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MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD

 
Shalhevet

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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
It speaks of the living, not the dead.... After all fear tactics do work on most people.

 Quoting: Shalhevet


For this is what the Lord says about the palace of the king of Judah:


“Though you are like Gilead to me,
like the summit of Lebanon,
I will surely make you like a wasteland,
like towns not inhabited.
7 I will send destroyers against you,
each man with his weapons,
and they will cut up your fine cedar beams
and throw them into the fire.

8 “People from many nations will pass by this city and will ask one another, ‘Why has the Lord done such a thing to this great city?’ 9 And the answer will be: ‘Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord their God and have worshiped and served other gods. ’”


10 Do not weep for the dead king...




^Dead?^


?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051

Other than you need to give book and chapter, what I was referring to is speaking about where or what is beyond life, other than a grave.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



It was an affirmation that fear tactics do work (as you mentioned)...


Jer 22




+
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth seven 1071051


Where are the spiritual ramifications to that? Where is the hell or heaven spoken of? Where does it tell you that you even have an existence after death?
Truth
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05/02/2012 09:57 AM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
what I was referring to is speaking about where or what is beyond life, other than a grave.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



And,

thank you for you response-


Would you agree that this is 'beyond the grave'?...


2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12)



 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051



I do believe in a heaven and hell destination. I also believe that not single soul will be served with unjust punishment on the BIG DAY.
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



Anything in Quran similar to this?...

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven..


..the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face
(Rev 22)

In other words- the 'destination' comes down out of heaven.

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


No sir...nothing like that....
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
What I learned today:

NOT being sarcastic just stating a fact here..

1) Jesus is the body part an arm and word of the spiritual body of GOD as per Christianity thus is part of GOD and is GOd but just not THE GOD....does this mean he is not the son?



2) There is no Hell in Judaism....meaning someone who lives an evil life and commits evil may get away through the services of Dr. Jacob "Jack" Kevorkian ? Judaism states that all evil is sorted out in the present world..meaning what goes around comes around...but what if it doesnt come around what the evil doer escapes and enjoys his/her life here on earth


Please correct me if I said anything wrong above...and again I'm only stating as I understood it....and mean no disrespect...both are interesting concepts.


Peace
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


Describe evil?

coffee4
 Quoting: Shalhevet


Hi Shalhevet,

I have two comments for you unrelated ..so below is 1 for you and I will post another for you separte.

Very cool question here…and before answering this please note I have absolutely no valid qualification to respond but would like to take a shot at it still. LOL
If what I say makes no sense its from me and I take responsibility…blame not my faith nor your GOD nor my GOD as I have simply failed to explain to the best of my abilty.

I recall reading a Islamic and Christian Philosophy paper – it was a comparison of both views, it discussed St. Augustine's understanding of the nature of evil. Augustine believed that evil is "the absence of good." Augustine also believed that God is everywhere, and that everything is wholistically a part of God. YOu know like Jesus being the ARM (No my view ofcourse).

This belief does not give evil its own absolute existence, because as Augistine philosophically reasoned, if evil existed independently, then that God is not everywhere, because where there is evil God would not be present. Another argument is that God is perfect and would not create evil as an independent entity, as that contradict his nature.

There are a couple of things that I will like to point out with respect to Augustine’s view:
First that, his understanding of Christianity may not be very much in agreement with the Biblical teachings, much as Muslim philosophical views of reality may very well not be accordance with the Quranic concepts. So we have my own fellow muslims and other fellow Christians trying to explain and answer your question on what is GOOD or EVIL in terms of their own Phiosphical view and both are not really consistent with t BIBLE nor the QURAN…so its not really a true explanation.....thus everyone has own understanding of it…and this may not be the reality as per the books sent by the Almighty…your trying to fit your philosophy view into the book …but the book says otherwise etc…

Augustine's understanding of evil, and like I said before this is his understanding of it and not necessarily the Biblical perspective of evil.
first, he says that evil is the absence of good and then he says that God which is good is everywhere. Now to examine this philosophically I would say that this argument itself has a lot of loopholes. By saying, evil is the "absence" of good, Augustine is implying that there is such a thing as evil and that it does exist, and that it exists when good is absent. Now what he is saying is

that evil exists and it exists when good is not present. So he is saying that there is such a place which is "not-good" and if it is "not-good" then it is also not-God, meaning that God is not everywhere, or that evil is a part of God, or that evil has an independent existence from God. And then he says, God is perfect and would not create evil as an independent entity, as that would contradict his nature. But that begs to point out, that evil does exist, we encounter it, and where did it come from, if it is not an independent entity does that mean it is part of what exists everywhere, or God? Is God a substratum?


