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Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?

 
The_Viceroy

User ID: 6170577
United States
12/10/2011 12:38 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
I appreciate your observations but I don't totally agree with them. For one thing, there is a big difference between "restore" and "reset". A "reset" could mean virtually anything is on the other side and something even potentially worse than what we have now. I think that many OWSers have been duped into thinking that they are doing something positive, but the motivation of those behind OWS are NOT positive. Contrary to what many OWS supporters would like to believe, the philosophy behind the movement is nothing new. True that it is now manifesting itself in a different way but the underlying philosophy has been tried and imposed on societies time and time again throughout history with devastatingly negative results each time. An imposed "fairness" cannot and does not work. Never has, never will, no matter how much smarter the current crop of self-important "geniuses" think they are than anyone who has come before them. many in the country and around the world are rightfully angry but there is a positive anger and a negative anger. In OWS, I see negative anger based on envy and petty jealousy, two of man's most destructive vices. I don't see any positive outcome from a movement based on negative anger. And, though the rank and file OWSer may not have a plan for what comes after this "reset" they want, you can bet your life that TPTB behind the movement DO have a plan, and it most certainly does not include the expansion or preservation of the average person's right or liberties. I can assure you of that.

As far as "restoration" of the system, that is a kind of reset in itself. But it is a positive reset and I am still of the opinion that it can be done, at least in the US. You say that people can change and become more caring in the absence of money. I agree. But then that also means that they have the capacity within them to change without having to suffer through the chaos of a collapse. In the case of the US, our Founders did not design our system to work under the current circumstances. In fact, they told us flat out that it wouldn't. Our system is the way it is because we, as citizens, are lacking the virtue and moral foundation for it to be any other way. We have become cynical, aloof, disengaged and self-absorbed and thus have allowed thieves to run roughshod. We haven't only allowed it but we have aided and abetted in it by or silent acceptance. Evil flourishes because we have allowed it to.

I hope you agree with the premise that empowering any governing body to "impose fairness" onto a society is destined to fail. But when I ask the OWSers to flesh out their anger and walk us through their Utopian fantasy to their desired conclusion, all I ever get are blank stares and philosophic blather. I ask, where are these perfect and uncorruptable people that will decide what is fair and impose it onto us all without trampling the rights and liberties of every single citizen? Such people have never existed and never will exist. But yet some have been convinced that they do. Those are the "dangerously naive" that I refer to. Any system is only as good as the people within it, but honesty and integrity have been expunged from the public narrative. Thus we expect people to behave properly and play by the rules only by threat of force. That only makes for smarter, bolder and more devious criminals.

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/10/2011 12:42 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 04:17 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
I appreciate your observations but I don't totally agree with them.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Good! In a universe in which no two things are identical it certainly doesn't surprise me that all humans have a unique perspective. I don't hope for agreement. I hope for constructive dialogue. Like this one. For which I thank you.

For one thing, there is a big difference between "restore" and "reset". A "reset" could mean virtually anything is on the other side and something even potentially worse than what we have now.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy

Quite right. I think the issue is if you believe there is something in the system that is worth restoring. Without getting too deep into it I can say that it is my perspective that the most fundamental keystones upon which the whole economic system is built are flawed. Not just flawed "by accident" but callously created to enslave everyone but the very, very few who own the system. There is a handful of dynastic families to who everything flows. The system is created to perpetuate and deepen that reality. Any "fix" that might restore things will be a cosmetic change on the surface. All we'll be doing is making a bigger problem yet that we'll have to deal with later. We need to have no more central banking at all. No more money created out of thin air with nothing to back it. No more money created out of national debt and therefore no more inflation. Those things are just for starters. But there is no way in hell the elite wealthy ones that own the system are going to let that happen. If they hold the reigns of power then they will make sure their system stays in place.

The US was founded with the idea that these power mongers with their centralised banks would be kept out. They inveigled themselves into you country and the rot set in. They stole the sole of America. The greatest nation on earth was turned into a pawn for their interests. If there is a country that has steadfastly held out against central banking as a concept (and therefore is not controllable by them) then America is at war with that country. Or it will soon be. And the second a new replacement government is formed, one of the first things they do is install a centralised bank.

The power elite don't give a damn about politics or voting or any of that game. It is all just a bit of light entertainment to keep us believing that we "have the power". They own the power because they own the money system. The politicians are bought and paid for. And if they won't play ball they are dealt with. Then they do play ball or they die.

Sometimes the only way to kill a parasite is to let the host die too. Our financial system is like that. If it lives even just a little bit the parasite lives on it.

It can't be restored.

I think that many OWSers have been duped into thinking that they are doing something positive, but the motivation of those behind OWS are NOT positive.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Thats a perspective. I have a different one entirely. I might be wrong. You might be wrong. Or we both might be wrong. Who can tell. The thing with OWS is that it remains resolutly leaderless. In other words it is compsed of and lead by everyone that is there. The research I have done into it indicattes this to be true. I see from what you say you don't believe this. Well us arguing this point is fruitless. We each have a point of view. We each have done some research and we each have filtered our research according to our pre-existing paradigms.

I don't know if you'd care to see a little from the other side of the fence? Not to try to convince you that I am right, you understand, just to show you that this other perspective is not a simple-minded unreasoned hope. Here is some interesting reading for you in this vein:

Here is a really well written piece from Rolling Stone Magazine that gives a great overview of what this strange amorphous movement is all about: [link to www.rollingstone.com]

Here is a piece written by the brilliant author Naomi Wolf, none less, detailing exactly why The Powers That Be are so very eager to violently oppress what their press mouthpieces have dismissed as an inarticulate rabble. If they were that unfocussed then there would be no threat, right? Read on (its the first link in this google search): [link to www.google.co.za]

And now watch this. This is Deepak Chopra addressing a gathering at Occupy Los Angeles. The crowd repeats his words because PA systems were heavy-handedly outlawed. The politicians stupidly thought that would mute the Occupy movement. It didn't. In a beautiful reversal it made what is said more powerful and personal to everyone there. But watch this powerful message from an amazing human being:

[link to www.youtube.com]

That, if you felt inclined to look at it, was just a few bits of the view "from the other side of the fence" that I could pull together at short notice. The point here, really, is that there is another perspective that is, I believe not only defensible but also closer to the truth. It is that in fact the OWS movement is driven by a deep desire to make things better. These are people that are putting at a minimum their physical comfort and at a maximum their personal safety on the line to BE THERE. To say "enough". To do something concrete to bring change where, they earnestly believe, change is needed.

