident, when considering the Greek translation that Jesus was referring to the believers who, unarguably, have the intimate rela-tionship with Him and who are to be taken at that time of His Second Coming.
 Quoting: Excerpt from the Book


Wrong! The "Carcass" is Satan, and the Eagles is incorrectly translated and the correct translation is "Vultures". And those that are "taken" are "raptured", but not by God. They are "raptured" by Satan.

If you think I'm wrong; look it all up.

It's a perfect trap set up by Satan himself. Those who are awake understand me perfectly.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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I read everything in the book up to this point. I stopped because he is incorrect and is leading awakened Christians in the wrong direction.

Matthew 24:38-41 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I will acknowledge that, initially, it could be very easy to associate those taken away in the flood with “the one shall be taken,” described just one verse later. But as I have been emphasizing, Jesus, just moments earlier, had literally and very specifically declared to His disciples that a gathering of the elect is to occur at the coming of the Son of man. Since the true intent of the Noah illustration was to merely elaborate on that original literal description, then those who are taken in verses 40 and 41 must be categorized with the elect who must be gathered at the coming of the Son of man according to Jesus. It is, by far, the most logical con-nection to be made when considering that the context is simply being carried from Christ‟s literal description over to the parable of the fig tree and finally into the comparison of Noah‟s day—where Noah (representative of today‟s be-liever) was the one who was actually taken away in salva-tion while the wicked were left to suffer the wrath of God in the great flood. Fortunately for us, the disciples were as curious then as we are now and asked Jesus in Luke 17:37 to clarify what He was talking about when He used the word “taken.”

Luke 17:37

And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? [where are they taken?] And he said unto them, Whe-resoever the body (carcass) is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

What cryptic message was Christ trying to relay? First, the word He used earlier for “taken” in the Greek transla-tion is paralambano—a combination of para and lambano. It means: To receive near or associate with one’s self in any familiar intimate act or relation. There is certainly nothing intimate between Christ and the unsaved so they cannot be the ones He was referring to. It is evident, when considering the Greek translation that Jesus was referring to the believers who, unarguably, have the intimate rela-tionship with Him and who are to be taken at that time of His Second Coming.
 Quoting: Excerpt from the Book


Wrong! The "Carcass" is Satan, and the Eagles is incorrectly translated and the correct translation is "Vultures". And those that are "taken" are "raptured", but not by God. They are "raptured" by Satan.

If you think I'm wrong; look it all up.

It's a perfect trap set up by Satan himself. Those who are awake understand me perfectly.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477



Care to provide solid scriptural references to back up these curious statements?
Anonymous Coward
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Dont buy a book.

Just read this.

Scriptures that prove the post trib rapture.


The first thing I will say is to prove the post trib rapture you only need to show two things in scripture (although I will do much more than that in this post) #1 that the 2nd coming is after the Tribulation, and #2 that the rapture is at the 2nd coming. (side note: the resurrection of the just is also at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ yet before the rapture this is important to know as we move on)

So #1 The 2nd coming is after the tribulation
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And (THEN)he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no mistaking, the meaning of this verse, nor can you mistake when it will take place. The coming of the Son of man is immediately after the tribulation of those day. Just to show that this is the Great Tribulation and just one tribulation of many lets start the text at verse 21 and read through verse 31.

Matthew 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days be shortened, there shall no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.
23 then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.(Kinda hard to do..seeing as you think the ELECT wont BE here huh?)

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall the coming of the Son of man be. (Yeah..REAL secret aint it??...NOT)
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.(Not a very secret event eh?)

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that this is referring to The Great Tribulation and not just a tribulation. We also see that it is after the tribulation that Jesus returns. We also see that there is a gathering together of the elect at this point. Some argue that they are gathered from Heaven and not from Earth because they were raptured seven years earlier before the tribulation started. So I will now show in Mark 13:24-27, the sister scripture to Matthew 24:29-31 that they not only gathered from Heaven, but from Heaven and Earth.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after this tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

So we see that Jesus gathers the elect from Heaven and Earth at the end of the tribulation from Heaven'' the dead in Christ'' from Earth '' those that are still living''. We also see that this is the Great Tribulation not a tribulation as verse 19 shows

Mark 13:19 For in those day there shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

We can make the case from these scriptures that the resurrection of the just, and the rapture is after the tribulation. However that is not the point I am using them to make. The point is the second coming of Christ is after the Great Tribulation, and biblically you can clearly see that this is the case. Now I will show you that the rapture is at this post trib second coming.

