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*** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN

 
Anonymous Coward
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08/17/2011 02:21 AM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Maybe the Moon is Heathen.
Astromut
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08/17/2011 09:25 AM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Yes I read the paper, and the reason they ruled out Tyche is because Tyche is supposedly located at least 15,000 AU from the Sun.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Yes, and there's a reason for that. Such an object could hypothetically be out that far and remain undetected, which brings me to...
And their calculations required that the Jovian mass planet that could cause this anomaly on the Moon's orbital eccentricity should be located only 200 AU.
 Quoting: anti

Which is wholly unrealistic, as they themselves admitted, hence they rule it out.
"Actually, the values for its mass and distance
needed to explain the empirically determined increase
of the lunar eccentricity would be highly unrealistic..."

Last Edited by Dr. Astro on 08/17/2011 09:26 AM
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Astromut
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Did you read the paper? They rule out Tyche as an explanation. A paper by the researchers who actually performed the observations and reported the anomalous increase suggests the real reason lies in the constantly changing lunar thermal and internal conditions and in changes to the earth's ocean tides. [link to cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: Astromut

According to this paper the Moon's and the Earth's internal coditions are not able to explain the anomaly:
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

The present-day models of the dissipative phenomena occurring in the interiors of both the Earth and the Moon are not able to explain it.
 Quoting: scribd

You have a strange way of interpreting that statement. Equating that statement to saying that the moon and earth's internal conditions are incapable of being responsible is akin to stating that it couldn't be a Jovian mass planet at 200 AUs simply because no such planet exists in our current models of the solar system. Indeed that explanation is unrealistic, but not simply because it doesn't exist in current models per se.

The paper I linked you to explains that our understanding of the moon's internal dynamics is not complete and we need to better understand it in order to know how the orbit should change over time like this.
There is no evidence for any anomaly in the tidal acceleration in mean longitude. By contrast, the anomalous lunar eccentricity rate indicates that something is not understood well enough. Though it cannot be said with certainty that the anomaly comes from the Moon, the lunar interior is less well known than the Earth‘s interior. Computation of lunar orbit evolution over long times needs a good understanding of the various contributions to the secular rates. Long-time evolution of the orbit is complex because of evolving lunar thermal conditions and changing ocean tides (Bills and Ray, 1999).
 Quoting: williams&boggs

The arXiv paper looks at the possibility of various external factors and alternative models of gravity for an explanation, but it doesn't attempt to explore differences in the lunar interior from current models as an explanation. That's fine as they aren't actually ruling that out as a possibility, all your bolded statement indicates is that current models of the interior do not explain it. Since a reasonable explanation was not found in external factors it adds weight to the idea that the anomaly is due to an inadequate understanding of internal dissipative phenomena, which is where the original authors were headed anyway.
Oh, and the link you provided is not working :(
[link to cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: anti

My paper's link works fine on multiple computers on multiple connections, the problem is on your end.

Last Edited by Dr. Astro on 08/17/2011 09:51 AM
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ceawaves

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08/17/2011 10:06 AM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
...


no where in sight.. it's gone..
;)
 Quoting: ceawaves


No joke but here is no visible because of too much clouds.
Maybe later around 2 to 3 am the sky is more clear..

peace
 Quoting: 2Crazy4U


Just went out there and checked.. the moon it up..
repeat: the moon is up.. still looking lop sided and over to left though...:)
 Quoting: ceawaves




Here is a pic of the Moon I took tonight at 11:34pm cst. The orientation matches up perfectly with what Stellarium shows.


moon816 stell816
 Quoting: BoxerLvr


Nice pictures~ one on the right you can see the man in the moon.. has on sunglasses..an there every night..
moon ownership..under moon code bylaws, who ever got their flag up first claimed it.. yall know how that works! asking who owns the moon~~ ..;)

Man in the moon kinda favors after Gaddafi ...
must be the glasses.