Are they being manipulated? This is possible. It is always possible that, no matter what position we take, we have been manipulated. If you were honest about it I think you'd have to agree that the information that you have been presented with and upon which you are making your decisions is not always perfectly unbiased. It must be possible that you too are being manipulated to one degree or another. No?

It IS possible.

But if you scratch into what seems to be going on with OWS is that there really does (to me) seem to be something new here. They are steadfastly refusing to be lead. Every time some clever-dick politician pulled in hoping to lead a ready-made pack, the "pack" turned him down and chose not to give him a platform. It happened a few times already. Any one can "be there" but no one leads. Because everyone leads.

It really seems to me to be the case.

But of course you might feel I am mislead and there really is a hidden group manipulating all of it. Sure. Can't prove you wrong. But my heart and my gut says this is something different.

And finally I return to my beginning point. I don't think it really matters. The financial system is in its death throes. Occupy is really just a symptom. It is not the cause and it won't be the cure.

The system will die and then we all, collectively, will have to be the cure. And yes, you are right. There are no uncorruptible ones that we should give power to to make things fair. This will never happen. Give them power and things will go wrong. And so the answer actually lies more in the direction of what OWS is doing that in the direction of politicians and bankers. They have the power and they aren't even trying to pretend anymore that they are fairly looking after anybodies interests. They are just blatantly serving themselves. So I agree. I think this truth points to the need for a whole new way of doing the business of life.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 05:12 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
Well taken. Let's take your mention of the movement's leaderlessness. OK. Many have attempted to lead, only to be slapped down by those who chose to have no leader, or perhaps want to lead themselves, or perhaps have some method in mind of electing/ appointing a leader(s) of some kind. Who knows? Any society as complex as the US will need to have some type of leadership at some point, especially if the system is collapsing. My fear is what that spur-of-the-moment leadership will look like, where it will come from and from where it will claim its authority.

Yes, we can play the scenario out to the collapse but what form it takes from there cannot accurately be predicted by anyone. One thing I do know though is that the "leaderlessness" will not last for long. And my concern is that there are those behind the scenes that do have a new system and a new leadership ready to install when they think the time is right. As I said, OWS is new and new to most involved but the premise on which it is based is not new at all. Many have thought long and hard about it, written about it and have worked long and hard to bring it into public being. And those I speak of are not the purest of souls by any stretch. So, in that respect, I don't need to know exactly what OWS claims to be about because I already understand the motivations that have brought it into being.
The_Viceroy

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United States
12/11/2011 10:15 AM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
"Our intention is to disrupt the empire, to incapacitate it, to put pressure on the cracks, to make it hard to carry out its bloody functioning against the people of the world, to join the world struggle, to attack from the inside."

"Our job is to tap the discontent seething in many sectors of the population, to find allies everywhere people are hungry or angry, to mobilize poor and working people against imperialism."

"Socialism is the total opposite of capitalism/imperialism. It is the rejection of empire and white supremacy. Socialism is the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie, the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the eradication of the social system based on profit."

"The only path to the final defeat of imperialism and the building of socialism is revolutionary war. Revolutionary war will be complicated and protracted. It includes mass struggle and clandestine struggle, peaceful and violent, political and economic, cultural and military, where all forms are developed in harmony with the armed struggle."

- Bill Ayers (Prairie Fire: The Politics of Revolutionary Anti-Imperialism, 1974)



So you have these groups that have been active since the mid-1960's, SDS, MDS, Weather Underground and others who were responsible for organizing civil uprisings in the 1960's and 1970's that were organizing the exact same groups and calling for the exact same thing as OWS is, all the same players involved with direct ties to Obama as recently as 4 years ago, using the exact same tactics and language that they did 40 years ago but some people can't put 2 and 2 together and realize that this is being orchestrated from the top down. No, not every action being orchestrated but the stoking, tactics, organizing of events and the general methods of agitation is identical to what these people organized 40 years ago. I am old enough to remember all of this crap going on and being reported on a daily basis back then, the riots, disruptions, violence was broadcast daily and I remember the players. Most of the people involved in OWS are not, except for those behind it. In that respect, OWS is nothing new. It is something that these players have been working to roll out for decades when they thought the time was right. They are pushing it now, while their pal and fellow traveler is occupying the White House. I see it. Its so easy to see for anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes studying these people. They DO have a system ready. As Ayers stated, a "dictatorship of the proletariat". They are thinking 10 steps ahead of the actual rank and file protesters on the street. Bringing this about has been their life's work.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6939520
South Africa
12/11/2011 01:05 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
Revolutionaries are revolutionary.

Is that what you are saying, Viceroy?

I hope so. Because at least that makes sense.

The rest of what you are saying is an attempt at guilt by association. Like "Hitler loved dogs, Freddie loves dogs, therefore Freddie must be a Nazi".

Many have tried and are continuing to try to politically own OWS. There is neither proof nor even evidence that anyone is leading it. In fact, quite to the contrary, any attempts to claim political leadership are constantly rebuffed. OWS is what it is: an angry uprising of people who would like to bring profound change to a system that is sick.

You seem determined to believe otherwise irrespective of any evidence. That's your right but it does make a debate rather moot.

Now, Viceroy, how about you actually address, just once, just a little bit, some of these contentions that I have made:

1. The world economy is busy destroying itself IRRESPECTIVE of OWS. That it has been in deep trouble for a while now and the only way it is staying alive at the moment is by cannibalizing itself. Central banks are printing money to pay the debts of the banks. Joe Public is both directly and indirectly funding private banking institutions with taxes and with the invisible tax called inflation. And it doesn't help that he is. Still the whole thing is going down the toilet. Jobs are disappearing and salaries are shrinking while bankers get a free pass and get obscene salaries and bonuses. When their businesses are actually failing but for these bailouts. Should this NOT make people angry? That jobs are impossible to find and when you DO find a job the salary is almost insulting and taxes and inflation are crippling and for all that money is taken from them and given to the very businesses that caused the mess in the first place. And there is nothing they can do about it. Should people NOT be angry about this? Should they conveniently and patiently stay how and wait for the masters to give them a better deal?

2. Tell me that the system as it stands does not require constant growth. Which means constant consumption. Tell me it is not so that planet has limited resources. Because constant growth on a limited resource is a mathematically guaranteed disaster. No matter who does or says what. That simple fact guarantees the system will fail. It must. And it is. OWS or no OWS. Tell me I am wrong.

The way the system deals with this fact (and pretty much every other self-created disaster) is to try to kick the can down the road. In practice this means that the current financial system promotes and rewards destructive and abusive practices. Destructive of the planet and destructive of human beings. Tell me that this is not so. Tell me that people should not get angry when they see massive corporations behaving in a way that can only be described as evil... and getting away with it because they have clout and power. Because the politicians dance when they pull the strings. And when ordinary people cry foul those ordinary people are treated as if THEY were the criminals. Tell e that people should NOT get angry about this.

