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How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?

 
ajk

User ID: 1114631
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07/28/2011 10:47 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I think the better question you should ask is, is it loving for one to tell their kids that they are worthless sinners apart from you who deserve death if not for this. To take that even further, you should ask is it loving that the reason you are told this to start with, is because of something other people did that you had nothing to do with. In effect, you are being held responsible for something you never did, and were not alive to have even considered doing. Is that love to you? Would you ever treat your own children like this?

If you wouldn't, why would God? He's on a whole other level from us, and He's gonna act in a way even we know is no good? That simply doesn't make any sense.

Last Edited by ajk on 07/28/2011 10:56 PM
No one is perfect. A babe before walking will first stumble and fall many times but NEVER gives up until he succeeds.

Always remember, ultimately, to never follow any person's belief. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

If nothing else, remember this: religion = subservience, control and conformity, the same template as EVERY government

"Most believers would kill truth if truth threatened their religion." L. K. Washburn

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll

"If anyone wants to know how God feels, it's a warm light as if the sun is poking through dark clouds and lifting your spirits with pure joy."
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 10:47 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
The story of Jesus was a fairy tale invented by the elite to keep commoners from having sex with beautiful women.

Nothing more.

Stop fornicating and leave all the beautiful women for the elite!
 Quoting: Tyranny of Evil Men


[link to www.provethebible.net]
 Quoting: TXGal4Truth


Riiiiiiiiiiiight

peace
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 10:53 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
It doesn't. the bible is full of lies and so are the teachings about Jesus.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular

This is based on all the other books of lies you have read, and put faith in, which were ALL written by biased men.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482608


Any different from the Council of Nicea, who under the order of the kind to unite the territories around Rome "gathered" the Bible...?

Under DRACONIAN (as oppose to ANNUNAKI) rule, no less.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1454000


"kind" i mean king

i haven't discarded the Bible, it's a "book of 12" that I base my paradigm on... so to speak
ajk

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07/28/2011 10:54 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I will agree with you there. I meditate almost three hours a day and would definitely say that, although I can't possibly fully understand God, I DEFINITELY believe in him/her. I also believe in Jesus and that he is A son of god. As am I. As are you. But the death/sacrifice thing never really got explained well enough for me to understand it. The God I have come to understand uses the elements and forces around us to create this universe. All things are bound by God's creative laws. The sacrifice of Jesus leading to all of our sins being forgiven jumps outside of the laws our God uses to hold this Universe together. There is no correlation. It is basically one statement trying to be connected to another statement. Nothing, within the realm of reason, has seemed to explain this crucifixion thing. All I see is a man that rose above the bindings of the flesh and understood God's workings so perfectly that he could actually make them work for him: i.e. walking on water, curing illness. But his teachings actually fit better if he was trying to explain to people that the only way to rise above the suffering of physical bonds was to seek the truth of our father and ascend just like Jesus: "The only way to salvation is through me".
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Two things:

1. No one will ever be able to explain it to anyone. The belief and understanding is a gift.

2. Regarding the forces of nature: can you explain to anyone everything, both unseen and seen, regarding the force of what we call gravity to the point where the another person will understand everything about it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 498151


I can explain WHAT WE KNOW about gravity to anyone and, yes, eventually they will understand it. There is backing to the theories. However, and un-relatedly, I feel we are quite ignorant when it comes to gravities true nature. Now that being said, there is an age old religion built around gravity that has resulted in millions of deaths. At least not yet.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Change gravities to God, and you'll understand the true meaning of all these different religions and why they have been put in place.
No one is perfect. A babe before walking will first stumble and fall many times but NEVER gives up until he succeeds.

Always remember, ultimately, to never follow any person's belief. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

If nothing else, remember this: religion = subservience, control and conformity, the same template as EVERY government

"Most believers would kill truth if truth threatened their religion." L. K. Washburn

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll

"If anyone wants to know how God feels, it's a warm light as if the sun is poking through dark clouds and lifting your spirits with pure joy."
Wingedlion

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07/28/2011 10:58 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
By taking our judgment upon him.
"Glory is what happens when faith overcomes adversity."
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 11:02 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
...

Surprisingly, I agree with this statement. I'm glad someone else gets it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1454000


Hahaha. SURPRISINGLY, me too.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles





Thanks for summing up this thread.






@)
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Who needs Jesus? That dick. I can be perfect, too.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


Thing about Jesus is that he probably was not a dick, but the superstitions that have grown up around his name have turned him into one.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 11:05 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me take a try at answering the ops original question...

First you have to start with some presuppositions: that god exists, that he is intelligent, all knowing, and has all power and authority of all of creation.