However in my opinion about how evil is explained in Islam. According to my understanding, Islam does not state that everything exists in God, or that God is the substratum of this universe. God is a separate being from us. I believe evil is the result of man's (or jinn's) defiance of God. Man has been given free will by God and also the freedom to act upon it. Now when man chooses to use his freedom to act in a way which is against God, the result of that defiance is what we choose to call evil. Our freedom of action has an impact on those around us and vice versa. If we choose to act in accordance with God's will and the morality he has given to our conscience and through his message, things remain in order. However when we choose to violate the will of God, we create disorder which we may also define as evil. This happens because God has given power to man to produce his own actions, so that the test and judgment of man is truly fair. Such things as disease or disaster, I do not see them within the definition of evil. I think these are trails for mankind. When God creates a disease or disaster, he is actually creating a situation through which men will truly come forth with their abilities and weakness. It is around these situations that we see greatest saviors and scientists working for the good of mankind and similarly in such situations people exploit those who can least defend themselves and treat them with scorn and hostility. I recall people in Asia suffered through a very huge Earthquake a while back…and guess what…ironically the many rich landlords decided to raise the rent …..lo

You may also want to read the Quran and analyse for yourself what it has to say about the matter.

Again, if I failed to explain properly its on me….and not on ISLAM and not on the creator who created us both
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
...


For this is what the Lord says about the palace of the king of Judah:


“Though you are like Gilead to me,
like the summit of Lebanon,
I will surely make you like a wasteland,
like towns not inhabited.
7 I will send destroyers against you,
each man with his weapons,
and they will cut up your fine cedar beams
and throw them into the fire.

8 “People from many nations will pass by this city and will ask one another, ‘Why has the Lord done such a thing to this great city?’ 9 And the answer will be: ‘Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord their God and have worshiped and served other gods. ’”


10 Do not weep for the dead king...




^Dead?^


?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051

Other than you need to give book and chapter, what I was referring to is speaking about where or what is beyond life, other than a grave.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



It was an affirmation that fear tactics do work (as you mentioned)...


Jer 22




+
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth seven 1071051


Where are the spiritual ramifications to that?
 Quoting: Shalhevet




Here:

27But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return. (Jer 22)




+
Truth
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05/02/2012 10:05 AM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
...


For this is what the Lord says about the palace of the king of Judah:


“Though you are like Gilead to me,
like the summit of Lebanon,
I will surely make you like a wasteland,
like towns not inhabited.
7 I will send destroyers against you,
each man with his weapons,
and they will cut up your fine cedar beams
and throw them into the fire.

8 “People from many nations will pass by this city and will ask one another, ‘Why has the Lord done such a thing to this great city?’ 9 And the answer will be: ‘Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord their God and have worshiped and served other gods. ’”


10 Do not weep for the dead king...




^Dead?^


?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051

Other than you need to give book and chapter, what I was referring to is speaking about where or what is beyond life, other than a grave.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



It was an affirmation that fear tactics do work (as you mentioned)...


Jer 22




+
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth seven 1071051


Where are the spiritual ramifications to that? Where is the hell or heaven spoken of? Where does it tell you that you even have an existence after death?
 Quoting: Shalhevet



I understand this question is for Br. Daniel...but would like permission to tackle and respond ...? May I?
Truth
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05/02/2012 10:16 AM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
For anyone who wishes to answer this.


What would happen to a person who is isolated from the world as we live in. He has/she has no exposure to anything i.e. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and whatever else etc.

This person lives in the Amazon away from what we call the developed world.

What do you all think will happen to this person?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



I think too that you would have to keep in mind what HaShem considers sin. First off the 613 command are for Israel, not the gentiles. The gentiles have only 7 laws and they are pretty general in that most are kept without any thought of doing so. But it would also come down to what sin is.