3. Finally, the central bank issue: The US was founded without a central bank and central banking was held to be anathema in the US's early years. Central banking was then foisted upon the US with clever financial and political shenanigans. Since then the US has become a tool of the central bankers. The US central bank does not belong to the US nor to US citizens and it is not under the control of the US government. Quite the opposite. The US is owned by these central bankers! They own all sides of the political divide to the extent that politics is just a game show and the central bankers are always the winners. They also, directly or indirectly, own the media and so own the debate and discussion that happens in the nation. The own the military-industrial complex. War is good for them. So war is constantly made. If they want to push up profits another war will be manufactured somewhere in the world and you and your family can be forcibly drafted, put into a uniform and sent off to kill and be killed. Because they say so. And you cannot vote them out. There is nothing you can do to stop them. If you try they can have you put in jail. Pretty much forever. And without a trial.

A similar behind-the-scenes coup has taken place in most nations of the world and so most now also have a central bank. Nations of the world that held out against this evil practice of central banking have been warred upon by the US. Systematically every single one. Each has been declared to be "evil" for one reason or another and each has been attacked. Their governments have been replaced by other governments that are often just as evil (or worse) than the previous government but the difference has been that the replacement government has been willing to have a central bank in place. On the other side of the coin there are some REALLY evil sonofabitches in power around the world but, as they DO have a central bank, they are left to do as they please.

The world is the play thing of a very small handful of very powerful and insanely wealthy individuals. And there is no legal recourse against them and not legal way you can refuse their control over pretty much every aspect of your life, from the food that you eat, to what goes in your water, to the things you are allowed to do and the places you are allowed to go. If they want it controlled, it will be. You can now legally be abused in any number of ways. Saying "no" is illegal and can result in your imprisonment.

Should this NOT make people angry?

Now how about you address these issues. These are the KINDS of issues that OWSers are angry about. This is the kind of thing that gets peoples blood boiling to the point that they want to go and destroy the monster that is the financial/political system. If the system is THAT sick then it needs to be put down like a rabid dog.

So how about you address these issues instead of telling me that OWSers are simply envious and greedy. That they are simply tools for this-or-that socialist entity (or whatever other Macarthyesque code-word for "evil" you want to label them with) .

Talk to me about the REASONS people are so damn angry that they are willing to be out in the cold all day and all night, that they are willing to expose themselves to violently abusive arrest, to being attacked with tear gas etc etc.

Talk to THOSE issues and we might just have a discussion here.

But more specious and baseless speculation about who is running this thing and what the motivations and mindsets of those on the street might be... that becomes stale.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6991530
United States
12/12/2011 09:48 AM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
Revolutionaries are revolutionary.

Is that what you are saying, Viceroy?

I hope so. Because at least that makes sense.

The rest of what you are saying is an attempt at guilt by association. Like "Hitler loved dogs, Freddie loves dogs, therefore Freddie must be a Nazi".

Many have tried and are continuing to try to politically own OWS. There is neither proof nor even evidence that anyone is leading it. In fact, quite to the contrary, any attempts to claim political leadership are constantly rebuffed. OWS is what it is: an angry uprising of people who would like to bring profound change to a system that is sick.

You seem determined to believe otherwise irrespective of any evidence. That's your right but it does make a debate rather moot.

Now, Viceroy, how about you actually address, just once, just a little bit, some of these contentions that I have made:

1. The world economy is busy destroying itself IRRESPECTIVE of OWS. That it has been in deep trouble for a while now and the only way it is staying alive at the moment is by cannibalizing itself. Central banks are printing money to pay the debts of the banks. Joe Public is both directly and indirectly funding private banking institutions with taxes and with the invisible tax called inflation. And it doesn't help that he is. Still the whole thing is going down the toilet. Jobs are disappearing and salaries are shrinking while bankers get a free pass and get obscene salaries and bonuses. When their businesses are actually failing but for these bailouts. Should this NOT make people angry? That jobs are impossible to find and when you DO find a job the salary is almost insulting and taxes and inflation are crippling and for all that money is taken from them and given to the very businesses that caused the mess in the first place. And there is nothing they can do about it. Should people NOT be angry about this? Should they conveniently and patiently stay how and wait for the masters to give them a better deal?

2. Tell me that the system as it stands does not require constant growth. Which means constant consumption. Tell me it is not so that planet has limited resources. Because constant growth on a limited resource is a mathematically guaranteed disaster. No matter who does or says what. That simple fact guarantees the system will fail. It must. And it is. OWS or no OWS. Tell me I am wrong.

The way the system deals with this fact (and pretty much every other self-created disaster) is to try to kick the can down the road. In practice this means that the current financial system promotes and rewards destructive and abusive practices. Destructive of the planet and destructive of human beings. Tell me that this is not so. Tell me that people should not get angry when they see massive corporations behaving in a way that can only be described as evil... and getting away with it because they have clout and power. Because the politicians dance when they pull the strings. And when ordinary people cry foul those ordinary people are treated as if THEY were the criminals. Tell e that people should NOT get angry about this.

3. Finally, the central bank issue: The US was founded without a central bank and central banking was held to be anathema in the US's early years. Central banking was then foisted upon the US with clever financial and political shenanigans. Since then the US has become a tool of the central bankers. The US central bank does not belong to the US nor to US citizens and it is not under the control of the US government. Quite the opposite. The US is owned by these central bankers! They own all sides of the political divide to the extent that politics is just a game show and the central bankers are always the winners. They also, directly or indirectly, own the media and so own the debate and discussion that happens in the nation. The own the military-industrial complex. War is good for them. So war is constantly made. If they want to push up profits another war will be manufactured somewhere in the world and you and your family can be forcibly drafted, put into a uniform and sent off to kill and be killed. Because they say so. And you cannot vote them out. There is nothing you can do to stop them. If you try they can have you put in jail. Pretty much forever. And without a trial.

A similar behind-the-scenes coup has taken place in most nations of the world and so most now also have a central bank. Nations of the world that held out against this evil practice of central banking have been warred upon by the US. Systematically every single one. Each has been declared to be "evil" for one reason or another and each has been attacked. Their governments have been replaced by other governments that are often just as evil (or worse) than the previous government but the difference has been that the replacement government has been willing to have a central bank in place. On the other side of the coin there are some REALLY evil sonofabitches in power around the world but, as they DO have a central bank, they are left to do as they please.