He spoke creation into existance, he said "let there be light" and there was light...therefore we can see a very important principle that is essential to all of existance...the natural world is bound by the authority of God's word. It can not exist without it. The indformation recieved from Gods word is necessary for existance.

And I mean this in a very real and physical sense...information is an integral and essential part to nature...consider quantum physics for example where merely the act of observing particles, or recieving information, has an effect on them. The point being, that information can and does have real physical effects on the natural world.

So heres the problem, what happens if God violates his own word, would this undo creation itself since existance hinges on the authority and truth of God's word?

In the beginning, in the garden of eden, when Adam and eve sinned, God had warned them the result of sin was death. God can not violate his own word, or it would null that words authority (This was part of the plan of satan, to make god into a liar and hypocrite so that he could ascend in power over him...all of which is impossible of course).

So since God can not violate his own law, that sin = death, the only alternative for him was to put a sacrifice in place to recieve the punishment...and he so loved the world, that he gave his own son to be that sacrifice...he could have let the world perish in its sin, but jesus took the punishment for us instead.

If he had not, God would have been bound by his original law to exact punishment on us because he can not violate his own word, otherwise satan would rule.

Now that might seem like just a legal argument, and you might ask, why not just not let anyone be punished? The problem as I said is that Gods word is a binding law on nature...he cant just say sin is death one day and contradict himself the next because the chaos of the hypocracy of gods word would undo creation...as I said, creation only exists by gods word, let there be light etc., man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of god. Therefore god can not lie, existance depends on it.
Not of this World

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07/28/2011 11:15 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Book of Judas? Thats not part of the King James bible. Satan has many ways of convincing you and helping you to adhere to philosophy and "extra" books of the bible.
If you seek with a true heart, you will find the truth. Otherwise..
 Quoting: Not of this World


Please don't throw the baby our with the bath water. I mentioned the Gospal of Judas out of passing. It is irrelevant to my original question. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not the type to find one thing you suspect in error and use it to dismiss everything else that may precede it. That is a very derailing argument method. Pretend I didn't mention any other piece of literature and please do me the honor of answering my question. I am really entertaining all explanations here. I happen to love what Jesus taught and the only thing that keeps me out of church is my ignorance towards the whole "Died for our sins" thing.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


OP, please see page one. I DID answer your question. Im an open book Christian, you can ask me anything you want after you read my post. Sorry for confusion, but all things added to the book are damnable. Not trying to disrespect. Going to church is paramount, but I hope you realize that denominational churches teach you
"doctrines of demons" as explained in the bible. This means many churches today deviate from the written word and select what suits them best.. which is blasphemy.
Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:27-58

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
-James 4:4

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
-Galatians 6:7

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
-Colossians 2:8

Rev 13:9-10 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; (Betraying your family and friends) he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. (Guns!) Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
ajk

User ID: 1114631
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07/28/2011 11:20 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Book of Judas? Thats not part of the King James bible. Satan has many ways of convincing you and helping you to adhere to philosophy and "extra" books of the bible.
If you seek with a true heart, you will find the truth. Otherwise..
 Quoting: Not of this World


Please don't throw the baby our with the bath water. I mentioned the Gospal of Judas out of passing. It is irrelevant to my original question. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not the type to find one thing you suspect in error and use it to dismiss everything else that may precede it. That is a very derailing argument method. Pretend I didn't mention any other piece of literature and please do me the honor of answering my question. I am really entertaining all explanations here. I happen to love what Jesus taught and the only thing that keeps me out of church is my ignorance towards the whole "Died for our sins" thing.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


OP, please see page one. I DID answer your question. Im an open book Christian, you can ask me anything you want after you read my post. Sorry for confusion, but all things added to the book are damnable. Not trying to disrespect. Going to church is paramount, but I hope you realize that denominational churches teach you
"doctrines of demons" as explained in the bible. This means many churches today deviate from the written word and select what suits them best.. which is blasphemy.
 Quoting: Not of this World


Course it is, they gotta keep the people in line somehow, so of course anything that goes against the book will be put down.
No one is perfect. A babe before walking will first stumble and fall many times but NEVER gives up until he succeeds.

Always remember, ultimately, to never follow any person's belief. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

If nothing else, remember this: religion = subservience, control and conformity, the same template as EVERY government

"Most believers would kill truth if truth threatened their religion." L. K. Washburn

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll

"If anyone wants to know how God feels, it's a warm light as if the sun is poking through dark clouds and lifting your spirits with pure joy."
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 11:22 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
...


