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PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON

 
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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04/17/2012 07:23 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of *him*

LETS LOOK UP "BEGAT" STRONG'S CONCORDANCE

a) to engender
c) of God making Christ his son



so him that begat is no other than "GOD THE FATHER"

and he who is begotten[jesus] of him [the father]



**I REST MY CASE**
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I will simply say this.....Why do you need a dictionary and in fact language to understand what a creator is trying to convey. Why do you need a man's clarification of what a word means for you to understand the creator. If he were truly divine, every man should be born of the ability to understand (even if minimally) the language of the region they were born in. But no, that isnt the case. Instead, they arent able to understand without the society first telling them what a word or string of words mean. And then they pick up the bible and think they know something? What a joke!

People are seriously wasting their time reading and trying to understand what a supposed"god" or what I like to call an impostor, is saying. I very much even doubt god is the name of the creator.
 Quoting: Ohwell


There are those who need to have this broken down to the basics.Next you are right! The father has A NAME Eh'Yeh
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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04/17/2012 09:34 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
You are wrong. Jesus is/was GOD come in the flesh.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Sprit: and these three are one.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14554579




Were Jesus' prayers answered?...


...for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one[/b
]: (Joh 17)



 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


"All be one" is not what you think at all. it means "of like mind"

It is the indwelling of the Spirit and your crucifying your sins on the cross that eventually makes you one with God if you are fully obedient
because you are now doing only His will and not the will of your own carnal spirit.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



Thank you for your response.

Just to clarify-

Are you saying that Jesus was not God the Father but that He is one with God because of His obedience?







?
Buddaroll

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04/17/2012 11:05 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
You are wrong. Jesus is/was GOD come in the flesh.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Sprit: and these three are one.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14554579




Were Jesus' prayers answered?...


...for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one[/b
]: (Joh 17)



 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


"All be one" is not what you think at all. it means "of like mind"

It is the indwelling of the Spirit and your crucifying your sins on the cross that eventually makes you one with God if you are fully obedient
because you are now doing only His will and not the will of your own carnal spirit.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



Thank you for your response.

Just to clarify-

Are you saying that Jesus was not God the Father but that He is one with God because of His obedience?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I am saying that "Jesus" (to be honest, I prefer Messiah because of how the name Jesus came to be makes me uncomfortable) is not God, "Jesus" lived fully the will of God. So in a way yes. He is One with the Father in that God worked through him fully. He fully knew and lived the mind and will of God.

If Messiah had been God, he would not have had to have been baptized in water nor would He have had to receive the Holy Spirit, would he?

He is the Son. He is the Son in that He came in the flesh, but did not live by the flesh.

He fully lived the will of God because he subdued his carnal spirit, the spirit of man, and instead lived as God instructed Him to via the Holy Spirit.

This is why he says to the apostles to wait to receive the Holy spirit and that they will do many of the same things He did and even greater because it will be God and the Holy Spirit working through them as well.

Messiah came to teach us by example he showed that we can lead a life free from sin but in order to do so we must believe Him (not believe "in" or worship) and His teachings.

You do not know the Father by Worshiping messiah; You come to the Father through Messiah by living the way Messiah taught us to.

He teaches that upon submitting to God, we can receive the Holy Spirit and through the Holy Spirit we will be shown the errors of our ways over time allowing us to repent each one, crucify it and replace that part of our carnal spirit with more of the Holy Spirit. Only when we are living by only the Holy Spirit and have crucified (suppressed) our carnal Spirit can we find salvation and live in the Kingdom of God as a son of God both here and now (hence him saying "this generation) and in the New Jerusalem. It is a choice we need to make every time we we are tempted by our carnal nature and each time you put a sin aside and instead live by his will, that sin of the carnal nature weakens it's hold on us. This is what He means by taking up our own cross.

Don't you see that that is what the New Jerusalem is? It is the freedom of living in the Spirit. Freedom from sin. Freedom of the fear of making the wrong choices, Freedom from the despair caused by the repercussions of sinful actions. The more you sin, the more sin comes to you and the inverse is true as well. The more you put aside your carnal nature and are obedient to Him, the less hold that carnality has on you.

