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Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please

 
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 07:35 PM
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Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
OK Look it all comes down to God's choice NOT ours, and that is His sovereignty.

Below are 2 versions of the same verses out of Romans Ch9...

You may not like it, Christians may not want to deal with it...

But here it is in black and white...

I have no problem with it, as Abraham says to God "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?


The Scriptures Say:
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,

11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of them who calls—

12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

24 even us whom he has called, not from the jewish people only but also from the Gentiles?


9For this is what the promise said, About this time [next year] will I return and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac,

11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

12It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son].

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [a]relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).

14What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!

15For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.

16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.

18So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

19You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?

20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

22What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?

23And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

24Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the jewish people but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)?


The scriptures say:

"Those destined to salvation believed".

"All the father has given me will come".

"NO ONE can come to me UNLESS, the father draws them"

There are many more verses like this... BUT the bottom line is this: We believe because we are saved. NOT the other way around.

Who will the father draw? Will he draw those who will NOT come because of their free will? NO! God is not stupid, and would not waste his time drawing those who would not come, and if God chooses to draw someone can can God then fail in this effort? No...Man and religion has twisted truth, into doctrines.

The father will draw those who are destined to salvation...The bible says: "HE added daily to those in the church". those who were being saved". Each man in his own time (timing)...


God did everything to reveal himself to man, when its over he rolls it up like a scroll and builds something new...

The garden was not an accident, Adam and Eve, and the fall were part of the plan...

No fall no revealing of the man Jesus...

Just think it thru, forget all that "Free will nonsense"...
wildhoney

User ID: 4230377
Spain
10/29/2011 07:36 PM

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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
obviously
Matthew 16>18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it..
Peter was crucified..on Vatican Hill

"Thou shalt not kill" does not apply to murder of one's own kind only, but to all living beings; and this Commandment was inscribed in the human breast long before it was proclaimed from Sinai. ~Leo Tolstoy


You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

..Immanuel ,The Christ (Sermon Of The Mount)


“WHAT YOU DO TO OTHERS YOU DO TO YOURSELF FOR THAT IS THE LAW..AND THE PROFIT"

..)

Preach the Gospel at all times..and when necessary use words..

St.Francis Of Assisi..

Dont look at where the finger is pointing..but at WHO is doing the pointing


wildhoney14@yahoo.com

[link to www.google.ca]

Be part of the re evolution of the Spirit..say yes to peace and love..be called child of God

Inherit the Kingdom

...Time of the Angels..


oh and PLEASE STOP SENDING ME SPAM FROM AFRICA..thank you :)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1210277
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10/29/2011 07:37 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
The scriptures say:

"Those destined to salvation believed".

"All the father has given me will come".

"NO ONE can come to me UNLESS, the father draws them"

There are many more verses like this... BUT the bottom line is this: We believe because we are saved. NOT the other way around.

Who will the father draw? Will he draw those who will NOT come because of their free will? NO! God is not stupid, and would not waste his time drawing those who would not come, and if God chooses to draw someone can can God then fail in this effort? No...Man and religion has twisted truth, into doctrines.

The father will draw those who are destined to salvation...The bible says: "HE added daily to those in the church". those who were being saved". Each man in his own time (timing)...


God did everything to reveal himself to man, when its over he rolls it up like a scroll and builds something new...

The garden was not an accident, Adam and Eve, and the fall were part of the plan...

No fall no revealing of the man Jesus...

Just think it thru, forget all that "Free will nonsense"...

OK Look it all comes down to God's choice NOT ours, and that is His sovereignty.

Below are 2 versions of the same verses out of Romans Ch9...

You may not like it, Christians may not want to deal with it...

But here it is in black and white...

I have no problem with it, as Abraham says to God "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?


The Scriptures Say:
And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,

11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of them who calls—

12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

24 even us whom he has called, not from the jewish people only but also from the Gentiles?


9For this is what the promise said, About this time [next year] will I return and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac,

11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

12It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son].

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [a]relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).

14What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!

15For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.

16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.

18So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

19You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?

20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

22What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?

23And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

24Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the jewish people but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1210277
United States
10/29/2011 07:38 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
I believe even Luther was not in agreement with "the mans doctrine of "free will"...
wildhoney

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10/29/2011 07:40 PM

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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
I believe even Luther was not in agreement with "the mans doctrine of "free will"...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1210277


Man has free will

Man can choose path A or path B..the final destination however will always be C =which is Gods will
Matthew 16>18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it..
Peter was crucified..on Vatican Hill

"Thou shalt not kill" does not apply to murder of one's own kind only, but to all living beings; and this Commandment was inscribed in the human breast long before it was proclaimed from Sinai. ~Leo Tolstoy


You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?

..Immanuel ,The Christ (Sermon Of The Mount)


“WHAT YOU DO TO OTHERS YOU DO TO YOURSELF FOR THAT IS THE LAW..AND THE PROFIT"

..)

Preach the Gospel at all times..and when necessary use words..

St.Francis Of Assisi..

Dont look at where the finger is pointing..but at WHO is doing the pointing


wildhoney14@yahoo.com

[link to www.google.ca]

Be part of the re evolution of the Spirit..say yes to peace and love..be called child of God

Inherit the Kingdom

...Time of the Angels..


oh and PLEASE STOP SENDING ME SPAM FROM AFRICA..thank you :)
Dr_Kynes
User ID: 1223792
United States
10/29/2011 07:45 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
Bravo OP....someone finally gets it.

Those that are damned were fore-ordained to damnation....like the popes and their evil horde.

You people who think you can escape the anti-christ...you cannot unless God the Father grants it to you....but many will pay with their lives.

We have a script and no amount of crypto-catholic "protestant" denominational churches can change that....they are filled with what people call christians, but they don't have the faith of Christ because most of them were not called towards true faith and repentance.

This is offensive to most people....even to others of other religions.... God has chosen some to be saved and the others will be lost.
tkwasny

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10/29/2011 07:52 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
Infinite being the All has no ability to be finite except through symbiotic union with us finites. It is done to obtain the thoughts of not knowing something. This is the purpose free will is established. So God can partake of not knowing something, using us to do so. We are all proxies in service to God either aware of the Presence or unaware of the Union. Regardless, all are tools, all are used.

The Gift, is to be an observer of the Presence within and flow with It and not consider It a director of chaos and confusion. It is our fault for not understanding the flow.
poi098

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10/29/2011 08:01 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
OP,

You are absolutely right to say God will have mercy on whom He chooses. You were chosen and saved before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9). There is no argueing with this. If someone says they don't believe it, I don't care. I wish they did, but I will not try to change their mind. Anyone that ends up NOT SAVED is because they were not predestined for salvation.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/29/2011 09:08 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
Nonsense!
Did you even read and or comprehend the verses out of Romas I posted above???




