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I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!

 
SwampRatLost
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01/26/2012 02:08 PM

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I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
If you are like me and millions of others, you have watched Meth quickly destroying your local towns and cities. And possibly, like me, have also seen it destroy people you love.

Well the other night I watched a Frontline episode concerning the Meth epidemic. In which they pointed out one reason that Meth addiction is so difficult to beat.

Meth use damages connections in the brain where Dopamine is released. While using, the brain is flooded with Dopamine, which is the thing in the brain that causes a person to feel pleasure. But it also damages these connections, so once a person stops using, they have problems with severe depression, and reports of being unable to feel ANY pleasure AT ALL!! This is so severe, many return to using.

Well... The very next day I caught an episode of Dr. Oz on Electroconvulsive therapy(ECT), or as most know it "Electro Shock Therepy".

And how this therapy has changed dramatically over the years, and has gotten a bad rap. And how it can produce life saving results in patients with severe depression.

It works by shocking damaged connections in the brain that produce dopamine, into working again.

From what I can see, I see no one considering this treatment for former addicts. And believe this could be hugely beneficial in treatment. Here is some more info on both... What do you guys think?

[link to m.drugabuse.gov]

Methamphetamine's adverse effects on the brain are clear. Imaging studies have demonstrated changes in the dopamine system (important for reward, motivation, and learning) as well as structural and functional deficits in brain areas associated with emotion and memory. These may account for the psychiatric and cognitive problems observed in chronic abusers. Fortunately, some of the methamphetamine-induced deficits in dopamine function have been shown to recover, at least partially, with extended abstinence (Figure 2). But even with the partial recovery found in some brain regions following protracted abstinence, other regions do not show recovery of function—suggesting that long-lasting and even permanent brain changes may result from methamphetamine abuse.

[link to serendip.brynmawr.edu]
The most common neurotransmitter systems involved in depression are the dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin systems. These systems are also involved in other psychiatric conditions, and include a long list of neurochemical correlates. It ranges from endorphins, enkephalins and prolactin, to GABA, glutamate and acetylcholine correlates. All of these systems in some way or another are involved in the behavioral manifestations of psychiatric illness, yet researchers do not know which systems are more involved with depression, than depression with psychosis. If this is unknown, then certainly the mechanism of action will not make sense, especially if there are multitudes of chemicals involved. The excessive amount of possible neurochemical correlates makes it difficult to sort out which chemicals are normal and which relate to the mental illness. Complexity of the system doubles when illnesses become comorbid.

The etiology of major depression for instance, hypothesizes it occurs because of a lack of activity in neurotransmitter systems (dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin) (5) Some argue that the ECT-induced seizures create an upsurge of activity in the brain, and therefore increase any or all of these neurotransmitters, resulting in an elevated mood (4). For the other mental conditions, such as schizophrenia, ECT increases the prefrontal cortex activity, which may be low in these patients (1). For those in a catatonic state, ECT revives their stupor. How? Researchers do not know. Their best hypothesis or guess would say, 'Electrical stimulation in the brains of catatonics, creates more activity in the brain. This neuro-stimulation and activation may have allowed for involuntary communication within the brain, and therefore the automatic reconnection of the mental processes, and ultimate recovery'. Clearly, this is just as vague as 'ECT induces activity in the areas of the brain that are inactive in those who are depressed', or schizophrenic. If science knew the mechanism of these psychiatric conditions, then the mode of action for ECT would not be as vague. Similarly, if science knew the action of ECT, the mechanisms for psychiatric conditions of which ECT is effective could be insightful as well.
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:09 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
.45 acp? 1dunno1

I can't stand the sight or scent of a trifling ass meth fiend.
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:10 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Breaking Bad is a damn good show.
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:10 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Breaking Bad is a damn good show.
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:16 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
.45 acp? 1dunno1

I can't stand the sight or scent of a trifling ass meth fiend.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324238


I know... And feel the same way much of the time. To the point if wanting to puke.

