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Abortion: A different perspective.

 
Milo Minderbinder
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02/15/2012 09:41 AM
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Abortion: A different perspective.
Ok..there is another thread on here about abortion which is caught up in the endless pro-life vs. pro-choice arguments centering around circular logic. I keep posting some points and questions for people, but they are quickly getting lost in religious and political rhetoric.

I'm genuinely interested in what people think about the following issues surrounding abortion. Please respond...we never hear these questions in the media, or political/religious debates.

1. Is it "irresponsible" to bring a child into a world which will most likely be either, A) An overpopulated, highly polluted & toxic, fascist hellscape of ever-dwindling resources or B) There is some time of large-scale depopulating event such as global thermonuclear war, superflu pandemic, meteor strike, some combination thereof, etc. In this event...you have brought a child into the fucking apocalypse.

2. This one is for the Catholics (especially)- There is often much ado about how it is wrong to take an "innocent life". However, according to any form of Christianity which believes in Original Sin and baptismal rites a newborn infant is nothing short of hellspawn and will burn in the eternal lake of fire unless they are baptised. Therefore...wouldn't the fetus only be "innocent" if baptismal rights were performed in utero?

3.] For the crowd who opposes abortion even when the mother's life is in danger- Assuming the mother has been baptised, asked forgiveness for her sins, and has accepted Christ as her personal savior...how does one put a higher priority on the fetus than the infant? The problem of Original Sin from #2 aside...isn't the Mother also "innocent"? That's what Jesus purportedly died for, right? Are there "degrees of innocence"? Can you negotiate with God or is "innocence" an absolute? Does one's "innocence" slowly evaporate over time so that an infant naturally has a greater degree of it than an adult? If so...does this mean that all elderly people are inherently more evil than all teenagers? I'm confused...please...help me understand.

4. Why is God "against" killing a fetus or infant...but also directly orders Abraham to murder his own son just to prove his faith and loyalty? What did Abraham's son ever do to not be considered "innocent"?

5. For the strict "life is life" and "all life is sacred" crowd- Does the sacred nature of life extend to Osama Bin Laden? Pol Pot? Saddam Huessein? What about smallpox? If I take antibiotics to kill an infection...will I go to hell? My dog caught a chipmunk the other day...will my big, fluffy, buddy go to hell? Or is it only human life that is included as being "sacred?"

I probably will come up with some more as well...but this is a good start. Anyone who has some answers to these...please respond. From where I'm sitting the pro-life argument(s) look a bit schizophrenic and arbitrary.

Thoughts?
Milo Minderbinder@ymail.com
Face Palmer
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02/15/2012 09:53 AM

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Re: Abortion: A different perspective.
As noone answers and me is bored here are my 2 cts.

1. Why call it irresposible? I dont see that. Life is nice, even when doom is imminent. If I dont give birth to someone because of potential doom, I also neglect the fun part of life to the child.

2. I'm not catholic

3. From a logical point of view, if the mothers life is in danger, both lifes could be lost. So if you could save at least 1, what would you do?

4. Abraham did not kill his son.

5. I'd say only human life is sacred.
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title."

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Milo Minderbinder (OP)

User ID: 7715528
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02/15/2012 10:08 AM
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Re: Abortion: A different perspective.
As noone answers and me is bored here are my 2 cts.

1. Why call it irresposible? I dont see that. Life is nice, even when doom is imminent. If I dont give birth to someone because of potential doom, I also neglect the fun part of life to the child.

2. I'm not catholic

3. From a logical point of view, if the mothers life is in danger, both lifes could be lost. So if you could save at least 1, what would you do?

4. Abraham did not kill his son.

5. I'd say only human life is sacred.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


In what version of the Bible does Abraham not kill his son upon God's request/order? Granted, all Bibles say different things, I'm not saying this is impossible...but all of them I am aware of have Abraham burning his "only begotten son" alive.

