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Moscow anti-Putin protests live

 
Luisport

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12/10/2011 01:29 PM

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Luisport

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12/10/2011 01:29 PM

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damned

Last Edited by Luisport on 12/10/2011 01:30 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 01:29 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Anyway, my point is:
The Russian people should not destabilize their government at a point where growth of a capitalist economic system is moving forward. There has not been enough time since the fall of the communist system for the capitalist system to be fully realized. The point that the Russian economy seems to be in, is a necssary progression for the system to work, as well as healing the national mindset on how badly communism affected life as they knew it. They need to give the policies a chance to work FOR them, it will take time. Like I said earlier, I would much rather live with corruption in the government IF the policies were to push for economic and human freedom vs. a government that is trying to take away economic and human freedom, while it is still corrupt. And, power corrupts in every system, both in Russia as well as the US.
icsluca

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12/10/2011 01:32 PM
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.


I hope j e w s , "LGBT" [homos]
and the other scum of the earth
join the protests so the Russian
people will know what degenerate
bed fellows democracy makes.



.
 Quoting: Dr Doom


Democracy fails. Communism fails. Socialism fails. EVERY SYSTEM HAS THE POTENTIAL TO FAIL ESPECIALLY WHEN CORRUPTION TAKES HOLD. Communism does not allow for everyone to get a fair piece of the pie, it just allows for the corruption of the ones doling out that piece of pie, same as democracy. It is about cycles, the Russian communism had to die, because it had been tainted with corruption. AND THAT MEANS LESS FOR ALL WHO DEPEND ON THE SYSTEM. Now, the eople are needed to grow a capitalist system and they were used to smaller and smaller pices of the pie, and the mindset is stalling out the progress of creating a new cycle of economic systems.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932


no, even if there was no corruption communism would fail. communism fails because it's against the nature, the normal market. in communist regimes the industry, what is produced, by who, at what price, how much, is all dictated from the central government. corruption only speeds up the fall of any regime.
 Quoting: icsluca


I agree, it does go against a market system, which the dooms it to failure. Although, if there is enough money in the coffers of the central government, it will last and work for a period of time, until the central money supply is used up. Then it dies. Or a quicker death if corrupted.
But, capitalism fails eventually too. There is only so much growth that can happen before implosion happens, the "bubbles" we have had prove that. Although, market capitalism cycles last the longest before death of the system.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932


you had a nice run. and you're not finished yet
luca
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12/10/2011 01:41 PM
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...


Democracy fails. Communism fails. Socialism fails. EVERY SYSTEM HAS THE POTENTIAL TO FAIL ESPECIALLY WHEN CORRUPTION TAKES HOLD. Communism does not allow for everyone to get a fair piece of the pie, it just allows for the corruption of the ones doling out that piece of pie, same as democracy. It is about cycles, the Russian communism had to die, because it had been tainted with corruption. AND THAT MEANS LESS FOR ALL WHO DEPEND ON THE SYSTEM. Now, the eople are needed to grow a capitalist system and they were used to smaller and smaller pices of the pie, and the mindset is stalling out the progress of creating a new cycle of economic systems.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932


no, even if there was no corruption communism would fail. communism fails because it's against the nature, the normal market. in communist regimes the industry, what is produced, by who, at what price, how much, is all dictated from the central government. corruption only speeds up the fall of any regime.
 Quoting: icsluca


I agree, it does go against a market system, which the dooms it to failure. Although, if there is enough money in the coffers of the central government, it will last and work for a period of time, until the central money supply is used up. Then it dies. Or a quicker death if corrupted.
But, capitalism fails eventually too. There is only so much growth that can happen before implosion happens, the "bubbles" we have had prove that. Although, market capitalism cycles last the longest before death of the system.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932


you had a nice run. and you're not finished yet
 Quoting: icsluca


Yes we have. We have been lucky here in the states, but it seems the tide is turning and I hate to say it but the majority of people WANT socialism, we have created several generations of entitled attitudes in people. Just look at the Occupy Protesters.
Add into that the wealthy ARE wealthier, and have the money to lobby for what actions they want.
Our system is imploding, although it is a slow and steady implosion.
Dr Doom

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12/10/2011 01:42 PM
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.