Man has free will

Man can choose path A or path B..the final destination however will always be C =which is Gods will
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/29/2011 09:12 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
First off let me say, I love the scriptures, I think they are from God, and are truth, this truth, is revealed by the author, and the author is to be known. The truth is within the text, explained by the same one who wrote it, if we interpret it, we end up with a private interpretation. The author is greater than the book, yet that doesn't diminish the book, or the truth that it contains.

Today many know the bible, but have never had God become real to them through the scriptures. Most people have never had God make himself known to them even through a beautiful sunset. To most God is just history, or he is way off in space somewhere.

The importance is not in experiences, but instead experiencing God. I contend, you have to experienced God. Possibly he opens the scriptures to you, and makes them come alive, they became a "word" of God to you. Possibly it would be like you and I having coffee everyday together, sharing life and all things included. We would age together and become deep friends. We may never have a spiritual experience, but we would definitely experience each other, as Moses experienced God at the tent, when Miriam and Aron spoke against Moses, and God spoke about how He and Moses were friends. Moses experienced God. God was experienced by everyone we read about in the OT and the NT.

I fear that the so-called church, the large visible body that meets on the corner of every city in America is missing God. There are many within this so-called visible church (though fewer in number) that truly belong to Jesus, these are the invisible church. From my point of view, the visible church has sprung up not from experiencing God, but from its exposure to the bible "The Scriptures", but this is not necessarily so, of the invisible church "The Ecklesia".

For example most people throughout history couldn't read, we had no printing presses, and when printed most people couldn't afford the bible, this is seen during the dark ages, yet the ecklesia thrived. How? It wasn't because they had a bible; it was because God was real and made himself known to them. Possibly through someone who had a bible, but probably not.

Brother Lawrence / Laubach; in his book practicing the presence; makes the claim that God became real to him, by seeing a tree losing it leaves, knowing life would again come to the tree the following year.

Here forgive me.... Let me expound more and just be open, even though we don't know each other, possibly we can glean from one another as two who see the forest from different angles?

Could it be, that True and False Christianity...Are both produced by the Bible. Everything is about contrast (light, dark, evil, and good), or it's to express God's glory, and his many attributes...God even created evil for this purposes.

The contrast in Christianity is the true church, and the false church. The invisible ecklesia -vs- the large visible body of people in every church, on every corner. The wheat, and the chaff or tare. The good seed and the bad seed. The Pharisee, and Jesus, sheep and Goats, Light and darkness.

Today is a replay of the life of Jesus in his body singular (the one that died on the cross); now this body "His Body" is plural, many membered...The same prosecutions, torments, dying, will happen in us as it did in him. Now the Pharisees are the religious of today. True Christianity and false Christianity, is so close, to the real church, the real walk, the real life...So close that it could even fool the elect, if that were possible....

So how does God establish the tare, this large so-called church. Do we see it throughout time? Yes, and it all started with two trees. The tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. We see the essence of these two trees, in many forms. One is in the visible church, and the invisible church, the wheat and tare.

The large visible church exists and is sustained by the visible, tangible, written word (The Bible). They find themselves at home with the text, they can control it, they build laws, rules, religious rituals, and doctrines. By this same knowledge they also remove God, who is Spirit, out of their midst, issues of control, a form of religion, and rules, that denies the power thereof. There is no body ministry, led of God's Sprit.

Do you think this would all be obvious, and plainly visible, or only visible to us by discernment? It had to be hidden, even from those who were in the midst of it, or else they would not have participated. Both sides, real and false are hidden, even from themselves. If not hidden, you couldn't get anyone to participate in this plan of God.

I'm not against these people; most are genuine, nice, sweet people. But we are discussing truth here. Now God is revealing these things to us, and getting ready to reveal us to each other, to reveal the true church to herself, to reveal the false church to the true.

While most of the members of both groups are wonderful people and well intentioned, the visible false church, is still like the Pharisees of old. They search the scriptures daily, but won't come to Christ, that they might have life. In fact they were never destined to life, this is what the scriptures say, the body / the ecklesia / the invisible church has life, they were destined to life, from the beginning.

The true body, the ecklesia exist by "the word", they know a hidden walk, they know the masters voice. This has got to be the common denominator throughout time, since many could not read, and the few that could read, didn't have a copy of the bible. Yet the Ecklesia flourished, even in the dark ages, and in countries that never allowed sacred texts, like China, and Russia...

Today both flourish, and this thing called church, or churchianity, has said to all, we represent God. But they do not, and God is getting ready to show this world, his true church, the ecklesia....God's mercy, and the world demand such an event, to rid God, of the stain of falsehood. Whether that be TV preachers, or even all the pain caused to so many in the name of God by so-called Christianity, which was NOT Christianity, but instead, it was this false church the large, visible church, this system.

God is separating HIS people "The Ecclesia from this thing called church, "churchianity". He is building his kingdom, it is on the inside. That is what Jesus says.

There is no way for light and darkness to fellowship together and there is NO way all those people in all these churches are truly born again via an encounter with Christ. That encounter must take place...We must experience God.

So there is no way they can fellowship with you, or you with them, if you are part of that invisible "REAL" church, for what fellowship does light have with darkness. You might as well go to a Safeway store and try and "do church" with all the people there, it will not work.

Remember Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice", and man shall not live by bread alone, the word of the Lord came unto, peter rise and eat, ETC. You see what I mean? "The word of the Lord" via "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.

The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the bible about hearing, hardly anything about reading. Everything written in the bible was spoken before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.

We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, to hear the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible, even though God has used the scriptures to do so on occasion. Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a position by this false church, where they have taken the place of God.

Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "the word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....It just will not make sense...

As far as people hearing "The word" vs studying "The scriptures" I see a big difference between the two. One is heard, one is read. Many can read, few can hear. One is always spoken, and one is written, but can be made alive to you, and become a spoken word. God also speaks apart from the scriptures, remember God spoke to Adam and Moses before there was a written bible.

Thus we have interchanged the two, elevating "The bible" above God, and the leading of the Spirit, and we have placed the bible above "The Word"...

I wonder, could we say that we love the scriptures, and that they are inspired, but God never meant for us to live by them, nor the jewish people the Torah. But instead by the Spirit / the word / His breath...His words of promise, leading us into all truth?