But also as pointed out in the Frontline report, depending on the purity of the Meth, users can become addicted literally after using this crap ONCE!!

Imagine some dumb ass kid throwing his life away, with almost no hope of recovery, after one stupid night of bad decisions :(
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:19 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Why do so many meth heads live out in the boonies or small towns?
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:19 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
So the one star is because you hate Meth addicts?

And in no way has anything to do with my theory?

What a jackass!
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:21 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Why do so many meth heads live out in the boonies or small towns?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8158935


Because that is where it is usually produced and manufactured. And for years the easiest places to get the ingredients for the process.
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:22 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
.45 acp? 1dunno1

I can't stand the sight or scent of a trifling ass meth fiend.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324238


I know... And feel the same way much of the time. To the point if wanting to puke.

But also as pointed out in the Frontline report, depending on the purity of the Meth, users can become addicted literally after using this crap ONCE!!

Imagine some dumb ass kid throwing his life away, with almost no hope of recovery, after one stupid night of bad decisions :(
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


False, it's addiction potential has been greatly overstated. It's not like heroin. I was using it every day for about a year and had no trouble stopping. That was about a decade ago. It wasn't really any harder than quitting coffee.
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:23 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Seriously, this is some bullshit, the dangers of meth are vastly overblown. Most of those peoples lives were fucked to begin with.
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:24 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Seriously, this is some bullshit, the dangers of meth are vastly overblown. Most of those peoples lives were fucked to begin with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7116965


+1
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:27 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
.45 acp? 1dunno1

I can't stand the sight or scent of a trifling ass meth fiend.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324238


I know... And feel the same way much of the time. To the point if wanting to puke.

But also as pointed out in the Frontline report, depending on the purity of the Meth, users can become addicted literally after using this crap ONCE!!

Imagine some dumb ass kid throwing his life away, with almost no hope of recovery, after one stupid night of bad decisions :(
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


False, it's addiction potential has been greatly overstated. It's not like heroin. I was using it every day for about a year and had no trouble stopping. That was about a decade ago. It wasn't really any harder than quitting coffee.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043


And likely during the time that purity levels were down. This is clearly pointed out in the Frontline report. And the main point reached in this second report done on Meth. About ten yrs ago was right about the time of the last reduction in purity. It was right after they shut down the production of a pair of Mexican brothers, that produced some of the most pure product ever seen. And the majority source of what was found on Americas streets.
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:30 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Seriously, this is some bullshit, the dangers of meth are vastly overblown. Most of those peoples lives were fucked to begin with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7116965


+1
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043


Neither of you guys, obviously have enough maturity and experience to see what is actually happening.
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:31 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
.45 acp? 1dunno1

I can't stand the sight or scent of a trifling ass meth fiend.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1324238


I know... And feel the same way much of the time. To the point if wanting to puke.

But also as pointed out in the Frontline report, depending on the purity of the Meth, users can become addicted literally after using this crap ONCE!!

Imagine some dumb ass kid throwing his life away, with almost no hope of recovery, after one stupid night of bad decisions :(
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


False, it's addiction potential has been greatly overstated. It's not like heroin. I was using it every day for about a year and had no trouble stopping. That was about a decade ago. It wasn't really any harder than quitting coffee.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043


And likely during the time that purity levels were down. This is clearly pointed out in the Frontline report. And the main point reached in this second report done on Meth. About ten yrs ago was right about the time of the last reduction in purity. It was right after they shut down the production of a pair of Mexican brothers, that produced some of the most pure product ever seen. And the majority source of what was found on Americas streets.
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


Higher purity only means people use less to get the desired effect. It does not make it a qualitatively different drug.
Mercury

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01/26/2012 02:33 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
So electroshock MIGHT work for SOME of these people...
Maybe. Could be tried on a few self-appointed volunteers who want to recover.