Also...are you a Christian of any sort? If so...does your sect believe in Original Sin and baptismal rites? If so, the question might still apply. I just know that the Catholics are real big on those two.
Milo Minderbinder@ymail.com
Face Palmer
Yo mamma pulls catapults to gondor

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02/15/2012 10:19 AM

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Re: Abortion: A different perspective.
In no bible did Abraham kill his son. What different bibles are you refering to?

The story ends this way:

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

I'd call myself a believer, yeah.

Original sin? Hmm I dunno.
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title."

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Milo Minderbinder (OP)

User ID: 7715528
United States
02/15/2012 11:32 AM
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Re: Abortion: A different perspective.
In no bible did Abraham kill his son. What different bibles are you refering to?

The story ends this way:

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

I'd call myself a believer, yeah.

Original sin? Hmm I dunno.
 Quoting: Face Palmer


In all of the "Elohim" translations of the Old Testament it appears as though Abraham went through with it. Furthermore, there are other references to the burning alive of children elsewhere in the Bible.

The "Redacted" translations which are composed of a hodgepodge of different dialects and languages insert the the "..but then Abraham killed a ram instead" parts.

Source Text.

The figure of Abraham is equally revered in Judeo-Christian and Muslim traditions as the common ancestor of the major monotheist faiths. However, modern Biblical scholarship has raised questions about the sources of the sacrifice of Abraham's son. In particular, some modern scholars believe that in one of the original versions of the Biblical story, Abraham may really have sacrificed his son. This is in agreement with other texts asserting the practice of child sacrifice in early Israel. However, later Israelite religion seemingly abandoned the practice of child sacrifice, and this change resulted in the sacrifice story that we are now familiar with. Thus the Qur'anic sacrifice story is the product of a mythological evolution which occurred during the compilation of the Biblical book of Genesis, which contains the sources of the oldest Abraham tales. Furthermore, two other important Qur'anic stories of Abraham, namely that of his arrival at monotheism through star-gazing and that of his divine rescue from being burned alive, may be seen to be the results of a similar mythological evolution which occured in later Biblical times (in particular in the Book of Jubilees' retelling of the Abraham story). The history of the Abraham stories will be seen to have important implications for Qur'anic narrative and view of history.
The story of Abraham's sacrifice as it appears in the Qur'an is known to all Muslims; it is commemorated every year by the animal sacrifices of Eid ul-Azha. The Qur'anic story is given below:

So We gave him (Abraham) tidings of a gentle son. And when he was old enough to walk with him, he said, O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice you. So look, what do you think? He said, Oh my father! Do that which you are commanded. God willing, you will find me of the steadfast. Then, when they had both surrendered and he had flung him down upon his face, We called unto him, O Abraham! You have already fulfilled the vision... Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim. (Qur'an 37:101-107)
Now, let us look at the Biblical sacrifice story. The consensus of modern Biblical scholarship is that the sacrifice story in the Hebrew Bible is composed from a number of different sources. One is the E source (so called because it refers to God by the name Elohim, usually translated simply as "God"), which is given below.
And it was after all these things, and God tested Abraham. And He said to him, 'Abraham'. And he said, 'I'm here�. And He said, 'Take your son, your only one, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah and make him a burnt offering there on one of the mountains that I'll say to you.' And Abraham got up early in the morning and harnessed his ass and took his two young men with him and Isaac, his son. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and he got up and went to the place that God had said to him. On the third day: and Abraham raised his eyes and saw the place from a distance. And Abraham said to his young men, 'Sit here with the ass; and I and the boy: we'll go over there, and we'll bow, and we'll come back to you.' And Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and put it on Isaac, his son, and took the fire and the knife in his hand. And the two of them went together. And Isaac said to Abraham, his father; and he said, 'My father.' And he said, 'I'm here, my son.' And he said, 'Here are the fire and the wood, but where is the sheep for the burnt offering?' And Abraham said, 'God will see to the sheep for the burnt offering, my son.' And the two of them went together. And they came to the place that God had said to him. And Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and he bound Isaac, his son, and put him on the altar on top of the wood. And Abraham put out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. (E, from Genesis 22:1-10)
At this point the Biblical text changes from E to a different source, usually called R or RJE (for Redactor, the source which edits together the E and J sources). It is only at the end of the story that the Biblical text switches back to the E source, which continues as follows:
And He said, 'I swear by me '... that because you did this thing and didn't withhold your son, your only one, that I'll bless you and multiply your seed like the stars of the skies and like the sand that's on the seashore, and your seed will possess its enemies' gate. And all the nations of the earth will be blessed through your seed because you listened to my voice.' And Abraham went back to his young men, and they got up and went together to Beersheba, and Abraham lived in Beersheba.(E, from Genesis 22:15-19)
The above E story is quite remarkable; it seems that in the E version of this story, Abraham really did sacrifice his son. The evidence that Abraham's son was killed is outlined in Richard Elliott Friedman's book, The Bible With Sources Revealed (HarperCollins 2003). Firstly, the whole replacement of Abraham's son by an alternative sacrificial animal is absent from E; It only happens in RJE. Secondly, God says that Abraham "didn't withhold" his son, implying that Isaac was actually killed (in the absence of a ram-replacement narrative). Thirdly, E says that Abraham "went back to his young men"; a phrase which excludes Isaac, who is always mentioned separately. But at the end of the above E narrative there is no mention of Isaac, even though Abraham had said both of them would return ('we'll come back to you'). The image of Abraham going back to his young men (presumably servants or slaves) without Isaac is reinforced by the omission of the previously-used phrase "And the two of them went together"; this explicitly includes both Abraham and his son, but it is missing from the end of the story. Finally, after this story Isaac never appears in the E source again, and in fact God's final words to Abraham in the E passage above seems to establish that Abraham's "seed" was "multiplied" through new children explicitly to replace the loss of Isaac. Abraham's central place in the Bible, as the ancestor of the Israelite nation, is thus seemingly bound up in the offering of Isaac as a child sacrifice.
The above conclusions regarding the original E story are surprising to say the least. However, many modern scholars are inclined to accept the picture it paints of child sacrifice as it agrees with practices mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, for example in the following:

Ahaz... reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. He did not do what was right in the sight of the Lord, as his ancestor David had done, but he... made offerings in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and made his sons pass through fire, according to the abominable practices... (2 Chronicles 28:1-3)
The above passage shows that the narrator of the book of Chronicles probably dates from a later period in Israelite history, by which time child sacrifice has been abandoned as an "abominable practice". A similar later-dated, anti-child sacrifice view may well have been the motivation of the insertion of the following text from the RJE source into midst of the E passages quoted above:
And an angel of Yahweh called to him from the skies and said, 'Abraham! Abraham!' And he said, 'I'm here.' And he said, 'Don't put your hand out toward the boy, and don't do anything to him, because now I know that you fear God, and you didn't withhold your son, your only one, from me.' And Abraham raised his eyes and saw, and here was a ram behind, caught in the thicket by its horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and made it a burnt offering instead of his son. (RJE, from Genesis 22:11-14)

Milo Minderbinder@ymail.com
Face Palmer
Yo mamma pulls catapults to gondor

User ID: 10847822
Germany
02/15/2012 12:01 PM

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Re: Abortion: A different perspective.
In all of the "Elohim" translations of the Old Testament it appears as though Abraham went through with it. Furthermore, there are other references to the burning alive of children elsewhere in the Bible.

The "Redacted" translations which are composed of a hodgepodge of different dialects and languages insert the the "..but then Abraham killed a ram instead" parts.

 Quoting: Milo Minderbinder


Strange, first time I hear this. But thats why I come to GLP :)

Under these circumstamces, your question 4 is valid, but I have yet to make my mind about it.
"The world will soon wake up to the reality that everyone is broke and can collect nothing from the bankrupt, who are owed unlimited amounts by the insolvent, who are attempting to make late payments on a bank holiday in the wrong country, with an unacceptable currency, against defaulted collateral, of which nobody is sure who holds title."

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

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