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Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF

 
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 12:48 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Using an Ipod as an external hard drive

As preppers, we want to use the common items we have in our homes in nontraditional means in order to best utilie what we have post-collapse. It might be necessary to transmit information but we have no Internet, and to write down lots of information might take too long.

A great way to create a portable library is to use an Ipod. Here's how you could place pdf files, youtube videos, audio mp3 prepping guides, etc on your Ipod.


If you had that, and you wanted to transmit a message to someone far away, you could give them the message on a third parties Ipod, then they could deliver the message.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 01:02 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Contagion and Discernment post-collapse

[link to www.myfoxny.com]

Right now in the worst affected area of Hurricane Sandy, there's a cough going around. Simultaneously there's an epidemic of whooping cough. Historically there are issues with mold in homes, especially when rainwater comes in, or flooding occurs. What is going on in that locale?

This will be a common issue post-collapse. News will spread slowly. We're used to CNN and Fox News and the Internet. Then post-collapse there won't be communication other than locally or if strangers come in, much as occured in pioneer days.

When contagion was suspected, people stayed away in order to better their chance of survival. Strangers were not allowed to visit and were turned away at borders, because they were a primary vector in which contagion spread.

It could be simply a flu locally, but given that people are immune compromised from exposure, lack of adequate diet, dehydration, and being sleepless, then it could grow serious. As preppers you should imagine how YOU would treat it, diagnosis it, and refer to both medical books and herbal books on methods for eradicating it.

The Hurricane Sandy news items are opportunities to independently research prepping. It's not merely to show altruistic concern nor grotesquely act as spectators.
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11/15/2012 02:23 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Heirloom seeds

All long term preppers are gardeners in the process of becoming farmers. The only real security is learning how to grow things or raise animals or fish from aquaculture. You can only eat from a can for so long, and then your supplies run out. One way is not superior to the other. It is both/and not either/or. Because we must preserve food for the period post-harvest until the next harvest (usually early November until early June[8 months!] through early November), then learning canning, dehydrating, and pickling is a necessary step for a diverse healthy diet.

Most seeds today are hybrid. In order for the seed company to make money, they need to create seeds that they alone can sell, otherwise a wise gardener would simply save their seeds from year to year. If one saves hybrid seed, there's a good chance that it will still germinate, but may not germinate as well or the plant may revert to earlier varieties or it may be sterile or it may produce less yields.

A long time ago, our ancestors traveled to the New World. They liked certain foods like chicory or dandelion or a particular variety of squash or wheat or whatever. Since they often came from far away places like Ireland or Italy or Norway or China, they had certain cultural foods which they enjoyed, and so since those foods might be hard to come by in America, then they brought seeds with them from far away. Others began in New England and the Atlantic coast, and then because of Westward expansion, brought tree seedlings, seeds, and transplants and kept them alive until they could be replanted in their new soil. The West began in fits and starts in Kentucky and Indiana (first cowboys and train robberies), and from their spread North and South and ultimately West to the Pacific Ocean.

In some cases, varieties of seeds now called Heirlooms were originally brought from local areas in foreign countries and then over generations were brought into entirely new frontier areas of the USA. To be considered an heirloom, the species has not changed through open pollination, is at least 50 years old but may be as much as 100+ years old, and has been deliberately saved. These are the varieties that were carried by immigrants.

Of course, some people stayed in their respective nations, and they too saved Heirloom seed. They continued the traditions of their ancestors or they decided to plant those good tasting varieties. In many cases these plants taste better, but perhaps since most people purchase their food in grocery stores, plants are more uniformly chosen by the companies that ship them. Grocers cannot carry 10 varieties of carrots, because as one increase the number of species carried, then more inventory will be not be purchased. Other varieties may taste great, but may bruise easier and so since shipping is a concern as well as ripening, then those varieties which meet a happy medium of storing well, shipping well, and taste reasonably good are most often chosen by the corporate farms to grow.

This means as a prepper and gardener, one chooses the best seed to purchased based upon your particular needs. You don't grow what works best for someone else, but based upon logic and personal decisions of taste preference. You do it based upon yields and drought-resistance. You do it based upon speed of growth and plant disease-resistance. You do it based upon whether you want a short bush variety or a long vine variety so it will fit in your garden space. You do it because a certain kind of carrot may “fork” (misshapen formation) in the dense clay of your area, while others may be more suited to it.

Having Heirloom seeds need not be more expensive. It may be that you can trade for them. Many gardeners or organizations may give them away or may charge a nominal fee for shipping and packaging. They want the variety to perpetuate since it tastes good or has some botanical quality or simply for historical reasons too. Other places commercially are setup for large varieties or may prepackage Heirloom seeds for preppers in order to best meet general needs. Do your research and make an informed decision based upon logic and emotional desire.

Please prayerfully consider purchasing good Heirloom varieties since they're non-hybrid. You then need to understand how those plants go to seed, deliberately help them to seed, and then collect the seed, and properly store it so it germinates in the next growing season.

Many gardeners purchase transplants now. They purchase them from a greenhouse since they don't have the time to start seedling, nor have the ability, nor the patience to germinate and tend them. When beginning to germinate the seeds, they make mistakes. Their plants are “leggy” because the seeds are not warm and have adequate sun, and then they grow improperly. Don't assume you understand what the seeds need to germinate, but carefully research this process.

Otherwise you'll lose valuable time. You can't simply plant seeds in a cold garden with inadequate days of sunshine or improper moisture. Many areas have unusual growing seasons based upon typical periods of light, rain, heat, etc. Say you live on a mountain. Maybe you live in an arid environment. Perhaps the soil is poor and doesn't contain the proper nutrients. It might be that the chief cause is YOU and your lack of ability, concentration, and lack of research.

It may be that you deliberately do things like mini-greenhouses in order to germinate them well, or you might end up extending your harvest like building cold frames. Think a little outside the box to have the best growing season for your family. Agriculture is an art as well as a science.

