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Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?

 
Koelbren
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09/28/2011 01:03 AM
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Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
POLL: Which political system is the best, or should there be a new alternative?
 We should find a new alternative(explain your position)
 Free market capitalism
 Socialism/communism
 Anarchy
 Global Government
 Other (expain)
 Blank (View Results) 


I see a lot of debate and bickering over internet forums regarding this issue, specially on Ron Paul related threads.

It is clear our current system in the west is doomed to fail, this capitialistic-socialistic marriage that we have in most Europe and America is based on the premise that big gov can print money out of thin air and redistribute wealth forever, but it get's to a point when you have too much debt and can't finance all your big gov programs anymore without going completely bankrupt.

Some people, like Ron Paul, propose going back to some 1800's utopia that never was, and I must say I love the man and would vote for him if I was in the states, but even he himself admits that his system is not perfect. And despite the fact that he says there are things, like slavery and racial discrimination, that would never happen in these times("we're so past that") if states were given more power as he advocates, is that really true?
I think that implementing Ron Paul's vision would fragment America into a more natural pattern if you will, instead of the forced association big gov enforces right now. And maybe that, although painful, would actually be good for America.
But giving more power to the people always has to take into consideration what kind of people you're dealing with, what is the morality of your population? Would they make great choices if given the power? You may think you'd make great choices but what happens when the choices your neighbor makes are not in harmony with your views?

So what are our choices besides the admitedly flawed libertarian system that Ron Paul proposes?

Communism has been proven to turn into an authoritarian monster everywhere it has been implemented.
Socialism doesn't seem to work except than in very localized areas with a homogeneous population which already worked well without it anyhow. But when implemented in hetereogeneous societies, specially multicultural ones, where there's a disparity in productivity output, there always ends up being that the more productive segment of the population feels they're being robbed of their work to support those who don't want to do the same amount of effort.

We have also the view that a global government, that centralizes all economic, political and military power would do us good, starting from the premise that people are basically worthless and need to be ruled with an iron fist otherwise they will engage in theft, rape, wars and other atrocities (and which is actually founded on some strong historical foundations).

This leads me to anarchy, some people say no government would be the best choice, but then again, has there been any precedent to this? It seems that people left to their own means foments certain of the more amoral individuals to gather to exploit the more moral ones.

It is written in the Sumerian epics, the oldest written records we know of, that humanity was created as slaves to the "gods" and that these gods created kingship to administer the slaves for them. Could it be that humanity just can't be free, as much as we want to think we should?

I am green pinning this because I want to hear good arguments on this issue, so discuss away!

Last Edited by Koelbren on 09/28/2011 01:04 AM
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Anonymous Coward
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09/28/2011 01:19 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
We need this!

[link to www.thevenusproject.com]



Capitalism doesn't work... too much predatory profit only crap.
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 01:25 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
We need this!

[link to www.thevenusproject.com]



Capitalism doesn't work... too much predatory profit only crap.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2186627


As far as I see the Venus project falls into the global government category. As much that they can try to sell you an utopia, you would have to eventually force it onto the people who don't agree with it to make it work. Watch this.



This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 01:31 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Sometimes I ponder if agreeing to create geopolitical areas based on ideology and redistribute people to those areas based on their compatibility would be the solution.

That way you would have a piece of land for communists, another for capitalists, another for christians, another for jewish people, muslims, anarchists and every MAJOR (key word) ideology/political system, trying to make it as equitative as posible with resources and space. And then making it very clear that their sphere of influence can only be reduced to that geographical area.

Maybe something like that would finally end the bickering? After all if the people fail they would only have themselves and their ideologies to blame.

It seems utopic mostly because of the space and resources problem (people would whine that they weren't given a fair share), but other than that I think it would be quite good no?
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
fellowearthling

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09/28/2011 01:34 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
A "United Aristocracy"

or "UNOCRACY"

the old divide and conquer

is so last century...
"When your eyes are incapable of tears,
your ears lose their sensitivity,
your voice is unable to wound and
your feet are cleansed in the blood
of your heart, then you may stand
in the presence of your master."