Last Edited by ceawaves on 08/17/2011 10:10 AM
El Quisqueyano
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08/17/2011 02:57 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
I find this very interesting not because Cornell University, decided to talk about the moons and suns crazy actions. What is funny is people have to have others to tell them so they will believe their own eyes.
 Quoting: Daughter

If you accept the paper, then the moon is right where it should be as far as your eyes or even your telescope are concerned. You cannot resolve the moon's position to an accuracy of 20 cms, even a superb telescope can't do that. Only lunar laser ranging can do it.
 Quoting: Astromut


So Astromut, what other reason other than a trans-Plutonian massive object (Planet X/Nemesis/Tyche) can explain the increase of the Moon's eccentricity in a non-vanishing long term variation?

Has the author missed other possible solutions? Because from what I've read, he tried to explore all possible solutions, and according to him, only a trans-Plutonian massive object can result to a non-vanishing long term variation of the Moon's orbital eccentricity.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect


Did you read the paper? They rule out Tyche as an explanation. A paper by the researchers who actually performed the observations and reported the anomalous increase suggests the real reason lies in the constantly changing lunar thermal and internal conditions and in changes to the earth's ocean tides.
[link to cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: Astromut


That goes along with what I read on another thread. The melting of the arctic's is allowing for higher water levels in our oceans so therefore effecting our orbit and our moon somehow. Kind of like the balance on a tire when you add more weight to it. It will wobble a lot more than if it had never received that extra weight. Makes sense?

Thread: US Chaos Warned Near As Solar “Madness” Circles Globe
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Least Servant

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08/17/2011 04:41 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Trying to convince people that the major astrological bodies are somehow out of whack and impending doom follows is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

It's nice to see it alive and well here on GLP in a time when we do not ritually burn people to death for doing such things.

Last Edited by Least Servant on 08/17/2011 05:03 PM
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Not enough to fight, too many to die.
Anti-GLP Effect

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Yes I read the paper, and the reason they ruled out Tyche is because Tyche is supposedly located at least 15,000 AU from the Sun.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Yes, and there's a reason for that. Such an object could hypothetically be out that far and remain undetected, which brings me to...
And their calculations required that the Jovian mass planet that could cause this anomaly on the Moon's orbital eccentricity should be located only 200 AU.
 Quoting: anti

Which is wholly unrealistic, as they themselves admitted, hence they rule it out.
"Actually, the values for its mass and distance
needed to explain the empirically determined increase
of the lunar eccentricity would be highly unrealistic..."
 Quoting: Astromut


And this research was done before they discovered the Jupiter sized planet named TrES-2b, which is darker than coal. Which is why I am saying that a Jovian mass planet similar to TrES-2b located less than 200 AU can explain the anomaly on the Moon's orbital eccentricity.



[link to www.scribd.com]

According to him a recent analysis of a Lunar Laser Ranging (LLR) data spanning 38.7 yr revealed an anomalous increase of the eccentricity of the Moon's orbit. (Note: you need a special equipment and a long period of observation time to detect this very small anomaly).

This increase of the Moon's eccentricity is a non-vanishing long term variation. A potentially viable solution for this anomaly would be a trans-Plutonian massive object (Planet X/Nemesis/Tyche).

However, the author added that the values for the physical and orbital parameters of such a hypothetical body required to obtain the right order of magnitude for the anomaly are completely unrealistic.

I read page 14 of the paper, and the reason cited why the author does not believe the anomaly is explained by a Planet X, is that their calculations predict that Planet X for a Jovian mass should be only 200 AU away.

And they are expecting that Planet X should at least be 15,000 AU away from the Sun, as concluded by Matese's research.

But, what if a Jovian massed Planet X really is less than 200 AU away and still fast approaching the Sun?

Is it possible for such a massive body located less than 200 AU to remain undetected by astronomers?

What if Nibiru is a dark planet similar to the recently discovered Jupiter sized planet named TrES-2b, which is darker than coal.

[link to www.bbc.co.uk]

The distance of the earth from the sun is around 150 million kilometers, and its albedo (the amount of sunlight it reflects) is about 37%

This dark planet TrES-2b is only 5 million km away from its sun and yet its albedo is less than 1%.

Now if Nibiru is as dark as this dark planet, then can you imagine how difficult it is for ordinary telescopes to detect Nibiru?

Even if Nibiru should be closer to the sun than mercury (which is around 57 million km away from the sun), it will still reflect less than 1% sunlight!