All primitive people could grow crops from seed, it's simply a matter of desire and motivation. In a collapse, you'll be producing food from a garden, or foraging for it. Since a plant may grow only seasonally or only if a particular niche, then foraging is very much like hunting. Don't count on finding enough food from the Land. This isn't how Nature provides, because like it or not, most of us are so disconnected from the Land that we can't or don't see where it grows anymore.

One of the great joys as a gardener is a “volunteer” plant. Seeds will naturally fall upon fertile soil, and may spring up on it's own. I've had many of these, and some were strong and ended up growing just fine until harvest. Others will not be so great and will produce less. Some may grow where it's not ideal or wanted. They may come up later than your artificially germinated plants. Not all plants can be transplanted. Realize that plants will shallow root systems may end up getting “shocked” by the change in climate. Read and see if it possible.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 02:58 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
The safe method of acquiring mushrooms post-collapse

Gathering wild mushrooms is very risky. I would hesitate to do this cheifly because several times in history trained members or even leadership in mushroom societies have accidentally gathered the incorrect mushroom type and poisoned themselves. It seems very risky to me that even an expert can make a mistake.

The only kind of wild mushroom that I would gather are morels. You would be lucky to find them.

They are a very unique looking mushroom.

Other than that, the best way is to deliberately cultivate Shitake mushrooms from spore kits onto prepared oak logs. One could hand saw these and soak them and create the holes with a hand drill.
[link to c3.casa.com]



To do this well, you need a source of wax to plug the hole after placing the spore plug in, and by doing this you eliminate cross-contamination from other competing fungus. You still must carefully harvest in case some other species naturally comes up.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 03:01 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Here's are links which compare true morels from false morels

[link to www.michiganmorels.com]
[link to www.ohiomushroom.org]
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 03:45 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Showering post-collapse

A long time ago, people took baths once a week. It might be that they had a tub, but the tub required heating up water on a woodstove, and so since it takes to haul it from a nearby stream and heat it sufficient to be comfortable and lots of firewood and the relative discomfort to be around a hot stove, etc then it was rare to soak in a tub.

They often might rig up a shower outside with a privacy screen, then alternating hot and cold water dumped over head,then they could quickly scrub in between, and clean themselves off faster. People took turns heating the water or drawing it to the shower, and so people again could weekly shower. This method is much better and more efficient, but won't work if really dirty.

Many times people simply washed off in cold streams or lakes. Doing so post-collapse with so many people will result in polluting your fishing hole or ruining the water supply.

How much water would be needed for a six month period for a family of four to drink and to shower once a week?

4 x 2 gallons (drinking and cleaning) x 180 days = 1440 gallons

4 x 5 gallons (short showers 26 times (4.3 x 6 months) = 520 gallons

4 x 10 gallons (regular showers 26 times) = 1040

Total amount needed = 2480 gallons

That's a lot of water. You can buy large containers of water from agricultural companies that provide storage containers. You still need to think about how you're going to support the weight of it.
8.345404 lbs. (Weight of water) x 3,000 gallons (typical size) = 25,036 lbs. Very heavy!

Multiple that times the communities need plus the amount of firewood that will typically be used for cooking and heating water. See the issues?
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 03:59 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Daily cleaning up post-collapse

A pitcher and a wash basin are regular items in most country homes even today.Usually they're dusty and not used, but simply decorative. If you've visited a rural area, you probably have seen them:
[link to lh6.ggpht.com]

This is the primary way that you'll be cleaning up post-collapse.

Most people will slowly run out of soap. They won't know how to make it, and so because of gathering firewood, foraging, hunting, and working outside, they'll get grimier and grimier.

The best way to get clean is to use a little pinch of wood ash in the water. This will create a mild lye solution, but you must teach people how to wash. Getting that in your eye will burn just as much as soap if not more so.

Some soaking pine needles in water can also be used to clean as long as the solution doesn't soak long. Rinse well in either case.

Because most people haven't planned, they'll rarely have water to clean themselves. Many diseases will occur as well as bacterial skin infections and then later serious infections from coliform bacteria like Shigella or Salmonella.

You want a special basin to use only for this purpose, otherwise you'll contaminate any water used in it for other purposes. A smart prepper will have a special area used, or simply the bathtub with the basin sitting on the closed toilet. Probably by then, the sewers won't work anyway, and you'll need the space.

Because the sewers don't work, you must catch the water and not let it drain out the tub. Probably if you have a lick of sense, you'll divert the water from your tub into a grey water holding tank, and then water your garden with it. The mild soap solution won't hurt your plants, but of course it's more basic than normal, so watch your pH levels.

All greywater used to clean dishes or the kitchen area will be utilized in the garden as well.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 04:10 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Remembering history: The Six Day War

Today we're having a conflict between Israel and Muslim forces. It also happened in history in 1967, and it the brief conflict was call the "Sixth Day War". Here's some information about it.
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[liveleak] [link to www.liveleak.com]

All websites will have their spin on the conflict largely based upon if they support the nation of Israel or Palestine. It's so divisive a subject that it's probably impossible to find a balanced source of information.

It might grow much more serious given money and organization by Muslim forces today.

If one is a Christian, the topic makes people tighten up given the simultaneous issues of Armageddon and on the opposite side the 12th Imam.

Read history and prepare please.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 05:35 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Swales and permaculture

While digging a cistern is a very worthwhile project, it may be that it happens later as a community project. One way to deal with all of that rainwater being placed into a better area and slowly dispursing is a swale.




This is in effect a form of mass drip irrigation. You must have a hillside that's depositing water on your growing area to build it though.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 06:44 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
A very useful collection of recipes

In a collapse, you'll be making a lot of common recipes to most frugally and carefully maintain survival. Here's the very best recipes I've seen in one place on how to make things like hardtack, parched corn, jerky, harvest common animals, etc.

I'd print it out and place it in plastic covered sheets. You're going to find recipes like these and use them often if a collapse occurs.
[link to www.preparednessandsurvival.info]
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 07:00 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
More about rapeseed (canola) oil

It's entirely possible that survivors post-collapse will grow rape as a source of oil. I've discussed it's use before, but to jog your memory, rape when planted will heartily break up clay soils, and then often it's tilled under. Since you won't have a plow and a team, and will be doing things by hand, then planting rape will seriously assist you in breaking sod.