Loosely translated from:
"Light on the Path"
Anonymous Coward
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09/28/2011 01:37 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
s226wtfwhateverjerkitputinbushpunchodancegodzillamonsterspock
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 01:41 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Come on folks, demonstrate you have something within your cranium besides an agenda and wanting to trash those who dont share it.

So you blast Ron Paul because his philosophy is not perfect, well enough so what do you propose? Remaining as we are? It's unsustainable, so take it out of your little minds. I know you like big gov and social programs but there AINT no more money to fund them, so you either come up with an alternative or you explain how the heck we can continue the way we are.

I am all ears.
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Punch and Pie

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09/28/2011 01:41 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
We need this!

[link to www.thevenusproject.com]



Capitalism doesn't work... too much predatory profit only crap.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2186627


As far as I see the Venus project falls into the global government category. As much that they can try to sell you an utopia, you would have to eventually force it onto the people who don't agree with it to make it work. Watch this.



 Quoting: Koelbren


The Venus project is not a utopia. They do not claim to be and they actually explain that a utopia will never exist. No society will ever be perfect.
I've forgotten how to fly,
Living in the prison of my mind
How am I supposed to reach heaven in the sky
with the door to this cage locked tight
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 01:45 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
We need this!

[link to www.thevenusproject.com]



Capitalism doesn't work... too much predatory profit only crap.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2186627


As far as I see the Venus project falls into the global government category. As much that they can try to sell you an utopia, you would have to eventually force it onto the people who don't agree with it to make it work. Watch this.



 Quoting: Koelbren


The Venus project is not a utopia. They do not claim to be and they actually explain that a utopia will never exist. No society will ever be perfect.
 Quoting: Punch and Pie


But you didn't get my point, you still would have to enforce it onto a whole lot of people who want to know nothing with it's communistic, globalistic overtones. That's my point and what inspired me to make this thread, the fact that a fair system is actually impossible to implement, you always have to take from some to finance something that they won't agree with and if they revolt you need to put them down.

It seems fair to say a truly free system would be anarchy and that would bring up the problem that people left to themselves turn as bad as governments.

I seem to be in a gridlock regarding this issue.

PS: for those who one starred but didnt say why, skull_fing
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Burt Gummer

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09/28/2011 01:46 AM

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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
 Quoting: Koelbren



You sound much the same as the SOCIALIST movement that put Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin in power just before the war.

Go read a history book!

When things get bad enough....people will accept anything you say...right?


chavezid

Last Edited by Useless Cookie Eater on 09/28/2011 01:46 AM
Dawn of Man

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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
As a thinking member of society I would have to say that what we have is not perfect and I'm glad someone has put what an internet forum should be put to use for and that is brainstorming, especially if it helps the rest of humanity in the long run

next off I voted for an alternative, but I don't really know what that is, I thought at one time the venus project would be a good idea but I'm not so sure anymore.

Anarchism might be good if a microchasm of such a system were to be tried and be exemplified just like true communism has never been tried.

I propose we set up test communities for such things somewhere and see which works best after a year or two of study we can defiantly determine which systems work and which ones don't only through example is anyone going to change their minds to work for something better, and it's up for us to show them how it's done!
Marty McFly- Oh This Is heavy Doc
Doc Bown- There's that word again, heavy. Why are things so heavy in the future, is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pole??- Back To the Future

Me-Hehe, Doc you don't have any idea do you?

All in fractals friends!


Life is like a ride at an amusement park and when you go on it you think it's real cause that's how powerful our minds are.- Bill Hicks

Either get busy living, or get busy dying- Morgan Freeman (Shawshank Redemption)
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 01:48 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
 Quoting: Koelbren



You sound much the same as the SOCIALIST movement that put Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin in power just before the war.

Go read a history book!