We have two types of church. Those led by the Spirit, and those seeing and leaning only on "The book". I love the scriptures, and I have several bibles. BUT we must not elevate the bible above God, and I'm afraid that is what many churches (people) have done.

The "Word" and "The bible" are not one and the same...The common denominator throughout time Has been God reaching out to man, possibly by a sunset, or a person who was "LED" of the spirit to witnesses to you, or God speaks to you, but God has not, at all times used the bible. Of course there are times that the Spirit moves someone, through the use of Scripture, but that is not my point.

What do we say of the first 3000 years of man, until Moses wrote the Torah, where was God? He was doing what he has always done, personally interacting with man.

The faith we have is more than intellectual knowledge, it IS LIFE...Two trees were in the garden; today we face that same thing? "Knowledge" OR "Life"...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/29/2011 09:12 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
I don't believe in free will, a greater level of trust and faith is needed when we believe the truth, that WE REST in HIS hands.



The truth is; there is no free will, at least not for those who are called...Basic bible reading will reveal this truth...





Here's how:

Adam sinned, yet in Genesis we read the story of, Sarah, a king takes her and God says to him, give her back, for I have kept you from sinning against me. Why not keep Adam from sinning? Because God had a plan, no fall in the garden, no sin, means no cross and no crucifixion. Also no marriage supper of the Lamb. All those men in the bible did not cooperate, with God, helping God create a masterful story. The fact is they were "Moved" by God to do God's will.



Then in the story of Moses, we have Moses getting kicked out of Egypt because he killed and Egyptian.



Now imagine, you have to set up that scenario so that, it would unfold as planned...What if that guy had taken a different route or had an extra cup of tea? He wouldn't have been a witness to the murder, by Moses of the Egyptian... and Moses would have stayed in Egypt.



David was promised a son whose kingdom would not end ("in reality Jesus", but yet humanly it was Solomon)...Solomon, the child of promise and prophecy, born out of adultery, and murder....



What if all those men and women in the Old Testament did exactly the right thing, somehow using their free will, to choose, any direction in life they desired. How would we have all those stories?



Ex:What if God called Jonah, and Jonah said "God you want me to go to Nineveh? Sure God, I'll do it"...God says "Now wait Jonah. I need you to refuse, so I can have a huge fish swallow you. I need it for this book I'm writing called "The Bible"... Jonah says "Sorry God no, I have a free will, and I've decided to go to Nineveh"...



Now repeat this example 70-100 times, and we have NO BIBLE STORIES...



Then of course we have Romans 9:16

Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do. In the Scriptures the Lord says to Pharaoh of Egypt, "I let you become Pharaoh, so that I could show you my power and be praised by all people on earth." Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.



Someone may ask, (as we read in Romans Ch 9) "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?" But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God?
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 09:13 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
There is no fee will , in other words man has a free will but he will never chose GOD . The free will choice to chose GOD is not in his nature unless GOD draws him
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 09:33 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
I believe even Luther was not in agreement with "the mans doctrine of "free will"...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1210277


Man has free will

Man can choose path A or path B..the final destination however will always be C =which is Gods will
 Quoting: wildhoney


In other words god CHOSE them for HELL..no matter WHAT they might have wanted.

FUCK THAT!
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 09:35 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
First off let me say, I love the scriptures, I think they are from God, and are truth, this truth, is revealed by the author, and the author is to be known. The truth is within the text, explained by the same one who wrote it, if we interpret it, we end up with a private interpretation. The author is greater than the book, yet that doesn't diminish the book, or the truth that it contains.

Today many know the bible, but have never had God become real to them through the scriptures. Most people have never had God make himself known to them even through a beautiful sunset. To most God is just history, or he is way off in space somewhere.

The importance is not in experiences, but instead experiencing God. I contend, you have to experienced God. Possibly he opens the scriptures to you, and makes them come alive, they became a "word" of God to you. Possibly it would be like you and I having coffee everyday together, sharing life and all things included. We would age together and become deep friends. We may never have a spiritual experience, but we would definitely experience each other, as Moses experienced God at the tent, when Miriam and Aron spoke against Moses, and God spoke about how He and Moses were friends. Moses experienced God. God was experienced by everyone we read about in the OT and the NT.

I fear that the so-called church, the large visible body that meets on the corner of every city in America is missing God. There are many within this so-called visible church (though fewer in number) that truly belong to Jesus, these are the invisible church. From my point of view, the visible church has sprung up not from experiencing God, but from its exposure to the bible "The Scriptures", but this is not necessarily so, of the invisible church "The Ecklesia".

For example most people throughout history couldn't read, we had no printing presses, and when printed most people couldn't afford the bible, this is seen during the dark ages, yet the ecklesia thrived. How? It wasn't because they had a bible; it was because God was real and made himself known to them. Possibly through someone who had a bible, but probably not.

Brother Lawrence / Laubach; in his book practicing the presence; makes the claim that God became real to him, by seeing a tree losing it leaves, knowing life would again come to the tree the following year.

Here forgive me.... Let me expound more and just be open, even though we don't know each other, possibly we can glean from one another as two who see the forest from different angles?

Could it be, that True and False Christianity...Are both produced by the Bible. Everything is about contrast (light, dark, evil, and good), or it's to express God's glory, and his many attributes...God even created evil for this purposes.

The contrast in Christianity is the true church, and the false church. The invisible ecklesia -vs- the large visible body of people in every church, on every corner. The wheat, and the chaff or tare. The good seed and the bad seed. The Pharisee, and Jesus, sheep and Goats, Light and darkness.

Today is a replay of the life of Jesus in his body singular (the one that died on the cross); now this body "His Body" is plural, many membered...The same prosecutions, torments, dying, will happen in us as it did in him. Now the Pharisees are the religious of today. True Christianity and false Christianity, is so close, to the real church, the real walk, the real life...So close that it could even fool the elect, if that were possible....

So how does God establish the tare, this large so-called church. Do we see it throughout time? Yes, and it all started with two trees. The tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. We see the essence of these two trees, in many forms. One is in the visible church, and the invisible church, the wheat and tare.

The large visible church exists and is sustained by the visible, tangible, written word (The Bible). They find themselves at home with the text, they can control it, they build laws, rules, religious rituals, and doctrines. By this same knowledge they also remove God, who is Spirit, out of their midst, issues of control, a form of religion, and rules, that denies the power thereof. There is no body ministry, led of God's Sprit.

Do you think this would all be obvious, and plainly visible, or only visible to us by discernment? It had to be hidden, even from those who were in the midst of it, or else they would not have participated. Both sides, real and false are hidden, even from themselves. If not hidden, you couldn't get anyone to participate in this plan of God.