 Quoting: Shalhevet


Hi Shalhevet

As per earlier comment...here is my 2 comment to you. with much peace...

Something in the above respond you gave didnt sit right with me. I was meaning to bring it up yesterday but totally forgot and had no time...until i remembered again today.

My question is with no disrespect but asking to better understand your faith.

Above you state that 613 commands are for Israel only and the Gentiles have only 7 commands only.

this does not sit right with me...because as follows:

1) I find it unfair that Israel has to have all these Commands to follow while the Gentiles only 7? why?
and what exactly do you mean when you say ISRAEL? who is defined as ISRAEL?

2) Does this also mean that since Israel has 613 Commands that they also have more rights in every day affairs then others meaning Gentiles? so you have more rights and Gentiles have less?

3) If i choose to convert to Judaism why would not all 613 commands apply to me too? Why would i get off easy with just 7?

Why such differentiations?

Thank you
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
I believe evil is the result of man's (or jinn's) defiance of God. Man has been given free will by God and also the freedom to act upon it. Now when man chooses to use his freedom to act in a way which is against God, the result of that defiance is what we choose to call evil.
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



The Apocryphon of John may give you more insight into your belief...


more reading for you... [link to www.gnosis.org]





}{
Shalhevet

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05/02/2012 10:21 AM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
what I was referring to is speaking about where or what is beyond life, other than a grave.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



And,

thank you for you response-


Would you agree that this is 'beyond the grave'?...


2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12)




/\
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


2. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.

Dan 12:2 is talking about the bodies being resurrected with either the "pure" or "stained" souls in them. It is not talking about everlasting contempt in hell. Again there is no Hebrew word for hell in the Tanach.

Notice it says "many" and not all. Also there is no indication that they will arise in a spiritual form, unless you want to say the spirits are still in the body when they are in the grave.


coffee4
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
what I was referring to is speaking about where or what is beyond life, other than a grave.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



And,

thank you for you response-


Would you agree that this is 'beyond the grave'?...


2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12)




/\
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051




It is not talking about everlasting contempt in hell.
 Quoting: Shalhevet





Fair enough-

Where will they be for their everlasting shame and contempt?



?
Shalhevet

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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Describe evil?

coffee4
 Quoting: Shalhevet


Hi Shalhevet,

I have two comments for you unrelated ..so below is 1 for you and I will post another for you separte.

Very cool question here…and before answering this please note I have absolutely no valid qualification to respond but would like to take a shot at it still. LOL
If what I say makes no sense its from me and I take responsibility…blame not my faith nor your GOD nor my GOD as I have simply failed to explain to the best of my abilty.

I recall reading a Islamic and Christian Philosophy paper – it was a comparison of both views, it discussed St. Augustine's understanding of the nature of evil. Augustine believed that evil is "the absence of good." Augustine also believed that God is everywhere, and that everything is wholistically a part of God. YOu know like Jesus being the ARM (No my view ofcourse).

This belief does not give evil its own absolute existence, because as Augistine philosophically reasoned, if evil existed independently, then that God is not everywhere, because where there is evil God would not be present. Another argument is that God is perfect and would not create evil as an independent entity, as that contradict his nature.

There are a couple of things that I will like to point out with respect to Augustine’s view:
First that, his understanding of Christianity may not be very much in agreement with the Biblical teachings, much as Muslim philosophical views of reality may very well not be accordance with the Quranic concepts. So we have my own fellow muslims and other fellow Christians trying to explain and answer your question on what is GOOD or EVIL in terms of their own Phiosphical view and both are not really consistent with t BIBLE nor the QURAN…so its not really a true explanation.....thus everyone has own understanding of it…and this may not be the reality as per the books sent by the Almighty…your trying to fit your philosophy view into the book …but the book says otherwise etc…

Augustine's understanding of evil, and like I said before this is his understanding of it and not necessarily the Biblical perspective of evil.
first, he says that evil is the absence of good and then he says that God which is good is everywhere. Now to examine this philosophically I would say that this argument itself has a lot of loopholes. By saying, evil is the "absence" of good, Augustine is implying that there is such a thing as evil and that it does exist, and that it exists when good is absent. Now what he is saying is

that evil exists and it exists when good is not present. So he is saying that there is such a place which is "not-good" and if it is "not-good" then it is also not-God, meaning that God is not everywhere, or that evil is a part of God, or that evil has an independent existence from God. And then he says, God is perfect and would not create evil as an independent entity, as that would contradict his nature. But that begs to point out, that evil does exist, we encounter it, and where did it come from, if it is not an independent entity does that mean it is part of what exists everywhere, or God? Is God a substratum?