Today, rape is often known by a product that's lower in saturated fat called canola oil. This oil however is most often made by GMO seeds. I don't know if there are non-GMO seeds available. I hope that someone can find a source.

It does produce quite a bit of oil per acre, and so it's likely that this kind of oil will be grown for cooking and for lighting in lanterns. Here's how to express the oil with a press.
[link to www.preparednessandsurvival.info]

NOTE: Rapeseed oil plants were often used after oil was expressed out as animal feed, however I've heard that livestock won't touch the stuff.

As previously discussed, sesame produces a better light (less smoky) and with better lumens emitted and not as flickering.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 07:18 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Non-GMO rapeseed suppliers can be found here:
[link to www.nongmosourcebook.com]

They keep track of many suppliers to non-GMO seed in general.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 07:44 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
All of the Tom Brown books are excellent. He even wrote one on practical urban survival, though it must be out of print since it is so old.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1496915


I still have mine! I took it out and reviewed it while the power was out during hurricane Sandy!!!
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 09:11 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
wanted to continue to encourage and thank you for all of your valuable posts. i am using this information as my personal go-to guide in addition to my hard copy resources. we haven't been preparing as long as many on here, i am sure, but i feel at least we are making an effort. which brings me to a serious personal concern regarding my immediate and extended family. they aren't contributing their efforts towards planning ahead. there is only so much i can personally accomplish, with an already full schedule. how do you motivate others to prepare? unfortunately, my words of precaution are undermined and ignored, resulting in less security measures being taken by those around me. if and when shtf, how can it be expected that i carry the burden of so many? i simply cannot do it all! thank you again, for all your help!
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 09:16 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
well, for the kids, they'll need some entertainment and stuff to keep them occupied and calm them down -- I suggest learning to do string figures and games, ukulele and/or harmonicas (very portable instruments) and small songbook, and a chess set...along with a few decks of playing cards. If you can, jacks and marbles are also easy to bring around and play anywhere. Storytelling and Singing are also fine skills for the whole family to develop, always portable!
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 09:46 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Information for the Bugout folks: Radius of travel

We don't have much information about long distance hiking, but we can get some understanding from data collected second-hand from folks participating on the Appalachian Trail.

[link to hikinghq.net]

The average through hiker (someone attempting the whole trail, versus a day or section hiker which is someone doing sections of the trail over time) were not in great shape to begin with, only “fair to good” and they “averaged 12.8 miles per day if in good condition and 9.5 if in fair condition”. After a month of getting used to it and the routine, the average per day was “16 miles per day”.

The hikers burned “3076 – 6137 calories per day”. They ate more when they could since they couldn't carry it. Those high calories are probably in-town, mass consumption of calories to make up all the energy expended.

It's impossible to carry everything, so they resupplied. This meant extra side trips that detoured them off the trail. This can be considerable and significantly add to how much you walk. The same is true for foraging or hunting or trapping or gathering water. Calculate how much of your 13 miles (10 if in fair shape) will be actual forward distance toward your goal, and how much will be finding a campsite, putting up shelter or making shelter, gathering firewood, and the above resupply from local materials.

I doubt more than 1% could walk more than a month. Figure in the limitations of weather for one as Winter is coming on. Figure security issues for being on any trail post-collapse as time goes on. Figure fatigue and illness or very likely injury. Even if all of that wasn't an issue, what about supplies and not being able to forage?

The average weight loss was 17lbs. Some lost as much as “fifty pounds” traveling. Most men lost fat and muscle weight. They simply couldn't eat enough versus calories expended.

Only 10-15% of those who attempt the Appalachian Trail complete it.

Average weight carried: 30-50 lbs with half being food and water.

Remember that they burned up on average three pairs of shoes along the journey.

Now, that's a long long trail. Let's vaguely extrapolate based upon that data:

Remember, you probably can't resupply, and you'll certainly have great difficulty finding food. Even what little food you find, it's expending calories, so unless you can reasonably hope to find food in very high amounts (1,000 calories or more) then it may not be worth it to spend time finding food as you may use up more than your gain. If you do kill a large animal, you can't save it, or carry it out either. If you stop to make jerky it will take a lot of effort, green wood fires, and TIME.

If you carried 50 lbs, what's the maximum you could travel based upon 25 lbs of that being food and water? Then calculate how many days from that realizing that it's very strenuous and burning up calories.

Many places won't have water, study your topography for the planned trip and see if there's any water sources along the way. If you haven't planned for that, then look and see, and if it doesn't fit with what you can carry, then replot a new course.

Based upon that information, I think you can see how many miles you probably can go bugging out by comparing average distance (minus supplying) times amount of food carried and thinking about water. That's your effective radius from Home or where you ditch a vehicle because you run out of gas.

If you're bugging out with children or a spouse/girlfriend, then calculate in their limitations as well. Children and many women cannot carry as much weight. Some strong women can carry more weight and or have more stamina and grit, but it's not the norm.

This gives you a more realistic idea of what you're up against.

Personally, I'd go by canoe if possible.
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11/15/2012 09:47 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
All of the Tom Brown books are excellent. He even wrote one on practical urban survival, though it must be out of print since it is so old.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1496915


I still have mine! I took it out and reviewed it while the power was out during hurricane Sandy!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27531391


Good for you! He wrote one specifically on urban survival. In it the person wedged themselves between cushions or matresses to act as insulation. He's a bright guy and still around though getting up in years. I hear one of his sons is teaching now.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 09:56 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
wanted to continue to encourage and thank you for all of your valuable posts. i am using this information as my personal go-to guide in addition to my hard copy resources. we haven't been preparing as long as many on here, i am sure, but i feel at least we are making an effort. which brings me to a serious personal concern regarding my immediate and extended family. they aren't contributing their efforts towards planning ahead. there is only so much i can personally accomplish, with an already full schedule. how do you motivate others to prepare? unfortunately, my words of precaution are undermined and ignored, resulting in less security measures being taken by those around me. if and when shtf, how can it be expected that i carry the burden of so many? i simply cannot do it all! thank you again, for all your help!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7091719

Good for you for planning and beginning to prep. My postings are meant as only the beginning of information. You'll want to look much deeper, but over time I'm trying to create a resource for people as a backup information source. Much of it has to do with dealing with building community post-collapse, something few people talk about.