So instead of looking for bright objects when searching for Nibiru, astronomers should be looking for dark objects, i.e., objects that block light from stars whenever this dark object occults these stars. Or, they should use infrared telescopes, hoping that Nibiru emits enough heat to be detectable.
Thread: ****BBC NEWS SAYS : Astronomer find DARKEST Jupiter SIZED PLANET only 5 million km away! (Page 3)
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect


And since Nibiru is farther away from our Sun than the dark planet TrES-2b is from its sun, Nibiru is receiving less sunlight than TrES-2b. Therefore, Nibiru is darker and even more difficult to detect than TrES-2b.

Thus for many people, Nibiru will come to them "like a thief in the night".
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

So it is written, so it shall be done! [link to www.shugborough.info]
Anti-GLP Effect

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08/17/2011 05:11 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Did you read the paper? They rule out Tyche as an explanation. A paper by the researchers who actually performed the observations and reported the anomalous increase suggests the real reason lies in the constantly changing lunar thermal and internal conditions and in changes to the earth's ocean tides. [link to cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: Astromut

According to this paper the Moon's and the Earth's internal coditions are not able to explain the anomaly:
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

The present-day models of the dissipative phenomena occurring in the interiors of both the Earth and the Moon are not able to explain it.
 Quoting: scribd

You have a strange way of interpreting that statement. Equating that statement to saying that the moon and earth's internal conditions are incapable of being responsible is akin to stating that it couldn't be a Jovian mass planet at 200 AUs simply because no such planet exists in our current models of the solar system. Indeed that explanation is unrealistic, but not simply because it doesn't exist in current models per se.

The paper I linked you to explains that our understanding of the moon's internal dynamics is not complete and we need to better understand it in order to know how the orbit should change over time like this.
There is no evidence for any anomaly in the tidal acceleration in mean longitude. By contrast, the anomalous lunar eccentricity rate indicates that something is not understood well enough. Though it cannot be said with certainty that the anomaly comes from the Moon, the lunar interior is less well known than the Earth‘s interior. Computation of lunar orbit evolution over long times needs a good understanding of the various contributions to the secular rates. Long-time evolution of the orbit is complex because of evolving lunar thermal conditions and changing ocean tides (Bills and Ray, 1999).
 Quoting: williams&boggs

The arXiv paper looks at the possibility of various external factors and alternative models of gravity for an explanation, but it doesn't attempt to explore differences in the lunar interior from current models as an explanation. That's fine as they aren't actually ruling that out as a possibility, all your bolded statement indicates is that current models of the interior do not explain it. Since a reasonable explanation was not found in external factors it adds weight to the idea that the anomaly is due to an inadequate understanding of internal dissipative phenomena, which is where the original authors were headed anyway.
 Quoting: Astromut


In other words, the authors are saying that after rejecting the idea that a Jovian mass planet exists less than 200 AU away, they currently do not have an alternate explanation to the anomaly of the Moon's orbital eccentricity; other than a wishful thinking that maybe there is something happening in the interiors of the Moon that is yet undiscovered and can explain away the anomaly.

Last Edited by Anti-GLP Effect on 08/17/2011 05:12 PM
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Astromut
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Did you read the paper? They rule out Tyche as an explanation. A paper by the researchers who actually performed the observations and reported the anomalous increase suggests the real reason lies in the constantly changing lunar thermal and internal conditions and in changes to the earth's ocean tides. [link to cddis.gsfc.nasa.gov]
 Quoting: Astromut

According to this paper the Moon's and the Earth's internal coditions are not able to explain the anomaly:
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

The present-day models of the dissipative phenomena occurring in the interiors of both the Earth and the Moon are not able to explain it.
 Quoting: scribd

You have a strange way of interpreting that statement. Equating that statement to saying that the moon and earth's internal conditions are incapable of being responsible is akin to stating that it couldn't be a Jovian mass planet at 200 AUs simply because no such planet exists in our current models of the solar system. Indeed that explanation is unrealistic, but not simply because it doesn't exist in current models per se.