The world is the play thing of a very small handful of very powerful and insanely wealthy individuals. And there is no legal recourse against them and not legal way you can refuse their control over pretty much every aspect of your life, from the food that you eat, to what goes in your water, to the things you are allowed to do and the places you are allowed to go. If they want it controlled, it will be. You can now legally be abused in any number of ways. Saying "no" is illegal and can result in your imprisonment.

Should this NOT make people angry?

Now how about you address these issues. These are the KINDS of issues that OWSers are angry about. This is the kind of thing that gets peoples blood boiling to the point that they want to go and destroy the monster that is the financial/political system. If the system is THAT sick then it needs to be put down like a rabid dog.

So how about you address these issues instead of telling me that OWSers are simply envious and greedy. That they are simply tools for this-or-that socialist entity (or whatever other Macarthyesque code-word for "evil" you want to label them with) .

Talk to me about the REASONS people are so damn angry that they are willing to be out in the cold all day and all night, that they are willing to expose themselves to violently abusive arrest, to being attacked with tear gas etc etc.

Talk to THOSE issues and we might just have a discussion here.

But more specious and baseless speculation about who is running this thing and what the motivations and mindsets of those on the street might be... that becomes stale.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6939520


Too bad that so few here will take time to read and ponder such posts as this.
The_Viceroy

User ID: 6170577
United States
12/12/2011 09:53 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
Revolutionaries are revolutionary.

Is that what you are saying, Viceroy?

I hope so. Because at least that makes sense.

The rest of what you are saying is an attempt at guilt by association. Like "Hitler loved dogs, Freddie loves dogs, therefore Freddie must be a Nazi".

Many have tried and are continuing to try to politically own OWS. There is neither proof nor even evidence that anyone is leading it. In fact, quite to the contrary, any attempts to claim political leadership are constantly rebuffed. OWS is what it is: an angry uprising of people who would like to bring profound change to a system that is sick.

You seem determined to believe otherwise irrespective of any evidence. That's your right but it does make a debate rather moot.

Now, Viceroy, how about you actually address, just once, just a little bit, some of these contentions that I have made:

1. The world economy is busy destroying itself IRRESPECTIVE of OWS. That it has been in deep trouble for a while now and the only way it is staying alive at the moment is by cannibalizing itself. Central banks are printing money to pay the debts of the banks. Joe Public is both directly and indirectly funding private banking institutions with taxes and with the invisible tax called inflation. And it doesn't help that he is. Still the whole thing is going down the toilet. Jobs are disappearing and salaries are shrinking while bankers get a free pass and get obscene salaries and bonuses. When their businesses are actually failing but for these bailouts. Should this NOT make people angry? That jobs are impossible to find and when you DO find a job the salary is almost insulting and taxes and inflation are crippling and for all that money is taken from them and given to the very businesses that caused the mess in the first place. And there is nothing they can do about it. Should people NOT be angry about this? Should they conveniently and patiently stay how and wait for the masters to give them a better deal?

2. Tell me that the system as it stands does not require constant growth. Which means constant consumption. Tell me it is not so that planet has limited resources. Because constant growth on a limited resource is a mathematically guaranteed disaster. No matter who does or says what. That simple fact guarantees the system will fail. It must. And it is. OWS or no OWS. Tell me I am wrong.

The way the system deals with this fact (and pretty much every other self-created disaster) is to try to kick the can down the road. In practice this means that the current financial system promotes and rewards destructive and abusive practices. Destructive of the planet and destructive of human beings. Tell me that this is not so. Tell me that people should not get angry when they see massive corporations behaving in a way that can only be described as evil... and getting away with it because they have clout and power. Because the politicians dance when they pull the strings. And when ordinary people cry foul those ordinary people are treated as if THEY were the criminals. Tell e that people should NOT get angry about this.

3. Finally, the central bank issue: The US was founded without a central bank and central banking was held to be anathema in the US's early years. Central banking was then foisted upon the US with clever financial and political shenanigans. Since then the US has become a tool of the central bankers. The US central bank does not belong to the US nor to US citizens and it is not under the control of the US government. Quite the opposite. The US is owned by these central bankers! They own all sides of the political divide to the extent that politics is just a game show and the central bankers are always the winners. They also, directly or indirectly, own the media and so own the debate and discussion that happens in the nation. The own the military-industrial complex. War is good for them. So war is constantly made. If they want to push up profits another war will be manufactured somewhere in the world and you and your family can be forcibly drafted, put into a uniform and sent off to kill and be killed. Because they say so. And you cannot vote them out. There is nothing you can do to stop them. If you try they can have you put in jail. Pretty much forever. And without a trial.

A similar behind-the-scenes coup has taken place in most nations of the world and so most now also have a central bank. Nations of the world that held out against this evil practice of central banking have been warred upon by the US. Systematically every single one. Each has been declared to be "evil" for one reason or another and each has been attacked. Their governments have been replaced by other governments that are often just as evil (or worse) than the previous government but the difference has been that the replacement government has been willing to have a central bank in place. On the other side of the coin there are some REALLY evil sonofabitches in power around the world but, as they DO have a central bank, they are left to do as they please.

The world is the play thing of a very small handful of very powerful and insanely wealthy individuals. And there is no legal recourse against them and not legal way you can refuse their control over pretty much every aspect of your life, from the food that you eat, to what goes in your water, to the things you are allowed to do and the places you are allowed to go. If they want it controlled, it will be. You can now legally be abused in any number of ways. Saying "no" is illegal and can result in your imprisonment.

Should this NOT make people angry?

Now how about you address these issues. These are the KINDS of issues that OWSers are angry about. This is the kind of thing that gets peoples blood boiling to the point that they want to go and destroy the monster that is the financial/political system. If the system is THAT sick then it needs to be put down like a rabid dog.

So how about you address these issues instead of telling me that OWSers are simply envious and greedy. That they are simply tools for this-or-that socialist entity (or whatever other Macarthyesque code-word for "evil" you want to label them with) .

Talk to me about the REASONS people are so damn angry that they are willing to be out in the cold all day and all night, that they are willing to expose themselves to violently abusive arrest, to being attacked with tear gas etc etc.

Talk to THOSE issues and we might just have a discussion here.

But more specious and baseless speculation about who is running this thing and what the motivations and mindsets of those on the street might be... that becomes stale.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6939520


So you cite some legitimate issues here and yes people are rightfully angry but you shut down the system and what then? What comes tomorrow and the next day and the next. no one knows. No one has proposed anything. No one is out saying, "Hey. We have a better way and this is it". No. Its just shut down and then everyone is left to fend for themselves.