I am a little skeptical of the whole meth phenomenon though. Drugs' effects vary so much based on their perception - the introducing suggestions. When I was young, it was whispered that heroin will frequently hook people after first use. And apparently it did. You got maximum one year to live.

Then the same thing was said about cocaine. Then a few years later it was freebasing coke, then ectasy, then it was crack.

I read somewhere that the positive effects of electroshock are not that different from several forms of deep meditation.
Om shivashakti-yaikya-rupinyai namah
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:35 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Seriously, this is some bullshit, the dangers of meth are vastly overblown. Most of those peoples lives were fucked to begin with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7116965


+1
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043


Neither of you guys, obviously have enough maturity and experience to see what is actually happening.
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


How do you know? I was a user myself and I'm no spring chicken. I have enough experience with this drug to know what it's about.
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:38 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
There is a specific correlation between the increase in Meth addiction, and the purity levels of the Meth available at that time.

Watch the Frontline piece...
[link to www.pbs.org]
The government's focus shifted after 1994, when a customs agent inadvertently discovered a large, illicit shipment of ephedrine on a plane traveling from India to Mexico. During an 18-month period in the early 1990s, a Mexican drug cartel had purchased 170 tons of ephedrine from Indian manufacturers and smuggled it into the United States, where it was turned into as much as 2 billion hits of meth. This accidental find was a hopeful moment in the history of the meth epidemic, and efforts to cut off the drug lords' supply escalated. Once U.S. authorities asked the manufacturers to cease exports to the Mexican cartel, the chemicals became more expensive, and the purity of meth on America's streets started to plunge—along with addiction rates. "We at Krebs Biochemicals would have been happy if the DEA or other American authorities had told us, 'You can deal with these guys, they're OK, but don't deal with these guys,'" says Dr. R.T. Ravi, an administrator at the company. "We would rather that our product did not fall into the wrong hands."

Soon, however, the cartel would be back in business. Cold medicines remained unregulated for years, and the cartel took advantage of the situation, scooping up pills by the tens of thousands, even punching them out of their packets and distilling the ephedrine and pseudoephedrine in them to make meth. Today, the number of meth addicts is skyrocketing: With 1.4 million users in the U.S. alone and millions more around the world, the United Nations calls meth the most abused hard drug on earth.




...


I know... And feel the same way much of the time. To the point if wanting to puke.

But also as pointed out in the Frontline report, depending on the purity of the Meth, users can become addicted literally after using this crap ONCE!!

Imagine some dumb ass kid throwing his life away, with almost no hope of recovery, after one stupid night of bad decisions :(
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


False, it's addiction potential has been greatly overstated. It's not like heroin. I was using it every day for about a year and had no trouble stopping. That was about a decade ago. It wasn't really any harder than quitting coffee.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043


And likely during the time that purity levels were down. This is clearly pointed out in the Frontline report. And the main point reached in this second report done on Meth. About ten yrs ago was right about the time of the last reduction in purity. It was right after they shut down the production of a pair of Mexican brothers, that produced some of the most pure product ever seen. And the majority source of what was found on Americas streets.
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


Higher purity only means people use less to get the desired effect. It does not make it a qualitatively different drug.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:39 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
In other words, Meth gives you brain damage.

To reverse the brain damage, you have to 1: abstain; 2: reverse the damage. 3:heal daily

The damage being also the training that the methmonster applied to his neural connecitons. Those have to disconnect. It will hurt. Then they have to re-path. That will hurt.

Then there is no guarantee with the new paved ways in the brain, that this person will choose to drive his mind over the new stuff.