But that is the Substitutionary Atonement as laid out in the Old Testament, the blood of the innocent lamb covered the sins of the people for the year, Christ, who you remember is called the Lamb of God, put His blood upon the Mercy Seat for eternity. Some one had to pay the price, and God's justice would not allow Him to accept anything but His own sacrifice as payment.
By the way, saying that "God is all" is almost the same as saying "God is nothing", you have stripped Him of everything that makes Him unique, and are close to the pagan pantheistic cosmology..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1486642


I am not concerned with my beliefs being close to anything. Saying God is nothing is actually just as accurate as saying God is all. God can not choose to be something without something to be the comparison. How can God radiate Love if he has not created the absence of it? Things only exist in relation to their opposites. A tree only exists here because it does not exist there.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Son, lame analogies from Philosophy 101 do not prove anything. God created the Cosmos, but God is also outside the Cosmos, God is here and there, at the same time, unlike your tree. Do not let yourself be mesmerized by your perceived intellect, far wiser men than you have grappled with God, and lost. God gave us His word, and the only thing standing between you and comprehension of His message is your ego.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1486642


I am sure you are aware of what projection means. I do not call you "Old man", I would prefer you call me Tyler if OP doesn't suit you. And if you have decided that my ego stops me from understanding then I suppose telling you that I know nothing won't bring you back down to my level, will it? I can admit that I know absolutely nothing for a certainty other than the fact that I exist. That is why I have started a thread with a question and not a statement. I do envy you though. It must be wonderful to know something with a certainty.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Projection? That is so '70's! Are you surer your not a 55 year old hippie locked in a time warp?
You say you know nothing except the fact that you exist, but do you really know even that? What is existence? At the most basic level, theoretical physics claims that even matter does not exist, there are only vibrations. Everything we see, hear, feel and touch are nothing but various permutations of energy, and the whole of the universe is an illusion. Some say that we have to get beyond this world of illusion, to separate ourselves from what we perceive in order to see what is beyond this phantasm of reality.
What do I say of this view of existence? Bullshit.
I see you were raised Southern Baptist, so was I. I am a proud son of the South, my ancestors were Scots-Irish, Choctaws and Jews.Life as we know it is hard, and some may not see it as fair. But I see life as a school, we are here to learn. I grew up on a farm, I worked the land. I went to University, I became "educated". I have known pain. I have seen death up close and personal, and at nearly 50, I know that I have lived more than half my life. But what have I really learned in my near half century?
I have learned that good and evil exist, they are the reality of our time. I have learned that my IQ of 150 means nothing, that my intellectual arrogance was mere vanity. But the most important thing I have learned is that everything the Bible says is true. It took me many years to realize that nearly everything I had been taught by my archaeological mentor was rank speculation at best, damned lies at worst. I have seen things that shook me to the depths of my soul, things that my training and learned mindset refused to accept. But through this I finally learned that what I had been taught as a child is the only truth.
Jesus is Lord, and His name has power over evil.
Not of this World

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07/28/2011 11:29 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
OP, here is how you are saved.. you have to start here and of course attend church, lords supper, tithe.

"For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Do you understand that you are a sinner, and you believe that Jesus Christ came as the one and only Redeemer of sin? Are you ready to receive God’s gift of His Son, Jesus Christ? If so, believe in Christ, repent of your sins, and commit the rest of your life to Him as Lord:

“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.”

"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:27-58

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
-James 4:4

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
-Galatians 6:7

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
-Colossians 2:8

Rev 13:9-10 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; (Betraying your family and friends) he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. (Guns!) Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
ajk

User ID: 1114631
United States
07/28/2011 11:40 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me take a try at answering the ops original question...

First you have to start with some presuppositions: that god exists, that he is intelligent, all knowing, and has all power and authority of all of creation.

He spoke creation into existance, he said "let there be light" and there was light...therefore we can see a very important principle that is essential to all of existance...the natural world is bound by the authority of God's word. It can not exist without it. The indformation recieved from Gods word is necessary for existance.

And I mean this in a very real and physical sense...information is an integral and essential part to nature...consider quantum physics for example where merely the act of observing particles, or recieving information, has an effect on them. The point being, that information can and does have real physical effects on the natural world.

So heres the problem, what happens if God violates his own word, would this undo creation itself since existance hinges on the authority and truth of God's word?

In the beginning, in the garden of eden, when Adam and eve sinned, God had warned them the result of sin was death. God can not violate his own word, or it would null that words authority (This was part of the plan of satan, to make god into a liar and hypocrite so that he could ascend in power over him...all of which is impossible of course).

So since God can not violate his own law, that sin = death, the only alternative for him was to put a sacrifice in place to recieve the punishment...and he so loved the world, that he gave his own son to be that sacrifice...he could have let the world perish in its sin, but jesus took the punishment for us instead.

If he had not, God would have been bound by his original law to exact punishment on us because he can not violate his own word, otherwise satan would rule.