Besides, most of the people getting arrested are college age in their early 20's. WTF do they have to be so angry about? They've probably paid attention to the world for all of 5 years and we are all supposed to believe that they've experienced all of this intolerable suffering? These college pukes are telling us who have been out in the workforce 20, 30, 40 years how freaking bad they have it? Sorry! It doesn't wash.

And to absolve politicians of any culpability as the source of the problem is ridiculous. TPTB are behind the scenes misdirecting the OWSer's anger away from the whore politicians. Do you know why? Because when the time is right these same whore politicians are going to swoop in and say "Just give us more power and we will solve your problems for you".

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/12/2011 09:53 PM
The_Viceroy

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12/12/2011 10:12 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
For any of you that still don't believe that OWS is being directed from the same bunch of 60's radials that formed SDS and the Weather Underground, this is from the Movement for a Democratic Society last month:

"Occupy the Media is a next step from Wall Street! Breaking the stranglehold of corporate media is essential to achieving democracy. To press the “transition,” allowing the people’s voices to be heard, we urge movement activists to spread the demand that all television and radio stations, broadcast and cable, allocate a substantial prime time schedule for uncensored, and live broadcast of open town meetings, forums and teach-ins (like 3 hours a day.)"
[link to movementforademocraticsociety.org]

Who are key players in MDS? Former SDS and Weather Underground members Bruce Rubenstein, Jeff Jones and Bill Ayers. And here's a name you might recognize, Rashid Khalidi. Remember, he's the one that got Obama into Columbia U.

Anyway, what did MDS call for back in November? An "Occupy the Media" campaign. What just kicked off today? An "Occupy the media" campaign. The same "Occupy the media" campaign that MDS has been planning for months. So its a little bit more than "guilt by association". These puppet masters are pulling the strings and have been all along. If you want to know where OWS is going and where MDS is leading OWS next, just visit their website and its all laid out.

OWSers, your anger is warranted but misplaced and you are allowing yourselves to be manipulated by some very evil people. What you are being led to believe is spontaneous is not. It is the result of decades of planning. If you want real, positive change, get on the side of good, not evil. The people pushing you are pure evil and they do not have your best interest in mind.

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/12/2011 10:18 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/12/2011 10:22 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

Thomas Jefferson

 Quoting: AlphA Canis Majoris


Most people on this forum are sensible enough to realize the only people anti-OWS are those programmed by their right-wing/corporatist news sources.

As most can see, the vast majority on here, even though they are not as vocal as the retards, are still awake.
Anonymous Coward
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For any of you that still don't believe that OWS is being directed from the same bunch of 60's radials that formed SDS and the Weather Underground, this is from the Movement for a Democratic Society last month:

"Occupy the Media is a next step from Wall Street! Breaking the stranglehold of corporate media is essential to achieving democracy. To press the “transition,” allowing the people’s voices to be heard, we urge movement activists to spread the demand that all television and radio stations, broadcast and cable, allocate a substantial prime time schedule for uncensored, and live broadcast of open town meetings, forums and teach-ins (like 3 hours a day.)"
[link to movementforademocraticsociety.org]

Who are key players in MDS? Former SDS and Weather Underground members Bruce Rubenstein, Jeff Jones and Bill Ayers. And here's a name you might recognize, Rashid Khalidi. Remember, he's the one that got Obama into Columbia U.

Anyway, what did MDS call for back in November? An "Occupy the Media" campaign. What just kicked off today? An "Occupy the media" campaign. The same "Occupy the media" campaign that MDS has been planning for months. So its a little bit more than "guilt by association". These puppet masters are pulling the strings and have been all along. If you want to know where OWS is going and where MDS is leading OWS next, just visit their website and its all laid out.

OWSers, your anger is warranted but misplaced and you are allowing yourselves to be manipulated by some very evil people. What you are being led to believe is spontaneous is not. It is the result of decades of planning. If you want real, positive change, get on the side of good, not evil. The people pushing you are pure evil and they do not have your best interest in mind.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy




Uhh...the 1960's had some of the most important and beneficial movements the modern world has ever seen.

Hopefully they find some inspiration in the previously deadened generations.

"Very Evil People"

OH NOES.....NOT THE ANTI-VIETNAM WAR GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111
Anonymous Coward
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12/12/2011 10:40 PM
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63.5% and climbing

suck on that, you guberment shills
The_Viceroy

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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
For any of you that still don't believe that OWS is being directed from the same bunch of 60's radials that formed SDS and the Weather Underground, this is from the Movement for a Democratic Society last month:

"Occupy the Media is a next step from Wall Street! Breaking the stranglehold of corporate media is essential to achieving democracy. To press the “transition,” allowing the people’s voices to be heard, we urge movement activists to spread the demand that all television and radio stations, broadcast and cable, allocate a substantial prime time schedule for uncensored, and live broadcast of open town meetings, forums and teach-ins (like 3 hours a day.)"
[link to movementforademocraticsociety.org]

Who are key players in MDS? Former SDS and Weather Underground members Bruce Rubenstein, Jeff Jones and Bill Ayers. And here's a name you might recognize, Rashid Khalidi. Remember, he's the one that got Obama into Columbia U.

Anyway, what did MDS call for back in November? An "Occupy the Media" campaign. What just kicked off today? An "Occupy the media" campaign. The same "Occupy the media" campaign that MDS has been planning for months. So its a little bit more than "guilt by association". These puppet masters are pulling the strings and have been all along. If you want to know where OWS is going and where MDS is leading OWS next, just visit their website and its all laid out.

OWSers, your anger is warranted but misplaced and you are allowing yourselves to be manipulated by some very evil people. What you are being led to believe is spontaneous is not. It is the result of decades of planning. If you want real, positive change, get on the side of good, not evil. The people pushing you are pure evil and they do not have your best interest in mind.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy




Uhh...the 1960's had some of the most important and beneficial movements the modern world has ever seen.

Hopefully they find some inspiration in the previously deadened generations.

"Very Evil People"

OH NOES.....NOT THE ANTI-VIETNAM WAR GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6979548


I used the term "dangerously naive" for a reason and you last 3 posters are perfect examples of why that phrase is so applicable. These were not "anti-Viet Nam War guys". They simply used anger over the VN War to foment their anti-government, anti-capitalist movement. The war at the time was just a vehicle of convenience for them. They took an already angry mob, peeled off a percentage of them and then redirected their anger towards their anti-US, anti-capitalist rhetoric. They are doing the exact same thing now. They are fomenting these OWS protests and then they will peel off the percentage that is willing to take it a step further and they will again use these people for their anti-US, anti-capitalist purposes. The current anger at Wall St is just the vehicle they will use to do so, just like the VN War was in the 60's.

