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Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?

 
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 03:23 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Alright, I've given this thread a read now.

OP, get your head out of all the fiction!
We live in the real world, basing your outlook on the world on what you've experienced in fiction is a very immature way of looking at things.

Moving on from that though, I dislike your question as your painting collectivism as if it is a globalist idea, one world government, one nation sort of thing, it's not.

For example, I'm a collectivist and I oppose globalism severely, I believe collectivism should be used to enforce national and cultural identity, as in, collectivism within one nation, not the entire globe.
 Quoting: Stocking Eats Cake


The problem with collectivists, of all kinds, is their love and devotion to the word 'enforce' - which means: to use force.

The use of force, unless used to protect your life and or property, is always immoral; always.

I am sure collectivist would respond: we're doing it for your own good.... just like a child abuser or spouse beater rationalizes.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 108458


I think Hitler had the idea of "enforcing" national identity collectivism too, as did Stalin, Mussolini, etc.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


This is why I used the USA as the example for collectivism as they display pretty much the same nationalistic traits as Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and Mussolini's Italy. Shifting the fanatical devotional power of religion onto the state itself. And look how that's turning out for individuals.

Its often been said that what Stalin did was good for Russia, but not so good for Russians.

Last Edited by Reiz on 12/08/2011 03:24 PM
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 03:25 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
I think some miss the point that a collective is still made up of individuals, you can't have just one or the other and it would be irrational to try. Hence the only logical solution is to use aspects of both.
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
The_Viceroy

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12/08/2011 03:39 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Alright, I've given this thread a read now.

OP, get your head out of all the fiction!
We live in the real world, basing your outlook on the world on what you've experienced in fiction is a very immature way of looking at things.

Moving on from that though, I dislike your question as your painting collectivism as if it is a globalist idea, one world government, one nation sort of thing, it's not.

For example, I'm a collectivist and I oppose globalism severely, I believe collectivism should be used to enforce national and cultural identity, as in, collectivism within one nation, not the entire globe.
 Quoting: Stocking Eats Cake


The problem with collectivists, of all kinds, is their love and devotion to the word 'enforce' - which means: to use force.

The use of force, unless used to protect your life and or property, is always immoral; always.

I am sure collectivist would respond: we're doing it for your own good.... just like a child abuser or spouse beater rationalizes.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 108458


I think Hitler had the idea of "enforcing" national identity collectivism too, as did Stalin, Mussolini, etc.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


This is why I used the USA as the example for collectivism as they display pretty much the same nationalistic traits as Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and Mussolini's Italy. Shifting the fanatical devotional power of religion onto the state itself. And look how that's turning out for individuals.

Its often been said that what Stalin did was good for Russia, but not so good for Russians.
 Quoting: Reiz


The sentence I bolded applies pretty accurately to the American left but not Americans overall, not even the majority of Americans. The left is a very vocal minority but does not accurately represent the sentiments of the mainstream.

I've spend alot of time in Canada in my day, one side of my family is from Picton, ON.
The_Viceroy

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12/08/2011 03:43 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
I think some miss the point that a collective is still made up of individuals, you can't have just one or the other and it would be irrational to try. Hence the only logical solution is to use aspects of both.
 Quoting: Reiz


Society does generally operate with a combination of both. It is when respect for the sovereign liberty of the individual is forsaken that that the liberty of all is then in jeopardy. There are many examples of that.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2011 03:58 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
The Individual with God is the way to go.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 04:02 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
The sentence I bolded applies pretty accurately to the American left but not Americans overall, not even the majority of Americans. The left is a very vocal minority but does not accurately represent the sentiments of the mainstream.

I've spend alot of time in Canada in my day, one side of my family is from Picton, ON.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Hmmm... whereas I thought I was being general enough to avoid that. it seems to me that American culture is incredibly focused on America and only America. heh, like Seth Rogan was told when he originally wanted to base Pinapple Express somewhere in Canada, "No American wants to watch a movie based in Canada" and so had to change the character. Most other groups are seen as "lesser" at the very least. As well as a seemingly fanatical respect for the military. Then again I guess Canada has a similar thing for the military but nowhere near the degree it is for the States. We don't have fly bys at football or hockey games or anything like that. Nor do Canadian ads to join the military make it out to be all fun and adventure and frankly, a video game. Yeah I've seen your Navy commercials, its kinda scary.

Sure maybe the devotion isn't to the government but the stereotype of the political right in America is that same fascist style uber patriotism. And because of that I figured I could generalize to encompass most of the spectrum of Americans
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
Anonymous Coward
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12/08/2011 04:15 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Collectivism only works when 2+2=4 for everybody and they know 2+2=4.

Most people are intellectually-dishonest, morally-bankrupt idiot monkeys who never got past their primitive instincts.