I'm not against these people; most are genuine, nice, sweet people. But we are discussing truth here. Now God is revealing these things to us, and getting ready to reveal us to each other, to reveal the true church to herself, to reveal the false church to the true.

While most of the members of both groups are wonderful people and well intentioned, the visible false church, is still like the Pharisees of old. They search the scriptures daily, but won't come to Christ, that they might have life. In fact they were never destined to life, this is what the scriptures say, the body / the ecklesia / the invisible church has life, they were destined to life, from the beginning.

The true body, the ecklesia exist by "the word", they know a hidden walk, they know the masters voice. This has got to be the common denominator throughout time, since many could not read, and the few that could read, didn't have a copy of the bible. Yet the Ecklesia flourished, even in the dark ages, and in countries that never allowed sacred texts, like China, and Russia...

Today both flourish, and this thing called church, or churchianity, has said to all, we represent God. But they do not, and God is getting ready to show this world, his true church, the ecklesia....God's mercy, and the world demand such an event, to rid God, of the stain of falsehood. Whether that be TV preachers, or even all the pain caused to so many in the name of God by so-called Christianity, which was NOT Christianity, but instead, it was this false church the large, visible church, this system.

God is separating HIS people "The Ecclesia from this thing called church, "churchianity". He is building his kingdom, it is on the inside. That is what Jesus says.

There is no way for light and darkness to fellowship together and there is NO way all those people in all these churches are truly born again via an encounter with Christ. That encounter must take place...We must experience God.

So there is no way they can fellowship with you, or you with them, if you are part of that invisible "REAL" church, for what fellowship does light have with darkness. You might as well go to a Safeway store and try and "do church" with all the people there, it will not work.

Remember Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice", and man shall not live by bread alone, the word of the Lord came unto, peter rise and eat, ETC. You see what I mean? "The word of the Lord" via "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.

The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the bible about hearing, hardly anything about reading. Everything written in the bible was spoken before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.

We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, to hear the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible, even though God has used the scriptures to do so on occasion. Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a position by this false church, where they have taken the place of God.

Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "the word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....It just will not make sense...

As far as people hearing "The word" vs studying "The scriptures" I see a big difference between the two. One is heard, one is read. Many can read, few can hear. One is always spoken, and one is written, but can be made alive to you, and become a spoken word. God also speaks apart from the scriptures, remember God spoke to Adam and Moses before there was a written bible.

Thus we have interchanged the two, elevating "The bible" above God, and the leading of the Spirit, and we have placed the bible above "The Word"...

I wonder, could we say that we love the scriptures, and that they are inspired, but God never meant for us to live by them, nor the jewish people the Torah. But instead by the Spirit / the word / His breath...His words of promise, leading us into all truth?

We have two types of church. Those led by the Spirit, and those seeing and leaning only on "The book". I love the scriptures, and I have several bibles. BUT we must not elevate the bible above God, and I'm afraid that is what many churches (people) have done.

The "Word" and "The bible" are not one and the same...The common denominator throughout time Has been God reaching out to man, possibly by a sunset, or a person who was "LED" of the spirit to witnesses to you, or God speaks to you, but God has not, at all times used the bible. Of course there are times that the Spirit moves someone, through the use of Scripture, but that is not my point.

What do we say of the first 3000 years of man, until Moses wrote the Torah, where was God? He was doing what he has always done, personally interacting with man.

The faith we have is more than intellectual knowledge, it IS LIFE...Two trees were in the garden; today we face that same thing? "Knowledge" OR "Life"...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1210277


If you're not an Orthodox Christian, you're missing your calling.
poi098

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10/29/2011 09:46 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
I believe even Luther was not in agreement with "the mans doctrine of "free will"...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1210277


Man has free will

Man can choose path A or path B..the final destination however will always be C =which is Gods will
 Quoting: wildhoney


In other words god CHOSE them for HELL..no matter WHAT they might have wanted.

FUCK THAT!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4264391


You be sure and tell God that when you're standing before Him. Talk about Doom time!!!
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
It was pre-destined for Christ to meet Paul on the road. And Paul who was going to persecute the Christians immediately become a follower. This event was pre-destined to happen. And so missionary trips after this conversion spread to Gospel to many.

The first group of believers......referred to as first fruits......were pre-destined. If that group did not believe.........the how could the gospel be spread throughout the world over the course of the next 2,000 years.


God always preserved a remnant throughout the Old Testament.....a small group who remained faithful. And this early group of Christians were also referred to as such.


The writings and letters of Paul are 100% applicable to those that he was writing to. However, there are some sections that are not applicable to all believers over all time. Pre-destination is one of these concepts that was just applicable to the early believers.



From Paul's letter to Christians at Ephesus:

The following verse is applicable to just those early believers receiving this letter:


".......in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will that WE WHO FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST would be to the praise of His glory." (Eph 1: 11-12)


Israel rejecting Christ but God preserving a remnant.....and the Great Mystery.....salvation coming to the Gentiles. (Romans Chps 9, 10, 11). Paul to early Gentile believers:


"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Rm 11: 5)


Calvin made an error in applying Pre=Destination to all believers of every age. It is only applicable to the early believers. From them the Gospel would be spread.....and the church would grow. They were as such a seed from which things would grow later on over the course of many years.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
SORRY, I disagree, this would mean the Gospel as received by them, is not for us...



It was pre-destined for Christ to meet Paul on the road. And Paul who was going to persecute the Christians immediately become a follower. This event was pre-destined to happen. And so missionary trips after this conversion spread to Gospel to many.

The first group of believers......referred to as first fruits......were pre-destined. If that group did not believe.........the how could the gospel be spread throughout the world over the course of the next 2,000 years.


God always preserved a remnant throughout the Old Testament.....a small group who remained faithful. And this early group of Christians were also referred to as such.


The writings and letters of Paul are 100% applicable to those that he was writing to. However, there are some sections that are not applicable to all believers over all time. Pre-destination is one of these concepts that was just applicable to the early believers.



From Paul's letter to Christians at Ephesus:

The following verse is applicable to just those early believers receiving this letter:


".......in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will that WE WHO FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST would be to the praise of His glory." (Eph 1: 11-12)


Israel rejecting Christ but God preserving a remnant.....and the Great Mystery.....salvation coming to the Gentiles. (Romans Chps 9, 10, 11). Paul to early Gentile believers:


"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Rm 11: 5)


Calvin made an error in applying Pre=Destination to all believers of every age. It is only applicable to the early believers. From them the Gospel would be spread.....and the church would grow. They were as such a seed from which things would grow later on over the course of many years.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4209860
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
God chose Pharaoh...Who said hell is forever?