#2 The rapture is at the 2nd coming of Christ (which per point 1 is post trib.
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(THE RESSURECTION OF THE JUST!)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

There are two main things I would like you to notice about this verse. First ....that the dead in Christ rise first. This is important because, there will be scripture use later that speaks of the resurrection of the just happening at the second coming, and we need to realize that the living will not precede the dead but will be caught up after them. So if the resurrection of the just is post trib then the rapture would be as well. Secondly I will give you the timing of this event that all agree is the rapture.

Verse 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep.

The rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord, which we have already shown is after the tribulation. I could stop right now this is all the proof we need, but I have more. By the way, some thing for you to notice if a pretrib teacher ever teaches on the rapture they will skip verse 15 and quote verse 16 and 17 only. Is this open deception or an over sight? I will let you decide.

1st Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward that they are Christ's at his coming.
We will all be resurrected and there will be an order. Jesus is first, that has already happen, and then those that are Christ's, those that have been saved (Christians) at His coming. There is no mention of a resurrection of the righteous between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming. As a matter of fact it says that those that belong to Christ will be resurrected at the post trib second coming. We saw in 1st Thessalonians that the dead are raised before the living are raptured. So if the resurrection of the dead in Christ is at the post trib second coming then the rapture has to be as well.

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, bretheren. by the coming of the Lord and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, and the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there be a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

In verse 1 Paul is speaking of two events. the coming of the Lord or '' The second coming'' and the gathering together unto him or '' the resurrection of the just and or rapture''. In verse 3 we see that Paul says these two event happen on a singular day ''That day''. Also in verse 3 Paul writes that that day could not happen until after the falling away takes place and the anti christ is revealed. Some pretrib preachers go as far as to say the falling away is the rapture, teaching that the rapture must come before the second coming. However the greek word for falling away is ''apostasia'', which literally means a turning from the truth. So the church itself will turn from the truth (Seems the pre trib rapture doctrine is PROOF of this)and then the anti christ will be revealed and then (AND ONLY THEN)the rapture can take place, not before. This passage excludes the pretrib view because we know that the anti christ will not be revealed before the tribulation starts but AFTER!!!. Further more it proves the post trib view because it declares that the second coming and the rapture take place on the same day. These two events are not seven years apart, not three and a half years apart, not one year, one month or one day apart. They occur on the same exact day.

1st John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
When does Christ appear? At his post trib second coming. When shall we be like him? When we receive our heavenly bodies, which is at the resurrection of the just and or the rapture. So this verse actually says that we will be resurrected and or raptured to receive our heavenly immortal bodies at the post trib second coming. 
I think the scriptural evidence of a post trib rapture that I have presented so far is overwhelming.

BUT THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!!!!

Real quickly I will give three verses that state that we must endure until the very end to be saved.
Matthew 24:12-13, Mark 13:13, and Revelation 2:26.
Matthew 24:12-13
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

(NOTICE IT DIDNT SAY HE WHO ENDURES TO THE START..OR THE MIDDLE..BUT THE END..WHAT PART OF "END" DONT YOU GET YET?)

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Both of these passages say he that endures unto the end, shall be saved. Some teach that this means you must keep your faith until your death to get to heaven. Actually if you will notice, both of these passage are in chapters that are specifically explaining the events of the tribulation.

In Matthew it says that iniquity will abound. In Mark it says we will be hated by all men for Christ's name sake. What these verse are telling us is that only those that do not turn from Christ during the tribulation will be saved. Those of us that endure until the very end shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keeps my works until the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

NOTICE THIS...

It is only those that keep God's holy word until the very end that will reign with Christ during the Millennium. We must endure until the end show let me show you want the end is.