When things get bad enough....people will accept anything you say...right?


chavezid
 Quoting: Burt Gummer


Why don't you focus on the topic instead of going all ad-hominem on me? I didnt even propose anything in this thread, just pointed out to the faults of all our known systems.

What do you propose as a working system? Something that is viable and that doesn't need to put down any segment of the population to be implemented?
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Koelbren (OP)

User ID: 1907778
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09/28/2011 01:52 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
As a thinking member of society I would have to say that what we have is not perfect and I'm glad someone has put what an internet forum should be put to use for and that is brainstorming, especially if it helps the rest of humanity in the long run

next off I voted for an alternative, but I don't really know what that is, I thought at one time the venus project would be a good idea but I'm not so sure anymore.

Anarchism might be good if a microchasm of such a system were to be tried and be exemplified just like true communism has never been tried.

I propose we set up test communities for such things somewhere and see which works best after a year or two of study we can defiantly determine which systems work and which ones don't only through example is anyone going to change their minds to work for something better, and it's up for us to show them how it's done!
 Quoting: Dawn of Man


So just for the sake of discussion, what if you did a test like you mention and found out that societies that are ethnically and culturally homogenous work better than those which are the contrary? If that turned to be the result and someone would attempt to advocate for that kind of thing they would be slandered upside down.

I still think the right direction is related to people being able to relocate on areas which are ideologically(and maybe ethnically) compatible. But I agree , some sort of test situation should be positive. Of course in our oligarchically dominated societies that won't happen because our masters want global government and they have the money and influence to impose it on all of us, whether we want it or not (that's where we currently are at)

Last Edited by Koelbren on 09/28/2011 01:56 AM
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Koelbren (OP)

User ID: 1907778
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09/28/2011 02:03 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Well at least you're voting, so far capitalism is winning.
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Dawn of Man

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09/28/2011 02:13 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
As a thinking member of society I would have to say that what we have is not perfect and I'm glad someone has put what an internet forum should be put to use for and that is brainstorming, especially if it helps the rest of humanity in the long run

next off I voted for an alternative, but I don't really know what that is, I thought at one time the venus project would be a good idea but I'm not so sure anymore.

Anarchism might be good if a microchasm of such a system were to be tried and be exemplified just like true communism has never been tried.

I propose we set up test communities for such things somewhere and see which works best after a year or two of study we can defiantly determine which systems work and which ones don't only through example is anyone going to change their minds to work for something better, and it's up for us to show them how it's done!
 Quoting: Dawn of Man


So just for the sake of discussion, what if you did a test like you mention and found out that societies that are ethnically and culturally homogenous work better than those which are the contrary? If that turned to be the result and someone would attempt to advocate for that kind of thing they would be slandered upside down.

I still think the direction is related to people being able to relocate on areas which are ideologically(and maybe ethnically) compatible. But I agree , some sort of test situation should be positive. Of course in our oligarchically dominated societies that won't happen because our masters want global government and they have the money and influence to impose it on all of us, whether we want it or not (that's where we currently are at)
 Quoting: Koelbren


Well in answer to your first question: you can't argue with results, statistics and facts...

or actually I guess you can if you throw religion in there then it would be the anti-christ or something like that but still maybe the rational people would see and then move into which ever one works the best while leaving the people set in their ways to continue their way of life.

ALL I'M REALLY SAYING IS.. We, as Humans, should have freedom of choice to do with ourselves as we please that means if they want to do this let them & if they want to do that let them as long as it's not hurting me or anyone else and benefiting them and their perspective on life then that's all it should take. I can tell you one thing people would be much happier if they had the freedom to make their own micro-system if that's what they wanted to do. We shouldn't be forced brought up and raised to think one particular way that narrows the mind and wastes creative potential.

Secondly, amen to that brother, it's so sad we live this way! It's quite obvious the way we are headed is neither sustainable nor helpful to planet or it's inhabitants. I think we all can see the ahem "writing on the wall" but we don't know the alternative. that's why threads like this are a godsend for someone like you and me.