It is not power that corrupts.

It's power in the hands of evil degenerate perverts that corrupts.

Democracy allows evil degenerate perverts to gain power.

Democracy breeds corruption, perversion and chaos.

The military, the church, the family... none of these
institutions are democratic... nor should they be...
nor should government be democratic... otherwise there
will be dysfunction and chaos.



.
__________

____
Dr Doom

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12/10/2011 01:49 PM
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.

Quote from the protest video:

" evolution not revolution "
__________



This is taken from a famous quote:

" Not by revolution, but through evolution,
are all things accomplished in permanency. "


.
__________

____
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 01:50 PM
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.

It is not power that corrupts.

It's power in the hands of evil degenerate perverts that corrupts.

Democracy allows evil degenerate perverts to gain power.

Democracy breeds corruption, perversion and chaos.

The military, the church, the family... none of these
institutions are democratic... nor should they be...
nor should government be democratic... otherwise there
will be dysfunction and chaos.



.
 Quoting: Dr Doom


Yes, it is power that corrupts, think about communism and how the corruption comes into being. Corruption is not inherently an evil, it exists because there is a different agenda in the one who holds the power, that does not equate to evil or perversion. It equates to a postion of power being exucuted in a way that is beneficial to the one in power.
Step back away from your emotional words and examine these systems from a studied perspective. Loaded words and rhetoric like evil, perverted, dengenerate, have no place in viewing the world we live in without judgement.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 02:03 PM
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.

It is not power that corrupts.

It's power in the hands of evil degenerate perverts that corrupts.

Democracy allows evil degenerate perverts to gain power.

Democracy breeds corruption, perversion and chaos.

The military, the church, the family... none of these
institutions are democratic... nor should they be...
nor should government be democratic... otherwise there
will be dysfunction and chaos.



.
 Quoting: Dr Doom


And your loaded words are showing that you have a closed mind and not open to a view of the world you are not comfortable with.
The best advice I recieved from a professor when reading political philosophy was to divorce myself fom my beliefs to be able to read and understand what the philosopher was trying to convey. Meaning you have to take your feelings out of the way, so that you can examine the subject in front of you without preconceived ideas. I didn't like reading Marx at first, I had to divorce myself from my feelings about him and the get to the subject matter. Look at the world as if it was a piece of art, examine it without taking it too personal at first, then decide what it is about it you do not like.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 02:08 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
.

Quote from the protest video:

" evolution not revolution "
__________



This is taken from a famous quote:

" Not by revolution, but through evolution,
are all things accomplished in permanency. "


.
 Quoting: Dr Doom


See, that is interesting. What type of evolution do the protesters want... because taking a key figure head out of office could be evolution if they want to stick with the system in place, rather than replacing it with communism again.
Dr Doom

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12/10/2011 02:10 PM
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__________
Quote:

" And your loaded words are showing that you have a closed mind and not open to a view of the world you are not comfortable with.
The best advice I recieved from a professor when reading political philosophy was to divorce myself fom my beliefs to be able to read and understand what the philosopher was trying to convey. Meaning you have to take your feelings out of the way, so that you can examine the subject in front of you without preconceived ideas. I didn't like reading Marx at first, I had to divorce myself from my feelings about him and the get to the subject matter. Look at the world as if it was a piece of art, examine it without taking it too personal at first, then decide what it is about it you do not like. "

_______________________




My words are the words of an Orthodox Christian Tsarist.


Marx was a j e w




.

Last Edited by Atossa on 12/10/2011 02:14 PM
__________

____
Dr Doom

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12/10/2011 02:22 PM
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__________
Quote:

" See, that is interesting. What type of evolution do the protesters want... because taking a key figure head out of office could be evolution if they want to stick with the system in place, rather than replacing it with communism again. "
__________________





You infer Russia only has two choices, secular pluralistic democracy or communism.

You forget that Russia was an autocratic Christian Monarchy for a 1000 years.





1917

February democratic revolution against Tsarist Russia.