1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns.

Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints.

Although....if He catches up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints. So you just cant have it BOTH ways..did Jesus MEAN what he said OR DINT he??

1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:(FIRST RESSURECTION)17 Then (MEANING RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION)we which are alive and remain (THOSE THAT ENDURED TO THE END AND SURVIVED)shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, (THE RAPTURE)and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies.

Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints.

We will be raised at the last day John 6:39, 40, 44, and 54
John 6:39, 40, 44 , and 54

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should loose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.54 Whosoever eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.Jesus repeatedly declares that He will raise us up at the last day. Not seven years before, not three and a half years before, not one year, one month , or one day before, but at the last day.Tell me..WHAT part of "LAST DAY dont you get yet?)

At the last trump,
1st Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, (THEN..RIGHT AFTER THAT)and we shall be changed.(RAPTURED)[/b]53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

(YEP..THATS THE RAPTURE ALRIGHT..RIGHT AFTER THE FIRST RESSURECTION WHICH IS CLEARLY SEEN WITH NO SCRIPTURE TWISTING NEEDED...TO HAPPEN WHEN???..AT THE LORD RETURN ON THE LAAAAST DAY!!!)

Anyone cane EASILY SEE that this is referring to the event known as the rapture. We see in the passage that it tell us when it will happen ''at the last trump''. We also see in Matthew 24:29-31 that there will be a trumpet sounded after the tribulation has ended.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation (I CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW PRE TRIBBER CAN IGNORE THIS..PERHAPS IT THREATENS THEIR BOOK SALES TOO MUCH)of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect(RAPTURE THEM) from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
If the rapture is at the last trump, which we know it is because God's word says it does. Then the rapture can not be before the trumpet sounded in Matthew 24, which is sounded after the tribulation is over.

Next I will show two more things #1 that the wicked are destroyed by fire at the post trib 2nd coming of Christ, and #2 that the rapture is on the same day that Christ return at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked.

#1 The destruction of the wicked by fire at the post trib 2nd coming.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he ( John the Baptist) saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham as our father: for I say unto you that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree that brings forth not good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he will baptize you with the Holy Ghost(FOR THE RIGHTEOUS), and with fire.(FOR THE WICKED)
12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

There is only three times in the New Testament that the phrase ''wrath to come'' is mentioned. Once in 1st Thessalonians 1:10, once here in Matthew 3:7 and in Luke 3:7 which is telling the same story about John the Baptist warning the masses of the wrath that is to come. So what is the ''wrath to come'' that he was warning them from? It is the purging of the floor mentioned in verse 12. It is the baptism of fire when the wicked will be overwhelmed by fire at the return of Jesus, it is the burning of the chaff which will occur when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming. The wrath to come that Jesus has delivered us from by his death and resurrection, is the destruction of the wicked by fire at the second coming of Christ.
 
1st Thessalonians 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The destruction of the wicked is not a prolonged seven years period, but it is sudden destruction that will come upon them when Jesus returns at the post trib second coming.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.

When Jesus returns He is coming in power and great glory, the tribes of the earth shall mourn and every one that is not in Christ including the anti christ will be destroyed immediately by the brightness of His coming.

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we willfully sin after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.The wrath to come is the judgment of God were He will destroy all His adversaries with a fiery indignation, when Jesus returns, not the entire tribulation period.

2nd Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up.

This doesn't sound like a pretrib event, there wouldn't be anything left to live on earth for the next seven years. The day of the Lord is a post tribulational event. Where Jesus will destroy all with fire, but first he will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch away the living saints.

I have shown that the wrath is the fiery destruction of the wicked which occurs at the return of Christ. It is not the tribulation period itself. Next, I will give scripture that shows that the second coming, the resurrection of the just, the rapture of the living saints and the destruction of the wicked by fire happen all at once.

#2 The rapture is at the post rib 2nd coming on the same day Christ return to deatroy the wicked.
Pretrib ''Theologians'' boldly proclaim that when ever the second coming is mentioned, there is no mention of the church being raptured, and when ever the rapture is mentioned there is no mention of the destruction of the wicked. Well, I have four passages of scripture that will eliminate that myth once and for all. The first text I will use is Matthew 3:12, I will revisit the words of John the baptist.

Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, he shall throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Notice that when Jesus comes to purge His floor, He first gathers the wheat and then burns the chaff. This is what will occur at the second coming. When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will resurrect the just, rapture the saints, and then burn the wicked with an unquenchable fire.

Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving into marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came and took them all away,(IN OTHER WORKDS..KILLED THEM ALL SUDDENLY) so shall the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field one taken,(KILLED..NOT RAPTURED) and the other left.
41 Two woman shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left.
The flood came and took them away (DROWNED THEM ALL)when they were unaware, so will the coming of Christ be, but this next flood will be a flood of fire. At this point, at the post trib second coming when Jesus is returning to destroy the wicked is when the rapture takes place. Verse 40 and 41 declare THEN will one be taken (BURNT UP SUDDENLY BY FIRE)and the other left, not before the return of Christ, but at it.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, and they were given into marriage, until Noah entered into the ark then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The very day Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all, once again it was not a seven year prolonged period of destruction but it was immediate, the very day the righteous were removed.
28 Likewise also as it was in the day of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But THE SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone down from heaven and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day the Son of man shall be revealed.

It very clear the SAME DAY Noah went on the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The SAME DAY Lot was taken, out of Sodom fire and brimstone rain from heaven and destroyed them all. The text says this is exactly how it will be when Jesus returns. The very SAME DAY Jesus returns at His post trib second coming is the very SAME DAY we will be taken out or '' raptured '' and it is the very SAME DAY He will destroy the wicked. This will be confirmed in my next text 2nd Thessalonins 1:6-10 as well.

2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation on them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe ( because our testimony among you was believed ) in that day.We receive our rest when Jesus is revealed with his mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God.

In other words we are raptured at the post trib second coming when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked with fire. Lets look at verse 7 and 8 again.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is no question that this passage places the post trib second coming, the rapture of the saints, and the destruction of the wicked all at the very same time. The pretib ''Theologian'' that claims the Bible never says as much, must of missed this passage. We cannot ignore God's word, so I choose to ignore the pretrib ''Theologian''.

Lastly I will give a reference in Revelation 20:4-6 that tells us that the raptre is after the Tribulation (remember the resurrection of the just comes before rapture of the living saints). In Revelation 20:4-6 it shows us the the 1st resurrection the resurrection of the just is after the Tribulation because it include those that were martyred during the Tribulation.

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands,; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousands years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As CAN CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLE CAN BE SEEN NOW...The first resurrection is after the tribulation, we know this because it includes the tribulational martyrs.

There can be no resurrection before the first resurrection, otherwise it would be a SECOND ressurection..or a THIRD even, therefore there can not be a mass resurrection of the dead in Christ before the tribulation.

Seeing that the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation, the pretrib rapture along with the mid trib, and pre wrath rapture become biblically impossible. The only view that fits is that of a post trib rapture. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the just and the rapture immediately proceeds it.


So to summarise....

The first ressurection happens at the LAST day..the very day Jesus returns to begin his reign and toast the evil ones at armageddon....yes???

The SECOND ressurection happens at the end of the thousand years not long after stan is let loose again to lead his final rebellion..correct??

So...according to the bible...Jesus returns..gathers all who are his...the dead who LOVED him and God..followed by those who are still alive who love himm....and wipes out the antichrist at the end of the tribulation..FIRST ressurection..

There are only TWO ressurections..a "First"..which is for the righteous..and a "Second" which is for the evil.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1466518


Oh frig not you again!

Give it a REST CRIMINAL!
G
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07/14/2011 02:06 AM
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
good debunk that fairy tale bullshit before more idiots kill themselves and their kids and give away their life savings due to religious con men.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/14/2011 10:36 AM
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
bump
Anonymous Coward
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07/14/2011 02:29 PM
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
I read everything in the book up to this point. I stopped because he is incorrect and is leading awakened Christians in the wrong direction.