They are finished.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 04:15 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
To be honest I'd say the way the American military is portrayed in America via everything from video games, those commercials, movies, etc is actually very disrespectful to what a military was originally intended to be. Not just disrespectful to the people in the American military, but disrespectful to the whole concept of military as a whole. That it is all about shooting and killing, no mercy for the enemy, no moral restraints, you are on the "good" side and everyone else is subhuman demons you need to eradicate. Again, a very, very collectivist way to portray it.

Although I was pretty annoyed one remembrane day when they made a Vimy Ridge commercial look like a Call of Duty game. I'm at least mature enough to recognize that it is not a game nor is it fun, but it was the less mature people I was worried about. How would that impact their view on war?

But that is getting a little off topic now, sorry.
Warning, spirits, aliens, and humans are prophetically impaired:

Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
The_Viceroy

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12/08/2011 04:15 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
The sentence I bolded applies pretty accurately to the American left but not Americans overall, not even the majority of Americans. The left is a very vocal minority but does not accurately represent the sentiments of the mainstream.

I've spend alot of time in Canada in my day, one side of my family is from Picton, ON.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Hmmm... whereas I thought I was being general enough to avoid that. it seems to me that American culture is incredibly focused on America and only America. heh, like Seth Rogan was told when he originally wanted to base Pinapple Express somewhere in Canada, "No American wants to watch a movie based in Canada" and so had to change the character. Most other groups are seen as "lesser" at the very least. As well as a seemingly fanatical respect for the military. Then again I guess Canada has a similar thing for the military but nowhere near the degree it is for the States. We don't have fly bys at football or hockey games or anything like that. Nor do Canadian ads to join the military make it out to be all fun and adventure and frankly, a video game. Yeah I've seen your Navy commercials, its kinda scary.

Sure maybe the devotion isn't to the government but the stereotype of the political right in America is that same fascist style uber patriotism. And because of that I figured I could generalize to encompass most of the spectrum of Americans
 Quoting: Reiz


Isn't that kind of generalization "collectivist" in itself? Do individual Americans you meet give you that impression?
Shingen

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12/08/2011 04:17 PM

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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
If you people want to join a collective; fine with me.

Just don't put a gun to my head and expect me to fund it and be a willing participant.
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based of five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, or county commissioners." - Edward Abbey

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." -Lysander Spooner

"If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skin into their clothing, and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order." - Firefly
s. d. butler

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12/08/2011 04:23 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
To be honest I'd say the way the American military is portrayed in America via everything from video games, those commercials, movies, etc is actually very disrespectful to what a military was originally intended to be. Not just disrespectful to the people in the American military, but disrespectful to the whole concept of military as a whole. That it is all about shooting and killing, no mercy for the enemy, no moral restraints, you are on the "good" side and everyone else is subhuman demons you need to eradicate. Again, a very, very collectivist way to portray it.

Although I was pretty annoyed one remembrane day when they made a Vimy Ridge commercial look like a Call of Duty game. I'm at least mature enough to recognize that it is not a game nor is it fun, but it was the less mature people I was worried about. How would that impact their view on war?

But that is getting a little off topic now, sorry.
 Quoting: Reiz


It is in the interests of the ruling class to glorify war.
It is in the interests of the ruling class for people to identify patriotism as unquestioning obedience, and criminalize dissent. The things you speak of are just some of the means to that end.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 04:28 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
The sentence I bolded applies pretty accurately to the American left but not Americans overall, not even the majority of Americans. The left is a very vocal minority but does not accurately represent the sentiments of the mainstream.

I've spend alot of time in Canada in my day, one side of my family is from Picton, ON.
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


Hmmm... whereas I thought I was being general enough to avoid that. it seems to me that American culture is incredibly focused on America and only America. heh, like Seth Rogan was told when he originally wanted to base Pinapple Express somewhere in Canada, "No American wants to watch a movie based in Canada" and so had to change the character. Most other groups are seen as "lesser" at the very least. As well as a seemingly fanatical respect for the military. Then again I guess Canada has a similar thing for the military but nowhere near the degree it is for the States. We don't have fly bys at football or hockey games or anything like that. Nor do Canadian ads to join the military make it out to be all fun and adventure and frankly, a video game. Yeah I've seen your Navy commercials, its kinda scary.

Sure maybe the devotion isn't to the government but the stereotype of the political right in America is that same fascist style uber patriotism. And because of that I figured I could generalize to encompass most of the spectrum of Americans
 Quoting: Reiz


Isn't that kind of generalization "collectivist" in itself? Do individual Americans you meet give you that impression?
 Quoting: The_Viceroy


actually yes, individual americans I've met have given me that impression. However this itself seems to be a spectrum because frankly it seems the more Canadian influence they've had (border states) the less arrogant, pissy, and demanding they are.