October bolshevik revolution against democratic Russia.


1991

Communism falls and democracy rules.


2011 [?]

Democracy falls and God's Anointed Orthodox Autocratic Tsar rules !





.

Last Edited by Atossa on 12/10/2011 02:22 PM
__________

____
Anonymous Coward
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India
12/10/2011 02:23 PM
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Putin will be Tsar in 2012.




1917

February democratic revolution against Tsarist Russia.

October bolshevik revolution against democratic Russia.


1991

Communism falls and democracy rules.


2011 [?]

Democracy falls and God's Anointed Orthodox Autocratic Tsar rules !



.
 Quoting: Dr Doom


You have this conclusion on astrological charts?
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 02:25 PM
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__________
Quote:

" And your loaded words are showing that you have a closed mind and not open to a view of the world you are not comfortable with.
The best advice I recieved from a professor when reading political philosophy was to divorce myself fom my beliefs to be able to read and understand what the philosopher was trying to convey. Meaning you have to take your feelings out of the way, so that you can examine the subject in front of you without preconceived ideas. I didn't like reading Marx at first, I had to divorce myself from my feelings about him and the get to the subject matter. Look at the world as if it was a piece of art, examine it without taking it too personal at first, then decide what it is about it you do not like. "

_______________________




My words are the words of an Orthodox Christian Tsarist.


Marx was a j e w
What was Machiavelli? That is the philosophy I am most impressed by, lol.
I don't care about religious doctrine or words.
Divorce yourself from loaded words to conceptualize the subject.



.
 Quoting: Dr Doom
Dr Doom

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12/10/2011 02:28 PM
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.


I never divorce myself from my Christian faith...
and neither should Russia.




.
__________

____
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 02:36 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Marcuse was a great political philosopher also. His theories expand past socialism and communism, and go to the heart of what we are seeing in the US today- a consumer mass structure where it is a class-less society, meaning the class difference disappears and we are one gigantic mass colective of contolled consumer sheep without intention.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 02:38 PM
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I never divorce myself from my Christian faith...
and neither should Russia.




.
 Quoting: Dr Doom


I didn't ask you to divorce yourself from your faith, just the loaded rhetoric that keeps you from being able to see objectively.
Dr Doom

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12/10/2011 02:45 PM
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.


Godless secularists have destroyed the planet.

Now is the time for the return of God's Third Rome.

The Third Rome, Holy Russia, can not be resurrected
without the resurrection of God's Anointed Tsar.




.
__________

____
Kuutamo (OP)

User ID: 6873840
Russian Federation
12/10/2011 02:58 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Anyway, my point is:
The Russian people should not destabilize their government at a point where growth of a capitalist economic system is moving forward. There has not been enough time since the fall of the communist system for the capitalist system to be fully realized. The point that the Russian economy seems to be in, is a necssary progression for the system to work, as well as healing the national mindset on how badly communism affected life as they knew it. They need to give the policies a chance to work FOR them, it will take time. Like I said earlier, I would much rather live with corruption in the government IF the policies were to push for economic and human freedom vs. a government that is trying to take away economic and human freedom, while it is still corrupt. And, power corrupts in every system, both in Russia as well as the US.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932




You don`t understand, Russian economy is NOT capitalism. Capitalism means competition and cannot exist without it. In Russia your monetary, business success and social position strictly depends on your personal relationships with ruling families. Every economical branch is almost fully owned and monopolized by one of the personal Putin`s friend or relative. It`s pure neofeodalism under the masks of post-industrial era. After the end of communism era Russia made a step back, very far back historically... under the cursed communists rule we were at least world power and one of the most powerful industrial country in the world. Now we are the third world, "the republic of frozen bananas", the cheaper source of oil and gas for western world, nothing more. More than $500b of Putin`s clan are now in the US and Europe working for you, not for us... Putin is just pathetic and boring third world tyrant but western sheeple stupidly want to see a anti-NWO hero in him. I`m sorry, disillusioning sometimes is very painful but inevitable.


sheeplebah
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12/10/2011 03:07 PM
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Well, you are right about the capitalism and shock therapy. Western powers are basically unhappy they don't own it all yet.

