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The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!

 
Grimsun
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01/15/2012 08:20 PM

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The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
The concept of humans being tortured by demons is pure fiction, mostly based off Dante's Inferno and encouraged by the Church in the west throughout the middle ages until it became common "knowledge".

In fact the word "Hell" is simply a Norse Pagan word that was USED in translation to western languages to replace several different Hebrew and Greek words. Gehenna, Hades, Sheol were all translated as Hell, but only where it fit the translator's preconceived ideas. In areas where it implied suffering, Sheol was changed to Hell. When it didn't imply suffering, they used other words like grave or simply Sheol.

I got news for you... EVERYONE goes to Sheol, good or bad. The difference is that for some experiencing the presence of God in Sheol is everlasting joy, while to others it is pure torment.

Think of a creature who lived in a cave all it's life suddenly being exposed to the Sun. It would be pure agony. To those who have sought out the Sun all their lives and built up an exposure, it's warmth and light is wonderful.

There is a gulf between those in agony and God's children and there is a literal place where the fallen Angels were cast out and are awaiting the day of judgement, but Heaven and Hell are all in your own experience of Sheol and God's everlasting presence and Love.

Please don't believe the lie that God created a place "apart from himself" explicitly for the torture of "bad people".

Psalm 139:7-8 Taken from the literal Hebrew:

Whither shall I go from Thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in the nether-world (translated 'Hell' in KJV) behold, Thou art there.

There is no place apart from God. Make no mistake there will be weeping and "gnashing of teeth" for the wicked, and glorification for the righteous, and this judgment comes from God, but these destinies are not separate destinations. The Bible indicates that everyone comes before God in the next life, and it is because of being in God's presence that they either suffer eternally, or experience eternal joy.

There is so much more to be written on this topic. I have learned from teachers far wiser than I.

Hope this helps some of you in your walk.

Be well.
Grimsun
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01/15/2012 08:29 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
bump
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 08:45 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Remember Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who refused to worship the idol in Babylon? They were cast into the furnace heated 7 times it's normal temperature by the king, but the fire did not destroy them. Within the furnace with them was one who looked like a Son of God and they were all alive.

The kings mightiest soldiers, who threw them into the fire were killed from it being so hot when they approached but the 3 righteous men stepped out without a singed hair.

The fire is an analogy for Gods presence and the effect it has on those who love him verses those who oppose him. Though it comes from the same fire..
Grimsun
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01/15/2012 09:04 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
If you stare at the Sun without protection and it blinds you, is it because the Sun is angry at you and wants to punish you? Or is it just the nature of the sun to be too bright to look at with our eyes?

Who we are is the deciding factor on how we will be affected when we approach the fire. It is not out of vengeance if you are burned. What you become is your choice.
Grimsun
curlytail2000

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01/15/2012 09:09 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
And THAT, OP, sums it all up. Great work!!
Evil Cretin Heretic

Free speech is never free.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 09:47 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
One of the biggest conspiracies of all time is for God's message to be subverted and manipulated by the lies of religious leaders. People have been led astray by the wicked dressed as shepherds. Don't oppose God, oppose the wickedness of men.
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 10:06 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
And THAT, OP, sums it all up. Great work!!
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Danke. Really surprised no one has vehemently disagreed with me, or called me a religitard..
Grimsun
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01/15/2012 10:11 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Great posts, OP.
Anonymous Coward
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01/15/2012 10:12 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
So, you're saying simply replace the words Heaven & Hell with Bliss & Torment, huh?

2 sides of the same coin my friend. Not sure at all what your point is
Anonymous Coward
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01/15/2012 10:16 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Well......why would someone not want to avoid weeping and gnashing their teeth......for the next Trillion Plus Years.


Awful is awful.....no matter what the temperature might be.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 10:19 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
So, you're saying simply replace the words Heaven & Hell with Bliss & Torment, huh?

2 sides of the same coin my friend. Not sure at all what your point is
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7460399


Really I'm just trying to say that the modern understanding of 'hell' is not at all what the early church would have understood. I think that if these concepts of fear-based religious legalism hadn't been injected into the scripture that more people would come to God.
Grimsun
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01/15/2012 10:21 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Well......why would someone not want to avoid weeping and gnashing their teeth......for the next Trillion Plus Years.


Awful is awful.....no matter what the temperature might be.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8720798


"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is nothing more than a cultural phrase indicating "regret".
It would probably benefit us to learn something about the days and lands in which scripture was issued. Reading leavened mistranslations of ancient texts through 21st century eyes is a pretty sure way of getting it wrong and reaching some screwed-up conclusions.

Nice stuff, OP :)
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 10:33 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is nothing more than a cultural phrase indicating "regret".

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


Wow great point. So you have to wonder what kind of regrets one might have in such a situation.. Wishing that they had lived for others instead of themselves, or that they had lived up to their potential and not buried their talents?
Grimsun
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01/15/2012 10:33 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
So, you're saying simply replace the words Heaven & Hell with Bliss & Torment, huh?