Asking Messiah, God or the Spirit into your heart is NOT your salvation. Messiah came to give us HOPE of salvation and showed us how. It is an ongoing process that He has written a syllabubs out for you and each person will learn what he needs as he needs it directly from Him when you fully submit and ask God to take control and show you the way rather than my living in "the world" and being driven by your own carnal spirit which has selfish wants and needs.


Messiah removed the middleman. He removed the Pharisees, the Pastors and the priests and brought us closer to the relationship we had with God before Moses and gave us the hope and showed us how we can repair the personal relationship that Adam and Eve had with Him before they fell, the state we were created to live in. He came to give us the hope and the way to attain a full and personal relationship with God that transcends yet fulfills scripture. He tells us how to reunite with our Father because each of us is the prodigal son.
Anonymous Coward
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04/17/2012 11:09 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
[link to christiandefense.org]

OP article will help you understand
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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04/17/2012 11:19 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
...




Were Jesus' prayers answered?...


...for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one[/b
]: (Joh 17)



 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


"All be one" is not what you think at all. it means "of like mind"

It is the indwelling of the Spirit and your crucifying your sins on the cross that eventually makes you one with God if you are fully obedient
because you are now doing only His will and not the will of your own carnal spirit.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



Thank you for your response.

Just to clarify-

Are you saying that Jesus was not God the Father but that He is one with God because of His obedience?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I am saying that "Jesus" (to be honest, I prefer Messiah because of how the name Jesus came to be makes me uncomfortable) is not God, "Jesus" lived fully the will of God. So in a way yes. He is One with the Father in that God worked through him fully. He fully knew and lived the mind and will of God.

If Messiah had been God, he would not have had to have been baptized in water nor would He have had to receive the Holy Spirit, would he?

He is the Son. He is the Son in that He came in the flesh, but did not live by the flesh.

He fully lived the will of God because he subdued his carnal spirit, the spirit of man, and instead lived as God instructed Him to via the Holy Spirit.

...
 Quoting: Buddaroll



So,

Why did you assume that we did not agree?



?
Buddaroll

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04/17/2012 11:41 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
...


"All be one" is not what you think at all. it means "of like mind"

It is the indwelling of the Spirit and your crucifying your sins on the cross that eventually makes you one with God if you are fully obedient because you are now doing only His will and not the will of your own carnal spirit.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



Thank you for your response.

Just to clarify-

Are you saying that Jesus was not God the Father but that He is one with God because of His obedience?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I am saying that "Jesus" (to be honest, I prefer Messiah because of how the name Jesus came to be makes me uncomfortable) is not God, "Jesus" lived fully the will of God. So in a way yes. He is One with the Father in that God worked through him fully. He fully knew and lived the mind and will of God.

If Messiah had been God, he would not have had to have been baptized in water nor would He have had to receive the Holy Spirit, would he?

He is the Son. He is the Son in that He came in the flesh, but did not live by the flesh.

He fully lived the will of God because he subdued his carnal spirit, the spirit of man, and instead lived as God instructed Him to via the Holy Spirit.

...
 Quoting: Buddaroll



So,

Why did you assume that we did not agree?



?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I did not.

I felt called to expand on it.
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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04/17/2012 11:46 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
...



Thank you for your response.

Just to clarify-

Are you saying that Jesus was not God the Father but that He is one with God because of His obedience?

?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I am saying that "Jesus" (to be honest, I prefer Messiah because of how the name Jesus came to be makes me uncomfortable) is not God, "Jesus" lived fully the will of God. So in a way yes. He is One with the Father in that God worked through him fully. He fully knew and lived the mind and will of God.

If Messiah had been God, he would not have had to have been baptized in water nor would He have had to receive the Holy Spirit, would he?

He is the Son. He is the Son in that He came in the flesh, but did not live by the flesh.

He fully lived the will of God because he subdued his carnal spirit, the spirit of man, and instead lived as God instructed Him to via the Holy Spirit.

...
 Quoting: Buddaroll



So,

Why did you assume that we did not agree?



?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I did not.