But do you realize we are heading into WW3 right now? exactly the WRONG TIME for a weak hand?
Kuutamo (OP)

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12/10/2011 03:39 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Well, you are right about the capitalism and shock therapy. Western powers are basically unhappy they don't own it all yet.

But do you realize we are heading into WW3 right now? exactly the WRONG TIME for a weak hand?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5135901


The other thing you, westerners, also don`t want to see and understand, though it`s not a secret at all. Russian so called "military power" is totally faked by Putin. We here see it clearly that Russian generals are able to do only one thing - to tranfer the official military budget into their personal wealth. I`m afraid most of them even cannot shoot the AK-47. Their fat asses already do not fits into the seats of their luxurious limousines. WWIII? Huh... better forget it. Army is in ruins. Remember the war with Georgia in 2008? Only absolutely stupid moron can call it a Russian victory. It`s like kinda US vs Malta and Malta just lost a little part of its territory under the whole scale US attack. Who in good mental health could call it "victory"? But Putin does.

I`m really scared if Russia would be involved in any serious war under such a "strong hand" with such "mighty" army. I suspect very soon everybody will see that in Syria, though I seriously doubt that Putin has a balls to stand on the Assad`s side against the NATO forces. Unreal.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 04:01 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Well, you are right about the capitalism and shock therapy. Western powers are basically unhappy they don't own it all yet.

But do you realize we are heading into WW3 right now? exactly the WRONG TIME for a weak hand?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5135901


The other thing you, westerners, also don`t want to see and understand, though it`s not a secret at all. Russian so called "military power" is totally faked by Putin. We here see it clearly that Russian generals are able to do only one thing - to tranfer the official military budget into their personal wealth. I`m afraid most of them even cannot shoot the AK-47. Their fat asses already do not fits into the seats of their luxurious limousines. WWIII? Huh... better forget it. Army is in ruins. Remember the war with Georgia in 2008? Only absolutely stupid moron can call it a Russian victory. It`s like kinda US vs Malta and Malta just lost a little part of its territory under the whole scale US attack. Who in good mental health could call it "victory"? But Putin does.

I`m really scared if Russia would be involved in any serious war under such a "strong hand" with such "mighty" army. I suspect very soon everybody will see that in Syria, though I seriously doubt that Putin has a balls to stand on the Assad`s side against the NATO forces. Unreal.
 Quoting: Kuutamo


Yes ..I've heard that Russia's military power was all an illusion.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 04:02 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Anyway, my point is:
The Russian people should not destabilize their government at a point where growth of a capitalist economic system is moving forward. There has not been enough time since the fall of the communist system for the capitalist system to be fully realized. The point that the Russian economy seems to be in, is a necssary progression for the system to work, as well as healing the national mindset on how badly communism affected life as they knew it. They need to give the policies a chance to work FOR them, it will take time. Like I said earlier, I would much rather live with corruption in the government IF the policies were to push for economic and human freedom vs. a government that is trying to take away economic and human freedom, while it is still corrupt. And, power corrupts in every system, both in Russia as well as the US.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932




You don`t understand, Russian economy is NOT capitalism. Capitalism means competition and cannot exist without it. In Russia your monetary, business success and social position strictly depends on your personal relationships with ruling families. Every economical branch is almost fully owned and monopolized by one of the personal Putin`s friend or relative. It`s pure neofeodalism under the masks of post-industrial era. After the end of communism era Russia made a step back, very far back historically... under the cursed communists rule we were at least world power and one of the most powerful industrial country in the world. Now we are the third world, "the republic of frozen bananas", the cheaper source of oil and gas for western world, nothing more. More than $500b of Putin`s clan are now in the US and Europe working for you, not for us... Putin is just pathetic and boring third world tyrant but western sheeple stupidly want to see a anti-NWO hero in him. I`m sorry, disillusioning sometimes is very painful but inevitable.