I've studied these people for years and I was around in the 60's to see all of this same stuff going on. For the younger generation, this is all new and exciting because they think they are creating a generational identity for themselves. The truth is that TPTB behind this represent a very old order who have spent the past couple decades working within our government, in our universities and in our media towards exactly what we are seeing now in OWS. Their goal is to destroy western capitalism and replace it with what Ayers described as a "dictatorship of the proletariat", (Marxism), and they will use any idealistic mob they can find to exploit to accomplish their goal. If you want to be mad, be mad. If you want to protest, protest. But at least flick on the lights, take a look at who you are in bed with, and be honest about it.

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/13/2011 08:05 AM
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For those of you that say that OWS doesnt want to collapse the system (and tell the Anti OWSers to wake up), why are they protesting and trying to close the ports?
The_Viceroy

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For those of you that say that OWS doesnt want to collapse the system (and tell the Anti OWSers to wake up), why are they protesting and trying to close the ports?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7065153


They won't answer that because they don't have an answer. And who is being hurt by closing the ports, the people who work there, the longshoremen, the truckers, the service workers. Are they hurting the elites? Not one bit. The elites are laughing at them.

Here is a poll just released:

Americans’ fear of big government - partly fueled by a sharp spike among Democrats since President Barack Obama took office - almost reached a record high this year and is far greater than people’s concerns about big business and big labor, a new Gallup poll Monday shows.An overwhelming 64 percent of people surveyed said big government was the biggest threat to the country, compared to just 26 percent who said big business is their gravest concern and 8 percent who picked big labor.
Read more: [link to www.politico.com]


What does this tell you? It tells you that OWS isn't working, its having just the opposite effect. The people have figured out OWS's end game, empowering government to "level they playing field" and "impose fairness" onto society, fairness as progressive bureaucrats define it. That's scaring the shit out of people and they don't want it. This is why OWS refuses to reveal their "solution" to the problems they keep complaining about, because they know the vast majority of the American people would reject their solution if they knew what it was. I know what it is. bill Ayers told us what it is, a DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAT! NAKED MARXISM!

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/13/2011 06:29 PM
Anonymous Coward
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Viceroy you seem to be conceding that OWSer motivations are right but your contention is that this motivation is being directed and managed by unsavoury characters.

Is this possible? I have seen enough of life to know that anything is possible. But before I spend time exploring this and doing research for myself and making up my mind whether your contentions are anything more than theories... I'd like to hear from you. IF this is the case, then what, from your perspective, should an OWSer do? Stop occupying? And then what?

You said:
If you want real, positive change, get on the side of good, not evil.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


What exactly is, from your perspective, "the side of good" and what is the side of good doing to bring this real, positive change you talk about? I ask this question because some of what you say leads me to believe it is not the usual right/left paradigm bulldust or just another political leader who is directly going to lead the opposition to dance the way The Man wants them to dance.

So I'd love to hear from you: If not to occupy... then what?
The_Viceroy

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Viceroy you seem to be conceding that OWSer motivations are right but your contention is that this motivation is being directed and managed by unsavoury characters.

Is this possible? I have seen enough of life to know that anything is possible. But before I spend time exploring this and doing research for myself and making up my mind whether your contentions are anything more than theories... I'd like to hear from you. IF this is the case, then what, from your perspective, should an OWSer do? Stop occupying? And then what?

You said:
If you want real, positive change, get on the side of good, not evil.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


What exactly is, from your perspective, "the side of good" and what is the side of good doing to bring this real, positive change you talk about? I ask this question because some of what you say leads me to believe it is not the usual right/left paradigm bulldust or just another political leader who is directly going to lead the opposition to dance the way The Man wants them to dance.

So I'd love to hear from you: If not to occupy... then what?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7105890


Yes! You nailed it. Motivations, for most of OWS are righteous. Anger, largely justifiable. Everyone is mad as hell. Hundreds of thousands of Tea Party protesters were mad as hell last year too. The same sense that something is disastrously wrong, that corruption rules the day and that our elected leaders are bought and paid for whores that don't listen to us. But the step after that point of anger the TP and OWS diverge. We ALL identify the problems. Its where we go from there that can either lead to true progress towards addressing them or towards catastrophe.

I see it this way. The TP focused their argument on solution, solution, solution? What was their solution to the problems we ALL see? They laid out a clear plan, a return to the founding principles of self governance, constriction of government overbearance, an end to cronyism and letting states and local communities address their own local issues. You can agree or disagree with their solution but the bottom line was they laid out a clear plan of what they want and how to get there because the document that they have based their solution on, the US Constitution, is already exists and held in regard by all. So in their plan, there is no collapse and no mystery about what comes next.

Contrarily, OWS focuses their argument on problem, problem, problem. We all identify with many of the problems they identify but what is their solution? Nobody seems to have one, yet they are out attempting to shut down our entire economic system with no coherent strategy to deal with the aftermath, certainly none that is going to improve life for the average person. How does shutting down the economy benefit the poor or the middle class? The degree of suffering will be inversely proportional to a person's means. Those on the lowest rungs will be totally at the mercy of whatever entity has what they need. What good could come of that?

What I am trying to get through to people is that the lack of solution is by design. When the system goes down it becomes too late for deliberative planning and strategy because everything will be ad hoc reaction to catastrophe after catastrophe. But there are those behind the scenes that DO have a ready made solution that they will be more than happy to roll out when the time is right and people are hungry and no longer have a choice. They are actually banking on the idea that people will be in need, the needier, the better. If you have read their words and listened to them speak over the past several decades, as I have, they too have a manifesto and what they are proposing is pure evil. Its certainly not going to elevate the average citizen or enhance anyone's freedom, rights and liberties. What is the purposeful and deliberate perpetration of upheaval and suffering onto an entire society if not wantonly sadistic?

So if the OWSers want to fall in line with this, that is their right but they should at least be interested in asking the question, "What happens next? What happens if we succeed?" Right now, I get the feeling that they are too caught up in the moment to care and that is extremely dangerous for everyone. We know the TP version of getting from Point A to Point B. Its time someone explained (honestly) the OWS version and then let the people make their choice. I'm trying to at least point people in that direction.

So its really not a question of "Occupy OR then what?". Its a question of "Occupy AND then what?" That needs to be answered. Before shutting down Wall St, the NYSE, the banks and ports and preventing people from shopping, it needs to be answered.

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/15/2011 05:42 PM
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For those of you that say that OWS doesnt want to collapse the system (and tell the Anti OWSers to wake up), why are they protesting and trying to close the ports?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7065153
Anonymous Coward
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For those of you that say that OWS doesnt want to collapse the system (and tell the Anti OWSers to wake up), why are they protesting and trying to close the ports?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7065153

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7239509


Anybody?
Anonymous Coward
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36% against occupy wall street on this website....