I felt called to expand on it.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



This was intended for other posters?...

"All be one" is not what you think at all.'


Ok



}{
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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04/17/2012 11:57 AM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Don't you see that that is what the New Jerusalem is? It is the freedom of living in the Spirit. Freedom from sin. Freedom of the fear of making the wrong choices, Freedom from the despair caused by the repercussions of sinful actions.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



^This is an interesting interpretation^.

So do you disagree that it is a 'city'?...

Revelation 3:12
... the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem


And how do you reconcile your interpretation with this verse:

Daniel 9:25
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.






?
Buddaroll

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04/17/2012 12:08 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
...


I am saying that "Jesus" (to be honest, I prefer Messiah because of how the name Jesus came to be makes me uncomfortable) is not God, "Jesus" lived fully the will of God. So in a way yes. He is One with the Father in that God worked through him fully. He fully knew and lived the mind and will of God.

If Messiah had been God, he would not have had to have been baptized in water nor would He have had to receive the Holy Spirit, would he?

He is the Son. He is the Son in that He came in the flesh, but did not live by the flesh.

He fully lived the will of God because he subdued his carnal spirit, the spirit of man, and instead lived as God instructed Him to via the Holy Spirit.

...
 Quoting: Buddaroll



So,

Why did you assume that we did not agree?



?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I did not.

I felt called to expand on it.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



This was intended for other posters?...

"All be one" is not what you think at all.'


Ok



}{
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I agree it is because of obedience but that is only part of it.

Obedience has such a negative connotation as well, hence the elaboration.

Messiah is NOT God, He is the Son of God.
He did not ask us to worship Him, He asks that we believe Him and follow His teachings because His teachings are God's teachings because He and the Father are one.
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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04/17/2012 12:15 PM
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...



So,

Why did you assume that we did not agree?



?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


I did not.

I felt called to expand on it.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



This was intended for other posters?...

"All be one" is not what you think at all.'




 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051




Messiah is NOT God, He is the Son of God.
He did not ask us to worship Him, He asks that we believe Him and follow His teachings because His teachings are God's teachings because He and the Father are one.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



yer preachin to the choir...




}{
Buddaroll

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04/17/2012 12:15 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Don't you see that that is what the New Jerusalem is? It is the freedom of living in the Spirit. Freedom from sin. Freedom of the fear of making the wrong choices, Freedom from the despair caused by the repercussions of sinful actions.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



^This is an interesting interpretation^.

So do you disagree that it is a 'city'?...

Revelation 3:12
... the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem


And how do you reconcile your interpretation with this verse:

Daniel 9:25
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.






?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051



It is both.

We have the potential to attain the Kingdom of God in our personal lives by fulling living the will of God and upon doing so will be admitted to the New Jerusalem when it comes where ALL who live there will live the will of God. We can be sons of God here and now and will be and live with the sons of God in the New Jerusalem.

Much of the scripture has dual meanings, such as marriage.

We are expected to be faithful to our spouses and not commit adultery.

We are also expected to be faithful to God as we are the church or the bride. We are to marry ourselves to Him and his will and are not to adulterate His law.
Buddaroll

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04/17/2012 12:16 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
...


I did not.

I felt called to expand on it.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



This was intended for other posters?...

"All be one" is not what you think at all.'




 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051




Messiah is NOT God, He is the Son of God.
He did not ask us to worship Him, He asks that we believe Him and follow His teachings because His teachings are God's teachings because He and the Father are one.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



yer preachin to the choir...




}{
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051


LOL, then I was compelled to put it there for someone who was wondering I suppose.

<3
anonymous
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04/17/2012 12:17 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Jesus is The Logos (Word) incarnate. See John 1:1-5 and you can see the 2 always existed. Jesus (the Logos/Word) is the Creator of ta panta (the all). He divested Himself and came to earth as a man. See Luke 1:26-35 and you will see Gabriel announced the coming of Jesus via a woman who would be impregnated by the Holy Spirit (force or power of God). It's ALL there in the Bible.
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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04/17/2012 12:28 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Don't you see that that is what the New Jerusalem is? It is the freedom of living in the Spirit. Freedom from sin. Freedom of the fear of making the wrong choices, Freedom from the despair caused by the repercussions of sinful actions.
 Quoting: Buddaroll



^This is an interesting interpretation^.