Now that might seem like just a legal argument, and you might ask, why not just not let anyone be punished? The problem as I said is that Gods word is a binding law on nature...he cant just say sin is death one day and contradict himself the next because the chaos of the hypocracy of gods word would undo creation...as I said, creation only exists by gods word, let there be light etc., man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of god. Therefore god can not lie, existance depends on it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482714


The Bible contradicts itself in a million different places, so sorry but that just doesn't work. God doesn't lie surely, but man does, and man wrote the Bible. God had nothing to do with it.

Last Edited by ajk on 07/28/2011 11:41 PM
No one is perfect. A babe before walking will first stumble and fall many times but NEVER gives up until he succeeds.

Always remember, ultimately, to never follow any person's belief. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

If nothing else, remember this: religion = subservience, control and conformity, the same template as EVERY government

"Most believers would kill truth if truth threatened their religion." L. K. Washburn

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll

"If anyone wants to know how God feels, it's a warm light as if the sun is poking through dark clouds and lifting your spirits with pure joy."
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1240056
United States
07/28/2011 11:44 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
You are wise to ask such a question. It is good for all of us to continue to learn the deeper meaning of the sacrifice of our Savior.

By asking questions, it reveals to us how little we know.

But by learning, it draws us nearer to Christ and, hopefully, results in a deeper love and clearer understanding of what He has done for us.

There is enough literature, books, articles on this subject that you didn't have to come to GLP to get your answer, but I thank you that you did.

Love, In His name, to you.

red_heart
 Quoting: KoFFee_


AMEN!
 Quoting: TXGal4Truth


hey! this troll admires your passion, even though this troll disagrees with your terms, essentially we convey the Similar.

bless you! ;)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1454000

Repent! Satan loves you more than Jesus!:preachy2::preachy3:
Scrodiddles (OP)

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07/28/2011 11:53 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me take a try at answering the ops original question...

First you have to start with some presuppositions: that god exists, that he is intelligent, all knowing, and has all power and authority of all of creation.

He spoke creation into existance, he said "let there be light" and there was light...therefore we can see a very important principle that is essential to all of existance...the natural world is bound by the authority of God's word. It can not exist without it. The indformation recieved from Gods word is necessary for existance.

And I mean this in a very real and physical sense...information is an integral and essential part to nature...consider quantum physics for example where merely the act of observing particles, or recieving information, has an effect on them. The point being, that information can and does have real physical effects on the natural world.

So heres the problem, what happens if God violates his own word, would this undo creation itself since existance hinges on the authority and truth of God's word?

In the beginning, in the garden of eden, when Adam and eve sinned, God had warned them the result of sin was death. God can not violate his own word, or it would null that words authority (This was part of the plan of satan, to make god into a liar and hypocrite so that he could ascend in power over him...all of which is impossible of course).

So since God can not violate his own law, that sin = death, the only alternative for him was to put a sacrifice in place to recieve the punishment...and he so loved the world, that he gave his own son to be that sacrifice...he could have let the world perish in its sin, but jesus took the punishment for us instead.

If he had not, God would have been bound by his original law to exact punishment on us because he can not violate his own word, otherwise satan would rule.

Now that might seem like just a legal argument, and you might ask, why not just not let anyone be punished? The problem as I said is that Gods word is a binding law on nature...he cant just say sin is death one day and contradict himself the next because the chaos of the hypocracy of gods word would undo creation...as I said, creation only exists by gods word, let there be light etc., man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of god. Therefore god can not lie, existance depends on it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482714


Actually, thank you. That is a damn good answer. I am serious too. I have asked vetted priests and never received an answer I understand.

Thank you.

Everyone on here seems to think I was saying they were wrong just because I did not accept their answer. It just means it was not right for me. But this one really works for me.

Awesome. I completely agree that God has created laws that must be worked within and no answer I got seem to work within said laws. But this works for me.
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
EXIT
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07/29/2011 12:20 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I can assure you it is a mere mind control cult. Nothing more
Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 12:34 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I can assure you it is a mere mind control cult. Nothing more
 Quoting: EXIT 1485265


You can tell by the control it has of the minds of these poor adherents. The sad thing about these religious cults is that they set out to make their adherents less than their putative deity gave them the capability of becoming.
ajk

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07/29/2011 12:49 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me take a try at answering the ops original question...

First you have to start with some presuppositions: that god exists, that he is intelligent, all knowing, and has all power and authority of all of creation.

He spoke creation into existance, he said "let there be light" and there was light...therefore we can see a very important principle that is essential to all of existance...the natural world is bound by the authority of God's word. It can not exist without it. The indformation recieved from Gods word is necessary for existance.

And I mean this in a very real and physical sense...information is an integral and essential part to nature...consider quantum physics for example where merely the act of observing particles, or recieving information, has an effect on them. The point being, that information can and does have real physical effects on the natural world.