Matthew 24:38-41 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I will acknowledge that, initially, it could be very easy to associate those taken away in the flood with “the one shall be taken,” described just one verse later. But as I have been emphasizing, Jesus, just moments earlier, had literally and very specifically declared to His disciples that a gathering of the elect is to occur at the coming of the Son of man. Since the true intent of the Noah illustration was to merely elaborate on that original literal description, then those who are taken in verses 40 and 41 must be categorized with the elect who must be gathered at the coming of the Son of man according to Jesus. It is, by far, the most logical con-nection to be made when considering that the context is simply being carried from Christ‟s literal description over to the parable of the fig tree and finally into the comparison of Noah‟s day—where Noah (representative of today‟s be-liever) was the one who was actually taken away in salva-tion while the wicked were left to suffer the wrath of God in the great flood. Fortunately for us, the disciples were as curious then as we are now and asked Jesus in Luke 17:37 to clarify what He was talking about when He used the word “taken.”

Luke 17:37

And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? [where are they taken?] And he said unto them, Whe-resoever the body (carcass) is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

What cryptic message was Christ trying to relay? First, the word He used earlier for “taken” in the Greek transla-tion is paralambano—a combination of para and lambano. It means: To receive near or associate with one’s self in any familiar intimate act or relation. There is certainly nothing intimate between Christ and the unsaved so they cannot be the ones He was referring to. It is evident, when considering the Greek translation that Jesus was referring to the believers who, unarguably, have the intimate rela-tionship with Him and who are to be taken at that time of His Second Coming.
 Quoting: Excerpt from the Book


Wrong! The "Carcass" is Satan, and the Eagles is incorrectly translated and the correct translation is "Vultures". And those that are "taken" are "raptured", but not by God. They are "raptured" by Satan.

If you think I'm wrong; look it all up.

It's a perfect trap set up by Satan himself. Those who are awake understand me perfectly.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477



Care to provide solid scriptural references to back up these curious statements?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1118714


Eagles do not feed on Carcasses, Eagles make carcasses. Vultures feed on carcasses.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org]

In Matthew 24 Jesus had just Described the "Abomination of Desolation" and spoke of people being taken. Obviously since Satan is destined to die, Jesus would see him as a carcass and the vultures are obviously all those who believe his mass deception.

This is backed up with many verses prior to Matthew 24:28 as a lead up in context. Shall I point out the obvious for you?
Anonymous Coward
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07/14/2011 02:38 PM
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
isn't there scripture that says the elect will not face God's wrath during the tribulation?

I know Rapture Ready forums has a good case for pre-trib rapture theory.

Being a Christian I look at it in this way,

There are three theories,
I guess it's not meant to be clear, therefore keeping the believer walking in faith and in hope.

Always be ready, regardless of which theory you believe in,

I don't believe tribulation is a 'salvation' issue, therefore it doesn't hurt anyone who believes in any of these three theories.

I am currently preparing food for a SHTF scenerio.
My faith is in God, and the brains and common sense HE gave me. Common sense tells me, prepare for the worst, pray and hope for the best

food in the basement so my people don't starve in a tribulation scenerio....and baby, you gotta believe after going to the grocery store and seeing the prices, we are at the edge of that right now.
Anonymous Coward
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07/14/2011 02:43 PM
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
Please show me where in the Word of God does it say that Satan will die?!?

Please show the scripture.....

You arent very knowledgeable are you?


I read everything in the book up to this point. I stopped because he is incorrect and is leading awakened Christians in the wrong direction.

Matthew 24:38-41 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I will acknowledge that, initially, it could be very easy to associate those taken away in the flood with “the one shall be taken,” described just one verse later. But as I have been emphasizing, Jesus, just moments earlier, had literally and very specifically declared to His disciples that a gathering of the elect is to occur at the coming of the Son of man. Since the true intent of the Noah illustration was to merely elaborate on that original literal description, then those who are taken in verses 40 and 41 must be categorized with the elect who must be gathered at the coming of the Son of man according to Jesus. It is, by far, the most logical con-nection to be made when considering that the context is simply being carried from Christ‟s literal description over to the parable of the fig tree and finally into the comparison of Noah‟s day—where Noah (representative of today‟s be-liever) was the one who was actually taken away in salva-tion while the wicked were left to suffer the wrath of God in the great flood. Fortunately for us, the disciples were as curious then as we are now and asked Jesus in Luke 17:37 to clarify what He was talking about when He used the word “taken.”

