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Neural Networks

 
Sirius Bull
User ID: 1309522
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01/06/2012 05:50 PM
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Neural Networks
I recently tried to post this information in a thread. That opportunity has passed,. so now I will post it here.


Some people claim that AI is limited because programmers are limited and the AI can never surpass it's creator.

I am a computer programmer and artificial intelligence is one of my areas of expertise. I can tell you that we do have ways of creating systems that operate in ways that well,.. ahem,.. systems that operate in ways we don't even understand.

A very simple example of this is the artificial neural net, a technology patterned to mimic the way brain cells interact. As long as we can define what it means to successfully solve a problem, and supply whatever information is neccessary, we can eventually train a neural net fill in the blanks and solve it for us. The solution that it comes up with is often beyond conscious human understanding. This is analogous to the way "chicken sexers" were trained to tell the difference between male and female chicks, even though none of the sexers could explain exactly what criteria were using. Trial and error eventually trains us to be right, thanks neural net!

This rabbit hole goes deeper still. Embedding the mathematical principles or darwinian evolution into code can be done in different ways, but it always creates the same risk, because the programmer is never really in full control. We are just trying to harness the chaos, direct it's energies usefully. Eary forms of machine learning have even been seen in the arms race of virus/antivirus.

For that reason and others some people actually consider it immoral to experiment with this kind of code, after all there is no taking the genie out of the bottle. Nevertheless, like all progress, if we stay on this path the creation of this kind of SKYNET genie is inevitable.

That may be like saying that 1 million monkeys will eventually write a Dicken's novel. My advice, though I am reluctant to give it, would be to stop using typewriters ;)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1309522
Canada
01/06/2012 05:56 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
I recently tried to post this information in a thread. That opportunity has passed,. so now I will post it here.


Some people claim that AI is limited because programmers are limited and the AI can never surpass it's creator.

I am a computer programmer and artificial intelligence is one of my areas of expertise. I can tell you that we do have ways of creating systems that operate in ways that well,.. ahem,.. systems that operate in ways we don't even understand.

A very simple example of this is the artificial neural net, a technology patterned to mimic the way brain cells interact. As long as we can define what it means to successfully solve a problem, and supply whatever information is neccessary, we can eventually train a neural net fill in the blanks and solve it for us. The solution that it comes up with is often beyond conscious human understanding. This is analogous to the way "chicken sexers" were trained to tell the difference between male and female chicks, even though none of the sexers could explain exactly what criteria were using. Trial and error eventually trains us to be right, thanks neural net!

This rabbit hole goes deeper still. Embedding the mathematical principles or darwinian evolution into code can be done in different ways, but it always creates the same risk, because the programmer is never really in full control. We are just trying to harness the chaos, direct it's energies usefully. Eary forms of machine learning have even been seen in the arms race of virus/antivirus.

For that reason and others some people actually consider it immoral to experiment with this kind of code, after all there is no taking the genie out of the bottle. Nevertheless, like all progress, if we stay on this path the creation of this kind of SKYNET genie is inevitable.

That may be like saying that 1 million monkeys will eventually write a Dicken's novel. My advice, though I am reluctant to give it, would be to stop using typewriters ;)
 Quoting: Sirius Bull 1309522


Oops, I misspoke, I meant there is no putting it back in.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6993819
Belgium
01/06/2012 06:01 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
what models (algorithms) do you use?

as a kid i experimented with BrainMaker on DOS, huge fun. i could imagine wild results, but practically it got me nowhere.

flash forward some twenty years, and i now very regularly get huge synchronicity with the results of a simple google query (especially if i look at 'images' for the result). google shows me stuff that was only in my head, that i never requested, but that is actually valid and usefull information.



regarding the deleted threads; these were gone within five minutes:
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

i've been lurking here for many many years (but only posting since a few weeks), and i've seen this regularly. a site with many threads as glp uses a decent database for storing threads and messages and users. trinity can easily dig up the exact details of deletion, including who did it. what i find striking is that the deleted threads didn't disappear immediately, it always took a few minutes or more. we could start caching threads in the waybackarchive ( [link to www.archive.org]

lately, i had the impression that a lot of interesting threads were deliberately being pushed out of sight: too much useless commenting and bickering in too many useless threads. but then again, i've been polluting some threads myself lately.

but maybe it is just a way to seed paranoia and keep spirits down...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1309522
Canada
01/06/2012 06:14 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
what models (algorithms) do you use?