sheeplebah
 Quoting: Kuutamo


bump
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 04:37 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Anyway, my point is:
The Russian people should not destabilize their government at a point where growth of a capitalist economic system is moving forward. There has not been enough time since the fall of the communist system for the capitalist system to be fully realized. The point that the Russian economy seems to be in, is a necssary progression for the system to work, as well as healing the national mindset on how badly communism affected life as they knew it. They need to give the policies a chance to work FOR them, it will take time. Like I said earlier, I would much rather live with corruption in the government IF the policies were to push for economic and human freedom vs. a government that is trying to take away economic and human freedom, while it is still corrupt. And, power corrupts in every system, both in Russia as well as the US.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932




You don`t understand, Russian economy is NOT capitalism. Capitalism means competition and cannot exist without it. In Russia your monetary, business success and social position strictly depends on your personal relationships with ruling families. Every economical branch is almost fully owned and monopolized by one of the personal Putin`s friend or relative. It`s pure neofeodalism under the masks of post-industrial era. After the end of communism era Russia made a step back, very far back historically... under the cursed communists rule we were at least world power and one of the most powerful industrial country in the world. Now we are the third world, "the republic of frozen bananas", the cheaper source of oil and gas for western world, nothing more. More than $500b of Putin`s clan are now in the US and Europe working for you, not for us... Putin is just pathetic and boring third world tyrant but western sheeple stupidly want to see a anti-NWO hero in him. I`m sorry, disillusioning sometimes is very painful but inevitable.


sheeplebah
 Quoting: Kuutamo


bump
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6881573


What do you think crony capitalism is? You described the conditions of crony capitalism, close to feudalism but not quite.
See, you, in Russia, are trying to reverse communism, that REQUIRES that steps be taken to bring in a capitalist system, which is the point Russia is at...trying through crony capitalism, which then, if continues to branch out to all the other upper class elite Putin handlers and family, then it is expanded a little more, then a little more as each family/friend of the elite gets "handed" some cronism.
You guys started with NOTHING in place to allow for capitalism, and now you have some positions to work from. Those dynamics are slow to put into action. It could take decades more to bring about FULL capitalism, because it has to be expansive- horizontaly and vertically through all of your systems, economic, governmental, and social.

Capitalism doesn't happen over just a few decades, your nations experiment in throwing off communism is still in its infancy. It is a gradual change, you are a young country in that respect.

Whereas, we in the states are pushing for more socialism, we are gradually changing also, it is not a quick desent we are making in running away from capitalism, we also have crony capitalism starting to become more incresingly visible and prevalent- that is meant TO PUSH US INTO SOCIALISM THEN COMMUNISM EVENTUALLY. The gradual reduction of private owned businesses is moving money and ower into the hands of the few(crony capitalism), then in our case, will be state owned as the rest of the businesses will be too big to fail.

Russia and the US are moving anti-parallel in the economic reforms.
Give the system you have now TIME, it will become closer to a capitalist society, not a feudal one, I am almost, almost certain.
Kuutamo (OP)

User ID: 6873840
Russian Federation
12/10/2011 05:03 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
Anyway, my point is:
The Russian people should not destabilize their government at a point where growth of a capitalist economic system is moving forward. There has not been enough time since the fall of the communist system for the capitalist system to be fully realized. The point that the Russian economy seems to be in, is a necssary progression for the system to work, as well as healing the national mindset on how badly communism affected life as they knew it. They need to give the policies a chance to work FOR them, it will take time. Like I said earlier, I would much rather live with corruption in the government IF the policies were to push for economic and human freedom vs. a government that is trying to take away economic and human freedom, while it is still corrupt. And, power corrupts in every system, both in Russia as well as the US.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6885932




You don`t understand, Russian economy is NOT capitalism. Capitalism means competition and cannot exist without it. In Russia your monetary, business success and social position strictly depends on your personal relationships with ruling families. Every economical branch is almost fully owned and monopolized by one of the personal Putin`s friend or relative. It`s pure neofeodalism under the masks of post-industrial era. After the end of communism era Russia made a step back, very far back historically... under the cursed communists rule we were at least world power and one of the most powerful industrial country in the world. Now we are the third world, "the republic of frozen bananas", the cheaper source of oil and gas for western world, nothing more. More than $500b of Putin`s clan are now in the US and Europe working for you, not for us... Putin is just pathetic and boring third world tyrant but western sheeple stupidly want to see a anti-NWO hero in him. I`m sorry, disillusioning sometimes is very painful but inevitable.