However in my opinion about how evil is explained in Islam. According to my understanding, Islam does not state that everything exists in God, or that God is the substratum of this universe. God is a separate being from us. I believe evil is the result of man's (or jinn's) defiance of God. Man has been given free will by God and also the freedom to act upon it. Now when man chooses to use his freedom to act in a way which is against God, the result of that defiance is what we choose to call evil. Our freedom of action has an impact on those around us and vice versa. If we choose to act in accordance with God's will and the morality he has given to our conscience and through his message, things remain in order. However when we choose to violate the will of God, we create disorder which we may also define as evil. This happens because God has given power to man to produce his own actions, so that the test and judgment of man is truly fair. Such things as disease or disaster, I do not see them within the definition of evil. I think these are trails for mankind. When God creates a disease or disaster, he is actually creating a situation through which men will truly come forth with their abilities and weakness. It is around these situations that we see greatest saviors and scientists working for the good of mankind and similarly in such situations people exploit those who can least defend themselves and treat them with scorn and hostility. I recall people in Asia suffered through a very huge Earthquake a while back…and guess what…ironically the many rich landlords decided to raise the rent …..lo

You may also want to read the Quran and analyse for yourself what it has to say about the matter.

Again, if I failed to explain properly its on me….and not on ISLAM and not on the creator who created us both
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


Thank you. Your understanding is very interesting and well said. Hope you can understand what I say just as clearly. My mind tends to jump ahead of my fingers and things tend to get chopped up or not said clearly.

As for the first part of St. Augustine's understanding of the nature of evil, there is definitely one part that is wrong.... ", God is perfect and would not create evil as an independent entity, as that would contradict his nature".
The scriptures tell us different. Isa 45:7 Deut 30:15


Isa 45:7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

Deut. 30:15 15. Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,


As for any defiance of G_d being evil, I would question that. We have the 3 levels of sin, one is worse than the other. So would there be different levels of evil also?

In the verses of Jer. that I have given we have HaShem telling us that if we repent of our evil ways he forgives us and we live. This is speaking of a physical existence not as spiritual one.

Another question would be does our spirit/soul sin or is it just the body? If our spirit/soul, which comes from G_d or is a part of G_d, sins; would that mean that G_d sins? My own belief is that the soul can not sin. It is not the brain or the body. Is it the conscious or subconscious? Consciousness is awareness, but does it have control over what we do?


Working on deep thoughts here.
coffee4
Shalhevet

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05/02/2012 10:58 AM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
what I was referring to is speaking about where or what is beyond life, other than a grave.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



And,

thank you for you response-


Would you agree that this is 'beyond the grave'?...


2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12)




/\
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051




It is not talking about everlasting contempt in hell.
 Quoting: Shalhevet





Fair enough-

Where will they be for their everlasting shame and contempt?



?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Not sure. Some say the resurrection is here on earth. Some say they believe that it means that the soul will be reborn into physical bodies as an infant and grow, but never grow old and living forever. Those who have to live with everlasting contempt will die as we do and then resurrect never to reach the spiritual plane that keeps them alive forever.

Who know?

But let me ask you this. If a person dies and goes to hell or heaven. Then their spirit is already out of the body. What do they resurrect to?
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Describe evil?

coffee4
 Quoting: Shalhevet

 Quoting: Truth 1307494


Thank you. Your understanding is very interesting and well said. Hope you can understand what I say just as clearly. My mind tends to jump ahead of my fingers and things tend to get chopped up or not said clearly.

As for the first part of St. Augustine's understanding of the nature of evil, there is definitely one part that is wrong.... ", God is perfect and would not create evil as an independent entity, as that would contradict his nature".
The scriptures tell us different. Isa 45:7 Deut 30:15


Isa 45:7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

Deut. 30:15 15. Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,


As for any defiance of G_d being evil, I would question that. We have the 3 levels of sin, one is worse than the other. So would there be different levels of evil also?