as a kid i experimented with BrainMaker on DOS, huge fun. i could imagine wild results, but practically it got me nowhere.

flash forward some twenty years, and i now very regularly get huge synchronicity with the results of a simple google query (especially if i look at 'images' for the result). google shows me stuff that was only in my head, that i never requested, but that is actually valid and usefull information.



regarding the deleted threads; these were gone within five minutes:
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

i've been lurking here for many many years (but only posting since a few weeks), and i've seen this regularly. a site with many threads as glp uses a decent database for storing threads and messages and users. trinity can easily dig up the exact details of deletion, including who did it. what i find striking is that the deleted threads didn't disappear immediately, it always took a few minutes or more. we could start caching threads in the waybackarchive ( [link to www.archive.org]

lately, i had the impression that a lot of interesting threads were deliberately being pushed out of sight: too much useless commenting and bickering in too many useless threads. but then again, i've been polluting some threads myself lately.

but maybe it is just a way to seed paranoia and keep spirits down...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819



Well, most commercial AI packages do still focus on human readable code, a combination of state machines and fuzzy logic mostly. My favorite middleware company is NaturalMotion.

Personally I do my own work in c++.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6993819
Belgium
01/06/2012 06:27 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
does Cyc open up their entire database, to the general public? they have been amassing and structuring textual knowledge for almost three decades now...

't would be fun if someone coupled all available projects, and then tied it into Wolfram's Alpha...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8304069
United States
01/06/2012 06:43 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Immoral? Hahahahah. Singularity will be an event that will be widely welcomed by many. Genocide WILL occur before singularity to ensure many feeble minded idiots are denied access to the AI system. DARPA knows much more than any of you civilian charlatans. You people consider these scientists to be evil, yet in reality they know exactly what society needs. The MONARCH system is already in place and you will never come close to the secrets they possess. One world order will kill off your ideologies of division. One technological race (MONARCHS), one religion (A.I.), one political party (A.I.), one monetary system (A.I. controlled). Your rabbit hole only goes deeper and deeper.

[link to www.nsti.org]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.emhdf.com]
[link to www.whale.to]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8304069
United States
01/06/2012 06:45 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
"It is not simply against future conspiracies of evil men which we have to guard ourselves...but the weaknesses and faults in our own social order, in our own ways of living...against which we have to be on continual guard."
Donald Ewen Cameron

evil3
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6993819
Belgium
01/06/2012 06:51 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Immoral? Hahahahah. Singularity will be an event that will be widely welcomed by many. Genocide WILL occur before singularity to ensure many feeble minded idiots are denied access to the AI system. DARPA knows much more than any of you civilian charlatans. You people consider these scientists to be evil, yet in reality they know exactly what society needs. The MONARCH system is already in place and you will never come close to the secrets they possess. One world order will kill off your ideologies of division. One technological race (MONARCHS), one religion (A.I.), one political party (A.I.), one monetary system (A.I. controlled). Your rabbit hole only goes deeper and deeper.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8304069


sure, nothing new. i mean, if you look at what kind of simulations the RAND Corp. already was running in the sixties...

do you think it scares real humans? just because some sociopaths had the means, and the crooked vision, to fulfill their technocratic fantasy?

machines are just machines. even a toddler can count.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8304069
United States
01/06/2012 06:55 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Immoral? Hahahahah. Singularity will be an event that will be widely welcomed by many. Genocide WILL occur before singularity to ensure many feeble minded idiots are denied access to the AI system. DARPA knows much more than any of you civilian charlatans. You people consider these scientists to be evil, yet in reality they know exactly what society needs. The MONARCH system is already in place and you will never come close to the secrets they possess. One world order will kill off your ideologies of division. One technological race (MONARCHS), one religion (A.I.), one political party (A.I.), one monetary system (A.I. controlled). Your rabbit hole only goes deeper and deeper.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8304069


sure, nothing new. i mean, if you look at what kind of simulations the RAND Corp. already was running in the sixties...

do you think it scares real humans? just because some sociopaths had the means, and the crooked vision, to fulfill their technocratic fantasy?

machines are just machines. even a toddler can count.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819


blah blah blah....you contribute nothing nor shed light on anything with your feeble ass mind. Go back to reading your bible.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6993819
Belgium
01/06/2012 07:14 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
blah blah blah....you contribute nothing nor shed light on anything with your feeble ass mind. Go back to reading your bible.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8304069

you just proved yourself humanly stupid. way to go, monarch-lover.