I believe even Luther was not in agreement with "the mans doctrine of "free will"...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1210277


Man has free will

Man can choose path A or path B..the final destination however will always be C =which is Gods will
 Quoting: wildhoney


In other words god CHOSE them for HELL..no matter WHAT they might have wanted.

FUCK THAT!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4264391
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
For those who have faith, no evidence is needed.
For those that do not, no evidence will do.

Peace to you OP
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/29/2011 11:06 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
I don't even know what an orthodox christian is, why do u say that..


First off let me say, I love the scriptures, I think they are from God, and are truth, this truth, is revealed by the author, and the author is to be known. The truth is within the text, explained by the same one who wrote it, if we interpret it, we end up with a private interpretation. The author is greater than the book, yet that doesn't diminish the book, or the truth that it contains.

Today many know the bible, but have never had God become real to them through the scriptures. Most people have never had God make himself known to them even through a beautiful sunset. To most God is just history, or he is way off in space somewhere.

The importance is not in experiences, but instead experiencing God. I contend, you have to experienced God. Possibly he opens the scriptures to you, and makes them come alive, they became a "word" of God to you. Possibly it would be like you and I having coffee everyday together, sharing life and all things included. We would age together and become deep friends. We may never have a spiritual experience, but we would definitely experience each other, as Moses experienced God at the tent, when Miriam and Aron spoke against Moses, and God spoke about how He and Moses were friends. Moses experienced God. God was experienced by everyone we read about in the OT and the NT.

I fear that the so-called church, the large visible body that meets on the corner of every city in America is missing God. There are many within this so-called visible church (though fewer in number) that truly belong to Jesus, these are the invisible church. From my point of view, the visible church has sprung up not from experiencing God, but from its exposure to the bible "The Scriptures", but this is not necessarily so, of the invisible church "The Ecklesia".

For example most people throughout history couldn't read, we had no printing presses, and when printed most people couldn't afford the bible, this is seen during the dark ages, yet the ecklesia thrived. How? It wasn't because they had a bible; it was because God was real and made himself known to them. Possibly through someone who had a bible, but probably not.

Brother Lawrence / Laubach; in his book practicing the presence; makes the claim that God became real to him, by seeing a tree losing it leaves, knowing life would again come to the tree the following year.

Here forgive me.... Let me expound more and just be open, even though we don't know each other, possibly we can glean from one another as two who see the forest from different angles?

Could it be, that True and False Christianity...Are both produced by the Bible. Everything is about contrast (light, dark, evil, and good), or it's to express God's glory, and his many attributes...God even created evil for this purposes.

The contrast in Christianity is the true church, and the false church. The invisible ecklesia -vs- the large visible body of people in every church, on every corner. The wheat, and the chaff or tare. The good seed and the bad seed. The Pharisee, and Jesus, sheep and Goats, Light and darkness.

Today is a replay of the life of Jesus in his body singular (the one that died on the cross); now this body "His Body" is plural, many membered...The same prosecutions, torments, dying, will happen in us as it did in him. Now the Pharisees are the religious of today. True Christianity and false Christianity, is so close, to the real church, the real walk, the real life...So close that it could even fool the elect, if that were possible....

So how does God establish the tare, this large so-called church. Do we see it throughout time? Yes, and it all started with two trees. The tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. We see the essence of these two trees, in many forms. One is in the visible church, and the invisible church, the wheat and tare.

The large visible church exists and is sustained by the visible, tangible, written word (The Bible). They find themselves at home with the text, they can control it, they build laws, rules, religious rituals, and doctrines. By this same knowledge they also remove God, who is Spirit, out of their midst, issues of control, a form of religion, and rules, that denies the power thereof. There is no body ministry, led of God's Sprit.

Do you think this would all be obvious, and plainly visible, or only visible to us by discernment? It had to be hidden, even from those who were in the midst of it, or else they would not have participated. Both sides, real and false are hidden, even from themselves. If not hidden, you couldn't get anyone to participate in this plan of God.

I'm not against these people; most are genuine, nice, sweet people. But we are discussing truth here. Now God is revealing these things to us, and getting ready to reveal us to each other, to reveal the true church to herself, to reveal the false church to the true.

While most of the members of both groups are wonderful people and well intentioned, the visible false church, is still like the Pharisees of old. They search the scriptures daily, but won't come to Christ, that they might have life. In fact they were never destined to life, this is what the scriptures say, the body / the ecklesia / the invisible church has life, they were destined to life, from the beginning.

The true body, the ecklesia exist by "the word", they know a hidden walk, they know the masters voice. This has got to be the common denominator throughout time, since many could not read, and the few that could read, didn't have a copy of the bible. Yet the Ecklesia flourished, even in the dark ages, and in countries that never allowed sacred texts, like China, and Russia...

Today both flourish, and this thing called church, or churchianity, has said to all, we represent God. But they do not, and God is getting ready to show this world, his true church, the ecklesia....God's mercy, and the world demand such an event, to rid God, of the stain of falsehood. Whether that be TV preachers, or even all the pain caused to so many in the name of God by so-called Christianity, which was NOT Christianity, but instead, it was this false church the large, visible church, this system.

God is separating HIS people "The Ecclesia from this thing called church, "churchianity". He is building his kingdom, it is on the inside. That is what Jesus says.

There is no way for light and darkness to fellowship together and there is NO way all those people in all these churches are truly born again via an encounter with Christ. That encounter must take place...We must experience God.

So there is no way they can fellowship with you, or you with them, if you are part of that invisible "REAL" church, for what fellowship does light have with darkness. You might as well go to a Safeway store and try and "do church" with all the people there, it will not work.

Remember Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice", and man shall not live by bread alone, the word of the Lord came unto, peter rise and eat, ETC. You see what I mean? "The word of the Lord" via "The scriptures" can become a fresh word to you, but, we can not use the terms "The word" and "the bible" interchangeably.

The point I'm making is, there is a lot written in the bible about hearing, hardly anything about reading. Everything written in the bible was spoken before it was written. Genesis was spoken, and then written by Moses.

We must come to a common denominator, for people to receive Christ, to hear the message, or to experience Christianity, and it cannot be the bible, even though God has used the scriptures to do so on occasion. Still I love the scriptures, and they are true, they are God inspired. They have just been elevated to a position by this false church, where they have taken the place of God.

Also to express my point, do this: Every place in the scriptures where it says, "the word" or "the word came unto" replace every instance with "The bible"....It just will not make sense...