The issue you raise about family is the most persistant concerning one. Those of us in rural areas know all too well that family may "come callin' and give us a holler." Of course if they just show up, and they might if the phones go out, then now you have much bigger issues. I doubt most people will turn away family.

If people call and say, "Hey things are bad here. We'd like to come stay with you since it's safer there..." Then what I would say is, "Of course. Please bring _____ and ____ as that's more calories and I can't feed you all. Please bring ____ and _____ as trade items. We don't have ____ tool since it wasn't important, or because you're coming it would be helpful since you'll be working along side of me."

Something along those lines that implies they're not living off of my supplies. Getting people to prep is impossible unless they want to. The easier tack is saying, "You know things are rough, and I think it's frugal to buy food now since food prices are rising, don't you?" By doing that instead with other things like camping equipment, a good practical knife, a firearm, etc then maybe they'll prep by being "frugal".

Good luck to you and write back if you have comments or questions.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 10:05 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
well, for the kids, they'll need some entertainment and stuff to keep them occupied and calm them down -- I suggest learning to do string figures and games, ukulele and/or harmonicas (very portable instruments) and small songbook, and a chess set...along with a few decks of playing cards. If you can, jacks and marbles are also easy to bring around and play anywhere. Storytelling and Singing are also fine skills for the whole family to develop, always portable!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26919383


Yes! Kids will have a strong need and a desire for play, and if you don't maintain some normalcy, then they'll freak out. Many games require no props. I would encourage you to look at The New Games book. Many of these are very popular when kids are introduced to them.
[link to www.amazon.com]

Likewise many simulation games can be used for play as well as to teach a lesson or for homeschooling.
Here's some on World Hunger:
[link to www.brookingsbackpackproject.org]

Many games like Mancala or Chess can be made by using objects in Nature or even using things like nuts and bolts. I've made a chess set like that:
[link to www.designbuzz.com]
That one used spark plugs too

If you have things like musical instruments and ready made games then they'll love you for it. Hopefully most parens will bug-in as I think bugging out is ridiculous for a family, but you should have bug out bags for practically everyone to carry.
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 10:11 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
wanted to continue to encourage and thank you for all of your valuable posts. i am using this information as my personal go-to guide in addition to my hard copy resources. we haven't been preparing as long as many on here, i am sure, but i feel at least we are making an effort. which brings me to a serious personal concern regarding my immediate and extended family. they aren't contributing their efforts towards planning ahead. there is only so much i can personally accomplish, with an already full schedule. how do you motivate others to prepare? unfortunately, my words of precaution are undermined and ignored, resulting in less security measures being taken by those around me. if and when shtf, how can it be expected that i carry the burden of so many? i simply cannot do it all! thank you again, for all your help!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7091719

Good for you for planning and beginning to prep. My postings are meant as only the beginning of information. You'll want to look much deeper, but over time I'm trying to create a resource for people as a backup information source. Much of it has to do with dealing with building community post-collapse, something few people talk about.

The issue you raise about family is the most persistant concerning one. Those of us in rural areas know all too well that family may "come callin' and give us a holler." Of course if they just show up, and they might if the phones go out, then now you have much bigger issues. I doubt most people will turn away family.

If people call and say, "Hey things are bad here. We'd like to come stay with you since it's safer there..." Then what I would say is, "Of course. Please bring _____ and ____ as that's more calories and I can't feed you all. Please bring ____ and _____ as trade items. We don't have ____ tool since it wasn't important, or because you're coming it would be helpful since you'll be working along side of me."

Something along those lines that implies they're not living off of my supplies. Getting people to prep is impossible unless they want to. The easier tack is saying, "You know things are rough, and I think it's frugal to buy food now since food prices are rising, don't you?" By doing that instead with other things like camping equipment, a good practical knife, a firearm, etc then maybe they'll prep by being "frugal".

Good luck to you and write back if you have comments or questions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1110734


thank you for your quick reply! i intend on asserting myself as best as possible, in the near future. they need to heed my warning, since their life depends om it! i just wish i had the ability to make them understand. it's a sticky sitch, but i will persist! thanks!
Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 10:54 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Warming your home (not heating) in an emergency

A lot of people that are experiencing Hurricane Sandy found out that their preps were lacking or they simply were cold since they didn't have alternative heat. People think that it won't get that cold indoors without heat, but the reality is that is can approach 5 degs F of outside temperature.

You can't use a rocket stove indoors. It's not what they're made for. The only kind of stove like that is a rocket mass heater, and that requires planning. See previous postings on that subject.

One alternative is a tent wood stove. They sell them to hunters who've cut out a special flap for the venting. In a pinch one could modify an existing window in a room and bring everyone in that room and warm it up reasonably well. It won't be perfect. See places like Cabela's like this one:
[link to www.cabelas.com]
About $170 US

A far cheaper alternative if you have a spot welder would be to make an ammo can stove. You probably could make it for $50, but it'll take about an hour or two to cut the parts and assemble it.

You could braze it with a torch if you didn't have a welder. It's how you do connect pipes on water lines on your hot water heater with solder.

Anonymous Coward
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11/15/2012 11:03 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Ammo wood stove cont.

This company sells them too for about ~$140 including shipping.
[link to www.ammocanstove.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 27838911
United States
11/15/2012 11:05 PM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
There are many free homeschooling sites with pdf files. It would be great to have them just in case there are issues.

Get medications that your kids need. See if your doctor will prescribe 3 months supplies for them.

Get some presents tomorrow for Christmas. Little gifts that you could give out not only then, but throughout the year as incentives. They'll really appreciate them.