They are brainapelegic people after that chemical abuse. There is no soft cure.
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:42 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Seriously, this is some bullshit, the dangers of meth are vastly overblown. Most of those peoples lives were fucked to begin with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7116965


+1
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043


Neither of you guys, obviously have enough maturity and experience to see what is actually happening.
 Quoting: SwampRatLost


How do you know? I was a user myself and I'm no spring chicken. I have enough experience with this drug to know what it's about.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 430043


Just because you were lucky enough to escape it means nothing compared to factual statistics. And quite stupid to blanket your one experience with the MAJORITY of others, who's experience is quite the opposite
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:43 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
eliminate hillbillies
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:44 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
In other words, Meth gives you brain damage.

To reverse the brain damage, you have to 1: abstain; 2: reverse the damage. 3:heal daily

The damage being also the training that the methmonster applied to his neural connecitons. Those have to disconnect. It will hurt. Then they have to re-path. That will hurt.

Then there is no guarantee with the new paved ways in the brain, that this person will choose to drive his mind over the new stuff.

They are brainapelegic people after that chemical abuse. There is no soft cure.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3239394


Agreed, but if this can have a positive response in even half, a quarter, isn't worth trying?
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:49 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
paula deen diet give brain damage, bubba
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:50 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
So electroshock MIGHT work for SOME of these people...
Maybe. Could be tried on a few self-appointed volunteers who want to recover.

I am a little skeptical of the whole meth phenomenon though. Drugs' effects vary so much based on their perception - the introducing suggestions. When I was young, it was whispered that heroin will frequently hook people after first use. And apparently it did. You got maximum one year to live.

Then the same thing was said about cocaine. Then a few years later it was freebasing coke, then ectasy, then it was crack.

I read somewhere that the positive effects of electroshock are not that different from several forms of deep meditation.
 Quoting: Mercury


I've dealt with addiction in my family my entire life...

Some want to truly change, yet forces in their brains and body, make it such an uphill battle. A battle that after years of addiction, their bodies and minds, can't seem to overcome, no matter how much desire they have for change.

I know many that would appreciate any help, leg up, they could get during recovery.
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 02:53 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
eliminate hillbillies
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9630854


If you believe this is only a backwoods, hillbilly problem, you are sorely mistaken. It's moving your way quickly dear, just open your eyes.
"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 02:58 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 03:15 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
I witnessed an ECT Therapy Session.

The aftermath wasn't pretty.

The chick was in a LOT of pain.

But I do admit, after the treatment she did seem happier and her eyes were brighter.

But damn does medical science have very "painful" cures.

I can't wait till we evolve to have Star Trek like doctors with simple and more effective cures.
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 03:19 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Seriously, this is some bullshit, the dangers of meth are vastly overblown. Most of those peoples lives were fucked to begin with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7116965


There is some truth to your statement, meth attracts a certain crowd. However, I would hardly call the dangers "overblown". I used to live in a meth-heavy city, and of the 30 or so people I knew on it, only 2 were able to live something resembling a normal life. The others became sickly, disgusting thieves.

Now, I am all for "live and let live", and I am not telling anyone what to do. I just know what I know from experiences...it IS dangerous in the wrong hands (which, frankly, is most).
Anonymous Coward
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01/26/2012 03:21 PM
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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
Ibogaine
Bowyn Aerrow

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01/26/2012 03:37 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
I used 'steadily' for ten years. I was what you could call a 'weekend warrior' for 9 of those years.

I used on weekends, and vacation, used for raves - lots of us kids were doing it back then.

Lots of my buddies were also using and maintaining a life, a job, paying mortgage, bills, etc.

It wasn't until my company closed down and I ended up with lots of free time on my hands that I went wild with it and started doing it nearly daily.

THAT is when it becomes a problem.

And it is not really the meth that is the problem, it is the fact you stop sleeping.

The brain goes batshit without deep REM sleep.

Lets say you go tweaking for a three day run, you crash for 24 hours. the first 8-12 hours of that crash is being 'passed out' its not true sleep, thus no REM. its not until later, after you pass beyond the 'passed out' part that you start sleeping and having REM sleep.

No imagine that you tweak for 2-4 days, crash for 24-48 hours, tweak for 2-4 days. you soon build up a REM debt - where you are not sleeping (and dreaming) enough to match the time you are awake.