sheeplebah
 Quoting: Kuutamo


bump
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6881573


What do you think crony capitalism is? You described the conditions of crony capitalism, close to feudalism but not quite.
See, you, in Russia, are trying to reverse communism, that REQUIRES that steps be taken to bring in a capitalist system, which is the point Russia is at...trying through crony capitalism, which then, if continues to branch out to all the other upper class elite Putin handlers and family, then it is expanded a little more, then a little more as each family/friend of the elite gets "handed" some cronism.
You guys started with NOTHING in place to allow for capitalism, and now you have some positions to work from. Those dynamics are slow to put into action. It could take decades more to bring about FULL capitalism, because it has to be expansive- horizontaly and vertically through all of your systems, economic, governmental, and social.

Capitalism doesn't happen over just a few decades, your nations experiment in throwing off communism is still in its infancy. It is a gradual change, you are a young country in that respect.

Whereas, we in the states are pushing for more socialism, we are gradually changing also, it is not a quick desent we are making in running away from capitalism, we also have crony capitalism starting to become more incresingly visible and prevalent- that is meant TO PUSH US INTO SOCIALISM THEN COMMUNISM EVENTUALLY. The gradual reduction of private owned businesses is moving money and ower into the hands of the few(crony capitalism), then in our case, will be state owned as the rest of the businesses will be too big to fail.

Russia and the US are moving anti-parallel in the economic reforms.
Give the system you have now TIME, it will become closer to a capitalist society, not a feudal one, I am almost, almost certain.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6899124




You are right and such point is not new for us, we heard it from some serious Russian pro-Putin and independent political analysts.

The problem is the people of Russia are TOO sick and tired of our so-called "new elite" which does not want to throw away their feudal habits... maybe it`ll be not some kind of revolution but just the wave of "purification and renovation" of power... who knows, only time could tell.


Though my personal feelings are not optimistic.
Kuutamo (OP)

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Russian Federation
12/10/2011 05:17 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
The Russian radical nationalists anti-Putin rally is planned in Moscow for tomorrow, Dec, 11th at the same place and the same time. I believe it could be not so peaceful and smooth-going as today one.


rockon
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12/10/2011 05:20 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
...




You don`t understand, Russian economy is NOT capitalism. Capitalism means competition and cannot exist without it. In Russia your monetary, business success and social position strictly depends on your personal relationships with ruling families. Every economical branch is almost fully owned and monopolized by one of the personal Putin`s friend or relative. It`s pure neofeodalism under the masks of post-industrial era. After the end of communism era Russia made a step back, very far back historically... under the cursed communists rule we were at least world power and one of the most powerful industrial country in the world. Now we are the third world, "the republic of frozen bananas", the cheaper source of oil and gas for western world, nothing more. More than $500b of Putin`s clan are now in the US and Europe working for you, not for us... Putin is just pathetic and boring third world tyrant but western sheeple stupidly want to see a anti-NWO hero in him. I`m sorry, disillusioning sometimes is very painful but inevitable.


sheeplebah
 Quoting: Kuutamo


bump
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6881573


What do you think crony capitalism is? You described the conditions of crony capitalism, close to feudalism but not quite.
See, you, in Russia, are trying to reverse communism, that REQUIRES that steps be taken to bring in a capitalist system, which is the point Russia is at...trying through crony capitalism, which then, if continues to branch out to all the other upper class elite Putin handlers and family, then it is expanded a little more, then a little more as each family/friend of the elite gets "handed" some cronism.
You guys started with NOTHING in place to allow for capitalism, and now you have some positions to work from. Those dynamics are slow to put into action. It could take decades more to bring about FULL capitalism, because it has to be expansive- horizontaly and vertically through all of your systems, economic, governmental, and social.

Capitalism doesn't happen over just a few decades, your nations experiment in throwing off communism is still in its infancy. It is a gradual change, you are a young country in that respect.