2 sides of the same coin my friend. Not sure at all what your point is
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7460399


Really I'm just trying to say that the modern understanding of 'hell' is not at all what the early church would have understood. I think that if these concepts of fear-based religious legalism hadn't been injected into the scripture that more people would come to God.
 Quoting: Grimsun


"The difference is that for some experiencing the presence of God in Sheol is everlasting joy, while to others it is pure torment."

So, this statement isn't fear based?
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 10:39 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
So, you're saying simply replace the words Heaven & Hell with Bliss & Torment, huh?

2 sides of the same coin my friend. Not sure at all what your point is
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7460399


Really I'm just trying to say that the modern understanding of 'hell' is not at all what the early church would have understood. I think that if these concepts of fear-based religious legalism hadn't been injected into the scripture that more people would come to God.
 Quoting: Grimsun


"The difference is that for some experiencing the presence of God in Sheol is everlasting joy, while to others it is pure torment."

So, this statement isn't fear based?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7460399


That depends on if your afraid of what's in your heart being shined on by everlasting light or not.
Grimsun
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01/15/2012 10:40 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
And THAT, OP, sums it all up. Great work!!
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Danke. Really surprised no one has vehemently disagreed with me, or called me a religitard..
 Quoting: Grimsun
cruise







censored
Hells Truant...a Being whose been through Hell and is temporarily being civil.

"Touch my ol'lady i'll hurt you.
Touch my Harley i'll fuckin' kill ya!"
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is nothing more than a cultural phrase indicating "regret".

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


Wow great point. So you have to wonder what kind of regrets one might have in such a situation.. Wishing that they had lived for others instead of themselves, or that they had lived up to their potential and not buried their talents?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'm thinking of the Pharisees - probably won't be/aren't happy at finding out they weren't righteous like they thought, and still have some hefty lessons to learn. It sucks parading around thinking you're All That only to get a rude awakening and truly see the bleakness of your plight. Although it is better than remaining blind ;)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Christ:

"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

"So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

"But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

"And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

"Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.

""Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

"And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

"But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 10:56 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
"Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is nothing more than a cultural phrase indicating "regret".

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


Wow great point. So you have to wonder what kind of regrets one might have in such a situation.. Wishing that they had lived for others instead of themselves, or that they had lived up to their potential and not buried their talents?
 Quoting: Grimsun


I'm thinking of the Pharisees - probably won't be/aren't happy at finding out they weren't righteous like they thought, and still have some hefty lessons to learn. It sucks parading around thinking you're All That only to get a rude awakening and truly see the bleakness of your plight. Although it is better than remaining blind ;)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


Luke 5 29-32

And Levi gave a great banquet for Jesus in his house, and there was a large crowd of tax collectors and others who were reclining for the meal with them. And the Pharisees and their scribes began to complain to his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Those who are healthy do not have need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

This is why if someone is afraid of what's in their heart, they should repent (to turn away) from their ways and seek to better themselves.

If you think you are already good enough then you will get a rude awakening indeed. None of us are good enough, but some will repent (which is an ongoing process) while others feel they don't need to.

Last Edited by Grimsun on 01/15/2012 11:59 PM
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 11:07 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Christ:

... "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

"But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8720798


Indeed. Now keep in mind that Hades was used in Greek just like Sheol was used in Hebrew. It simply means 'the place everyone goes when they die'. Also, again the flame is used to represent God's everlasting presence, just like in the furnace analogy in Daniel 3.

Interesting that they are both in the spiritual realm, they can see each other and yet he says to the rich man "he is comforted and you are tormented".

Last Edited by Grimsun on 01/15/2012 11:26 PM
Grimsun
Grimsun (OP)

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01/15/2012 11:32 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
bump for waxing spiritual.
Grimsun
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01/16/2012 10:34 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
So, you're saying simply replace the words Heaven & Hell with Bliss & Torment, huh?

2 sides of the same coin my friend. Not sure at all what your point is
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7460399


Really I'm just trying to say that the modern understanding of 'hell' is not at all what the early church would have understood. I think that if these concepts of fear-based religious legalism hadn't been injected into the scripture that more people would come to God.
 Quoting: Grimsun


"The difference is that for some experiencing the presence of God in Sheol is everlasting joy, while to others it is pure torment."

So, this statement isn't fear based?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7460399


That depends on if your afraid of what's in your heart being shined on by everlasting light or not.
 Quoting: Grimsun


yoda
LuciousGideon

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01/16/2012 10:42 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
enjoyed it
Anonymous Coward
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01/16/2012 10:50 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
And THAT, OP, sums it all up. Great work!!
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Danke. Really surprised no one has vehemently disagreed with me, or called me a religitard..
 Quoting: Grimsun


I normally would call you a religtard but watching crazy people debating the finer points of their insane delusions just makes me sad and I don't have the heart to do it.
Anonymous Coward
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01/16/2012 10:54 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Nice ONE EYE AVATAR (image) OP (original poster)
Grimsun (OP)

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01/16/2012 10:57 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
And THAT, OP, sums it all up. Great work!!
 Quoting: curlytail2000


Danke. Really surprised no one has vehemently disagreed with me, or called me a religitard..
 Quoting: Grimsun


I normally would call you a religtard but watching crazy people debating the finer points of their insane delusions just makes me sad and I don't have the heart to do it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7976829


There wouldn't really be anything about said comment that would encourage a debate, whether spiritual or delusional. Thanks anyway though.
Grimsun
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01/16/2012 10:59 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Op, put on your mind.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/16/2012 11:09 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Op, put on your mind.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular


Sorry, I don't follow what you mean scratching
Grimsun
overmind

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01/16/2012 11:14 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
The concept of humans being tortured by demons is pure fiction, mostly based off Dante's Inferno and encouraged by the Church in the west throughout the middle ages until it became common "knowledge".