Children can thrive in the woods as long as they have calm parents. They cannot keep up with your pace up and down tails. You've got to plan adequately if you do have to walk some.

Kids are used to incorrectly using a backpack since kids at school wear them in the wrong fashion, which adds too much stress to their lower back. You'll have to reteach them how to buckle it properly and position it higher than they used to wearing it.

Try to make gathering wood into a game. Teach them as much about nature as possible. Being quiet is as important as talking.

Kids love open fires. Tell stories. It can simply be times when they did wonderful things when they were younger. They love hearing how much you love and adore them. Even teens.

Hug and kiss them often. Be generous with your affection. Lavish it on them
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1496915



Precisely WHAT KIND of SHTF scenario do you envision that will allow the preppers to just merrily roll along . . . such as what you describe in your almost Disney-like description above?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1110734
United States
11/16/2012 12:37 AM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
There are many free homeschooling sites with pdf files. It would be great to have them just in case there are issues.

Get medications that your kids need. See if your doctor will prescribe 3 months supplies for them.

Get some presents tomorrow for Christmas. Little gifts that you could give out not only then, but throughout the year as incentives. They'll really appreciate them.

Children can thrive in the woods as long as they have calm parents. They cannot keep up with your pace up and down tails. You've got to plan adequately if you do have to walk some.

Kids are used to incorrectly using a backpack since kids at school wear them in the wrong fashion, which adds too much stress to their lower back. You'll have to reteach them how to buckle it properly and position it higher than they used to wearing it.

Try to make gathering wood into a game. Teach them as much about nature as possible. Being quiet is as important as talking.

Kids love open fires. Tell stories. It can simply be times when they did wonderful things when they were younger. They love hearing how much you love and adore them. Even teens.

Hug and kiss them often. Be generous with your affection. Lavish it on them
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1496915



Precisely WHAT KIND of SHTF scenario do you envision that will allow the preppers to just merrily roll along . . . such as what you describe in your almost Disney-like description above?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27838911


Read much further and then tell me if you think it's Disney-like
itsamadmadworld

User ID: 27838911
United States
11/16/2012 12:55 AM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
There are many free homeschooling sites with pdf files. It would be great to have them just in case there are issues.

Get medications that your kids need. See if your doctor will prescribe 3 months supplies for them.

Get some presents tomorrow for Christmas. Little gifts that you could give out not only then, but throughout the year as incentives. They'll really appreciate them.

Children can thrive in the woods as long as they have calm parents. They cannot keep up with your pace up and down tails. You've got to plan adequately if you do have to walk some.

Kids are used to incorrectly using a backpack since kids at school wear them in the wrong fashion, which adds too much stress to their lower back. You'll have to reteach them how to buckle it properly and position it higher than they used to wearing it.

Try to make gathering wood into a game. Teach them as much about nature as possible. Being quiet is as important as talking.

Kids love open fires. Tell stories. It can simply be times when they did wonderful things when they were younger. They love hearing how much you love and adore them. Even teens.

Hug and kiss them often. Be generous with your affection. Lavish it on them
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1496915



Precisely WHAT KIND of SHTF scenario do you envision that will allow the preppers to just merrily roll along . . . such as what you describe in your almost Disney-like description above?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27838911


Read much further and then tell me if you think it's Disney-like
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1110734


There are countless possible SHTF scenarios . . . but I asked you to be specific in what type you believe will allow the preppers to continue on.

It's just that there've been numerous threads here wherein preppers post about how much they've got stockpiled and they are oh-so-confident, almost arrogantly so, in what they have stored and that they're in rural areas or have bug-out cabins in the woods to run to or whatever, and I wonder each time what makes them believe they will be protected from any devastating sort of SHTF scenario. Even if someone has months of supplies and are in a small town or in the country, if the rest of the world is devastated, what will be left for the preppers? It's all circular, you know, no man is an island . . .
MzTreeChick

User ID: 27008450
Australia
11/16/2012 01:10 AM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
There are many free homeschooling sites with pdf files. It would be great to have them just in case there are issues.

Get medications that your kids need. See if your doctor will prescribe 3 months supplies for them.

Get some presents tomorrow for Christmas. Little gifts that you could give out not only then, but throughout the year as incentives. They'll really appreciate them.

Children can thrive in the woods as long as they have calm parents. They cannot keep up with your pace up and down tails. You've got to plan adequately if you do have to walk some.

Kids are used to incorrectly using a backpack since kids at school wear them in the wrong fashion, which adds too much stress to their lower back. You'll have to reteach them how to buckle it properly and position it higher than they used to wearing it.

Try to make gathering wood into a game. Teach them as much about nature as possible. Being quiet is as important as talking.

Kids love open fires. Tell stories. It can simply be times when they did wonderful things when they were younger. They love hearing how much you love and adore them. Even teens.

Hug and kiss them often. Be generous with your affection. Lavish it on them
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1496915



Precisely WHAT KIND of SHTF scenario do you envision that will allow the preppers to just merrily roll along . . . such as what you describe in your almost Disney-like description above?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27838911


Read much further and then tell me if you think it's Disney-like
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1110734


There are countless possible SHTF scenarios . . . but I asked you to be specific in what type you believe will allow the preppers to continue on.

It's just that there've been numerous threads here wherein preppers post about how much they've got stockpiled and they are oh-so-confident, almost arrogantly so, in what they have stored and that they're in rural areas or have bug-out cabins in the woods to run to or whatever, and I wonder each time what makes them believe they will be protected from any devastating sort of SHTF scenario. Even if someone has months of supplies and are in a small town or in the country, if the rest of the world is devastated, what will be left for the preppers? It's all circular, you know, no man is an island . . .
 Quoting: itsamadmadworld


This thread is not like that, its about being self-sufficient, self-relient and tips and info you can use NOW and can help regardless of what the actually SHTF event is.

If you can't see how beneficial this thread is, more than just stocking beans and rice, then I guess nothing more needs to be said.




hf rockon
* Eat recycled food, it's good for the environment and O.K for you. (Judge Dredd)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1110734
United States
11/16/2012 01:27 AM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
There are many free homeschooling sites with pdf files. It would be great to have them just in case there are issues.