So heres the problem, what happens if God violates his own word, would this undo creation itself since existance hinges on the authority and truth of God's word?

In the beginning, in the garden of eden, when Adam and eve sinned, God had warned them the result of sin was death. God can not violate his own word, or it would null that words authority (This was part of the plan of satan, to make god into a liar and hypocrite so that he could ascend in power over him...all of which is impossible of course).

So since God can not violate his own law, that sin = death, the only alternative for him was to put a sacrifice in place to recieve the punishment...and he so loved the world, that he gave his own son to be that sacrifice...he could have let the world perish in its sin, but jesus took the punishment for us instead.

If he had not, God would have been bound by his original law to exact punishment on us because he can not violate his own word, otherwise satan would rule.

Now that might seem like just a legal argument, and you might ask, why not just not let anyone be punished? The problem as I said is that Gods word is a binding law on nature...he cant just say sin is death one day and contradict himself the next because the chaos of the hypocracy of gods word would undo creation...as I said, creation only exists by gods word, let there be light etc., man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of god. Therefore god can not lie, existance depends on it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482714


Actually, thank you. That is a damn good answer. I am serious too. I have asked vetted priests and never received an answer I understand.

Thank you.

Everyone on here seems to think I was saying they were wrong just because I did not accept their answer. It just means it was not right for me. But this one really works for me.

Awesome. I completely agree that God has created laws that must be worked within and no answer I got seem to work within said laws. But this works for me.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Let me ask you a question, if God created us and put us here, what would be the point of giving us the free will to experience all there is to experience, be it good things or bad alike, only to say: "Oh but you can't do this, you can't do this, and don't even think about doing this....." etc etc etc? Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of giving us the free will if He was gonna then limit it? How can one truly learn anything if a lot of it boils down to: "Obey because I say so"?

Furthermore, does it make any sense to you at all, that an unlimited God, would be so limited in that his truth can only come from one particular book and anything that goes against said book is simply false? If God is so unlimited, it would stand to reason no one book or belief system could contain Him no?

Last Edited by ajk on 07/29/2011 12:55 AM
No one is perfect. A babe before walking will first stumble and fall many times but NEVER gives up until he succeeds.

Always remember, ultimately, to never follow any person's belief. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

If nothing else, remember this: religion = subservience, control and conformity, the same template as EVERY government

"Most believers would kill truth if truth threatened their religion." L. K. Washburn

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll

"If anyone wants to know how God feels, it's a warm light as if the sun is poking through dark clouds and lifting your spirits with pure joy."
Vin Broccoli

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07/29/2011 12:55 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?


Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 01:32 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me ask you a question, if God created us and put us here, what would be the point of giving us the free will to experience all there is to experience, be it good things or bad alike, only to say: "Oh but you can't do this, you can't do this, and don't even think about doing this....." etc etc etc? Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of giving us the free will if He was gonna then limit it? How can one truly learn anything if a lot of it boils down to: "Obey because I say so"?

Furthermore, does it make any sense to you at all, that an unlimited God, would be so limited in that his truth can only come from one particular book and anything that goes against said book is simply false? If God is so unlimited, it would stand to reason no one book or belief system could contain Him no?
 Quoting: ajk




How can you have free will if you don't have choice? And whats wrong with god telling us which of those options are good for us and which are bad?

Free will requires the ability to make choices. Choices require a difference of options. Some of those options will be good and some bad. So are you suggesting that God never should have created options in the first place? and that he should not have warned us to not choose the options that are bad for us?

...or are you saying that he should have never allowed us choices in the first place; thus negating our ability to have free will?

...Or perhaps your suggesting that God should not have made options that are bad and options that are good? But without black and white, good and evil, this and that...without differences...there could be no creation, because everything would be one homogeneous blob of sameness.

Free will works fine as long as we use it to make the right choices. And thankfully god even tells us which ones are right and which ones will hurt us.

But heres the thing...you wonder why God did this, yet man does the very same thing. Whenever we create a law, set up a fence, or even create a work of art, we make a distinction between two things, and create order. As long as order is maintained this system works. When the order is violated, the creation destructs. Is man wrong in creating order? Is chaos better?

As far as the book, and the different belief systems, I would suggest that they define and reveal the nature and character of god, and if one belief system says something different than the other...then how can they be talking about the same god? And if god chose to reveal himself to a people, whats wrong with them writing it down in a book? Compare the books, teachings and beliefs of the worlds religions...if they say different things about god then they cant be talking about the same god, any more than a woman can both be pregnant and not pregnant.