LOL



wow...so many sheep,


lol



good thing this game is no longer up to you:)
Anonymous Coward
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Tell me exactly what OWS stands for and I might support it. I support their anti-bank bailout position, but the rest of their platform seems anti-business and downright communist & socialist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5073959


they are about ending corporate personhood and getting money out of politics
The_Viceroy

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Tell me exactly what OWS stands for and I might support it. I support their anti-bank bailout position, but the rest of their platform seems anti-business and downright communist & socialist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5073959


they are about ending corporate personhood and getting money out of politics
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3053613


Does that include collective bargaining? Think long and hard.
Anonymous Coward
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ANYBODY WHO IS AGAINST OWS IS A ZIONIST FOR SURE
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For those of you that say that OWS doesnt want to collapse the system (and tell the Anti OWSers to wake up), why are they protesting and trying to close the ports?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7065153

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7239509


Anybody?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7267240


ANYBODY WHO IS AGAINST OWS IS A ZIONIST FOR SURE
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5927238


Maybe you can answer the question?
Green Grinch
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There is obviously no particular issue the OWS protests are about. They are a general protest, an attempt to exercise the right to assemble and to protest. It has been shown that largely this right is being oppressed wrongfully by the establishment.

No true American or sovereign citizen of the world should be against these protests because no matter what the involves participants look like, no matter what their creed, they are demonstrating their right as sovereign citizens to assemble, protest, and petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Those here and elsewhere that take joy in the violence perpetrated against citizens exercising their rights do not stand for liberty, but for corruption, oppression and death.
Anonymous Coward
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Yes! You nailed it. Motivations, for most of OWS are righteous. Anger, largely justifiable. Everyone is mad as hell. Hundreds of thousands of Tea Party protesters were mad as hell last year too. The same sense that something is disastrously wrong, that corruption rules the day and that our elected leaders are bought and paid for whores that don't listen to us. But the step after that point of anger the TP and OWS diverge.

...

 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Viceroy I thank you for your answer. Before I proceed I want to be sure I have really understood you. I asked "what is the side of good". You seem to be answering that from your perspective this is the Tea Party. Is this right? If you could wave a magic wand you would have all OWSers disband the occupy movement and join the Tea Party movement instead?

I just want to be sure I have got this right before I proceed.

Thank you again for engaging with me.
Anonymous Coward
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Yes! You nailed it. Motivations, for most of OWS are righteous. Anger, largely justifiable. Everyone is mad as hell. Hundreds of thousands of Tea Party protesters were mad as hell last year too. The same sense that something is disastrously wrong, that corruption rules the day and that our elected leaders are bought and paid for whores that don't listen to us. But the step after that point of anger the TP and OWS diverge.

...

 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Viceroy I thank you for your answer. Before I proceed I want to be sure I have really understood you. I asked "what is the side of good". You seem to be answering that from your perspective this is the Tea Party. Is this right? If you could wave a magic wand you would have all OWSers disband the occupy movement and join the Tea Party movement instead?

I just want to be sure I have got this right before I proceed.

Thank you again for engaging with me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7314496

You seem like an intelligent person. Can you answer the above question about closing the ports that everybody is avoiding like the plague.
The_Viceroy

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Yes! You nailed it. Motivations, for most of OWS are righteous. Anger, largely justifiable. Everyone is mad as hell. Hundreds of thousands of Tea Party protesters were mad as hell last year too. The same sense that something is disastrously wrong, that corruption rules the day and that our elected leaders are bought and paid for whores that don't listen to us. But the step after that point of anger the TP and OWS diverge.

...

 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Viceroy I thank you for your answer. Before I proceed I want to be sure I have really understood you. I asked "what is the side of good". You seem to be answering that from your perspective this is the Tea Party. Is this right? If you could wave a magic wand you would have all OWSers disband the occupy movement and join the Tea Party movement instead?

I just want to be sure I have got this right before I proceed.

Thank you again for engaging with me.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7314496


You will need to decide which approach is on the side of "good" for yourself, as the answer may be different for everyone. You can compare video from the two competing movements and decide for yourself which is motivated by man's virtues and which by man's vices. That answer is pretty clear to me. The "good" or "evil" of either will be found in the solutions that are proposed to address common grievances.

If I could wave a magic wand I would wish to separate those in OWS who are interested in serious dialogue from those who are simply exploiting the opportunity to behave with abandon and live out some kind of pop culture fantasy. That does not necessarily mean that they would "join" the TP but I do believe there is plenty of common ground between honest brokers in both movements. As I said, just because one group or the other doesn't agree with the solutions does not mean that they do not acknowledge the problems. However, honest debate cannot take place with people who refuse to be honest about their motivations.

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/18/2011 10:24 AM
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You seem like an intelligent person. Can you answer the above question about closing the ports that everybody is avoiding like the plague.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward


Thank you for the compliment. I am glad I SEEM that way. LOL

I can't... because I don't speak for the occupy movement. I make it practice never to speak for anybody other than myself.

I don't belong to occupy or any other movement. But I do have some sympathy for their frustrations.

So I can't answer your question. I can take a guess and I can make suggestions though. Here are some thoughts:

Maybe the people that have screwed this world up to the point that Joe Average is really angry are invulnerable. They are untouchable and cannot be hurt. You can't vote them out. If you change politicians it means nothing because every single politician on the ballot is bought, paid for and owned. The ones that won't sell out don't make it to the final selection list. So what do you do? Well here is a thought: these scum-suckers are only able to manipulate the world as long as they have oceans of money flowing though their hands. You can't bribe people to do things that are distasteful to them if you don't have money and lots of it. So what would happen if we pinched the money-artery. What would happen if we showed them that we can negatively affect the flow of lucre that they rely on? Would they get a fright? Would they pay attention?

That's one thought.

Here's another: do you know what money is? Really do you know? Do you know how money is created and who actually OWNS the money supply? If you don't, may I humbly recommend that you watch either Zeitgeist or Thrive. Or better yet, watch both. They are both available to watch online. This should give you a basic insight. The point is that money ITSELF is a tool that makes you and me poorer and a very, very small group of impossibly wealthy people ever richer. They own and control everything because they, literally, own the money.

You think your "government" is running the show? Wrong. The government dances the way these very powerful individuals say they must.

My friend, Viceroy, wants us to take a step back and to try to fix some of the things that we think are broken. What if the things that are broken are the very deepest essential constituents of the system. As an analogy: what if an animal's heart, liver and lungs were damaged beyond repair and someone was talking about putting a band-aid on it? You know? At some point the kindest thing is to put the animal down. So what if the system is so deeply rotten that there actually is nothing for it but to kill it as quickly and as mercifully as possible?