So do you disagree that it is a 'city'?...

Revelation 3:12
... the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem


And how do you reconcile your interpretation with this verse:

Daniel 9:25
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.






?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 1071051



It is both.


 Quoting: Buddaroll





^That answer seems to be acceptable^.

Thanks.


+
Anonymous Coward
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04/17/2012 12:35 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
I do not subscribe to any church doctrine

Take from it what you will







John 1

King James Version (KJV)


John 1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"The same was in the beginning with God."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."




1 John 5:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son."




John 20:26-30

King James Version (KJV)


"And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you."

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:"





Colossians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)


"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"




Hebrews 1:1-9

King James Version (KJV)


Hebrews 1

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."




Philippians 2:6-8

King James Version (KJV)


"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Anonymous Coward
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04/17/2012 01:29 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
I am a Mormon. Here is what Mormons believe on the matter:

1. GOD is the Eternal Father; the creator of all things, the holder of all knowledge, the one who was responsible for organizing each Intelligence into the soul that we each ARE. (THIS is the concept of eternal progression. Before we were born, we were "spirits/souls". Before we were spirits, we were intelligences. Before we were intelligences, we were something else. EACH OF US is on a journey of progression. The fact that you are here today, and living a human life, means you have already progressed probably 90 percent of your journey.)

2. Jesus Christ was the first begotten in the spirit, AND the first begotten in the flesh. This means that FIRST, Christ was the first intelligence organized into a spirit by God the Father. Lucifer (Satan) was the second intelligence organized into a spirit, and he is referred to as a "son of the morning". SECOND, we believe that Jesus was LITERALLY the offspring of God the Father in the flesh; FIRST begotten in the flesh. Mary was overcome by the spirit of the Lord, and she was made pregnant. Many cannot fathom this belief, associating it with perversion or with an evil of sorts, BUT, if indeed Mary was the most pure on the earth at that time capable of bearing a physical child, and the sole purpose of that child's life would be to live a human/mortal life with both the tendencies of MORTALITY AND TEMPTATION, and also THE POWER OF GOD, it is in this manner that Christ may judge us with full authority; because not only will Christ preside over the judgement with the authority of God the Father, he also has the experience and knowledge of having lived and been subject to a HUMAN LIFE of MORTALITY AND TEMPTATION, and in this manner he may judge all of us with complete fairness; for he himself experienced the same things we all have.

3. The "Holy Ghost" or Holy Spirit is a third, non-corporeal being that to now, has not been born, has not received a physical body (which he will ultimately, at some point, in God's time and according to his plan) which is a requirement of all men and women to achieve God's plan for us; to have a time of mortal probation, and to be judged according to our faithfulness and obedience. I hesitate to say we will be judged on our 'actions and deeds' because those same actions and deeds are directly related to how faithful and obedient we are to the Lord.

SO, in closing, according to the doctrines of the Mormon Church, GOD is the Father. Jesus Christ is the Son. The Holy Ghost is a spiritual being who we hold is the "other comforter" promised after Jesus Christ's resurrection; the gift of the Holy Ghost is offered to all men by God.

All three are the same in purpose; to bring about the immortality and the joy of man. A Trinity in purpose.

NOT a Trinity of three distinct 'attributes' that make up one overall supreme "being". Three individual, distinct, personages (two of them physical beings - God the Father, and the resurrected Jesus Christ - and the Holy Ghost, a spiritual being, who will one day receive a physical body and be born to fulfill that spirit's obligation to endure a mortal probation to bring about his opportunity at salvation the same as our opportunity we have now; although I believe that the Holy Ghost will be afforded a much different path than we have now.

Hope this helps you in your studies and quests.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1461956


This is why Mormonism is a Cult.
The very idea:

that Jesus has not always been eternal.
That Satan and Jesus are coequal.

It is blasphemy. Throw your wicked Book of Mormon in the trash and believe in the True Jesus and not some myth of Joseph Smiths making. He is in hell as I speak and you will be to unless you leave that cult!