Get medications that your kids need. See if your doctor will prescribe 3 months supplies for them.

Get some presents tomorrow for Christmas. Little gifts that you could give out not only then, but throughout the year as incentives. They'll really appreciate them.

Children can thrive in the woods as long as they have calm parents. They cannot keep up with your pace up and down tails. You've got to plan adequately if you do have to walk some.

Kids are used to incorrectly using a backpack since kids at school wear them in the wrong fashion, which adds too much stress to their lower back. You'll have to reteach them how to buckle it properly and position it higher than they used to wearing it.

Try to make gathering wood into a game. Teach them as much about nature as possible. Being quiet is as important as talking.

Kids love open fires. Tell stories. It can simply be times when they did wonderful things when they were younger. They love hearing how much you love and adore them. Even teens.

Hug and kiss them often. Be generous with your affection. Lavish it on them
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1496915



Precisely WHAT KIND of SHTF scenario do you envision that will allow the preppers to just merrily roll along . . . such as what you describe in your almost Disney-like description above?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 27838911


Read much further and then tell me if you think it's Disney-like
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1110734


There are countless possible SHTF scenarios . . . but I asked you to be specific in what type you believe will allow the preppers to continue on.

It's just that there've been numerous threads here wherein preppers post about how much they've got stockpiled and they are oh-so-confident, almost arrogantly so, in what they have stored and that they're in rural areas or have bug-out cabins in the woods to run to or whatever, and I wonder each time what makes them believe they will be protected from any devastating sort of SHTF scenario. Even if someone has months of supplies and are in a small town or in the country, if the rest of the world is devastated, what will be left for the preppers? It's all circular, you know, no man is an island . . .
 Quoting: itsamadmadworld


If you read my postings, it's precisely about rebuilding communities post-collapse. I agree, no man is an island.

For example, should a collapse occur, then you're right many people will starve. Recently I wrote that logically if there's no supply chains, up to 90% could be dead by six months. I'm serious as a heart attack about that, especially with Winter here.

I live in a rural area and can do all of the things I mentioned in my postings. Most people don't have skills only some supplies.

The only way a community can make it it by pooling resources later, however getting people to trust again is critical.

Recently I discussed a way to eat the food in freezers and refrigerators in case the power went off. A good organizer would help people to understand that eating that food in block parties would be wisdom, because otherwise it would spoil and be utterly wasted. Because food is stored as excess in fat and water, then those people could live a week or more on those calories.

In my community there are people who raise animals and feed and have extensive gardens and farms. We're not urban whatsoever.

If a lot of people die, then it'll be the responsibility of the survivors to make things come together and begin civilization again.

Think about it this way, a lot of survivalists are worried about the Horde of people who don't have supplies. Truthfully most of them will die, even the gangs, because to gather up resources and fight is very calorie dependent. Unless people have skills and seed and supplies, then they won't make it. Meanwhile those who manage for even six month to nine months may be alone. Many will be isolated and without medical personel. Only by pooling resources and abilities will the survivors make it.

Anything is possible, but more are plausible. A plague for example is very possible, but some will either have immunity or not catch it. Even with the great influenza epidemic, the majority lived. Think about the great tuberculosis epidemic too. The issue is that people today don't raise food like those folks did. It's a major concern.

I don't believe that a full scale nuclear attack will happen. I think in the end wiser leadership will prevail. I do think military coups are possible, EMP events, large scale natural disasters, another Great Depression, etc are all possible.

If one preps, then one has a cushion. I'm not concerned with survival at all. My goal is educate people and help my family. If I die, so be it. But if I can help them get organized and help some to live, then it's better than not helping at all.

OK specifics, I think that many SHTF scenarios are survivable by a subset of the population. Most are. It depends upon the depth of a crisis. Say we had massive power failure and the nuclear plants all went into a shutdown like Fukushima. Yes, the radioactive isotopes would devastate the land with high cesium, and all manner of isotopes. Still despite what happened at Chernobyl, species adapted and were able to live. Sure humans may not, and can't live in the worst zones. Many will have birth defects and die. Many thyroid cancers will happen, leukemias, bone cancer, pancreatic cancer, etc. Death from all of the radioactive insults as well all malnutrition and lowered immune systems. Istopes will concentrate in the food chain in the land and water. Still life will go on in some fashion.

Read more of my posts. They're about ways to organize after a major event or major events and bringing the community together to dig wells, purify water, deal with sanitation, grow crops, hunt, fish, make rope, create energy from existing devices, make candles, harvest soap from ferns, use vet antibiotics to save lives, harvest herbs, preserve food, etc. It's not about selfishness and doom, it's about affirmation, life, and Hope.
itsamadmadworld

User ID: 27838911
United States
11/16/2012 01:50 AM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
If you read my postings, it's precisely about rebuilding communities post-collapse. I agree, no man is an island.

For example, should a collapse occur, then you're right many people will starve. Recently I wrote that logically if there's no supply chains, up to 90% could be dead by six months. I'm serious as a heart attack about that, especially with Winter here.

I live in a rural area and can do all of the things I mentioned in my postings. Most people don't have skills only some supplies.

The only way a community can make it it by pooling resources later, however getting people to trust again is critical.

Recently I discussed a way to eat the food in freezers and refrigerators in case the power went off. A good organizer would help people to understand that eating that food in block parties would be wisdom, because otherwise it would spoil and be utterly wasted. Because food is stored as excess in fat and water, then those people could live a week or more on those calories.

In my community there are people who raise animals and feed and have extensive gardens and farms. We're not urban whatsoever.

If a lot of people die, then it'll be the responsibility of the survivors to make things come together and begin civilization again.

Think about it this way, a lot of survivalists are worried about the Horde of people who don't have supplies. Truthfully most of them will die, even the gangs, because to gather up resources and fight is very calorie dependent. Unless people have skills and seed and supplies, then they won't make it. Meanwhile those who manage for even six month to nine months may be alone. Many will be isolated and without medical personel. Only by pooling resources and abilities will the survivors make it.