Whereas, we in the states are pushing for more socialism, we are gradually changing also, it is not a quick desent we are making in running away from capitalism, we also have crony capitalism starting to become more incresingly visible and prevalent- that is meant TO PUSH US INTO SOCIALISM THEN COMMUNISM EVENTUALLY. The gradual reduction of private owned businesses is moving money and ower into the hands of the few(crony capitalism), then in our case, will be state owned as the rest of the businesses will be too big to fail.

Russia and the US are moving anti-parallel in the economic reforms.
Give the system you have now TIME, it will become closer to a capitalist society, not a feudal one, I am almost, almost certain.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6899124




You are right and such point is not new for us, we heard it from some serious Russian pro-Putin and independent political analysts.

The problem is the people of Russia are TOO sick and tired of our so-called "new elite" which does not want to throw away their feudal habits... maybe it`ll be not some kind of revolution but just the wave of "purification and renovation" of power... who knows, only time could tell.


Though my personal feelings are not optimistic.
 Quoting: Kuutamo


I understand the Russian people have had a very hard time exiting the communist system, it is not an easy reversal.

I do hope for your sake that the protests and the outcome is a "purification" bringing with it the realization that more reforms are needed and put into place to "speed" up the results of changing from crony capitalism into a more free capitalist society. I know the frustration level must be high, but, I hope that frustation doesn't backfire on the people and lead to the government stalling out on what could be some small moves towards fixing the system.

I think, just from what I see, the people are frustrated and are being "led by the nose" to overturn a system that some powerful people don't want Russia to have. Think aboout all the nations that are spiraling right now, who benefits from the governments being overturned? The West and the power players of the world.

The elite here in the states are supporting the Occupy Protests, the people out in the street do not realized they are being used by the elite and the government, I bet the mass of people demonstrating in Russia don't know to what extent that are being used as pawns by the other elite groups, either.
Kuutamo (OP)

User ID: 6873840
Russian Federation
12/10/2011 05:33 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
...


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 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6881573


What do you think crony capitalism is? You described the conditions of crony capitalism, close to feudalism but not quite.
See, you, in Russia, are trying to reverse communism, that REQUIRES that steps be taken to bring in a capitalist system, which is the point Russia is at...trying through crony capitalism, which then, if continues to branch out to all the other upper class elite Putin handlers and family, then it is expanded a little more, then a little more as each family/friend of the elite gets "handed" some cronism.
You guys started with NOTHING in place to allow for capitalism, and now you have some positions to work from. Those dynamics are slow to put into action. It could take decades more to bring about FULL capitalism, because it has to be expansive- horizontaly and vertically through all of your systems, economic, governmental, and social.

Capitalism doesn't happen over just a few decades, your nations experiment in throwing off communism is still in its infancy. It is a gradual change, you are a young country in that respect.

Whereas, we in the states are pushing for more socialism, we are gradually changing also, it is not a quick desent we are making in running away from capitalism, we also have crony capitalism starting to become more incresingly visible and prevalent- that is meant TO PUSH US INTO SOCIALISM THEN COMMUNISM EVENTUALLY. The gradual reduction of private owned businesses is moving money and ower into the hands of the few(crony capitalism), then in our case, will be state owned as the rest of the businesses will be too big to fail.

Russia and the US are moving anti-parallel in the economic reforms.
Give the system you have now TIME, it will become closer to a capitalist society, not a feudal one, I am almost, almost certain.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6899124




You are right and such point is not new for us, we heard it from some serious Russian pro-Putin and independent political analysts.

The problem is the people of Russia are TOO sick and tired of our so-called "new elite" which does not want to throw away their feudal habits... maybe it`ll be not some kind of revolution but just the wave of "purification and renovation" of power... who knows, only time could tell.


Though my personal feelings are not optimistic.
 Quoting: Kuutamo


I understand the Russian people have had a very hard time exiting the communist system, it is not an easy reversal.

I do hope for your sake that the protests and the outcome is a "purification" bringing with it the realization that more reforms are needed and put into place to "speed" up the results of changing from crony capitalism into a more free capitalist society. I know the frustration level must be high, but, I hope that frustation doesn't backfire on the people and lead to the government stalling out on what could be some small moves towards fixing the system.