Its not hard to miss an american tourist, as they tend to compare everything with America, or complain that a non english speaking country does not speak english, or prefer to go to a Mcdonalds or A&W instead of tasting anything local. Again this is a spectrum thing and I've also met many Americans who are the exact opposite of that. Like one lady who moved here from North Carolina is one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. I don't know how long she's been here but its been more than enough to get citizenship and then some.

Either way I'm smart enough to recognize that not all Americans are like this, but as for many of those who I've met personally, yeah, they tend to be assholes.

And yes technically that generalization is collectivist in itself, but again I know not all Americans are like this and judge them more based on how they personally act rather than cultural stereotypes. Its just that a lot seem to be this way, thus its easier to make a generalization for the sake of speaking about it.

Last Edited by Reiz on 12/08/2011 04:30 PM
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
s. d. butler

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12/08/2011 04:28 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
This discussion was inspired by Ron Paul's explanation of the Globalist "Conspiracy"

Thread: Ron Paul Blasts the NWO conspiracy! what side are you on?

Oh my god I never thought I'd EVER find ANYONE else in the entire friggin world that actually understood that the move for a one world government does not actually have sinister intentions behind it from those trying to enact it.

Thank you Ron Paul for pointing out something that to me is fucking common sense. Its an ideological battle, nothing more.

That being said, I still look at this as being like the battle between the Assassin's and Templars in the Assassin's Creed games. One side believing humanity needs to be saved from itself and thus wants a society where free will doesn't exist and another side that believes that free will is necessary for any kind of real growth and future for humanity.

You can see this same theme playing out in other media like Gundam SEED Destiny and Gundam 00, the battle between the Borg and everyone else in Star Trek. Or even the Flood from Halo (and arguably the Forerunners too) and probably innumerable other stories that I can't think of right now. There is much truth in fiction, one of the first spirits I ever talked to has the best quote ever on that in my opinion.

"All stories have lessons for those willing to learn them."

In my opinion even thought the push towards globalism has the promise of stopping conflict and ensuring world peace, it does not unify humanity in any way shape or form. What it really does is standardize it. It weeds out the ideas and portions that are a threat to stability and cultivates one specific mindset only.

The problem is that it ignores the basic fundamental truth about life in that it is always changing. People, regardless of how much you try to condition it out of them, will always have unique viewpoints on everything. Even if the differences are small they are still there.

Because of this the NWO ideal for unity will always break down and become mere standardization. It also devolves into a totalitarian dictatorship as the controllers must always be vigilant in stamping out anything that threatens stability. You cannot stop questions about policies from existing a long as there are things about it to question. You can however stop the people themselves from bringing those questions to light by killing them or otherwise removing them from the population. Like quarantining a virus to keep it from spreading.

At the end of the day what other choice would the regime have? If it cannot logically justify its rule and its laws to the people it can only remove those smart enough to recognize this.

Its because of that inevitability that Globalism becomes evil. Change, the basis of life, must be forced to become static, the basis of death. The world as a result becomes living death and mere existence and nothing more.

I on the other hand believe that you can still have world peace and free will at the same time. All you need to do is understand other people and where they're coming from. Almost no one on this site ever seems to define terms they are using, they just seem to expect that others think like they do. Nor do they tend to explain why they feel a certain way about such-and-such topic, just barrel on stating that they are right without ever giving a reason for it.

And then when disputes break out the life experience ard is often played. "Oh you'd see things my way if you'd experienced what I have in my life!" Well guess what people, they haven't and can't live your life and have your experiences. That is a fact, even if someone was to be shown your entire life, feelings, emotions and all, after the fact they would still be interpreting it from their own non-you vantage point. Although it would probably give them a much better idea of your feelings on a subject.

So instead of just acting like you're right and everyone else is wrong because you're experienced something they haven't why don't you explain how it is that you came to the conclusions you've come to. And also, recognize that the peson arguing against you has their own reasons for feeling the way they do, just the same as you do.

As long as people are willing to understand each other the system works. Doesn't mean they need to like what the other person says, just that they get where they're coming from and aren't going to try killing each other over differences of opinion. If someone does not want to understand you and still only wishes to force their will on you believing it is right regardless of what you say, that is when violence becomes necessary as words will not work on people like that.

Wow I sound just like a preacher with all of this don't I? Oh well, its my opinion, take it or leave it.
 Quoting: Reiz


Both are equally cool and important really (it should never be either or, as everyone is bipolar and needs and fluctuates between both in reality)....as long as the systems are not elitist, hierarchal or suppressive they can co-exist together..but hierachal divisions and disharmony is our fundemental ongoing problem.
 Quoting: humanitech 6422179


what about looking at things different and say what would be the most positive. To work collectively to make a better fairer world for eachother...or to just compete and fight for our own personal benefit.