Anything is possible, but more are plausible. A plague for example is very possible, but some will either have immunity or not catch it. Even with the great influenza epidemic, the majority lived. Think about the great tuberculosis epidemic too. The issue is that people today don't raise food like those folks did. It's a major concern.

I don't believe that a full scale nuclear attack will happen. I think in the end wiser leadership will prevail. I do think military coups are possible, EMP events, large scale natural disasters, another Great Depression, etc are all possible.

If one preps, then one has a cushion. I'm not concerned with survival at all. My goal is educate people and help my family. If I die, so be it. But if I can help them get organized and help some to live, then it's better than not helping at all.

OK specifics, I think that many SHTF scenarios are survivable by a subset of the population. Most are. It depends upon the depth of a crisis. Say we had massive power failure and the nuclear plants all went into a shutdown like Fukushima. Yes, the radioactive isotopes would devastate the land with high cesium, and all manner of isotopes. Still despite what happened at Chernobyl, species adapted and were able to live. Sure humans may not, and can't live in the worst zones. Many will have birth defects and die. Many thyroid cancers will happen, leukemias, bone cancer, pancreatic cancer, etc. Death from all of the radioactive insults as well all malnutrition and lowered immune systems. Istopes will concentrate in the food chain in the land and water. Still life will go on in some fashion.

Read more of my posts. They're about ways to organize after a major event or major events and bringing the community together to dig wells, purify water, deal with sanitation, grow crops, hunt, fish, make rope, create energy from existing devices, make candles, harvest soap from ferns, use vet antibiotics to save lives, harvest herbs, preserve food, etc. It's not about selfishness and doom, it's about affirmation, life, and Hope.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1110734


Thank you for your well-reasoned reply.

Look, I'm not knocking your efforts or your intent, not at all. What I question though, is the logic of those who would WANT to go on in the midst of mass deaths and devastation, radiation, martial law, lawlessness, etc. It's one thing to be prepared as best one can for natural events, such as the east coast hurricane, that can be devastating but affect only a relatively small segment of the country/population - but it's quite another if you're talking about a scenario from something like "The Stand" or "2012" . . . and in those cases, who'd really want to be one of the remaining souls?

Also, I'd like to add something I find frustrating about these discussions, and that is the fact that there are so many people today who literally have no family, no close friends. There are more people than ever before who are divorced, widowed, single, childless by choice, and have intentionally severed ties with dysfunctional family. Such people, in a SHTF event, would have no support, no community. As for friends, the same applies, as more and more people are choosing to be solitary, not cultivating friendships, or have been betrayed too many times and have just said (rightly so) to heck with friends and socializing. So again, these people would not have a solid circle of friends to connect with. Plus, there are a lot of people would never want to impose on others or would feel very out of place relying on strangers.

So I wonder, when these people so openly talk about, even brag about, their confidence in stockpiling and having a community of support - do they EVER consider those who have no community at all.

Just my two cents worth.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1110734
United States
11/16/2012 01:51 AM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
Having realistic ideas about the SHTF

A lot of people imagine that if the SHTF, then we're all doomed. Not really. Think about it in history. We've had a Carrington Event which destroyed electonics. We've had the Black Death which devastated Europe and Asia, but most survived. We had a mini-Ice Age in which Norweigan settlers in diverse places in colonies were cut off from trading ships, and the first abortive effort to colonize America ended, but people again sent explorers and settlers to the New World. Native Americans saw rampant disease as they came and lacked the antibodies to cope with it, same in Hawaii, and yet not all of the First People died in the New World.

Life goes on. Some humans live in spite of disasterous events. Even during the major Ice age that killed the dinosaurs, mammals, fish, birds, reptiles, etc lived.

Disastsers are not binary events in which either everthing is Disney-like or Doom. The come across a continuum and can be localized or wide-spread. Even the ones across huge geographical areas don't kills everyone or everything.

The best way to prep is to imagine that your time, talent, and treasure invested in learning skills, seed, and supplies are cushions to help you through rough times. People having a surplus for the most part means altrusim is possible. If there is wealth somewhere, then survivors elsewhere can be assisted. That's the human response.

Yes, people can be terrible in a crisis. They can riot. They can use racism to divide them. During the medieval period, religious fervor for the Crusades ended up causing local Jews to be persecuted in England, the latter having nothing to do with a religious war on the Holy Land. Medieval crusaders sacked their own Western cities on the way back from the Holy Land as well. People can act in ridiculous ways out of greed.

My hope is that this topic is about self-reliance. To me, that idea equates to liberty. The more people can prepare for themselves and put away wealth, the more secure they are. Secure people tend to want to maintain trade and peace, for war is terribly expensive in life, property, and goods.

Spending a lot of effort in survival is foolish. Learning old skills to be at one in the Forest i.e. being practiced in the arts of bushcraft is a noble endevor. When one appreciated the Forest and Meadows and comes to know the species of flora and fauna then you become sensitive to the beauty there. In time you see yourself as a species reliant upon the web of Nature.

Here I hope to talk about ways to allow richer more diverse diets because we raise the best food for ourselves. We learn how to cast pots so we can store things like water or even moonshine. It's about learning how to weave cloth and dye it so we can be well dressed.

The alternative is having some other people make or grow those things for us, and that leads to inferior/superior relationships in the short term, and in the long term leads to competition and war.

Prep to make your life richer, not poored by worry about doom and suffering. If we had spent as much money to teach people self-reliance as we have on other government boondoggles then we'd build real wealth and security for our nations.

The Shit will hit the fan someday. It won't probably be from some scary event, it'll most likely be that we're all so impoverished due to being in debt to corporations. That's not the intention of the Founding Fathers in America. It's not the intent of any patriots in any country. That's a brutal kind of Facist state or a government worse than the Romans though they called it a Republic. If one prepares then one can learn how to cope, or you can blindly follow along and be so disconnected from the Land that your feet never touch the Earth's bones, nor grow your food from her soil, but think it comes from grocery stores.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1110734
United States
11/16/2012 02:02 AM
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Re: Last minute tips for parents when the SHTF
If you read my postings, it's precisely about rebuilding communities post-collapse. I agree, no man is an island.