As it so happens, I believe that God chose to reveal himself to the jews first, then unto the gentiles because of covenants established with them by men of faith in their history. And I'm glad they wrote down what God revealed.
ajk

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07/29/2011 02:45 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me ask you a question, if God created us and put us here, what would be the point of giving us the free will to experience all there is to experience, be it good things or bad alike, only to say: "Oh but you can't do this, you can't do this, and don't even think about doing this....." etc etc etc? Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of giving us the free will if He was gonna then limit it? How can one truly learn anything if a lot of it boils down to: "Obey because I say so"?

Furthermore, does it make any sense to you at all, that an unlimited God, would be so limited in that his truth can only come from one particular book and anything that goes against said book is simply false? If God is so unlimited, it would stand to reason no one book or belief system could contain Him no?
 Quoting: ajk




How can you have free will if you don't have choice? And whats wrong with god telling us which of those options are good for us and which are bad?

Free will requires the ability to make choices. Choices require a difference of options. Some of those options will be good and some bad. So are you suggesting that God never should have created options in the first place? and that he should not have warned us to not choose the options that are bad for us?

...or are you saying that he should have never allowed us choices in the first place; thus negating our ability to have free will?

...Or perhaps your suggesting that God should not have made options that are bad and options that are good? But without black and white, good and evil, this and that...without differences...there could be no creation, because everything would be one homogeneous blob of sameness.

Free will works fine as long as we use it to make the right choices. And thankfully god even tells us which ones are right and which ones will hurt us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482714


Here's the thing free will can not mean: OBEY OR DIE. It's no better than a rapist saying: "Ok if you do as I say you'll live, try and leave and I'll kill you. Oh but it's your choice."

There is no difference, it's spiritual rape.

What's the point of having free will to make a choice, if it's that limited? How can it be free if it's that limited? It can't.
No one is perfect. A babe before walking will first stumble and fall many times but NEVER gives up until he succeeds.

Always remember, ultimately, to never follow any person's belief. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

If nothing else, remember this: religion = subservience, control and conformity, the same template as EVERY government

"Most believers would kill truth if truth threatened their religion." L. K. Washburn

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll

"If anyone wants to know how God feels, it's a warm light as if the sun is poking through dark clouds and lifting your spirits with pure joy."
rken

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07/29/2011 03:27 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
His death didn't wash away our sins. But practicing forgiveness does. This is what he taught. Forgiveness transmutes Karma, you reap what you sow. judge not lest you be judged. etc. rken
AFFIDAVIT OF TRUTH
for taking back your Sovereignty
[link to www.buildfreedom.com]
Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 04:06 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me ask you a question, if God created us and put us here, what would be the point of giving us the free will to experience all there is to experience, be it good things or bad alike, only to say: "Oh but you can't do this, you can't do this, and don't even think about doing this....." etc etc etc? Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of giving us the free will if He was gonna then limit it? How can one truly learn anything if a lot of it boils down to: "Obey because I say so"?

Furthermore, does it make any sense to you at all, that an unlimited God, would be so limited in that his truth can only come from one particular book and anything that goes against said book is simply false? If God is so unlimited, it would stand to reason no one book or belief system could contain Him no?
 Quoting: ajk




How can you have free will if you don't have choice? And whats wrong with god telling us which of those options are good for us and which are bad?

Free will requires the ability to make choices. Choices require a difference of options. Some of those options will be good and some bad. So are you suggesting that God never should have created options in the first place? and that he should not have warned us to not choose the options that are bad for us?

...or are you saying that he should have never allowed us choices in the first place; thus negating our ability to have free will?

...Or perhaps your suggesting that God should not have made options that are bad and options that are good? But without black and white, good and evil, this and that...without differences...there could be no creation, because everything would be one homogeneous blob of sameness.

Free will works fine as long as we use it to make the right choices. And thankfully god even tells us which ones are right and which ones will hurt us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482714


Here's the thing free will can not mean: OBEY OR DIE. It's no better than a rapist saying: "Ok if you do as I say you'll live, try and leave and I'll kill you. Oh but it's your choice."

There is no difference, it's spiritual rape.

What's the point of having free will to make a choice, if it's that limited? How can it be free if it's that limited? It can't.
 Quoting: ajk


what an terrible analogy. God is somehow a rapist, and the choice is between getting raped or death? Thats absurd.

Your suggesting the choices are the lesser of two evils. Thats not the choice god gives at all...its a choice between GOOD and EVIL,..not evil #1 and evil #2.

And what is your problem with God saying obey or die? If God said Don't stick a fork in a toaster...then I think OBEY is probably a pretty good choice to that command. When God tells us to do stuff, they are for our good...not so he can rape us as you put it.

And your wrong about choice and free will being limited...its not limited at all. You percieve it to be limited because you don't like consequences for your decisions.