THAT is when the picking, the paranoia, the 'bad tweaking' behavior start to set in. Lack of sleep, not the drug, is messing with your head.

Those people you see on Frontline and on that neat video called 'faces of meth' are not suffering from meth - they are suffering from lack of sleep - big time REM deprivation.

For every one of them there is 10-12 'weekend warriors' out there. People tweaking on weekends, or occasionally tweaking and doing things like raving (dancing for 16 hours straight) or having 'marathon sex' (sex for 8, 10, 16+ hours nonstop) But they are doing it for 1-2 days and then spend 5-6 days eating and sleeping 'normally'. A person can do that for decades - a whole life and not end up on the faces of Meth video.

You only hear about the ten percent, the really low of the low. This would be like you hearing about the 10% of alcoholics that got it so bad they are homeless, jobless and winos on the street.

I know guys who are now in their 60's and have been doing meth since their 20's on a weekend warrior program. They are healthy (most really healthy as in no issues), the majority have aged gracefully - fewer lines and wrinkles. have large retirement funds and look on the surface to be fine upstanding citizens.
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SwampRatLost (OP)

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01/26/2012 04:08 PM

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Re: I've got a radical theory to treat Meth Addiction!!!
I have to disagree on some of what you said...

And I can do that with knowledge and experience, as I am a Registered Polysomnographic Technician (Sleep Tech)

Yes Much of what you say concerning lack of REM sleep is accurate.

But I can tell you years of experience with patients with severe apnea, many of which have gotten very little REM sleep for years...

None of them show the DEGREE of physical and psychological damage, that these Meth addicts do!!!!

These results CANNOT be explained away as only sleep deprivation.

It is METH!

I used 'steadily' for ten years. I was what you could call a 'weekend warrior' for 9 of those years.

I used on weekends, and vacation, used for raves - lots of us kids were doing it back then.

Lots of my buddies were also using and maintaining a life, a job, paying mortgage, bills, etc.

It wasn't until my company closed down and I ended up with lots of free time on my hands that I went wild with it and started doing it nearly daily.

THAT is when it becomes a problem.

And it is not really the meth that is the problem, it is the fact you stop sleeping.

The brain goes batshit without deep REM sleep.

Lets say you go tweaking for a three day run, you crash for 24 hours. the first 8-12 hours of that crash is being 'passed out' its not true sleep, thus no REM. its not until later, after you pass beyond the 'passed out' part that you start sleeping and having REM sleep.

No imagine that you tweak for 2-4 days, crash for 24-48 hours, tweak for 2-4 days. you soon build up a REM debt - where you are not sleeping (and dreaming) enough to match the time you are awake.

THAT is when the picking, the paranoia, the 'bad tweaking' behavior start to set in. Lack of sleep, not the drug, is messing with your head.

Those people you see on Frontline and on that neat video called 'faces of meth' are not suffering from meth - they are suffering from lack of sleep - big time REM deprivation.

For every one of them there is 10-12 'weekend warriors' out there. People tweaking on weekends, or occasionally tweaking and doing things like raving (dancing for 16 hours straight) or having 'marathon sex' (sex for 8, 10, 16+ hours nonstop) But they are doing it for 1-2 days and then spend 5-6 days eating and sleeping 'normally'. A person can do that for decades - a whole life and not end up on the faces of Meth video.

You only hear about the ten percent, the really low of the low. This would be like you hearing about the 10% of alcoholics that got it so bad they are homeless, jobless and winos on the street.

I know guys who are now in their 60's and have been doing meth since their 20's on a weekend warrior program. They are healthy (most really healthy as in no issues), the majority have aged gracefully - fewer lines and wrinkles. have large retirement funds and look on the surface to be fine upstanding citizens.
 Quoting: Bowyn Aerrow

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them" - Eph. 5:11

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