Do you not believe the Bible is the true word of God? If you truly do you would believe this also.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1838356


In response to your questions/accusations, In order:

We are ALL eternal. We also eternally Progress. In short we 'were' before we 'are'.

Jesus, Lucifer, you, me, we are ALL equals in spirit; this requires a knowledge of purpose of mortality, the purpose of the earth, and the Plan of Salvation put forth to redeem us all. Before the earth was made, after we had all been begotten as spirits, we loved God and wanted to be like him. God had a glorified, physical body of flesh and bone. A plan was devised where a home would be prapared for us (the earth), where we would be born, be tested as to our obedience to the laws and ordinances of God, and return to him based on our worthiness. Jesus set forth a plan where all mankind would have the free agency to do right or wrong, and those redeemed would have the glory for it given to God. Lucifer set forth a plan where all souls would be forced to obey the laws and ordinances of God, so that no soul would be lost, and the glory for the redemption of all mankind be given to Lucifer. God chose the plan set forth by Jesus, as it is an eternal principle that men should have free will. A war in heaven was fought, with Lucifer and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven cast down to earth and would never attain a mortal or physical state. A mortal "probation" is required to fully be tested of our willingness to follow God's plan. So, in the beginning, Jesus, Lucifer, you, me, and everyone else were equals in a sense; but through free will, most of us did not offer a plan or were in agreement with Jesus or Lucifer. Because you are alive today, you sided with Christ's plan in the pre-existence. Because of his place as the First begotten in the spirit and his place as the architect of our salvation, he was chosen to be born into mortality as the PHYSICAL son of God also, giving him certain power and authority of God in the Flesh.

The bible is true and is the word of God; however we believe that when the King James Bible was put together, there were many truths left out that should have remained as a part of Christ's gospel, and also misinterpretations. We also believe that the Book of Mormon is also the word of God, specifically as a SECOND witness of Christ. There are gospel messages and Christ's teachings in the Book of Mormon as well, although most of it is a record of the history of the Nephites and Lamanites.

You are absolutely correct in the fact that the book of Revelation should not be added to or taken away from. This admonition applies to the book of Revelation only; keep in mind that when the Bible was originally compiled, that manuscript stood alone. It was placed in the order it was by men; that warning applies to the book of Revelation, not the Bible as a whole. Any more questions?
Lemon

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04/17/2012 01:43 PM

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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Titus Flavius was Caesar & Pointif Maximus of the Roman Empire. He called himself God the Father. He referred to his son as the son of God.

He had a problem with some rebellious jewish people. His millitary beat the jewish people, but he still had a problem. He comissioned the writting of a few books (the Gospels) and ordered the jewish people to believe it (at sword point).

A few generations later and Caesar diden't even need an army anymore.

[link to www.amazon.com]
THREE LAWS OF TYRANNY


Tyranny Law #1:
"Any power that can be abused will be abused."

Tyranny Law #2:
"Abuse always expands to fill the limits of resistance to it."

Tyranny Law #3:
"If people don't resist the abuses of others, they will have no one to resist the abuses of themselves, and tyranny will prevail."
Daniel's Seventieth Seven
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04/17/2012 02:24 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
I do not subscribe to any church doctrine

Take from it what you will







John 1

King James Version (KJV)


John 1

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

"The same was in the beginning with God."

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."




1 John 5:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


"This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son."




John 20:26-30

King James Version (KJV)


"And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you."

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God."

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:"





Colossians 2:8-10

King James Version (KJV)


"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"




Hebrews 1:1-9

King James Version (KJV)


Hebrews 1

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."




Philippians 2:6-8

King James Version (KJV)


"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12672973



Amen.

Thank you for posting those wonderful verses.