I hope this causes even further discussion

Last Edited by Dawn of Man on 09/28/2011 02:17 AM
Marty McFly- Oh This Is heavy Doc
Doc Bown- There's that word again, heavy. Why are things so heavy in the future, is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pole??- Back To the Future

Me-Hehe, Doc you don't have any idea do you?

All in fractals friends!


Life is like a ride at an amusement park and when you go on it you think it's real cause that's how powerful our minds are.- Bill Hicks

Either get busy living, or get busy dying- Morgan Freeman (Shawshank Redemption)
Dawn of Man

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09/28/2011 02:15 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Oh 5 stars and a karma bump
Marty McFly- Oh This Is heavy Doc
Doc Bown- There's that word again, heavy. Why are things so heavy in the future, is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pole??- Back To the Future

Me-Hehe, Doc you don't have any idea do you?

All in fractals friends!


Life is like a ride at an amusement park and when you go on it you think it's real cause that's how powerful our minds are.- Bill Hicks

Either get busy living, or get busy dying- Morgan Freeman (Shawshank Redemption)
timex

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09/28/2011 02:16 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
The only alternative is developed technocracy.
higher than high

[link to heaven.fm]
Thoreau

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09/28/2011 02:18 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Well at least you're voting, so far capitalism is winning.
 Quoting: Koelbren


Is that what you want or expect?
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 02:20 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
As a thinking member of society I would have to say that what we have is not perfect and I'm glad someone has put what an internet forum should be put to use for and that is brainstorming, especially if it helps the rest of humanity in the long run

next off I voted for an alternative, but I don't really know what that is, I thought at one time the venus project would be a good idea but I'm not so sure anymore.

Anarchism might be good if a microchasm of such a system were to be tried and be exemplified just like true communism has never been tried.

I propose we set up test communities for such things somewhere and see which works best after a year or two of study we can defiantly determine which systems work and which ones don't only through example is anyone going to change their minds to work for something better, and it's up for us to show them how it's done!
 Quoting: Dawn of Man


So just for the sake of discussion, what if you did a test like you mention and found out that societies that are ethnically and culturally homogenous work better than those which are the contrary? If that turned to be the result and someone would attempt to advocate for that kind of thing they would be slandered upside down.

I still think the direction is related to people being able to relocate on areas which are ideologically(and maybe ethnically) compatible. But I agree , some sort of test situation should be positive. Of course in our oligarchically dominated societies that won't happen because our masters want global government and they have the money and influence to impose it on all of us, whether we want it or not (that's where we currently are at)
 Quoting: Koelbren


Well in answer to your first question: you can't argue with results, statistics and facts...

or actually I guess you can if you throw religion in there then it would be the anti-christ or something like that but still maybe the rational people would see and then move into which ever one works the best while leaving the people set in their ways to continue their way of life.

ALL I'M REALLY SAYING IS.. We, as Humans, should have freedom of choice to do with ourselves as we please that means if they want to do this let them & if they want to do that let them as long as it's not hurting me or anyone else and benefiting them and their perspective on life then that's all it should take. I can tell you one thing people would be much happier if they had the freedom to make their own micro-system if that's what they wanted to do. We shouldn't be forced brought up and raised to think one particular way that narrows the mind and wastes creative potential.

Secondly, amen to that brother, it's so sad we live this way! It's quite obvious the way we are headed is neither sustainable nor helpful to planet or it's inhabitants. I think we all can see the ahem "writing on the wall" but we don't know the alternative. that's why threads like this are a godsend for someone like you and me.