Then does it make sense?

Maybe OWS DOES want to destroy the existing system. And maybe from a certain perspective that is not a bad thing.

You DO know, don't you that the US was founded as a rebellion against a certain mindset: the "royalty" mindset that there are certain people who, by birthright have the right to "own" the means of production. Right? And that the introduction (by cowards, tricksters and traitors) of the "central banking" concept (called The Federal Reserve) was a very clever and very evil way for the royals of old to regain control. You know this, right? You know that your country is no longer the land of the free, right? It is the land of the bought-and-paid-for. And you might still be the home of the brave but your bravery is being used as a tool for the abuse of the rest of the world. Not in your best interests but in the best interests of those evil old families.

You cannot vote them out. They OWN the whole system.

Let me be clear: if they want YOU to go to war to kill THEIR enemies YOU will do so. YOU, personally, will kill or be killed at their behest if they wish this. If you resist you can be put in jail forever with no trial. That is the power they have. And there is nothing legal or political you can do about it. And this is just by way of illustration of their power. They do whatever they want with America as their plaything. They love the way they kick the USA around as a toy because of the way your proud nation was formed in rebellion of them. They hate you and so they use you as their tool. And so you, personally, can be made to do what they want either though manipulation and control (they own the media, they own the corporations, they own the politicians they own... everything) or you will do it because you are scared of the consequences of not doing what you are told. If you are very brave or very stupid you might resist in which case you can be removed from society and silenced. This they can do this to you right now. And there is nothing you can do to stop them.

Angry yet?

In the old days people got their pitchforks and went to the castle and tarred and feather the king and then chased him out of the country for a great deal less. Now we can't. The "king" is invisible as he is hiding behind expendable puppets.

It might well be that the only thing left for us to do is to cut off "the king's" means of control. It might be the best and kindest thing we can do is to crash the whole sick, rotten system.

And so maybe OWS DOES want to destroy the system.

Now please: I am NOT and OWSer. Again: I DO NOT speak for them. Take a look at the flag. I am in South Africa and there is no occupy movement within a thousand miles of where I live. So I am not in any way representative of them. So I offer you these thought simply as one human being's perspective. Do with it as you will. Ask me more questions if you like. But don't read into this anything more than what it is.

If you want to know why OWS is doing what it is... go to any occupation and talk to them... and ask them for yourself. Find out for yourself if these people are "the enemy" or if there is something new, different and righteous going on.

Whatever you do... follow your heart and be true to yourself.
The_Viceroy

User ID: 6170577
United States
12/19/2011 07:50 AM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
You seem like an intelligent person. Can you answer the above question about closing the ports that everybody is avoiding like the plague.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward


I don't belong to occupy or any other movement. But I do have some sympathy for their frustrations.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7334231


Sympathy for their frustrations is only half of the equation. That's why the poll in this thread is skewed. As result of the phrasing of the question, we get a positive response from everyone who is frustrated with the current state of affairs. If the poll was: "Are you in favor of a complete economic collapse without any plan in place to deal with the aftermath", we'd likely get a much different response, at least by those who have thought the consequences through. Siding with OWS simply because they identify problems that we may agree with is a fool's errand unless we first know and understand their proposed solutions. A similar scenario was played out in 1930's Germany, for example. The solution came later.

Last Edited by The_Viceroy on 12/19/2011 07:52 AM
Anonymous Coward
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South Africa
12/20/2011 02:27 PM
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Re: Are you Anti-OWS or Pro-OWS?
Viceroy, I think you misunderstand, my friend.

I don't join any movements at all. My position is this: if there is something in my world that makes me unhappy I ask myself "what about myself do I need to change?" I don't talk about this here on GLP because no one here would believe me but it is absolutely 100% true for me: we each create our reality with what is going on inside of us. I am NOT presenting this as an item of debate here. I couldn't care less about convincing anyone else of this. The only reason I tell you this is to explain why I do not join movements. I don't believe in trying to change the exterior world. It doesn't work. So I don't join movements that are about that.

But that does not stop me from viewing what is going on around me and feeling great compassion. I "feel with" people who see their world going to hell in a handbasket. I feel with them that they are angry and confused. I feel with them that the people that are supposed to be their political leaders are actually whores in the service of psychopathic illuminati power-mongers. I feel with them. And I see how they respond. From where I sit I see something very different from what you are obviously seeing. I see people who are rising above their anger and frustration and choosing not to go directly to violence. I see a great deal of peaceful restraint in the face of very provocative and abusive police action. I applaud that. I think that, for so long as people are trying to use a movement to change their world, peaceful demonstration is the only way to make the world better, not worse.

Now I see that the same KIND of thing was tried before with the Tea Party. But here's the thing. I see that the Tea Party failed precisely because the Tea Party allowed itself to be railroaded. It was one thing... and then big name politicians walked in... and then it was something else. These sleaze bags just slapped their names on it and called it theirs. And then it was. From my perspective that was instant death for the Tea Party. TPTB are past-masters at "leading the opposition". What this means is: they are doing their usual evil stuff. You organise a movement to stop them. They place their guy in your movement and arrange lots of support and assistance for him. He rises to the top of your movement. Your movement is now their tool. They use it to their own best interests. But they didn't even need to TRY that with the Tea Party. They just walked in and claimed it. I mean Sarah freakin Palin, for crying out loud!

It started out so strong. Then is was directly co-opted and had its soul ripped right out. Now it is just another political toy in the game. It lost its relevance.

OWS?

Well two things:
1. They do not have leaders and they do not permit co-opting at all. They are simply they will of those that are there at the time.
2. Viceroy, you argue vociferously that, indeed, they are being lead from very far behind the scenes by a possible list of suspected boogy men. Maybe. But I see no proof of this. And the fact that this movement is being so very viciously put down by the authorities whilst being derided as meaningless by the press... well this is ironically some of the best PR this movement could have. TPTB ARE the enemy of humanity. If they hate OWS so badly... then OWS must be doing it right. :-)

Finally, Viceroy. Your comparison to 1930's Germany? Seriously? You want to compare a movement that has no obvious leader to a political party that was essentially an ego-cult? Can we find two LESS comparable things?
Nazism = Fascism. The way the current system is proceeding in the USA is directly to fascism. Unbridled corporate power with dictatorial powers placed in the hands of a single man or an oligarchy. Sounds like what Ohbummer and his crew are up to. OWS say they are against this. They are on the streets putting their lives on the line to fight this.

So, yeah, I feel with THOSE guys. I am not there and I am making different choices in my life. But there is more than a little part of me rooting for them.

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