^^
T Ceti H.C. Radnarg

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04/17/2012 02:38 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Jesus had a literal Father. God was the father of Jesus. They are two separate and distinct persons. They are material beings, made of flesh and bone.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1508631
...yes we know king herod and temple virgin mary as mom...jesus is still the bloodline of the kings and prophets...prophets and priests don't get along...prophets give the mysteries free to help all, the priests use the mysteries to fleece and power-trip, simple as that...
How unfortunate for some rulers when men,women,and children continue to think... Keep repeating the lies loud enough and long enough and just maybe the people will start to believe the lies again and good luck with that...finding your energy open until mars becomes raging aries...
gd2balive

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04/17/2012 03:45 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
The body is made of many members who have been prepared by the Anointing and each one of these members are moved within their SOULS by the Anointing. Not all have the same gifts but WE are one body and the power that lives and moves through is the evidence of OUR testimony.

Remember not one single person has all the answers,that is why the body is made of many members each working together through the true power of the Love of the Father and the Mother.WE are here to make sure OUR Mothers and Fathers of OUR generations did not die for nothing in their testimonies of THE CHRIST.

That their days be long should come to mind about right now...and kept in your remembrances while they,the generations before and the prophets who are faithful wait for US to complete and finish what is written to its finality. If WE have not Love than truly the Love of the Father is not in US and if WE allow the body to be dismembered than WE are aiding and abetting the Darkest hearts in their conquest to destroy all that comes by the TESTIMONY of the Love of the Mother and the Father.

May you all search out the Motives of your hearts that in this day you receive the Anointing Holy Ghost that casts out all FEAR which has been used to blind you. The Saints will enter through the gates into the Holy City that has been prepared for them, will you be with them when it is said...

NOW IT IS FINISHED

MJ
Shamar

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04/20/2012 09:50 PM

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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
I am saying that "Jesus" (to be honest, I prefer Messiah because of how the name Jesus came to be makes me uncomfortable) is not God, "Jesus" lived fully the will of God. So in a way yes. He is One with the Father in that God worked through him fully. He fully knew and lived the mind and will of God.

If Messiah had been God, he would not have had to have been baptized in water nor would He have had to receive the Holy Spirit, would he?

He is the Son. He is the Son in that He came in the flesh, but did not live by the flesh.

He fully lived the will of God because he subdued his carnal spirit, the spirit of man, and instead lived as God instructed Him to via the Holy Spirit.

This is why he says to the apostles to wait to receive the Holy spirit and that they will do many of the same things He did and even greater because it will be God and the Holy Spirit working through them as well.

Messiah came to teach us by example he showed that we can lead a life free from sin but in order to do so we must believe Him (not believe "in" or worship) and His teachings.

You do not know the Father by Worshiping messiah; You come to the Father through Messiah by living the way Messiah taught us to.

He teaches that upon submitting to God, we can receive the Holy Spirit and through the Holy Spirit we will be shown the errors of our ways over time allowing us to repent each one, crucify it and replace that part of our carnal spirit with more of the Holy Spirit. Only when we are living by only the Holy Spirit and have crucified (suppressed) our carnal Spirit can we find salvation and live in the Kingdom of God as a son of God both here and now (hence him saying "this generation) and in the New Jerusalem. It is a choice we need to make every time we we are tempted by our carnal nature and each time you put a sin aside and instead live by his will, that sin of the carnal nature weakens it's hold on us. This is what He means by taking up our own cross.

Don't you see that that is what the New Jerusalem is? It is the freedom of living in the Spirit. Freedom from sin. Freedom of the fear of making the wrong choices, Freedom from the despair caused by the repercussions of sinful actions. The more you sin, the more sin comes to you and the inverse is true as well. The more you put aside your carnal nature and are obedient to Him, the less hold that carnality has on you.

Asking Messiah, God or the Spirit into your heart is NOT your salvation. Messiah came to give us HOPE of salvation and showed us how. It is an ongoing process that He has written a syllabubs out for you and each person will learn what he needs as he needs it directly from Him when you fully submit and ask God to take control and show you the way rather than my living in "the world" and being driven by your own carnal spirit which has selfish wants and needs.


Messiah removed the middleman. He removed the Pharisees, the Pastors and the priests and brought us closer to the relationship we had with God before Moses and gave us the hope and showed us how we can repair the personal relationship that Adam and Eve had with Him before they fell, the state we were created to live in. He came to give us the hope and the way to attain a full and personal relationship with God that transcends yet fulfills scripture. He tells us how to reunite with our Father because each of us is the prodigal son.
 Quoting: Buddaroll

you have some interesting points good for conversation.