I hope this causes even further discussion
 Quoting: Dawn of Man


Making our own microsytems sounds fantastic, in fact I think that "label" itself has potential. I think many people actually want more of that, but the truth is that the most compatible system currently to that sort of thing is the libertarian system Ron Paul endorses, where people are left alone to do their own thing under a minimalistic set of laws enough so that people won't abuse each other. I'd like America to vote Ron Paul so we could see how would that work in a modern setting (without the 18th century mentality I mean).
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 02:23 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Well at least you're voting, so far capitalism is winning.
 Quoting: Koelbren


Is that what you want or expect?
 Quoting: Thoreau


Well, from the systems available certainly I would keep Free market capitalism with a very slight amount of socialism over communism/anarchy/fascism/global government, but of course it is not a perfect system either and I'd love to come up with something that's both viable and better. Hence why I wanted to hear some enlightened opinions.

However most people are just beating dead horses in some other more "entertaining", less "philosophical" threads.
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 02:24 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
The only alternative is developed technocracy.
 Quoting: timex


Can you develop more on your views about it?
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Anonymous Coward
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09/28/2011 02:24 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Anarchy, which is what we have now.

There are no borders.

There are no laws.

There is only existence.

Now, start a community and grow something.

<3
Dawn of Man

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09/28/2011 02:25 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Making our own microsytems sounds fantastic, in fact I think that "label" itself has potential. I think many people actually want more of that, but the truth is that the most compatible system currently to that sort of thing is the libertarian system Ron Paul endorses, where people are left alone to do their own thing under a minimalistic set of laws enough so that people won't abuse each other. I'd like America to vote Ron Paul so we could see how would that work in a modern setting (without the 18th century mentality I mean).
 Quoting: Koelbren


Right, It's one of the reasons why I want to see him get elected it would be hundred times closer to this system or hopefully a thousand times better than what we have now.
Marty McFly- Oh This Is heavy Doc
Doc Bown- There's that word again, heavy. Why are things so heavy in the future, is there a problem with the earth's gravitational pole??- Back To the Future

Me-Hehe, Doc you don't have any idea do you?

All in fractals friends!


Life is like a ride at an amusement park and when you go on it you think it's real cause that's how powerful our minds are.- Bill Hicks

Either get busy living, or get busy dying- Morgan Freeman (Shawshank Redemption)
Koelbren (OP)

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09/28/2011 02:28 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Making our own microsytems sounds fantastic, in fact I think that "label" itself has potential. I think many people actually want more of that, but the truth is that the most compatible system currently to that sort of thing is the libertarian system Ron Paul endorses, where people are left alone to do their own thing under a minimalistic set of laws enough so that people won't abuse each other. I'd like America to vote Ron Paul so we could see how would that work in a modern setting (without the 18th century mentality I mean).
 Quoting: Koelbren


Right, It's one of the reasons why I want to see him get elected it would be hundred times closer to this system or hopefully a thousand times better than what we have now.
 Quoting: Dawn of Man


Although problem remains, many people have grown dependant on gov and wouldn't know what to do with so much freedom, they have no initiative, no desire to create anything.

It's like those captive animals who have been restricted all their lifes and when they are about to be let free they stay in their cages afraid of leaving their comfortable captivity.
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Thoreau

User ID: 2112694
United States
09/28/2011 02:30 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Here is what I think. By the way I voted for FMC. I believe If we had a free market with almost no taxation and regulation and most importantly no debt based currency printed by private banks we would all be so prosperous that what system we have would be irrelevent because very very few people would want to change something that works so well for them. Then through advances in technology we could eliminate scarcity and menial/dangerous/hard labor type jobs and live in a world that is sort of free market capitalism with pockets of venus project and voluntary communes.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 2181084
United States
09/28/2011 02:30 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Anarchy, which is what we have now.

There are no borders.

There are no laws.

There is only existence.

Now, start a community and grow something.

<3
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2181084


"The real truth that dare not speak itself is that no one is in control, absolutely no one. This stuff is ruled by the equations of dynamics and chaos. There may be entities seeking control, but to seek control is to take enormous aggravation upon yourself. It's like trying to control a dream." -Terence McKenna
Koelbren (OP)

User ID: 1907778
Spain
09/28/2011 02:31 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
3 people want global government, that's like saying I want the monarchies back. I always pondered how many people would actually love to have the old kings and princes back in power, you'd be surprised.
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1545229
United States
09/28/2011 02:32 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
I see a lot of debate and bickering over internet forums regarding this issue, specially on Ron Paul related threads.