As far as people hearing "The word" vs studying "The scriptures" I see a big difference between the two. One is heard, one is read. Many can read, few can hear. One is always spoken, and one is written, but can be made alive to you, and become a spoken word. God also speaks apart from the scriptures, remember God spoke to Adam and Moses before there was a written bible.

Thus we have interchanged the two, elevating "The bible" above God, and the leading of the Spirit, and we have placed the bible above "The Word"...

I wonder, could we say that we love the scriptures, and that they are inspired, but God never meant for us to live by them, nor the jewish people the Torah. But instead by the Spirit / the word / His breath...His words of promise, leading us into all truth?

We have two types of church. Those led by the Spirit, and those seeing and leaning only on "The book". I love the scriptures, and I have several bibles. BUT we must not elevate the bible above God, and I'm afraid that is what many churches (people) have done.

The "Word" and "The bible" are not one and the same...The common denominator throughout time Has been God reaching out to man, possibly by a sunset, or a person who was "LED" of the spirit to witnesses to you, or God speaks to you, but God has not, at all times used the bible. Of course there are times that the Spirit moves someone, through the use of Scripture, but that is not my point.

What do we say of the first 3000 years of man, until Moses wrote the Torah, where was God? He was doing what he has always done, personally interacting with man.

The faith we have is more than intellectual knowledge, it IS LIFE...Two trees were in the garden; today we face that same thing? "Knowledge" OR "Life"...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1210277


If you're not an Orthodox Christian, you're missing your calling.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1524241
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/29/2011 11:08 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
Here is who I am:

My testimony, and 4 dreams that I had.

It's not that I think every dream is from God, in fact I don't...Most of mine are stupid and I cant remember them, but these 4 were as if I were really there.

I would love to know what you think they mean.



MY STORY:

I came from a violent home, (drugs, alcohol, gun shots, being chased with knives, people thrown through picture pane windows), in fact I was born three months early because my father kicked my mother in the stomach, I was born weighing two pounds nine ounces, this was DEC of 1956.

As early as 7yrs old, I was out on the streets till 3-4am, I was put in three orphanages... One night I remember, my father snuck into our house, he put a loaded pistol in my hand and told me too shoot my sisters and my mother, it was crazy. Through all of this, (which I wouldn't change), I came out a fairly normal kid, I was involved in sports and didn't do drugs, or drink. I thought I was a survivor, wanting only too make it through another day.

At age 16 (in 1974) I started too sense a need in my life, an emptiness that I couldn't explain. I knew I had too find God/Jesus, but who was HE? I had no idea where too find HIM, so I went to the local library to find books concerning world religions, God, and the occult. At the library I met an ex hippie (Gary Osborn) he saw my books and decided too share the message with me. Gary invited me to pray in the back of his V.W. so I did, I remember saying "God forgive me for my sins, and whatever you have for me I want it all".

Well at first nothing happened I expected, lightening or something. Gary said, "Just go home and praise God" I said, "What's that, mean" Gary said, "Just thank him" So I did just that.

The remaining is sacred to me, before I asked Jesus into my heart, I never heard voices, I never drank, and I never did drugs, but one week after meeting Jesus while in the middle of my last class (during high school) A voice, just as clear, as someone standing next too you, spoke, and as the voice spoke it said to me, "rod tell them about Jesus" I was surprised, but unafraid, I put my hand over my mouth, since I didn't want anyone too think I was talking too myself, I said (to whoever spoke too me) "I don't know what to say" the voice said "don't be afraid, I'll give you the words to say" To this day I don't remember my words, but I spoke too those kids about Jesus and salvation, their mouths just dropped open and then, class was over, I walked out of that room, feeling like I had never felt before.

The next day was Saturday; I slept in the living room on an old couch. When I woke it was early and I decided too turn on the TV, to watch my favorite cartoon, the roadrunner.

As I sat there watching the TV, I got up and looked outside, everything was so beautiful, (I never appreciated nature, I just wanted too make it thru another day). BUT now it was so pretty, I sat back down on the couch, and as I did I was somewhere else.

I was sitting at a long rough hewn table, to my right was God, the father, I couldn't see him, to my left was Satan, him I could see (he looked like a man only very big) then in front of me was Jesus, three bowls appear, filled with what looked like porridge. Now the father spoke and said Satan dismiss yourself, Satan stood and screamed, then vanished. Three bites were taken out of the bowl. Then all at once I was watching myself from a distance, walking with Jesus up a grassy pathway. Jesus was speaking to me but from a distance I couldn't hear him, I could see myself shaking my head (like I understand) then thru my eyes I saw the house where I had been sleeping.

I didn't know what had happened; I'd never experienced anything like that, but I knew two things, I had too find a pastor to talk too, and I KNEW GOD loved me and wanted something from me...my total surrender, my life totally under his control, every second, moment by moment, and I was consumed with this one desire, to live too PLEASE HIM. Let me give you an example: When a friend from school would come over and say, "Hey rod." "Let's go to a show" I'd say, "hold on." Then Id go in the bathroom and pray, "Lord should I go?" Sometimes the Lord would say "go", sometimes "no" At times He was silent, when this happened I would look inside, to my heart, (Spirit), (see Colossians 3:15) if I had peace I would go, If not, Id stay home.

As I practiced this new desire, (surrender), I noticed the voice of the Lord became more frequent and clearer, (John 10:27). It always had to agree with scripture. The word of the Lord will always agree with the true meaning and / or the true interpretation of scripture).

I new I needed to get a bible, I went to a bookstore and I got the largest family bible Id ever seen, with pictures and everything. I was so happy. That night the voice of the lord said, "Read Matthew 5." I had to look in the contents; I didn't know where Matthew was. When I found it and started too read, the words became a ("Word of the Lord to me") they just jumped off the page, they seemed to come alive, and they filled me, with hope, love and peace. Now I knew God loved me, and my sins were gone, I was forgiven...

As time passed I grew, sometimes Id walk into a busy office or building (like a D.O.L) and the Lord would say go sit by that guy, I would strike up a conversation, then say "you don't know me but I'm a Christian and God is going too share with me about your life" I don't mean simple things like "you have the flu" or "Headaches", but deep, personal things that others couldn't know or even guess. People would usually start to cry and ask "how did you know?" I'd say "I didn't but God knew".

One of the best lessons from the Lord concerning trusting Him happened like this; I was traveling from Philly to Atlantic city, I got on the road, and started to hitch a ride, (it wasn't illegal at that time) within one hour and twenty minuets I was in Atlantic city (which was a one hour drive!) I got 4 different rides, as I stepped into each vehicle I boldly proclaimed "Hi I'm a child of the King, and God's going to bless you for picking me up!" God gave me very personal details about each of those people and all but one came to Christ.