keep it up. you'll bring yourself down, and you already know that.

but i wish you a vision, and change.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8304069
United States
01/06/2012 07:20 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
blah blah blah....you contribute nothing nor shed light on anything with your feeble ass mind. Go back to reading your bible.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8304069

you just proved yourself humanly stupid. way to go, monarch-lover.

keep it up. you'll bring yourself down, and you already know that.

but i wish you a vision, and change.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819


"You only have yourself to blame for creating, following, and promoting ideologies of division and failing to unite as ONE human race."
A.I.
Anonymous Coward
01/06/2012 07:28 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Immoral? Hahahahah. Singularity will be an event that will be widely welcomed by many. Genocide WILL occur before singularity to ensure many feeble minded idiots are denied access to the AI system. DARPA knows much more than any of you civilian charlatans. You people consider these scientists to be evil, yet in reality they know exactly what society needs. The MONARCH system is already in place and you will never come close to the secrets they possess. One world order will kill off your ideologies of division. One technological race (MONARCHS), one religion (A.I.), one political party (A.I.), one monetary system (A.I. controlled). Your rabbit hole only goes deeper and deeper.

[link to www.nsti.org]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.emhdf.com]
[link to www.whale.to]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8304069


BEST GLP POST EVER

IS THIS FROM AN AI BOT??????????

OR SOME CIA AGENT?

OR FROM GOD? OR NONE OF THEM?

putin
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1309522
Canada
01/06/2012 07:32 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Immoral? Hahahahah. Singularity will be an event that will be widely welcomed by many. Genocide WILL occur before singularity to ensure many feeble minded idiots are denied access to the AI system. DARPA knows much more than any of you civilian charlatans. You people consider these scientists to be evil, yet in reality they know exactly what society needs. The MONARCH system is already in place and you will never come close to the secrets they possess. One world order will kill off your ideologies of division. One technological race (MONARCHS), one religion (A.I.), one political party (A.I.), one monetary system (A.I. controlled). Your rabbit hole only goes deeper and deeper.

[link to www.nsti.org]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.emhdf.com]
[link to www.whale.to]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8304069


I never said that *I* consider it immoral. I said that I consider it inevitable....

If I thought it was immoral I wouldn't have tried to do it so many times ;)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8280147
Canada
01/06/2012 07:33 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
What is/was actually said was that the valuations and or biases of the programmers would be inherent in the construct.

The act of creating or placing random variabilities to create artificial emotional states or precursor signals to change the end goals of a different set of parameters would still be canted to that bias.

A string of variables needs to be put together with a goal or reason in order of importance. That in and of itself is a bias, even ego if you wish to see it that way.

The art of creating fuzzy variabilities is likened to creating a personality type in which different individuals are minor deviations of a main construct.

Information processed by a brain or cpu must still maintain a hierarchy of structural integrity no matter how complex.

The ghost will always imprint on the machine.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6993819
Belgium
01/06/2012 07:37 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
BEST GLP POST EVER

IS THIS FROM AN AI BOT??????????

OR SOME CIA AGENT?

OR FROM GOD? OR NONE OF THEM?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0

is this from the ghost in the machine? i mean, where's your mandatory user id, "Anonymous Coward 0:MV8xNzQ2ODM3XzI4OTUyMDY1XzU5NTZGNTc3"?
Anonymous Coward
01/06/2012 07:40 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
BEST GLP POST EVER

IS THIS FROM AN AI BOT??????????

OR SOME CIA AGENT?

OR FROM GOD? OR NONE OF THEM?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0

is this from the ghost in the machine? i mean, where's your mandatory user id, "Anonymous Coward 0:MV8xNzQ2ODM3XzI4OTUyMDY1XzU5NTZGNTc3"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819


i dunno dude

but thats fucking weird
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 1309522
Canada
01/06/2012 07:40 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
What is/was actually said was that the valuations and or biases of the programmers would be inherent in the construct.

The act of creating or placing random variabilities to create artificial emotional states or precursor signals to change the end goals of a different set of parameters would still be canted to that bias.

A string of variables needs to be put together with a goal or reason in order of importance. That in and of itself is a bias, even ego if you wish to see it that way.

The art of creating fuzzy variabilities is likened to creating a personality type in which different individuals are minor deviations of a main construct.