The paper I linked you to explains that our understanding of the moon's internal dynamics is not complete and we need to better understand it in order to know how the orbit should change over time like this.
There is no evidence for any anomaly in the tidal acceleration in mean longitude. By contrast, the anomalous lunar eccentricity rate indicates that something is not understood well enough. Though it cannot be said with certainty that the anomaly comes from the Moon, the lunar interior is less well known than the Earth‘s interior. Computation of lunar orbit evolution over long times needs a good understanding of the various contributions to the secular rates. Long-time evolution of the orbit is complex because of evolving lunar thermal conditions and changing ocean tides (Bills and Ray, 1999).
 Quoting: williams&boggs

The arXiv paper looks at the possibility of various external factors and alternative models of gravity for an explanation, but it doesn't attempt to explore differences in the lunar interior from current models as an explanation. That's fine as they aren't actually ruling that out as a possibility, all your bolded statement indicates is that current models of the interior do not explain it. Since a reasonable explanation was not found in external factors it adds weight to the idea that the anomaly is due to an inadequate understanding of internal dissipative phenomena, which is where the original authors were headed anyway.
 Quoting: Astromut


In other words, the authors are saying that after rejecting the idea that a Jovian mass planet exists less than 200 AU away, they currently do not have an alternate explanation to the anomaly of the Moon's orbital eccentricity; other than a wishful thinking that maybe there is something happening in the interiors of the Moon that is yet undiscovered and can explain away the anomaly.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect


You are distorting what they're saying, and I suspect deliberately. It's not wishful thinking, it's the most likely scenario. Stop trying to make it seem like it's unlikely.
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
...

According to this paper the Moon's and the Earth's internal coditions are not able to explain the anomaly:
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

The present-day models of the dissipative phenomena occurring in the interiors of both the Earth and the Moon are not able to explain it.
 Quoting: scribd

You have a strange way of interpreting that statement. Equating that statement to saying that the moon and earth's internal conditions are incapable of being responsible is akin to stating that it couldn't be a Jovian mass planet at 200 AUs simply because no such planet exists in our current models of the solar system. Indeed that explanation is unrealistic, but not simply because it doesn't exist in current models per se.

The paper I linked you to explains that our understanding of the moon's internal dynamics is not complete and we need to better understand it in order to know how the orbit should change over time like this.
There is no evidence for any anomaly in the tidal acceleration in mean longitude. By contrast, the anomalous lunar eccentricity rate indicates that something is not understood well enough. Though it cannot be said with certainty that the anomaly comes from the Moon, the lunar interior is less well known than the Earth‘s interior. Computation of lunar orbit evolution over long times needs a good understanding of the various contributions to the secular rates. Long-time evolution of the orbit is complex because of evolving lunar thermal conditions and changing ocean tides (Bills and Ray, 1999).
 Quoting: williams&boggs

The arXiv paper looks at the possibility of various external factors and alternative models of gravity for an explanation, but it doesn't attempt to explore differences in the lunar interior from current models as an explanation. That's fine as they aren't actually ruling that out as a possibility, all your bolded statement indicates is that current models of the interior do not explain it. Since a reasonable explanation was not found in external factors it adds weight to the idea that the anomaly is due to an inadequate understanding of internal dissipative phenomena, which is where the original authors were headed anyway.
 Quoting: Astromut


In other words, the authors are saying that after rejecting the idea that a Jovian mass planet exists less than 200 AU away, they currently do not have an alternate explanation to the anomaly of the Moon's orbital eccentricity; other than a wishful thinking that maybe there is something happening in the interiors of the Moon that is yet undiscovered and can explain away the anomaly.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect


You are distorting what they're saying, and I suspect deliberately. It's not wishful thinking, it's the most likely scenario. Stop trying to make it seem like it's unlikely.
 Quoting: Astromut

hf ohno

Last Edited by Anti-GLP Effect on 08/17/2011 05:56 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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08/17/2011 06:09 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
moon of tonight


[link to www.youtube.com]
ceawaves

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08/17/2011 06:13 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
moon of tonight


[link to www.youtube.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1426857


you just saying that so i will moon gaze again tonight..:) it's been very pretty.
Anti-GLP Effect

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08/17/2011 06:35 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Sooner and later you will see great changes made,
dreadful horrors and vengeances.
For as the moon is thus led by its angel
the heavens draw near to the Balance.
 Quoting: Nostradamus C1 Q56

So it is written, so it shall be done! [link to www.shugborough.info]
ntisithoj

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08/17/2011 06:40 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
stfu
 Quoting: IwantToBelieve90


Hahah! I love how "iwanttobelieve90" only contribution to this thread is a fat arrogant asshoel screaming STFU!!