In the verses of Jer. that I have given we have HaShem telling us that if we repent of our evil ways he forgives us and we live. This is speaking of a physical existence not as spiritual one.

Another question would be does our spirit/soul sin or is it just the body? If our spirit/soul, which comes from G_d or is a part of G_d, sins; would that mean that G_d sins? My own belief is that the soul can not sin. It is not the brain or the body. Is it the conscious or subconscious? Consciousness is awareness, but does it have control over what we do?

Working on deep thoughts here.
coffee4
 Quoting: Shalhevet



Yes, I can understand your viewpoint...thank you.

I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...but it can get tarnished do-moralized with the sins...so is impacted from them...i.e someone not taking care of themselve would feel an impact on health etc....

A bright light aura around a child....as he/she grows and sees the world and perhaps falls in sin or what not...that light aura its brightness diminishes slowly and slowly.

Its like we are harming ourselves internally and just not know it. Its that FREE WILL of ours and others "JIN" aka demon or Satan....its that free will.

In my own opinion am in agreement with you though the soul does not sin.

If our spirit/soul, which comes from G_d or is a part of G_d, sins; would that mean that G_d sins?

Yes it comes from GOD with ability to find him, seek knowledge, have free will etc... We are his creations..not him..nor part him in that sense as some believe..but our sins are due to our own choice...Had GOD wanted we could've been like Angles who have no free will and just follow the command. Our sins do not mean GOD sins...if God wanted we'd have no disagreements, no wars etc... but this place is a testing ground.

Is it the conscious or subconscious? Consciousness is awareness, but does it have control over what we do? I think Consciousness can be controlled...while the Subconscious needs much practice in control...more difficult

As you know the Ads are hit towards our Subconscious for the latest 50% off deals...they know we lack control on that front.....Meaning they feel they can hit and control somewhat...meaning it is possible to control. Prayer, devotion, awarness of GOD ...are just a few forms of practice

I'm not sure if the same belief is in your faith...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord that he be granted time to prove that Mankind is of no good and that he will lead them astray. The Lord gave him respite till the end of time...and stated that He will not be able to lead the good believers astray. He created us...and knows that we are capable of much evil...but at the same time are capable of soo much good.

Peace
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
...



And,

thank you for you response-


Would you agree that this is 'beyond the grave'?...


2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12)




/\
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051




It is not talking about everlasting contempt in hell.
 Quoting: Shalhevet





Fair enough-

Where will they be for their everlasting shame and contempt?



?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Not sure. Some say the resurrection is here on earth. Some say they believe that it means that the soul will be reborn into physical bodies as an infant and grow, but never grow old and living forever. Those who have to live with everlasting contempt will die as we do and then resurrect never to reach the spiritual plane that keeps them alive forever.

Who know?

But let me ask you this. If a person dies and goes to hell or heaven. Then their spirit is already out of the body. What do they resurrect to?
 Quoting: Shalhevet




Two verses come to mind:

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

(John 20)



and,


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1 Cor 15)




^^
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...


...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord ...
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



Please excuse another interruption-

Satan is a spirit- he sins - correct?

Therefore,

wouldn't those under his influence have a spirit that sins?



Understand?



?
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...


...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord ...
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



Please excuse another interruption-

Satan is a spirit- he sins - correct?

Therefore,

wouldn't those under his influence have a spirit that sins?

Understand?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


In Islam we are made aware of two beings...1) Humans and 2) Demons.

Demons are made of fire
and Man made of Clay

They see us --- we see them not....think of the movies exorcist etc.... Some are based on real events....

Anway...Satan was a good demon per Islam...and not just a spirit...Demons have free will like you and me...They too have tribes, communitties, beliefs etc..

Thus he was not just a spirit....

Peace
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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05/02/2012 12:02 PM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...


...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord ...
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



Please excuse another interruption-

Satan is a spirit- he sins - correct?

Therefore,

wouldn't those under his influence have a spirit that sins?

Understand?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


In Islam we are made aware of two beings...1) Humans and 2) Demons.

Demons are made of fire
and Man made of Clay

They see us --- we see them not....think of the movies exorcist etc.... Some are based on real events....