Theres a huge difference between limiting choices and eliminating consequences. If you have the choice wether or not to jump off a cliff, that choice is only limited if God actually physically makes you unable to jump off the cliff. But your not limited, you can jump or not jump. What your saying however that if you decide to jump when God warns you not too, that some how God is an jerk because he didn't suspend the laws of gravity and make you float instead of hitting the ground. How arrogant is that!

Your entire argument boils down to a few things: 1. you think God is a jerk and his laws are bad for you (which is false, his commands are for our good not our evil) and 2. Your mad at God for, I guess, being God, and having the right to tell you what to do or make consequences for your actions. Newsflash...Hes God. Its his Right. Your not God.

SO if you don't like the fact that you can't magically float when you jump off cliffs so to speak, or get away with doing any of the other stuff God is nice enough to warn you aint a good for you...well, I don't know what else to tell you except I think God probably is a little smarter about the proper way the universe is supposed to work that you are.
Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 04:13 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I am actually being sincere here. I was raised in a Southern Babtist home and have read the bible a fair share of times, but I am at a total loss when it comes to understanding how Jesus dying on the cross translates into me being forgiven for my "sins".

And please don't just post scripture that just states it matter-of-factly as if I should ignore that we live in a world where things have to correlate.

So they torture him, place him on a cross, and then wait for him to die. He passes away, is reborn and then ascends to heaven. Now I get forgiven if I have impatient thoughts? How does that work? Did he die, go to heaven and flip on a breaker switch, resurrect on earth to check if it worked and then just strolled on back to heaven? What happened during his death that made our sins forgivable?

It's like a father bursting through the door and telling his son that cursing is now allowed in the house because he hit a deer on the way home. How in the world is it connected?
 Quoting: Scrodiddles

That should feature in "Top Ten Lies Of All Time".
1. When Jesus saved some sinner girl , he clearly asked her to stop committing further sins
2. If Jesus is continuously washing away all sins of the believers , he is also continuously washing away all sins of the non believer (Since not believing Jesus is just one extra harmless sin)

5a
Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 04:20 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Jesus knew the truth. If try to follow his convictions and remain virtuous, we too maybe able to arrive at the truth.
Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 04:21 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Come on, you dolts can't go make a new thread to bash Jesus or ask some dumb question in?

The man finally got his answer (and a greatly worded one, at that). Scurry along, critters. Time to suck new blood!
Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 04:22 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Okay but OP let me ask you this...


No. Shut up. Go make a new thread.
alexblanelayder
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07/29/2011 04:32 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
i dont want to wall of text this thread.
listen to these brethren


shai linne: atonement Q&A
[link to www.youtube.com]


Hazakim: salvation plan
[link to www.youtube.com]

[link to www.youtube.com]

blood of the innocent is the atonement for SIN.
remember its by GRACE through FAITH.

in pragmatic terms...i hope this may helps.
anytime you think about committing a sin or get a inclination to sow into the flesh, think about the blood that was shed on Calvary and the promise he gives to each that call upon him and trust upon him by faith.

remember and recall why he did what he did and i trust you will turn from that act and seek the one that was pierced for there (that believe) iniquities. be it you as well OP.


by bringing remembrance for what he did on the cross "JESUS DEATH" keeps you from sinning thus "wash away your sins"
Cryin Wont Help Ya

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07/29/2011 04:43 AM

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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Jesus is just a reiteration of the old
Green Man myth or the Corn Goddess myth
(if you'll recall from your mythology
classes, Persephone had to "die" and
spend one season in "hell" each year in
order for the crops to grow). Jesus is
the scarecrow out in the fields. That
effigy has nothing to do with scaring
crows away (if you'll notice, it never
works) but rather to serve as a sacrifice
in proxy in order for the crops to grow.
Another poster said something about
Jesus "releasing his seed" when he died,
and I concur with this. It's a fertility
rite, ancient as the hills.

The garbage about sins and forgiveness
was added much later and is basically a
perversion of the original allegory of the
seasons.
Faire et se taire
Anonymous Coward
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07/29/2011 04:47 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
This is perhaps the clone-bait thread of the year. This crap can be debated for eons as the clones never run out of mindless rhetoric explaining this BS.

Jesus is myth. He did not exist. Sin doesn't exist. We are not held accountable for what we do or fail to do. We answer to our souls which seek balance. If we create imbalance (karma) then our soul will seek to re-balance through reparation/restorative action. We reincarnate. Over and over and over. Thus, the entire notion that we live but once, had better cross the finish line squeaky clean or else, is religious bullshit.