I think, just from what I see, the people are frustrated and are being "led by the nose" to overturn a system that some powerful people don't want Russia to have. Think aboout all the nations that are spiraling right now, who benefits from the governments being overturned? The West and the power players of the world.

The elite here in the states are supporting the Occupy Protests, the people out in the street do not realized they are being used by the elite and the government, I bet the mass of people demonstrating in Russia don't know to what extent that are being used as pawns by the other elite groups, either.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6899124






Agree and fully share your view of the events.

My concern is we do not see any adequate reactions from Putin`s administration so far... what they doing and saying could only deepen the crysis unfolding today.

We heard the comments of Putin officials on Russian TV about today rally. I`d tell these people at least do not understand what is happening. Very sad.
Anonymous Coward
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12/10/2011 05:55 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
"Agree and fully share your view of the events.

My concern is we do not see any adequate reactions from Putin`s administration so far... what they doing and saying could only deepen the crysis unfolding today.

We heard the comments of Putin officials on Russian TV about today rally. I`d tell these people at least do not understand what is happening. Very sad"

I shortened our conversation, it was getting too long!
I hope Putin does get it soon. I don't see asking him and Medevev to step down will do Rusia any good. I think people have to infiltrate the administration through the "in" door- meaning people who can help change the adminstration from inside, but I hope your citizens don't push him out.

I look at the "Arab Spring" as a sad event, as the people of those nations are not going to be any better off for a very long time, if ever. They replace one government that was offensive to them for another that also is offensive. You know, its that old saying, "be careful of what you wish for, you might get it", and I am sure that any freedom and democracy (whatever form it takes)that happens in Egypt, Tunsia, ect. will be fleeting for the people, as another government will be set up to ignore their needs.

I hope that Russia doesn't have that dynamic, as I look at your nation as a strong one, that can stand up to the West's constant screwing with other nations. We, in the US, need to have our ass handed to us politically (not war), just to keep a leash on the destuctive meddling we are doing in other countries. I say that because that meddling is what is coming back to haunt us, and I really want a safe country for my kids to live in, not one where there will be eventual war either by another country or non-state actors.
Kuutamo (OP)

User ID: 6873840
Russian Federation
12/10/2011 06:34 PM
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Re: Moscow anti-Putin protests live
"I shortened our conversation, it was getting too long!
I hope Putin does get it soon. I don't see asking him and Medevev to step down will do Rusia any good. I think people have to infiltrate the administration through the "in" door- meaning people who can help change the adminstration from inside, but I hope your citizens don't push him out.

I look at the "Arab Spring" as a sad event, as the people of those nations are not going to be any better off for a very long time, if ever. They replace one government that was offensive to them for another that also is offensive. You know, its that old saying, "be careful of what you wish for, you might get it", and I am sure that any freedom and democracy (whatever form it takes)that happens in Egypt, Tunsia, ect. will be fleeting for the people, as another government will be set up to ignore their needs.

I hope that Russia doesn't have that dynamic, as I look at your nation as a strong one, that can stand up to the West's constant screwing with other nations. We, in the US, need to have our ass handed to us politically (not war), just to keep a leash on the destuctive meddling we are doing in other countries. I say that because that meddling is what is coming back to haunt us, and I really want a safe country for my kids to live in, not one where there will be eventual war either by another country or non-state actors."
-------------------

To be realistic, I don`t see at the moment that Putin and Medvedev personally have many chances to keep their "tandem-presidency" for any longer. It`s a fact, love it or hate it.

I`m closely monitoring Russian MSM and there are some not yet widely known events happening here pointing that Putin`s most loyal supporters are ready to leave them. Looks like rats fleeing the ship. At least the smart ones. So I guess the process of Putin`s administration desintegration is already irreversible.

To where it leads... damn, I dunno... Russia always has her own unpredictable dynamic, sometimes having nothing in common with other countries examples.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments and lets watch how it all goes... interesting time we live.



grouphug

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