As that might present and lead to different responses.
 Quoting: humanitech 6422179


Individual personal benefit quite often and in fact mostly leads to collective benefit. Henry Ford made the car available to everyone. He benefited and so did the rest of the world. There are countless examples of this dynamic.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 04:50 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?


I couldn't help it :P

Hey its still relevant! It's showing extreme individualism. >:D
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 05:03 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Individual personal benefit quite often and in fact mostly leads to collective benefit. Henry Ford made the car available to everyone. He benefited and so did the rest of the world. There are countless examples of this dynamic.
 Quoting: s. d. butler


It only benefits everyone if everyone has access to it, however these days that is not the case. Lots of things are considered proprietary to certain companies or patented or etc. Even if the tech or idea has the ability to benefit the collective it can't because of individual greed. Even if it does trickle out to everyone else eventually, progress would've been exponentially faster if they just shared what they learned freely. It would have probably helped them as an individual as well if they had.
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
tranny witch nli
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12/08/2011 05:06 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Both Collectivist and Individualist, as it is written...

"Hear oh Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD is One. And you loved the LORD with all your heart and all your soul. And you loved your neighbour as yourself."

To believe in a God that is everywhere yet One, and to be at one with God by being in unity with your neighbours, is a belief in both principles.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 05:11 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Like, GM figured out how to mass produce a perfectly reliable electric car, the EV1 I think it was called. Required no gas or anything, barely had any parts to it, and worked very well for most people. However that idea was not allowed to become mainstream, likely because that threatened the oil and parts industries. And thus the government, media, and other corporations did everything they possibly could could keep the EV1 and its various competitor brands from Honda and Toyota and etc from becoming mainstream knowledge.

That tech could've been an absolutely massive step forward for humanity as a whole, however individual greed stopped it from happening.

Makes you wonder why there was a covert uproar about electric cars yet Netflix was allowed to destroy the video store business single handedly with no one batting an eye.

Probably because you can exact more control over people with transportation than entertainment. And stability can of course lead to stable markets and ongoing profits.
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 05:13 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Both Collectivist and Individualist, as it is written...

"Hear oh Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD is One. And you loved the LORD with all your heart and all your soul. And you loved your neighbour as yourself."

To believe in a God that is everywhere yet One, and to be at one with God by being in unity with your neighbours, is a belief in both principles.
 Quoting: tranny witch nli 1432972


What a shame many do not practice such principles.
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
Reiz (OP)

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12/08/2011 05:31 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Heh, another advantage of collectivism. Its harder to create an enemy within. I keep hearing more and more about how US soldiers are refusing to answer questions about whether they'd shoot American citizens, or just saying they wouldn't do it period. Well that makes perfect sense considering the thought processes of a collective, the idea of attacking yourself is totally irrational.

This is something that will be interesting to watch as it plays out. Obviously the most logical solution is to change the definition of what is an is not part of an American citizen. Scapegoating, a common fascist tactic.

However it appears that the States is having a little more trouble with it than I'd anticipated. But that can be easily overcome via the deindividuizing nature of organized forces like militaries. Put people in the same uniform, give them orders, they no longer really think as individuals. Even if they as an individual would not murder a civilian, they as a soldier being ordered as part of a platoon likely would. There've been lots of psychological experiments done in the past that have proven this. I wonder how effective it will really be, or if it will lead to civil war.
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Thread: List of false prophets and failed predictions.
s. d. butler

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12/08/2011 11:19 PM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
Like, GM figured out how to mass produce a perfectly reliable electric car, the EV1 I think it was called. Required no gas or anything, barely had any parts to it, and worked very well for most people. However that idea was not allowed to become mainstream, likely because that threatened the oil and parts industries. And thus the government, media, and other corporations did everything they possibly could could keep the EV1 and its various competitor brands from Honda and Toyota and etc from becoming mainstream knowledge.

That tech could've been an absolutely massive step forward for humanity as a whole, however individual greed stopped it from happening.

Makes you wonder why there was a covert uproar about electric cars yet Netflix was allowed to destroy the video store business single handedly with no one batting an eye.

Probably because you can exact more control over people with transportation than entertainment. And stability can of course lead to stable markets and ongoing profits.
 Quoting: Reiz


Yes, and the reason this happened is because the collective was threatened. All of them, not a single individual or single company. The industries mentioned and government and politicians banded together because their profits were threatened.

This pretty much proves the case that collectivism is evil. Without the collective the EV1 couldn't have been stopped.
Anonymous Coward
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12/09/2011 12:05 AM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
This article should help you all out

[link to www.reveresride.net]
Anonymous Coward
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12/09/2011 12:19 AM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
This article should help you all out

[link to www.reveresride.net]
s. d. butler

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12/09/2011 12:41 AM
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Re: Collectivism VS Individualism, which would you choose?
This article should help you all out

[link to www.reveresride.net]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1163836


Good find.