Anway...Satan was a good demon per Islam...and not just a spirit...Demons have free will like you and me...They too have tribes, communitties, beliefs etc..

Thus he was not just a spirit....

Peace
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


clappa
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...


...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord ...
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



Please excuse another interruption-

Satan is a spirit- he sins - correct?

Therefore,

wouldn't those under his influence have a spirit that sins?

Understand?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


In Islam we are made aware of two beings...1) Humans and 2) Demons.

Demons are made of fire
and Man made of Clay



Thus he was not just a spirit....


 Quoting: Truth 1307494


Thank you- just trying to confirm our understanding-

Islam- Two beings: Human and Demon

Christianity- Two beings: Human and Spirit (Spirit can be good or bad and influencing human to be good or bad)...



43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.




^^
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...


...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord ...
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



Please excuse another interruption-

Satan is a spirit- he sins - correct?

Therefore,

wouldn't those under his influence have a spirit that sins?

Understand?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


In Islam we are made aware of two beings...
1) Humans
2) Demons

Demons are made of fire and Man made of Clay

They see us --- we see them not....think of the movies exorcist etc.... Some are based on real events....

Anway...Satan was a good demon per Islam...and not just a spirit...Demons have free will like you and me...They too have tribes, communitties, beliefs etc..

Thus he was not just a spirit....

Peace
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



1) Satan was good...until he disobeyed the command...and challanged the Lord.

“Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam.” they bowed down except Iblis He was one of the Jinns.” [Al-Quran 18:50]


Allah also says: “Satan promises you destitution and enjoins on you to be sinful. But Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 268]
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Just curious -

There is no such creation as Demons in Christianity?
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Just curious -

There is no such creation as Demons in Christianity?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494





Evil spirit= demon




><
Truth
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05/02/2012 12:23 PM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Just curious -

There is no such creation as Demons in Christianity?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494





Evil spirit= demon




><
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Great

Well Demons or in ARABIC "JINN" have different foods, different capabilities etc. They are made of Smokeless fire and see us but we see them now.

They have communities like us...etc. etc.
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
“Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam.” they bowed down except Iblis He was one of the Jinns.” [Al-Quran 18:50]



 Quoting: Truth 1307494




"And in that moment the rest of the powers became jealous, because he had come into being through all of them and they had given their power to the man, and his intelligence was greater than that of those who had made him, and greater than that of the chief archon. And when they recognized that he was luminous, and that he could think better than they, and that he was free from wickedness...
[link to www.gnosis.org]





+
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Just curious -

There is no such creation as Demons in Christianity?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494





Evil spirit= demon




 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Great

Well Demons or in ARABIC "JINN" have different foods, ...
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



^That's^ for sure...lol

[link to www.washingtonpost.com]




][
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Just curious -

There is no such creation as Demons in Christianity?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


Evil spirit= demon
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


Great

Well Demons or in ARABIC "JINN" have different foods, ...
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



^That's^ for sure...lol

[link to www.washingtonpost.com]

][
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


LOL....

In certain parts of the world...you hear stories of black-magic, voodoo or offering of bones...chanting around a fire...calling certain someone etc...witchcraft sorcery..

Perhaps these to many are myth or laughing matter...
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Shalhevet,

Can you confirm if I have this right -

You do not believe in heaven or hell as per your faith - which then can lead you to not believe in life after death etc..?

So your saying all we have is this life and thats it.

Do I have this right/
Shalhevet

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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
For anyone who wishes to answer this.


What would happen to a person who is isolated from the world as we live in. He has/she has no exposure to anything i.e. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and whatever else etc.

This person lives in the Amazon away from what we call the developed world.

What do you all think will happen to this person?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



I think too that you would have to keep in mind what HaShem considers sin. First off the 613 command are for Israel, not the gentiles. The gentiles have only 7 laws and they are pretty general in that most are kept without any thought of doing so. But it would also come down to what sin is.

 Quoting: Shalhevet


Hi Shalhevet

As per earlier comment...here is my 2 comment to you. with much peace...

Something in the above respond you gave didnt sit right with me. I was meaning to bring it up yesterday but totally forgot and had no time...until i remembered again today.

My question is with no disrespect but asking to better understand your faith.