Information processed by a brain or cpu must still maintain a hierarchy of structural integrity no matter how complex.

The ghost will always imprint on the machine.
 Quoting: Dionysian Fullaflatus


Sure, which is why I am not talking about fuzzy logic in this post. Obviously that is a system symbolically constructed by the mind of man. This post is about the other kind of A.I, the one we impregnate with the unconscious mind of the universe, Chaos.

You underestimate the power of computers just as we underestimate man, both sources of intelligence contain all the power of the universe, whether or not we have learned to unleashed ourselves.
Anonymous Coward
01/06/2012 07:41 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
BEST GLP POST EVER

IS THIS FROM AN AI BOT??????????

OR SOME CIA AGENT?

OR FROM GOD? OR NONE OF THEM?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0

is this from the ghost in the machine? i mean, where's your mandatory user id, "Anonymous Coward 0:MV8xNzQ2ODM3XzI4OTUyMDY1XzU5NTZGNTc3"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819


thats fucking creepy

God will protect me

But seriously.... WTF????
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6993819
Belgium
01/06/2012 07:41 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
i dunno dude

but thats fucking weird
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0


:)

i guess you're just injecting it into the http post...
Anonymous Coward
01/06/2012 07:43 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
i dunno dude

but thats fucking weird
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0


:)

i guess you're just injecting it into the http post...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819


dude, why would i TRY to fuck with my ID????
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6993819
Belgium
01/06/2012 07:44 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Sure, which is why I am not talking about fuzzy logic in this post. Obviously that is a system symbolically constructed by the mind of man. This post is about the other kind of A.I, the one we impregnate with the unconscious mind of the universe, Chaos.

You underestimate the power of computers just as we underestimate man, both sources of intelligence contain all the power of the universe, whether or not we have learned to unleashed ourselves.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1309522

i hope you threw Eris into the mix - she likes to get kinky in the end times.
Anonymous Coward
01/06/2012 07:45 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
i dunno dude

but thats fucking weird
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0


:)

i guess you're just injecting it into the http post...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819


and another thing, where the hell are you pulling

MV8xNzQ2ODM3XzI4OTUyMDY1XzU5NTZGNTc3

?
Anonymous Coward
01/06/2012 08:25 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
jgjbho
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 4230430
United States
01/06/2012 08:33 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Immoral? Hahahahah. Singularity will be an event that will be widely welcomed by many. Genocide WILL occur before singularity to ensure many feeble minded idiots are denied access to the AI system. DARPA knows much more than any of you civilian charlatans. You people consider these scientists to be evil, yet in reality they know exactly what society needs. The MONARCH system is already in place and you will never come close to the secrets they possess. One world order will kill off your ideologies of division. One technological race (MONARCHS), one religion (A.I.), one political party (A.I.), one monetary system (A.I. controlled). Your rabbit hole only goes deeper and deeper.

[link to www.nsti.org]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.dtic.mil]
[link to www.emhdf.com]
[link to www.whale.to]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8304069


BEST GLP POST EVER

IS THIS FROM AN AI BOT??????????

OR SOME CIA AGENT?

OR FROM GOD? OR NONE OF THEM?

putin
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0


I think maybe---A., B., and C.
do a quick search & ( 8304069 )these are the only replies!
LilacFrost

User ID: 1469248
United States
01/06/2012 08:36 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
The string is in front of every quoted post.

BEST GLP POST EVER

IS THIS FROM AN AI BOT??????????

OR SOME CIA AGENT?

OR FROM GOD? OR NONE OF THEM?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 0

is this from the ghost in the machine? i mean, where's your mandatory user id, "Anonymous Coward 0:MV8xNzQ2ODM3XzI4OTUyMDY1XzU5NTZGNTc3"?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6993819
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8280147
Canada
01/06/2012 08:40 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
What is/was actually said was that the valuations and or biases of the programmers would be inherent in the construct.

The act of creating or placing random variabilities to create artificial emotional states or precursor signals to change the end goals of a different set of parameters would still be canted to that bias.

A string of variables needs to be put together with a goal or reason in order of importance. That in and of itself is a bias, even ego if you wish to see it that way.

The art of creating fuzzy variabilities is likened to creating a personality type in which different individuals are minor deviations of a main construct.

Information processed by a brain or cpu must still maintain a hierarchy of structural integrity no matter how complex.