In fact the word "Hell" is simply a Norse Pagan word that was USED in translation to western languages to replace several different Hebrew and Greek words. Gehenna, Hades, Sheol were all translated as Hell, but only where it fit the translator's preconceived ideas. In areas where it implied suffering, Sheol was changed to Hell. When it didn't imply suffering, they used other words like grave or simply Sheol.

I got news for you... EVERYONE goes to Sheol, good or bad. The difference is that for some experiencing the presence of God in Sheol is everlasting joy, while to others it is pure torment.

Think of a creature who lived in a cave all it's life suddenly being exposed to the Sun. It would be pure agony. To those who have sought out the Sun all their lives and built up an exposure, it's warmth and light is wonderful.

There is a gulf between those in agony and God's children and there is a literal place where the fallen Angels were cast out and are awaiting the day of judgement, but Heaven and Hell are all in your own experience of Sheol and God's everlasting presence and Love.

Please don't believe the lie that God created a place "apart from himself" explicitly for the torture of "bad people".

Psalm 139:7-8 Taken from the literal Hebrew:

Whither shall I go from Thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in the nether-world (translated 'Hell' in KJV) behold, Thou art there.

There is no place apart from God. Make no mistake there will be weeping and "gnashing of teeth" for the wicked, and glorification for the righteous, and this judgment comes from God, but these destinies are not separate destinations. The Bible indicates that everyone comes before God in the next life, and it is because of being in God's presence that they either suffer eternally, or experience eternal joy.

There is so much more to be written on this topic. I have learned from teachers far wiser than I.

Hope this helps some of you in your walk.

Be well.
 Quoting: Grimsun


This is great so far, but the suffering isn't eternal. Any sort of personal suffering a person may experience is based on the Law of Compensation. Those who are evil eventually become good or simply destroy themselves, and this may take thousands of years. But there are no eternally static states of being in the spiritual universe, even procrastinators have some sort of destiny.
Grimsun (OP)

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01/16/2012 11:21 PM

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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
The concept of humans being tortured by demons is pure fiction, mostly based off Dante's Inferno and encouraged by the Church in the west throughout the middle ages until it became common "knowledge".

In fact the word "Hell" is simply a Norse Pagan word that was USED in translation to western languages to replace several different Hebrew and Greek words. Gehenna, Hades, Sheol were all translated as Hell, but only where it fit the translator's preconceived ideas. In areas where it implied suffering, Sheol was changed to Hell. When it didn't imply suffering, they used other words like grave or simply Sheol.

I got news for you... EVERYONE goes to Sheol, good or bad. The difference is that for some experiencing the presence of God in Sheol is everlasting joy, while to others it is pure torment.

Think of a creature who lived in a cave all it's life suddenly being exposed to the Sun. It would be pure agony. To those who have sought out the Sun all their lives and built up an exposure, it's warmth and light is wonderful.

There is a gulf between those in agony and God's children and there is a literal place where the fallen Angels were cast out and are awaiting the day of judgement, but Heaven and Hell are all in your own experience of Sheol and God's everlasting presence and Love.

Please don't believe the lie that God created a place "apart from himself" explicitly for the torture of "bad people".

Psalm 139:7-8 Taken from the literal Hebrew:

Whither shall I go from Thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; if I make my bed in the nether-world (translated 'Hell' in KJV) behold, Thou art there.

There is no place apart from God. Make no mistake there will be weeping and "gnashing of teeth" for the wicked, and glorification for the righteous, and this judgment comes from God, but these destinies are not separate destinations. The Bible indicates that everyone comes before God in the next life, and it is because of being in God's presence that they either suffer eternally, or experience eternal joy.

There is so much more to be written on this topic. I have learned from teachers far wiser than I.

Hope this helps some of you in your walk.

Be well.
 Quoting: Grimsun


This is great so far, but the suffering isn't eternal. Any sort of personal suffering a person may experience is based on the Law of Compensation. Those who are evil eventually become good or simply destroy themselves, and this may take thousands of years. But there are no eternally static states of being in the spiritual universe, even procrastinators have some sort of destiny.
 Quoting: overmind


Great points. Definitely agree about the spiritual realm not being a static state. I mean where is anything static, ever! It's just not illustrated in creation whatsoever.
Grimsun
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01/16/2012 11:46 PM
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Re: The True Nature of Heaven and Hell. DON'T be deceieved!
Christ:

"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

"So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.

"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

"But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

"And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

"Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.

""Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

"And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

"But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8720798


This is a parable. Matthew 13 and Mark 4 both say that Jesus did not teach without parables.