I would shudder, if I were you, to declare that Messiah is not the Mighty I AM.

And,ask for forgiveness.
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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04/20/2012 10:04 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
I am saying that "Jesus" (to be honest, I prefer Messiah because of how the name Jesus came to be makes me uncomfortable) is not God, "Jesus" lived fully the will of God. So in a way yes. He is One with the Father in that God worked through him fully. He fully knew and lived the mind and will of God.

If Messiah had been God, he would not have had to have been baptized in water nor would He have had to receive the Holy Spirit, would he?

He is the Son. He is the Son in that He came in the flesh, but did not live by the flesh.

He fully lived the will of God because he subdued his carnal spirit, the spirit of man, and instead lived as God instructed Him to via the Holy Spirit.

This is why he says to the apostles to wait to receive the Holy spirit and that they will do many of the same things He did and even greater because it will be God and the Holy Spirit working through them as well.

Messiah came to teach us by example he showed that we can lead a life free from sin but in order to do so we must believe Him (not believe "in" or worship) and His teachings.

You do not know the Father by Worshiping messiah; You come to the Father through Messiah by living the way Messiah taught us to.

He teaches that upon submitting to God, we can receive the Holy Spirit and through the Holy Spirit we will be shown the errors of our ways over time allowing us to repent each one, crucify it and replace that part of our carnal spirit with more of the Holy Spirit. Only when we are living by only the Holy Spirit and have crucified (suppressed) our carnal Spirit can we find salvation and live in the Kingdom of God as a son of God both here and now (hence him saying "this generation) and in the New Jerusalem. It is a choice we need to make every time we we are tempted by our carnal nature and each time you put a sin aside and instead live by his will, that sin of the carnal nature weakens it's hold on us. This is what He means by taking up our own cross.

Don't you see that that is what the New Jerusalem is? It is the freedom of living in the Spirit. Freedom from sin. Freedom of the fear of making the wrong choices, Freedom from the despair caused by the repercussions of sinful actions. The more you sin, the more sin comes to you and the inverse is true as well. The more you put aside your carnal nature and are obedient to Him, the less hold that carnality has on you.

Asking Messiah, God or the Spirit into your heart is NOT your salvation. Messiah came to give us HOPE of salvation and showed us how. It is an ongoing process that He has written a syllabubs out for you and each person will learn what he needs as he needs it directly from Him when you fully submit and ask God to take control and show you the way rather than my living in "the world" and being driven by your own carnal spirit which has selfish wants and needs.


Messiah removed the middleman. He removed the Pharisees, the Pastors and the priests and brought us closer to the relationship we had with God before Moses and gave us the hope and showed us how we can repair the personal relationship that Adam and Eve had with Him before they fell, the state we were created to live in. He came to give us the hope and the way to attain a full and personal relationship with God that transcends yet fulfills scripture. He tells us how to reunite with our Father because each of us is the prodigal son.
 Quoting: Buddaroll

you have some interesting points good for conversation.

I would shudder, if I were you, to declare that Messiah is not the Mighty I AM.

And,ask for forgiveness.
 Quoting: Shamar


you should be shuddering he is right and you should be looking for forgiveness..Messiah is the LIVING WORD of the I AM

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 04/20/2012 10:07 PM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Anonymous Coward
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04/20/2012 10:20 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Who said that Christ is the Father?


One God.....manifesting simultaneously in three personages......the Father, Son, and the Spirit.


Difficult for a human to comprehend.....but that is it.


The closest human experience would be a father and son who have a very close relationship....and love each other very much. They are separate and unique in the physical sense......but connected as one in their spirit.
Anonymous Coward
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04/20/2012 10:26 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
When Christ says that he will knock on the door of people's hearts (Rev 3:20)......it is not He in the physical sense.....as He is seated at the right hand of the Father. But Christ is connected as One with the Holy Spirit.....and the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin.