Anyway... the paper says it would be NICE if PX existed as thos would explain the anomolym but they also state "the values for [PX would have to be] completely unrealistic"

:(
Anonymous Coward
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08/17/2011 07:01 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
I am currently on the moon with a team of international scientists, and t we can tell you that the orbit of the earth has changed. It has increased 3 degrees over the vertex.
Anonymous Coward
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08/17/2011 07:18 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
I am currently on the moon with a team of international scientists, and t we can tell you that the orbit of the earth has changed. It has increased 3 degrees over the vertex.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1508889


3 degrees over the vertex is not enough to make the planet tip over like a top. cool2
2Crazy4U (OP)

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08/17/2011 07:32 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
I am currently on the moon with a team of international scientists, and t we can tell you that the orbit of the earth has changed. It has increased 3 degrees over the vertex.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1508889


cruise
Life its not measure by the number of breath you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
ceawaves

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08/17/2011 08:02 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
I am currently on the moon with a team of international scientists, and t we can tell you that the orbit of the earth has changed. It has increased 3 degrees over the vertex.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1508889


that's amazing! you the one wearing the shades?
:)
GeekOfTheWeek

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08/17/2011 08:16 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Looks like someone rotated the camera!!!

haha
I love physics. It bonds us eternally, it's what makes our computers work, it's what's in my morning cup of coffee, it's the thing that keeps the universe from vanishing due to lack of belief...
Astromut
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Yes I read the paper, and the reason they ruled out Tyche is because Tyche is supposedly located at least 15,000 AU from the Sun.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Yes, and there's a reason for that. Such an object could hypothetically be out that far and remain undetected, which brings me to...
And their calculations required that the Jovian mass planet that could cause this anomaly on the Moon's orbital eccentricity should be located only 200 AU.
 Quoting: anti

Which is wholly unrealistic, as they themselves admitted, hence they rule it out.
"Actually, the values for its mass and distance
needed to explain the empirically determined increase
of the lunar eccentricity would be highly unrealistic..."
 Quoting: Astromut


And this research was done before they discovered the Jupiter sized planet named TrES-2b, which is darker than coal. Which is why I am saying that a Jovian mass planet similar to TrES-2b located less than 200 AU can explain the anomaly on the Moon's orbital eccentricity.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Whenever I calculate for the detectability of any given hypothetical "Nibiru" I've always been generous enough to use an albedo twice as black as coal, and you might be surprised at just how detectable such an object would be even at a couple hundred AUs distance. Oh sure, it would require a powerful telescope, but not one beyond what most serious amateur astronomers use.

That said, there's a good reason why they ruled out the existence of such an object and called it highly unrealistic. It's stunning to me to see how completely you disregarded that statement, but I ran some hard numbers for you to demonstrate how unrealistic it is.

Over the same period of time as this study, a 1 jupiter mass object at 200 AUs would have perturbed Saturn's position with respect to the sun by about 173 arcseconds as seen from earth, almost 3 arc minutes, averaging 4.55 arcseconds per year (using this: [link to orsa.sourceforge.net] ). That's insanely high to astronomers (yes, even amateur astronomers), and it isn't happening ( [link to www.godlikeproductions.com] ). So even if the object were magically so dense that it were a jupiter mass black hole and reflected no light at all, it would still not be able to elude detection by any means. It doesn't exist.

Last Edited by Dr. Astro on 08/17/2011 08:19 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Wow, Anti-GLP can actually converse with Astromutt! I feel like I am watching a tennis match though I could keep up with a tennis match better.

I can't even figure out what the lunar eccentricity is, and yes, I did try to Goggle it (or Bing it as the case may be).

Can anyone explain it to me in simple terms?
Astromut
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Wow, Anti-GLP can actually converse with Astromutt! I feel like I am watching a tennis match though I could keep up with a tennis match better.