It is clear our current system in the west is doomed to fail, this capitialistic-socialistic marriage that we have in most Europe and America is based on the premise that big gov can print money out of thin air and redistribute wealth forever, but it get's to a point when you have too much debt and can't finance all your big gov programs anymore without going completely bankrupt.

Some people, like Ron Paul, propose going back to some 1800's utopia that never was, and I must say I love the man and would vote for him if I was in the states, but even he himself admits that his system is not perfect. And despite the fact that he says there are things, like slavery and racial discrimination, that would never happen in these times("we're so past that") if states were given more power as he advocates, is that really true?
I think that implementing Ron Paul's vision would fragment America into a more natural pattern if you will, instead of the forced association big gov enforces right now. And maybe that, although painful, would actually be good for America.
But giving more power to the people always has to take into consideration what kind of people you're dealing with, what is the morality of your population? Would they make great choices if given the power? You may think you'd make great choices but what happens when the choices your neighbor makes are not in harmony with your views?

So what are our choices besides the admitedly flawed libertarian system that Ron Paul proposes?

Communism has been proven to turn into an authoritarian monster everywhere it has been implemented.
Socialism doesn't seem to work except than in very localized areas with a homogeneous population which already worked well without it anyhow. But when implemented in hetereogeneous societies, specially multicultural ones, where there's a disparity in productivity output, there always ends up being that the more productive segment of the population feels they're being robbed of their work to support those who don't want to do the same amount of effort.

We have also the view that a global government, that centralizes all economic, political and military power would do us good, starting from the premise that people are basically worthless and need to be ruled with an iron fist otherwise they will engage in theft, rape, wars and other atrocities (and which is actually founded on some strong historical foundations).

This leads me to anarchy, some people say no government would be the best choice, but then again, has there been any precedent to this? It seems that people left to their own means foments certain of the more amoral individuals to gather to exploit the more moral ones.

It is written in the Sumerian epics, the oldest written records we know of, that humanity was created as slaves to the "gods" and that these gods created kingship to administer the slaves for them. Could it be that humanity just can't be free, as much as we want to think we should?

I am green pinning this because I want to hear good arguments on this issue, so discuss away!
 Quoting: Koelbren


Are you fucking retarded?

This fail of a system is only built for one thing. To control YOU! Dumbass
Koelbren (OP)

User ID: 1907778
Spain
09/28/2011 02:34 AM
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Here is what I think. By the way I voted for FMC. I believe If we had a free market with almost no taxation and regulation and most importantly no debt based currency printed by private banks we would all be so prosperous that what system we have would be irrelevent because very very few people would want to change something that works so well for them. Then through advances in technology we could eliminate scarcity and menial/dangerous/hard labor type jobs and live in a world that is sort of free market capitalism with pockets of venus project and voluntary communes.
 Quoting: Thoreau


Good point.

That's a factor people don't take into account when bashing Ron paul's policies. They say "but without social programs how will we pay for our medicine?". They forget that by getting rid of the fed, liquidating the debt, bringing back industry and creating real wealth through a real monetary system that works for the people instead of private bankers and speculators, the people would actually have the money to pay for their own lives.

That was the goal of this whole thing, but people seem to have forgotten about it and have grown accostumed to being filthy poor and dependant on government welfare.
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Koelbren (OP)

User ID: 1907778
Spain
09/28/2011 02:35 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
I see a lot of debate and bickering over internet forums regarding this issue, specially on Ron Paul related threads.

It is clear our current system in the west is doomed to fail, this capitialistic-socialistic marriage that we have in most Europe and America is based on the premise that big gov can print money out of thin air and redistribute wealth forever, but it get's to a point when you have too much debt and can't finance all your big gov programs anymore without going completely bankrupt.