Above you state that 613 commands are for Israel only and the Gentiles have only 7 commands only.

this does not sit right with me...because as follows:

1) I find it unfair that Israel has to have all these Commands to follow while the Gentiles only 7? why?
and what exactly do you mean when you say ISRAEL? who is defined as ISRAEL?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


First to establish that HaShem made his covenant with Israel, not the gentiles. First off the law was given on Mt. Sinai after Israel left Egypt.

Exodus 19:3
3. Moses ascended to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "So shall you say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel,

4. You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles' wings, and I brought you to Me.

5. And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.

6. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."

Exodus 20:1-2 1.
1. God spoke all these words, to respond:
2. "I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


At this point in time HaShem is speaking to those who came out of Egypt. Yes, it was mixed company but all that accepted the law given at Sinai were considered Israel.


2) Does this also mean that since Israel has 613 Commands that they also have more rights in every day affairs then others meaning Gentiles? so you have more rights and Gentiles have less?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


No, just more responsibilities.

6. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."

3) If i choose to convert to Judaism why would not all 613 commands apply to me too? Why would i get off easy with just 7?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


If you were to convert to Judaism you would be responsible to obey the same laws that Israel is. You could not obey all because some of those laws are for women others for the priesthood. But at conversion you would be considered a J.ew and would be required to fulfill the laws as best you can.

I think I covered it. Let me know if there is anything I missed.
indy
Shalhevet

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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Yes, I can understand your viewpoint...thank you.

I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...but it can get tarnished do-moralized with the sins...so is impacted from them...i.e someone not taking care of themselve would feel an impact on health etc....

A bright light aura around a child....as he/she grows and sees the world and perhaps falls in sin or what not...that light aura its brightness diminishes slowly and slowly.

Its like we are harming ourselves internally and just not know it. Its that FREE WILL of ours and others "JIN" aka demon or Satan....its that free will.

In my own opinion am in agreement with you though the soul does not sin.

If our spirit/soul, which comes from G_d or is a part of G_d, sins; would that mean that G_d sins?

Yes it comes from GOD with ability to find him, seek knowledge, have free will etc... We are his creations..not him..nor part him in that sense as some believe..but our sins are due to our own choice...Had GOD wanted we could've been like Angles who have no free will and just follow the command. Our sins do not mean GOD sins...if God wanted we'd have no disagreements, no wars etc... but this place is a testing ground.

Is it the conscious or subconscious? Consciousness is awareness, but does it have control over what we do? I think Consciousness can be controlled...while the Subconscious needs much practice in control...more difficult

As you know the Ads are hit towards our Subconscious for the latest 50% off deals...they know we lack control on that front.....Meaning they feel they can hit and control somewhat...meaning it is possible to control. Prayer, devotion, awarness of GOD ...are just a few forms of practice

I'm not sure if the same belief is in your faith...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord that he be granted time to prove that Mankind is of no good and that he will lead them astray. The Lord gave him respite till the end of time...and stated that He will not be able to lead the good believers astray. He created us...and knows that we are capable of much evil...but at the same time are capable of soo much good.

Peace
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


Very good... You sound as if you are familiar with Kabbalah.
Shalhevet

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05/02/2012 03:14 PM
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
1) Satan was good...until he disobeyed the command...and challanged the Lord.

“Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam.” they bowed down except Iblis He was one of the Jinns.” [Al-Quran 18:50]


Allah also says: “Satan promises you destitution and enjoins on you to be sinful. But Allah promises you forgiveness from Himself and abundance.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 268]
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


This is something that I'm not aware of.. But I have heard different stories of the beginning so I won't say it never happened.
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
For anyone who wishes to answer this.


What would happen to a person who is isolated from the world as we live in. He has/she has no exposure to anything i.e. Judaism, Christianity, Islam and whatever else etc.

This person lives in the Amazon away from what we call the developed world.

What do you all think will happen to this person?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494



I think too that you would have to keep in mind what HaShem considers sin. First off the 613 command are for Israel, not the gentiles. The gentiles have only 7 laws and they are pretty general in that most are kept without any thought of doing so. But it would also come down to what sin is.

 Quoting: Shalhevet


Hi Shalhevet

As per earlier comment...here is my 2 comment to you. with much peace...