I can't even figure out what the lunar eccentricity is, and yes, I did try to Goggle it (or Bing it as the case may be).

Can anyone explain it to me in simple terms?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1273076


In simple terms it describes how elliptical the orbit is. The closer the number is to one, the more the orbits shape looks like an ellipse. An eccentricity of zero would be a perfect circle. Above one it becomes hyperbolic, but for the purposes of this discussion I dont think you need to delve into that.
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Anti-GLP Effect

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08/17/2011 08:52 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Yes I read the paper, and the reason they ruled out Tyche is because Tyche is supposedly located at least 15,000 AU from the Sun.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Yes, and there's a reason for that. Such an object could hypothetically be out that far and remain undetected, which brings me to...
And their calculations required that the Jovian mass planet that could cause this anomaly on the Moon's orbital eccentricity should be located only 200 AU.
 Quoting: anti

Which is wholly unrealistic, as they themselves admitted, hence they rule it out.
"Actually, the values for its mass and distance
needed to explain the empirically determined increase
of the lunar eccentricity would be highly unrealistic..."
 Quoting: Astromut


And this research was done before they discovered the Jupiter sized planet named TrES-2b, which is darker than coal. Which is why I am saying that a Jovian mass planet similar to TrES-2b located less than 200 AU can explain the anomaly on the Moon's orbital eccentricity.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Whenever I calculate for the detectability of any given hypothetical "Nibiru" I've always been generous enough to use an albedo twice as black as coal, and you might be surprised at just how detectable such an object would be even at a couple hundred AUs distance. Oh sure, it would require a powerful telescope, but not one beyond what most serious amateur astronomers use.

 Quoting: Astromut

The albedo of TrES-2b is less than 1% at a distance of 50 million miles away from its sun. 200 AU away from our Sun is considerably farther than that.

Also, what is the albedo of an object twice as black as coal? Have you actually discovered an object 200 AU away with such low albedo using your telescope? Care to share some pictures with us?

Last Edited by Anti-GLP Effect on 08/17/2011 08:58 PM
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Astromut
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
The albedo of TrES-2b is less than 1% at a distance of 50 million miles away from its sun. 200 AU away from our Sun is considerably farther than that.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Albedo is independent of distance from the sun.
Also, what is the albedo of an object twice as black as coal? Have you actually discovered an object 200 AU away with such low albedo using your telescope? Care to share some pictures with us?
 Quoting: anti

No, I haven't discovered a jupiter sized object 200 AUs from the sun with an albedo twice as black as coal, because none exists. Such an object would perturb the positions of the planets by quite a few arcseconds, easily noticeable, but that is not happening. That's why it doesn't even matter that TrES-2b has an albedo <1%, it could be 0% for all I care, the perturbations such an object would induce would be quite noticeable to me.
astrobanner2
Anti-GLP Effect

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08/17/2011 09:09 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Over the same period of time as this study, a 1 jupiter mass object at 200 AUs would have perturbed Saturn's position with respect to the sun by about 173 arcseconds as seen from earth, almost 3 arc minutes, averaging 4.55 arcseconds per year (using this: [link to orsa.sourceforge.net] ). That's insanely high to astronomers (yes, even amateur astronomers), and it isn't happening ( [link to www.godlikeproductions.com] ). So even if the object were magically so dense that it were a jupiter mass black hole and reflected no light at all, it would still not be able to elude detection by any means. It doesn't exist.
 Quoting: Astromut


Have you considered using a very high inclination of the orbital plane of the 1 jupiter mass object with respect to the eccliptic?
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Anti-GLP Effect

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08/17/2011 09:11 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
The albedo of TrES-2b is less than 1% at a distance of 50 million miles away from its sun. 200 AU away from our Sun is considerably farther than that.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Albedo is independent of distance from the sun.
 Quoting: Astromut

Yes, albedo is independent of distance from the sun, but the farther away you are from the sun, the less light you receive, and therefore the darker the object will be.
So it is written, so it shall be done! [link to www.shugborough.info]
2Crazy4U (OP)

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08/17/2011 09:20 PM
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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Very interesting points of view... Two great minds having a civilized conversation exchanging info..