When I got to Atlantic City, God said "Rod, when you get to the prayer meeting tonight I want you to give all your money, to Johnnie Diaz". I said "Lord that's all I've got?" (About 300.00) God replied; "you take care of your brothers and sisters in the Lord and I'll take care of you." So upon arriving in Atlantic City, I secretly gave all my money to Johnnie, (this was to cover something for Johnnie that was very personal, so I know he didn't share this with anyone).

That night I asked myself "how am I going to get back to work, tomorrow? I didn't have a penny, not even enough for bus fare, and in my spirit I knew I wasn't to hitch hike, but instead the Lord wanted me on the bus. After sleeping that night and leaving the brothers house the next day, (where the meeting had been held), I started walking to the bus station. As I got closer and closer, I was imagining, "is the drivers going to just "know" he's suppose to let me ride for free?" But as I approached the depot, a brother named "Chicky" came out of his house and said "rod I think the Lord wants me to give this to you." It was exactly what I needed for bus fare!

This has been a short summary of my life, oh one more thing. Life didn't continue this way for me, I ruined that. I don't live surrendered moment by moment now, or my heart is hidden from me, I'm just not sure. Where does man find the will and desire to live such a life, or is it a gift as is repentance?

Should I confess the most difficult thing in my life with you? After all we are strangers! After living this way for sometime and seeing my life change, and having peace beyond comprehension, I disobeyed the lord after he spoke too me. I lived to obey him, it was my passion...I knew a man, he was a believer, and his name was Bob Chorney. Bob was like the father I never had. Bob is dead now, I loved him very much, and we forgave one another.

One day I went to visit Bob, we talked and prayed for a while then Bob said, "rod", "Paula is gone (Bob's wife). "Why don't you go to dinner with me"? Immediately the Lord spoke and said "rod don't go" I said Bobby I can't go. He said "oh rod go with me ". I said Bob I can't. I prayed back too the lord, in my mind saying "Lord it will be alright, you know I don't drink, I'll just eat something with Bob" The Lord didn't reply. So we went. All was well until a brother named Aggie Rodriguez, started to argue with Bob, I couldn't watch, so I started to leave, as I went outside Bob said "Rod if your going to walk you might as well walk all the way back too Washington, and don't come back" OH the pain. Well the next morning, Bob and Paula showed up, Bob said "rod forgive me I'm so sorry", the Lord spoke instantly and said "rod forgive him, go too him tell him it's ok and that you love him". I said "Lord I can't. I won't, it hurts too bad".

Soon I left for Washington. My life, outside of God's will, was torture. No peace, no answers, sin in total control.

Jean Nicholas Grou says, "God delights in two things, for a man too know God and too know himself." I now know what I'm capable of without him, living life for myself, Sinning, being rebellious. I want to recommend a couple books that I discovered a few years ago, the book is "Practicing the presence" BY Lawrence and Labach, there are two versions this one is best and includes Labach's testimony. "Hinds feet on High places" and "The breaking of the outer man for the release of the spirit" By Watchman Nee are very good also.

1).How do you describe this LIFE? As a Christian it's hard to do. As I recall moments in my own life, I think of times of stillness, in the midst of activity or in the quiet of night. The presence of His Spirit was there, sometimes speaking other times He was silent, yet the undeniable presence of His Spirit was so real. You couldn't describe it too anyone else, sometimes he was so near, almost physical, at other times He was, just felt, deep in your heart. I could at times think, and He would answer. Sometimes the answer was spoken, and at other times it was a still small voice in my heart. Sometimes I would see a person, and while looking at them, I knew about them. I recall the passion to tell others about him at any given moment, looking for such an occasion never caring where I was, or who was near by. Constantly His Love moved over me in waves and yet it abode, never departing. I would wake up in the middle of the night and He was there, like a mother hen. I remember the love for others that was not my own. I remember feeling, and being, separate from the world yet still in its midst. I recall not worrying about the kind of car I drove, or the condition of my clothes, knowing that He was fully aware of all these things.


Here is Dream #1:

I was on the head of a beast, in a large body of water (Like the ocean). It was night and the darkness was so real it could be felt. The clouds above were very thick and black. The beast was thrashing as if it wanted to throw me off. I was so afraid!
I was holding on as tight as I could. Then I looked up, and when I did, the clouds opened and rays of light came through the clouds, with the light came that voice that I had heard before and knew so well.

He said "Rod; if I'm ever to use you, I must break you"!
I woke, wet with sweat, shaking...Saying as I woke, "thank you, Lord you haven't forgotten me"

Here is Dream #2:

I am in a church; it is a large church, one that in reality I have never seen. This was a dream that was so real; it was as if I were really there.
In the dream I am cleaning the bathroom floor, on my hands and knees, with a small brush. I stand as a priest comes into the room. I start to speak to him, about spiritual things, he listens, and then I leave the restroom and enter the foyer.

I notice the large room is built in a round fashion and that the windows are also large. People are leaving to go outside. As I exit the building, an earthquake hits, I look up and the sky is doing this "warp 9 star trek" kind of thing. I look to my left and I notice a man is in his car, his head is bleeding, he is dead.

Everyone starts to rejoice, saying "yes that is the big one"! I yell "No". "There is another one coming, and it is much larger"

I start to run for my home, and as I cross a large open area, I reach what looks like a ditch. I jump, but instead of a ditch it a huge open area, a chasm, the ground thousands of feet below! I start to fall so fast, picking up speed as I fall. I yell out "Jesus save me" Something grabs me and lowers me to the ground gently...I start running again.

Here is Dream # 3.

I see a street sign, the name on the sign is Jordan Road. I am walking and then I get picked up by someone in a van. He asks were I'm going and I tell him a few miles ahead.

Then as we reach the destination, I thank him, and look to my right, there is a house in a field. The house is glowing and the light is emanating from the inside of the house, and is visible to me even from a distance.

I know the people within the house are waiting for me, and that I have been somewhere, doing HIS will / work, and that I traveled in a spiritual way, but arrived back in the van.

The love and light from the house are supernatural, the love I feel for them, and the love I perceive from them is not normal love.


Here is Dream # 4:

I am in a large room, with many people, I recognize one or two people, the room is full of people from many different places.

I am standing on a raised platform, that is approx 6-8 inches higher than the floor.

Then I know I am suppose to speak the following words; "Holy Spirit come"...
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 11:19 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
"Many are called, few are chosen".