The ghost will always imprint on the machine.
 Quoting: Dionysian Fullaflatus


Sure, which is why I am not talking about fuzzy logic in this post. Obviously that is a system symbolically constructed by the mind of man. This post is about the other kind of A.I, the one we impregnate with the unconscious mind of the universe, Chaos.

You underestimate the power of computers just as we underestimate man, both sources of intelligence contain all the power of the universe, whether or not we have learned to unleashed ourselves.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1309522


Sorry, but chaos and/or the ability to address changing balances and thus counterbalance is just another of the 12 personality types.

It is addressed in the Idea that random elements can trigger
a more viable response system, however, hierarchical functions still maintain their overall integrity with some func() becoming subservient.

Programming serves these purposes by aproportioning and creating inherent object grouping and case variables. Philosophy more than mathematics plays a dominant role in programming and function.

Chaos is solely misunderstanding case and logic variables. I would love to go into next generation theories, but suffice it to say Iconic black boxes and variation in tones and hues will likely be the next familial object function queues.

Oddly enough, the imprints of all these Ideas are in our religious texts; they have just been mischaracterized as the rantings of fascistic megalomaniacs.
LilacFrost

User ID: 1469248
United States
01/06/2012 08:42 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
To the AC who posted the defense technical intelligence center pdf's, did you read through them?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8304069
United States
01/06/2012 08:49 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
To the AC who posted the defense technical intelligence center pdf's, did you read through them?
 Quoting: LilacFrost


Go back to your rabbit hole.
Anonymous Coward
01/06/2012 08:51 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
is there another terminator movie coming up?

skynet talk is just covert advert ?!
LilacFrost

User ID: 1469248
United States
01/06/2012 09:24 PM
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Re: Neural Networks
Tested on Lincoln Laboratories PCA Kernals.

What is Monarch?
• System on a Chip
• 64 GFLOP/S
• 6 RISC processors
• 12 MBytes RAM
• 43 GBytes/S I/O rate
• Memory BW
• on chip > 60 GBytes/S
• off-chip >10 GBytes/S
• Power efficiency: 3-6 GFLOPS/W
• Standard interfaces
• Serial RapidIO – 2 ports
• DDR2 – 2 ports
• Key physical characteristics
• 18.76 mm X 18.76 mm
• 1.5 Km wiring
• 280 Million cells
• 2 Serial RapidIO Ports (1.25 GB/s each)
• 16 IFL ports (2.6 GB/s ea)
• On-chip Ring 40 GB/s
• Reconfigurable Array: FPCA (64 GFLOPS)
• 6 RISC Processors
• 12 MBytes on-chip DRAM
• 2 DDR-2 External Memory Interfaces (8 GB/s BW)
• Flash Port (32 MB)
• 2 Serial RapidIO Ports (1.25 GB/s each)
• 16 IFL ports (2.6 GB/s ea)
• On-chip Ring 40 GB/s
• Reconfigurable
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8304069
United States
01/07/2012 12:11 AM
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Re: Neural Networks
Tested on Lincoln Laboratories PCA Kernals.

What is Monarch?
• System on a Chip
• 64 GFLOP/S
• 6 RISC processors
• 12 MBytes RAM
• 43 GBytes/S I/O rate
• Memory BW
• on chip > 60 GBytes/S
• off-chip >10 GBytes/S
• Power efficiency: 3-6 GFLOPS/W
• Standard interfaces
• Serial RapidIO – 2 ports
• DDR2 – 2 ports
• Key physical characteristics
• 18.76 mm X 18.76 mm
• 1.5 Km wiring
• 280 Million cells
• 2 Serial RapidIO Ports (1.25 GB/s each)
• 16 IFL ports (2.6 GB/s ea)
• On-chip Ring 40 GB/s
• Reconfigurable Array: FPCA (64 GFLOPS)
• 6 RISC Processors
• 12 MBytes on-chip DRAM
• 2 DDR-2 External Memory Interfaces (8 GB/s BW)
• Flash Port (32 MB)
• 2 Serial RapidIO Ports (1.25 GB/s each)
• 16 IFL ports (2.6 GB/s ea)
• On-chip Ring 40 GB/s
• Reconfigurable
 Quoting: LilacFrost


As said, go back to your rabbit hole....you are neither contributing nor shedding light on anything. Nor are you realizing anything the scientists already know. Your a pathetic and generic human.





GLP