For example, should a collapse occur, then you're right many people will starve. Recently I wrote that logically if there's no supply chains, up to 90% could be dead by six months. I'm serious as a heart attack about that, especially with Winter here.

I live in a rural area and can do all of the things I mentioned in my postings. Most people don't have skills only some supplies.

The only way a community can make it it by pooling resources later, however getting people to trust again is critical.

Recently I discussed a way to eat the food in freezers and refrigerators in case the power went off. A good organizer would help people to understand that eating that food in block parties would be wisdom, because otherwise it would spoil and be utterly wasted. Because food is stored as excess in fat and water, then those people could live a week or more on those calories.

In my community there are people who raise animals and feed and have extensive gardens and farms. We're not urban whatsoever.

If a lot of people die, then it'll be the responsibility of the survivors to make things come together and begin civilization again.

Think about it this way, a lot of survivalists are worried about the Horde of people who don't have supplies. Truthfully most of them will die, even the gangs, because to gather up resources and fight is very calorie dependent. Unless people have skills and seed and supplies, then they won't make it. Meanwhile those who manage for even six month to nine months may be alone. Many will be isolated and without medical personel. Only by pooling resources and abilities will the survivors make it.

Anything is possible, but more are plausible. A plague for example is very possible, but some will either have immunity or not catch it. Even with the great influenza epidemic, the majority lived. Think about the great tuberculosis epidemic too. The issue is that people today don't raise food like those folks did. It's a major concern.

I don't believe that a full scale nuclear attack will happen. I think in the end wiser leadership will prevail. I do think military coups are possible, EMP events, large scale natural disasters, another Great Depression, etc are all possible.

If one preps, then one has a cushion. I'm not concerned with survival at all. My goal is educate people and help my family. If I die, so be it. But if I can help them get organized and help some to live, then it's better than not helping at all.

OK specifics, I think that many SHTF scenarios are survivable by a subset of the population. Most are. It depends upon the depth of a crisis. Say we had massive power failure and the nuclear plants all went into a shutdown like Fukushima. Yes, the radioactive isotopes would devastate the land with high cesium, and all manner of isotopes. Still despite what happened at Chernobyl, species adapted and were able to live. Sure humans may not, and can't live in the worst zones. Many will have birth defects and die. Many thyroid cancers will happen, leukemias, bone cancer, pancreatic cancer, etc. Death from all of the radioactive insults as well all malnutrition and lowered immune systems. Istopes will concentrate in the food chain in the land and water. Still life will go on in some fashion.

Read more of my posts. They're about ways to organize after a major event or major events and bringing the community together to dig wells, purify water, deal with sanitation, grow crops, hunt, fish, make rope, create energy from existing devices, make candles, harvest soap from ferns, use vet antibiotics to save lives, harvest herbs, preserve food, etc. It's not about selfishness and doom, it's about affirmation, life, and Hope.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1110734


Thank you for your well-reasoned reply.

Look, I'm not knocking your efforts or your intent, not at all. What I question though, is the logic of those who would WANT to go on in the midst of mass deaths and devastation, radiation, martial law, lawlessness, etc. It's one thing to be prepared as best one can for natural events, such as the east coast hurricane, that can be devastating but affect only a relatively small segment of the country/population - but it's quite another if you're talking about a scenario from something like "The Stand" or "2012" . . . and in those cases, who'd really want to be one of the remaining souls?

Also, I'd like to add something I find frustrating about these discussions, and that is the fact that there are so many people today who literally have no family, no close friends. There are more people than ever before who are divorced, widowed, single, childless by choice, and have intentionally severed ties with dysfunctional family. Such people, in a SHTF event, would have no support, no community. As for friends, the same applies, as more and more people are choosing to be solitary, not cultivating friendships, or have been betrayed too many times and have just said (rightly so) to heck with friends and socializing. So again, these people would not have a solid circle of friends to connect with. Plus, there are a lot of people would never want to impose on others or would feel very out of place relying on strangers.

So I wonder, when these people so openly talk about, even brag about, their confidence in stockpiling and having a community of support - do they EVER consider those who have no community at all.

Just my two cents worth.
 Quoting: itsamadmadworld

I equally thank you for clarifying your position. I agree, people without familiy or friends can be ostracized. That is the way of history. In reality, people who were severely indebted in Australia and in North Carolina went to new lands and began again. Many were orphans, widows, widowers, reviled, etc.

People went out to the West in the USA, and found communities who allowed them in, taught them skills and worked together to form new communitues. Yes, they displaced the indigenous people there, much as happened in Australia. Yes, all of that was terrible, but some intermarriage happened in both places. Regardless, lives were made better by many of these downtrodden folks despite adversity.

Think, lots of people traveled by covered wagon with little more than some bare essential tools, their livestock, little money, and some hardtack bread. Over time, they bettered their lot by learning skills, clearing the land, building a home, finding water and digging long term well, learning crafts, using herbs, etc.

Where did that information come from? Well some read books, but a great deal was transmitted orally from other pioneers on the frontier. If there's a collapse, then the ones who survive will look for communities that will accept them. Sure, many will not be helping strangers, but I think that different religious communities, different conservatives, different liberals, gay folks, races of all kinds will be welcomed in communities or they will form their own communities. That's what happened organically in history in the New World.

I'm far more optimistic. Think about this way, the worst form of punishment in prison is solitary. We are social creatures and we make excuses to visit with each other, even to talk about nothing important. In a SHTF scenario when so much life is dying, then how much stronger will that urge be to help.

Yes, there are sociopaths and criminals that don't care, but they're always a small subset of the population. I think most of them unless they have skills won't make it. It need not be like The Road or The Stand. There's no reason it has to be like that. Even if it is, and I can teach people how to harvest flours from clover and cattail, then I can help a generation hold together long enough that some might grow older. In that brief time, some pockets of humanity may strengthed. Be optimistic.





GLP