Something in the above respond you gave didnt sit right with me. I was meaning to bring it up yesterday but totally forgot and had no time...until i remembered again today.

My question is with no disrespect but asking to better understand your faith.

Above you state that 613 commands are for Israel only and the Gentiles have only 7 commands only.

this does not sit right with me...because as follows:

1) I find it unfair that Israel has to have all these Commands to follow while the Gentiles only 7? why?
and what exactly do you mean when you say ISRAEL? who is defined as ISRAEL?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


First to establish that HaShem made his covenant with Israel, not the gentiles. First off the law was given on Mt. Sinai after Israel left Egypt.

Exodus 19:3
3. Moses ascended to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "So shall you say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel,

4. You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles' wings, and I brought you to Me.

5. And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.

6. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."

Exodus 20:1-2 1.
1. God spoke all these words, to respond:
2. "I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.


At this point in time HaShem is speaking to those who came out of Egypt. Yes, it was mixed company but all that accepted the law given at Sinai were considered Israel.


2) Does this also mean that since Israel has 613 Commands that they also have more rights in every day affairs then others meaning Gentiles? so you have more rights and Gentiles have less?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


No, just more responsibilities.

6. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."

3) If i choose to convert to Judaism why would not all 613 commands apply to me too? Why would i get off easy with just 7?
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


If you were to convert to Judaism you would be responsible to obey the same laws that Israel is. You could not obey all because some of those laws are for women others for the priesthood. But at conversion you would be considered a J.ew and would be required to fulfill the laws as best you can.

I think I covered it. Let me know if there is anything I missed.
indy
 Quoting: Shalhevet


Okay - I got it...I may have misunderstood the entire matter. Thank you for the Clarification.

If you don't mind --- i have another question :)

If the Lord saved the jewish people from the Phorah of egypt and made a contract with the jewish people...that should they breach the terms of the contract with GOD ....what was to be the outcome?
Truth
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Re: MUSLIMS ONLY WORSHIP ONE GOD: GOD OF ADAM,ABRAHAM,MOSES,DAVID,SOLOMON,JESUS AND MOHAMMAD
Yes, I can understand your viewpoint...thank you.

I dont believe our spirit or soul sins...but it can get tarnished do-moralized with the sins...so is impacted from them...i.e someone not taking care of themselve would feel an impact on health etc....

A bright light aura around a child....as he/she grows and sees the world and perhaps falls in sin or what not...that light aura its brightness diminishes slowly and slowly.

Its like we are harming ourselves internally and just not know it. Its that FREE WILL of ours and others "JIN" aka demon or Satan....its that free will.

In my own opinion am in agreement with you though the soul does not sin.

If our spirit/soul, which comes from G_d or is a part of G_d, sins; would that mean that G_d sins?

Yes it comes from GOD with ability to find him, seek knowledge, have free will etc... We are his creations..not him..nor part him in that sense as some believe..but our sins are due to our own choice...Had GOD wanted we could've been like Angles who have no free will and just follow the command. Our sins do not mean GOD sins...if God wanted we'd have no disagreements, no wars etc... but this place is a testing ground.

Is it the conscious or subconscious? Consciousness is awareness, but does it have control over what we do? I think Consciousness can be controlled...while the Subconscious needs much practice in control...more difficult

As you know the Ads are hit towards our Subconscious for the latest 50% off deals...they know we lack control on that front.....Meaning they feel they can hit and control somewhat...meaning it is possible to control. Prayer, devotion, awarness of GOD ...are just a few forms of practice

I'm not sure if the same belief is in your faith...but In Islam...its believed that Satan aka "IBLIS" was once a good god fearing demon aka "JINN". It was his defiance to the command to bow to ADAM that got him barred.

And thus he challenged the lord that he be granted time to prove that Mankind is of no good and that he will lead them astray. The Lord gave him respite till the end of time...and stated that He will not be able to lead the good believers astray. He created us...and knows that we are capable of much evil...but at the same time are capable of soo much good.

Peace
 Quoting: Truth 1307494


Very good... You sound as if you are familiar with Kabbalah.
 Quoting: Shalhevet



I don't know what that is? Well i know Madonna is a follower of that faith...but thats it :)

I only speak of or through ISLAM. But if I make any error its on me... not my faith

Peace

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