It is very clear, God calls those He chooses, they are then lead to Jesus, or Jesus to them.

That is why Jesus would visit an town for just ONE person.

We are not of this world.

I think many people receive the call then go to a "church". However, if they then don't pick up the Bible and read God's Word and strive to understand what it says - gain wisdom and the Truth, they sit there listening to a potential deceiver in the pulpit leading them astray. People who are called MUST pick up the Bible and trust God to show them - not MAN.

God's Words are sealed to those who don't believe truly in God. The greatest gift God gave us was Jesus - "man" was taken out of the way as your pathway to God.

When you read the words "You will be deceived"...most don't listen or truly believe what He is saying.
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 11:26 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
I believe even Luther was not in agreement with "the mans doctrine of "free will"...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1210277


Man has free will

Man can choose path A or path B..the final destination however will always be C =which is Gods will
 Quoting: wildhoney


In other words god CHOSE them for HELL..no matter WHAT they might have wanted.

FUCK THAT!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4264391


You be sure and tell God that when you're standing before Him. Talk about Doom time!!!
 Quoting: poi098


HOw so??

What if I WANTED to love God..but..all along I was chosen by him to roast in his OH so loving HELL?

Would you have a baby..no..TWO babies...one was to be killed as a teenager in some satanic ritual..and one was to be spared....do you think that teenager would take the news that..no matter HOW much he loved his parents..and wanted to live..that..SORRY..but you were born to be tortured to death on a satanic altar.

Well..THATS what GOD is doing..and thats exactly what you are SAYING he is doing and agreeing to.

I am so sick to death of you christians who are REALLY satanists at heart spreading your evil hate filled torturing hellfire doctrines of evil.

DO you have any idea how EVIL you all are by agreeing with this?
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 11:32 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
SORRY, I disagree, this would mean the Gospel as received by them, is not for us...


***********************************************


Let me put it another way then. If Christ came.....and none of the people believed that were there at that time......then there would be no church today.


That early seed was planted by God......the first group of believers appointed by God.


For people of later generations......having thus been exposed to the gospel.......it is a matter of free will to accept it or reject it.
ChildOfGod
User ID: 4253615
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10/29/2011 11:35 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
Whosoever will, may come.

When men respond to God's light, God will give them more.

He looked down through the corridor of time and saw who would believe.

And when hearts become bitter and hardened and continuously rebel against him, they depart further and further from Him. When people withdraw from God, He will eventually let them have their way, and He will withdraw from them.

What you believe about the Cross will determine your destiny. Don't harden your heart. God is unwilling that anyone should perish. He is loving, and He is just....He will judge righteously....He is the Supreme Intelligence, so He cannot judge wrongly.
Anonymous Coward
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10/29/2011 11:39 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
...


Man has free will

Man can choose path A or path B..the final destination however will always be C =which is Gods will
 Quoting: wildhoney


In other words god CHOSE them for HELL..no matter WHAT they might have wanted.

FUCK THAT!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4264391


You be sure and tell God that when you're standing before Him. Talk about Doom time!!!
 Quoting: poi098


HOw so??

What if I WANTED to love God..but..all along I was chosen by him to roast in his OH so loving HELL?

Would you have a baby..no..TWO babies...one was to be killed as a teenager in some satanic ritual..and one was to be spared....do you think that teenager would take the news that..no matter HOW much he loved his parents..and wanted to live..that..SORRY..but you were born to be tortured to death on a satanic altar.

Well..THATS what GOD is doing..and thats exactly what you are SAYING he is doing and agreeing to.

I am so sick to death of you christians who are REALLY satanists at heart spreading your evil hate filled torturing hellfire doctrines of evil.

DO you have any idea how EVIL you all are by agreeing with this?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4264391

God doesn't roast people in Hell, Forever They will be dead forever not burning forever Slight difference

This is twisted, God is Not the Author of confusion that's Satan

I don't hear anyone forcing Hell Doctrine down your Throat that is Catholicism IE Not Biblical and of Pagan Origin

It is up to you entirely if you want to worship God or Not
and I for one Respect your Decision whatever you choose
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/29/2011 11:41 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
NOT TRUE...God is the initiator, not the responder, waiting for our free will to fill him in on the details as to what to do next. Plus you must not have read the verses from Romans 9 posted above...Or is it a comprehension problem, or does it conflict with YOUR DOCTRINES???


Whosoever will, may come.

When men respond to God's light, God will give them more.

He looked down through the corridor of time and saw who would believe.

And when hearts become bitter and hardened and continuously rebel against him, they depart further and further from Him. When people withdraw from God, He will eventually let them have their way, and He will withdraw from them.

What you believe about the Cross will determine your destiny. Don't harden your heart. God is unwilling that anyone should perish. He is loving, and He is just....He will judge righteously....He is the Supreme Intelligence, so He cannot judge wrongly.
 Quoting: ChildOfGod 4253615
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1210277
United States
10/29/2011 11:42 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
Whosoever he draws may come!

Whosoever will, may come.

When men respond to God's light, God will give them more.

He looked down through the corridor of time and saw who would believe.

And when hearts become bitter and hardened and continuously rebel against him, they depart further and further from Him. When people withdraw from God, He will eventually let them have their way, and He will withdraw from them.

What you believe about the Cross will determine your destiny. Don't harden your heart. God is unwilling that anyone should perish. He is loving, and He is just....He will judge righteously....He is the Supreme Intelligence, so He cannot judge wrongly.
 Quoting: ChildOfGod 4253615

Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1210277
United States
10/29/2011 11:43 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
YEP!


"Many are called, few are chosen".

It is very clear, God calls those He chooses, they are then lead to Jesus, or Jesus to them.

That is why Jesus would visit an town for just ONE person.

We are not of this world.

I think many people receive the call then go to a "church". However, if they then don't pick up the Bible and read God's Word and strive to understand what it says - gain wisdom and the Truth, they sit there listening to a potential deceiver in the pulpit leading them astray. People who are called MUST pick up the Bible and trust God to show them - not MAN.

God's Words are sealed to those who don't believe truly in God. The greatest gift God gave us was Jesus - "man" was taken out of the way as your pathway to God.

When you read the words "You will be deceived"...most don't listen or truly believe what He is saying.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1555756
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1530791
United States
10/29/2011 11:44 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
You christians are so blind and utterly without knowledge.

Paul was the enemy of the entire Jesus movement, and you guys are so brainwashed you think you have no freewill.

Course in a way you do not. You are Paul's slaves.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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United States
10/29/2011 11:46 PM
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Re: Christian convince me I'm wrong...Please
Try this...A theologians view


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