To add some flavor to this thread, a pinned thread that also link all the changes in our earth, moon, sun and planets.

Thread: THE EARTH IS GOING TO MOVE AGAIN <--- Says the Lord Jesus Christ ---> GET READY

Even that has the religion in the middle, quote
"I said there would be signs in the Moon"


Yay..
scheming
Life its not measure by the number of breath you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
Anti-GLP Effect

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08/17/2011 09:42 PM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
The albedo of TrES-2b is less than 1% at a distance of 50 million miles away from its sun. 200 AU away from our Sun is considerably farther than that.
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect

Albedo is independent of distance from the sun.
Also, what is the albedo of an object twice as black as coal? Have you actually discovered an object 200 AU away with such low albedo using your telescope? Care to share some pictures with us?
 Quoting: anti

No, I haven't discovered a jupiter sized object 200 AUs from the sun with an albedo twice as black as coal, because none exists. Such an object would perturb the positions of the planets by quite a few arcseconds, easily noticeable, but that is not happening. That's why it doesn't even matter that TrES-2b has an albedo <1%, it could be 0% for all I care, the perturbations such an object would induce would be quite noticeable to me.
 Quoting: Astromut


But you are probably a professional astronomer. How many amateur astronomers do you know will use their telescopes to see if the orbit of Saturn has changed by a few arcseconds? And you are practically saying that a dark planet such as TrES-2b, which may be lurking in our solar system, can only be detected indirectly by measuring the small perturbations of distant planets such as Saturn.

Last Edited by Anti-GLP Effect on 08/18/2011 01:20 AM
So it is written, so it shall be done! [link to www.shugborough.info]
Astromut
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08/18/2011 03:02 AM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Over the same period of time as this study, a 1 jupiter mass object at 200 AUs would have perturbed Saturn's position with respect to the sun by about 173 arcseconds as seen from earth, almost 3 arc minutes, averaging 4.55 arcseconds per year (using this: [link to orsa.sourceforge.net] ). That's insanely high to astronomers (yes, even amateur astronomers), and it isn't happening ( [link to www.godlikeproductions.com] ). So even if the object were magically so dense that it were a jupiter mass black hole and reflected no light at all, it would still not be able to elude detection by any means. It doesn't exist.
 Quoting: Astromut


Have you considered using a very high inclination of the orbital plane of the 1 jupiter mass object with respect to the eccliptic?
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect


Show me where such an object fits the observations re the moon. I've considered it in previous instances, but in this instance the hypothetical object you are claiming actually exists is supposed to affect only the moon's eccentricity, it is not supposed to induce a perturbation from a severely inclined direction.
astrobanner2
Anti-GLP Effect

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08/18/2011 03:43 AM

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Re: *** Moon orbit is wrong according to Cornell University *** PIN
Over the same period of time as this study, a 1 jupiter mass object at 200 AUs would have perturbed Saturn's position with respect to the sun by about 173 arcseconds as seen from earth, almost 3 arc minutes, averaging 4.55 arcseconds per year (using this: [link to orsa.sourceforge.net] ). That's insanely high to astronomers (yes, even amateur astronomers), and it isn't happening ( [link to www.godlikeproductions.com] ). So even if the object were magically so dense that it were a jupiter mass black hole and reflected no light at all, it would still not be able to elude detection by any means. It doesn't exist.
 Quoting: Astromut


Have you considered using a very high inclination of the orbital plane of the 1 jupiter mass object with respect to the eccliptic?
 Quoting: Anti-GLP Effect


Show me where such an object fits the observations re the moon. I've considered it in previous instances, but in this instance the hypothetical object you are claiming actually exists is supposed to affect only the moon's eccentricity, it is not supposed to induce a perturbation from a severely inclined direction.
 Quoting: Astromut


The research only mentioned studying/observing the anomaly on the Moon's eccentricity. Nothing was mentioned whether they also studied/observed any anomaly on the Moon's orbital inclination, which I believe, a Jovian mass planet with high orbital inclination will cause.

Last Edited by Anti-GLP Effect on 08/18/2011 03:51 AM
So it is written, so it shall be done! [link to www.shugborough.info]

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