Luke 17:37

And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? [where are they taken?] And he said unto them, Whe-resoever the body (carcass) is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

What cryptic message was Christ trying to relay? First, the word He used earlier for “taken” in the Greek transla-tion is paralambano—a combination of para and lambano. It means: To receive near or associate with one’s self in any familiar intimate act or relation. There is certainly nothing intimate between Christ and the unsaved so they cannot be the ones He was referring to. It is evident, when considering the Greek translation that Jesus was referring to the believers who, unarguably, have the intimate rela-tionship with Him and who are to be taken at that time of His Second Coming.
 Quoting: Excerpt from the Book


Wrong! The "Carcass" is Satan, and the Eagles is incorrectly translated and the correct translation is "Vultures". And those that are "taken" are "raptured", but not by God. They are "raptured" by Satan.

If you think I'm wrong; look it all up.

It's a perfect trap set up by Satan himself. Those who are awake understand me perfectly.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477



Care to provide solid scriptural references to back up these curious statements?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1118714


Eagles do not feed on Carcasses, Eagles make carcasses. Vultures feed on carcasses.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org]

In Matthew 24 Jesus had just Described the "Abomination of Desolation" and spoke of people being taken. Obviously since Satan is destined to die, Jesus would see him as a carcass and the vultures are obviously all those who believe his mass deception.

This is backed up with many verses prior to Matthew 24:28 as a lead up in context. Shall I point out the obvious for you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477
Anonymous Coward
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Re: ATTENTION!!! IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN BLISSFULLY IGNORANT ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEN DON'T READ THIS!!
Please show me where in the Word of God does it say that Satan will die?!?

Please show the scripture.....

You arent very knowledgeable are you?


I read everything in the book up to this point. I stopped because he is incorrect and is leading awakened Christians in the wrong direction.

...


Wrong! The "Carcass" is Satan, and the Eagles is incorrectly translated and the correct translation is "Vultures". And those that are "taken" are "raptured", but not by God. They are "raptured" by Satan.

If you think I'm wrong; look it all up.

It's a perfect trap set up by Satan himself. Those who are awake understand me perfectly.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477



Care to provide solid scriptural references to back up these curious statements?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1118714


Eagles do not feed on Carcasses, Eagles make carcasses. Vultures feed on carcasses.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org]

In Matthew 24 Jesus had just Described the "Abomination of Desolation" and spoke of people being taken. Obviously since Satan is destined to die, Jesus would see him as a carcass and the vultures are obviously all those who believe his mass deception.

This is backed up with many verses prior to Matthew 24:28 as a lead up in context. Shall I point out the obvious for you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1467883



Revelation 20:7 thru 10

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Anonymous Coward
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07/14/2011 03:09 PM
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LMAO

I guess you quit reading at verse 9.....

Because rev 20:10 plainly states the devil will be tortured in the lake of fire forever....


You FAIL

Read all of the Bible. Not just what your preacher tells you. And also learn the correst way to quote sripture and verse...




Please show me where in the Word of God does it say that Satan will die?!?

Please show the scripture.....

You arent very knowledgeablecruise are you?


...



Care to provide solid scriptural references to back up these curious statements?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1118714


Eagles do not feed on Carcasses, Eagles make carcasses. Vultures feed on carcasses.

[link to www.blueletterbible.org]

In Matthew 24 Jesus had just Described the "Abomination of Desolation" and spoke of people being taken. Obviously since Satan is destined to die, Jesus would see him as a carcass and the vultures are obviously all those who believe his mass deception.

This is backed up with many verses prior to Matthew 24:28 as a lead up in context. Shall I point out the obvious for you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1467883



Revelation 20:7 thru 10

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 673477