But by all means, let the clone-a-thon continue.
ajk

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07/29/2011 05:07 AM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Let me ask you a question, if God created us and put us here, what would be the point of giving us the free will to experience all there is to experience, be it good things or bad alike, only to say: "Oh but you can't do this, you can't do this, and don't even think about doing this....." etc etc etc? Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of giving us the free will if He was gonna then limit it? How can one truly learn anything if a lot of it boils down to: "Obey because I say so"?

Furthermore, does it make any sense to you at all, that an unlimited God, would be so limited in that his truth can only come from one particular book and anything that goes against said book is simply false? If God is so unlimited, it would stand to reason no one book or belief system could contain Him no?
 Quoting: ajk




How can you have free will if you don't have choice? And whats wrong with god telling us which of those options are good for us and which are bad?

Free will requires the ability to make choices. Choices require a difference of options. Some of those options will be good and some bad. So are you suggesting that God never should have created options in the first place? and that he should not have warned us to not choose the options that are bad for us?

...or are you saying that he should have never allowed us choices in the first place; thus negating our ability to have free will?

...Or perhaps your suggesting that God should not have made options that are bad and options that are good? But without black and white, good and evil, this and that...without differences...there could be no creation, because everything would be one homogeneous blob of sameness.

Free will works fine as long as we use it to make the right choices. And thankfully god even tells us which ones are right and which ones will hurt us.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482714


Here's the thing free will can not mean: OBEY OR DIE. It's no better than a rapist saying: "Ok if you do as I say you'll live, try and leave and I'll kill you. Oh but it's your choice."

There is no difference, it's spiritual rape.

What's the point of having free will to make a choice, if it's that limited? How can it be free if it's that limited? It can't.
 Quoting: ajk


what an terrible analogy. God is somehow a rapist, and the choice is between getting raped or death? Thats absurd.

Your suggesting the choices are the lesser of two evils. Thats not the choice god gives at all...its a choice between GOOD and EVIL,..not evil #1 and evil #2.

And what is your problem with God saying obey or die? If God said Don't stick a fork in a toaster...then I think OBEY is probably a pretty good choice to that command. When God tells us to do stuff, they are for our good...not so he can rape us as you put it.

And your wrong about choice and free will being limited...its not limited at all. You percieve it to be limited because you don't like consequences for your decisions.

Theres a huge difference between limiting choices and eliminating consequences. If you have the choice wether or not to jump off a cliff, that choice is only limited if God actually physically makes you unable to jump off the cliff. But your not limited, you can jump or not jump. What your saying however that if you decide to jump when God warns you not too, that some how God is an jerk because he didn't suspend the laws of gravity and make you float instead of hitting the ground. How arrogant is that!

Your entire argument boils down to a few things: 1. you think God is a jerk and his laws are bad for you (which is false, his commands are for our good not our evil) and 2. Your mad at God for, I guess, being God, and having the right to tell you what to do or make consequences for your actions. Newsflash...Hes God. Its his Right. Your not God.

SO if you don't like the fact that you can't magically float when you jump off cliffs so to speak, or get away with doing any of the other stuff God is nice enough to warn you aint a good for you...well, I don't know what else to tell you except I think God probably is a little smarter about the proper way the universe is supposed to work that you are.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1482714


Yes he is, and thankfully he's smarter than you too, because there is no way that the Bible God is the real God. No divine being would EVER be that evil!

I don't think God is a jerk at all, not the real God anyway. The Bible God though is, you really don't see the problem with obey me or die? Ok why don't you use that on your kid and see where that gets you? How is it you would be seen as a monster, and yet the God of the Bible is praised for it? Double standard much?

On limitations and free will, there's a difference between a just consequence, and outright torture and evil. Killing someone for disobedience, letting them burn and suffer forever and forever CLEARLY is an example of the latter. They're not gonna learn anything from it, so what the hell is the point?

That's the whole point of our being here, and the whole point of free will, to live, learn and experience things. The Bible God takes a lot of that away, how can we really learn anything if the choices are effectively removed from us on account of what will happen if we disobey? You can't.

And yes the Bible God IS a rapist. I don't care how you try and twist it, a God who demands obedience and holds death over you to get it, is not one bit better than a rapist who pushes his victim to give him what he wants. You can disagree with it till the cows come home, but it does not and will not ever change it.

Last Edited by ajk on 07/29/2011 05:11 AM
No one is perfect. A babe before walking will first stumble and fall many times but NEVER gives up until he succeeds.

Always remember, ultimately, to never follow any person's belief. Your relationship with God is between you and God.

If nothing else, remember this: religion = subservience, control and conformity, the same template as EVERY government

"Most believers would kill truth if truth threatened their religion." L. K. Washburn

"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves." Robert Ingersoll

"If anyone wants to know how God feels, it's a warm light as if the sun is poking through dark clouds and lifting your spirits with pure joy."

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