Some people, like Ron Paul, propose going back to some 1800's utopia that never was, and I must say I love the man and would vote for him if I was in the states, but even he himself admits that his system is not perfect. And despite the fact that he says there are things, like slavery and racial discrimination, that would never happen in these times("we're so past that") if states were given more power as he advocates, is that really true?
I think that implementing Ron Paul's vision would fragment America into a more natural pattern if you will, instead of the forced association big gov enforces right now. And maybe that, although painful, would actually be good for America.
But giving more power to the people always has to take into consideration what kind of people you're dealing with, what is the morality of your population? Would they make great choices if given the power? You may think you'd make great choices but what happens when the choices your neighbor makes are not in harmony with your views?

So what are our choices besides the admitedly flawed libertarian system that Ron Paul proposes?

Communism has been proven to turn into an authoritarian monster everywhere it has been implemented.
Socialism doesn't seem to work except than in very localized areas with a homogeneous population which already worked well without it anyhow. But when implemented in hetereogeneous societies, specially multicultural ones, where there's a disparity in productivity output, there always ends up being that the more productive segment of the population feels they're being robbed of their work to support those who don't want to do the same amount of effort.

We have also the view that a global government, that centralizes all economic, political and military power would do us good, starting from the premise that people are basically worthless and need to be ruled with an iron fist otherwise they will engage in theft, rape, wars and other atrocities (and which is actually founded on some strong historical foundations).

This leads me to anarchy, some people say no government would be the best choice, but then again, has there been any precedent to this? It seems that people left to their own means foments certain of the more amoral individuals to gather to exploit the more moral ones.

It is written in the Sumerian epics, the oldest written records we know of, that humanity was created as slaves to the "gods" and that these gods created kingship to administer the slaves for them. Could it be that humanity just can't be free, as much as we want to think we should?

I am green pinning this because I want to hear good arguments on this issue, so discuss away!
 Quoting: Koelbren


Are you fucking retarded?

This fail of a system is only built for one thing. To control YOU! Dumbass
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1545229


Ok tard, come at me then, what is your alternative?

it's easy to bash but harder to bring some substance to the discussion.
This is the fate of man. He must strive for that which he cannot attain. He must believe in that which he cannot prove. He must seek that which he cannot find. He must travel a road without knowing his destination. Only thus can the purpose of life be fulfilled.

For I tell you, God will not do things you are too apathetic to do for yourselves.
Thoreau

User ID: 2112694
United States
09/28/2011 02:41 AM
Report Abusive Post
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Re: Political/economic systems brainstorm thread: Are we in need of a *new* system or should we stick with the old ones?
Here is what I think. By the way I voted for FMC. I believe If we had a free market with almost no taxation and regulation and most importantly no debt based currency printed by private banks we would all be so prosperous that what system we have would be irrelevent because very very few people would want to change something that works so well for them. Then through advances in technology we could eliminate scarcity and menial/dangerous/hard labor type jobs and live in a world that is sort of free market capitalism with pockets of venus project and voluntary communes.
 Quoting: Thoreau


Good point.

That's a factor people don't take into account when bashing Ron paul's policies. They say "but without social programs how will we pay for our medicine?". They forget that by getting rid of the fed, liquidating the debt, bringing back industry and creating real wealth through a real monetary system that works for the people instead of private bankers and speculators, the people would actually have the money to pay for their own lives.

That was the goal of this whole thing, but people seem to have forgotten about it and have grown accostumed to being filthy poor and dependant on government welfare.
 Quoting: Koelbren


I used to be quite a hardcore anarcho-capitalist but watching films like "the money masters" and ,what is that other movie bill still did? Oh yes The Secret of Oz, Have made me believe that perhaps there should be a state to coordinate large " common good" projects that is funded by the printing of money by the state "spending into circulation" rather than borrowing from international bankers with all the citizens lives and property as collateral.

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