And when Christ ascended......he told His followers that He would not leave them as orphans......but would send the Helper.....i.e. the Holy Spirit.


The Spirit and Christ are as One......as the Father and the Spirit are as One........as all three are as One.
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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04/20/2012 10:36 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
When Christ says that he will knock on the door of people's hearts (Rev 3:20)......it is not He in the physical sense.....as He is seated at the right hand of the Father. But Christ is connected as One with the Holy Spirit.....and the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin.


And when Christ ascended......he told His followers that He would not leave them as orphans......but would send the Helper.....i.e. the Holy Spirit.


The Spirit and Christ are as One......as the Father and the Spirit are as One........as all three are as One.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13424880


yeah! john chp 17 and the apostles also are the father!

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 04/20/2012 10:36 PM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Anonymous Coward
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04/20/2012 11:12 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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04/20/2012 11:17 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13424880


What alse he said go on there are many more of those in the book of john I know them all

revelation gives even better clarity of the father and son.

So pull them all and post them don't cherry pick the ones that you think we don't understnad what is really meant.


If peter the apostle of messiah confirmed who the messiah was the son of the living God and then the messiah said to him blessed are you Simon Barjonah for man did not reveal that to you but my father in heaven..

Then tell me who are you?

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 04/20/2012 11:20 PM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Anonymous Coward
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04/20/2012 11:24 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The word beginning here is referring to the time of Creation.

This marks the start also of Scripture......but God was in existence from eternity past.......long before the Genesis account.

"The Word" is another name given to Christ as found in John Chp 1. God also used words to speak the Creation into existence.

It is a faulty assumption that "The Word".....or Christ....the Son of God....was also created at the time of creation of this world.

This might only have been approx. 6,000 years ago.


The Son of God was in existence prior to the creation of this world.


Christ: "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." (John 17: 5)
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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04/20/2012 11:26 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The word beginning here is referring to the time of Creation.

This marks the start also of Scripture......but God was in existence from eternity past.......long before the Genesis account.

"The Word" is another name given to Christ as found in John Chp 1. God also used words to speak the Creation into existence.

It is a faulty assumption that "The Word".....or Christ....the Son of God....was also created at the time of creation of this world.

This might only have been approx. 6,000 years ago.


The Son of God was in existence prior to the creation of this world.


Christ: "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." (John 17: 5)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13424880


I am not disputing that friend all those are great scriptures.I am saying the messiah is not God the father
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Jesus Freak
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04/20/2012 11:33 PM
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Re: PROOF JESUS IS NOT GOD THE FATHER !! BUT THE GLORIFIED AND EXALTED SON
Christians say that JESUS IS GOD THE FATHER.The scriptures say differently in many places.

Please one of you explain what this means!


"This is Jesus speaking by the way!
1st john chapter 5
5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


Because if the father judgeth no man and you say jesus is the father is the Gospel lying to us or is it that you are delusional.

Who is the son then? Or is judgement committed to your own son if you have one?
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Have never seen a Christian who claims Jesus is The Father.

YHVH is a Godhead of three Persons, the Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit. All three are separate, distinct persons with their own personality. All three are God. The Father and Jesus Christ existed together since before time was time, as indicated in John 1. JEHOVAH is what you would call a 'family name' that applies to all three.

The Hebrew word 'Elohim', as found in the Torah, accurately defines the Godhead as plural as early as the first verse of the Old Testament. Genesis 1:1 reads, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." The word for God used here is 'Elohim', which literally translates 'Gods', supporting the rest of Scripture when it calls both the Father and Jesus Christ as the Creator. Just as Cherubim denotes multiple Cherubs, and Seraphim denotes multiple Seraphs, so Elohim denotes multiple persons of the Godhead, the singular being 'El' or 'Eli', as found in Scripture.

It has always been Satan's purpose to diminish and lower Jesus Christ in the eyes of the world. Unfortunately, many believers have fallen for his lie and now believe that Jesus Christ is not God. On the contrary, Scripture is clear concerning the Second Person of the Godhead, "For God was manifest in the flesh..." 1 Timothy 3:16.
 Quoting: A Voice In The Wilderness


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