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Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned

 
Chrit (OP)

User ID: 9751094
United States
04/23/2012 04:11 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
Some history and trivia about the National Firearms Act and the case around it shows how easily and quickly things can change while people sit back thinking it won't happen, we're protected by the Second Amendment, and the Feds won't mess with States rights.

In 1934 The National Firearms Act was put into place in reaction to gun violence during the era of Prohibition.

In 1938 two Treasury agents trudged through the back woods of Arkansas. They were looking for the location of a moonshine still they'd been tipped to by an arrested person hoping for a lighter sentence.

The agents found the still, but to their disappointment, it wasn't a working still. The boiler had been destroyed years ago.

They agents didn't want to leave without an arrest.

Frank Layton and Jack Miller pulled up in their pickup truck. They were arrested. They had a load of sugar.

In the pickup truck they had a shotgun. Layton and Miller were from Oklahoma. They were arrested for illegal interstate transport transport of an unregistered shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long. The barrel of their gun was about sixteen inches, maybe a bit more.

They didn't have the registration and hadn't paid the 200. fee to the Treasury. The concept was beyond the comprehension of the men to pay such a fee. They were subject to a fine of five thousand dollars and a prison sentence of five years.

Paul Gutensohn was the attorney for Layton and Miller. He argued that The National Firearms Act was clearly a Federal attempt to usurp the power of the States, the tax on the gun was in excess of the value of the gun, and the Firearms Act of 1934 was in conflict with the second article to the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

He filed a demurrer challenging the facts in the indictment constituting a crime and challenging the sections violating the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

The Judge was Heartsill Ragon. He felt strongly that the National Firearms Act of 1934 was in violation of the Second Amendment. He didn't agree that a man should be put in prison for the length of a weapon he used to protect himself, or that the person should have to pay twenty times the value of the weapon for each weapon owned, and pay the same 200. again each time it was sold.

The Judge told the District Attorney that, "A militia, by definition, is a group of citizens who use their own weapons for defense of themselves and their freedoms. We cannot throw them in prison or fine them five thousand dollars for failing to have exactly the same type arms as are carried by the National Guard or any other branch of our
standing army, or expect them to pay two hundred dollar taxes at the whim of the Treasury merely to
exercise their Constitutional rights."

The demurrer was sustained and it was ruled that the National Firearms Act of 1934 violated the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.


U.S. Attorney Clinton Barry appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. The case was United States v. Miller et al. At the time it was the single instance the Second Amendment in the twentieth century was tackled by the Supreme Court.

Gutensohn, defense attorney, didn't think the Feds stood a chance of winning. Neither he, nor his clients appeared in court.

Gordon Dean was pleading the case and he was hoping no opposing legal council would show up.

Dean said The Firearms Act levied a tax on interstate commerce in sawed off shotguns and affixed a Federal stamp as proof the tax had been paid.

Gordon Dean stretched the truth when he said no short barreled shotguns had been used in a military engagement and that it was ridiculous to say it was part of a well regulated militia.

Gordon Dean was hoping that the Supreme Court Justices hadn't seen military service and wouldn't realize that he actually said the serial number 76230 was not a government issue. He was also hoping they wouldn't question about the NFA restricting interstate commerce in "automatic" military arms and how the act would restrict private commerce for the exact weapons that were issued to infantrymen in the military.

The question didn't come. In short, it was found that "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel less
than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or
efficiency of a well-regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to
keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of
the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."

A strawman argument won. The National Firearms Act remains in effect today.
 Quoting: Nine's


Thank you for posting this Nine's!

For all those that think this doesn’t affect them because they do not see it daily. Go ask your local gun dealers about it And I don't mean dicks sporting goods. I mean the little guy who legally deals out of his house and has to deal with these laws on a daily basis and pay the yearly tax to be able to deal guns.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Anonymous Coward
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04/23/2012 04:17 PM
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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
molon labe, little man.... molon labe.

hehehe!
Anonymous Coward
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04/23/2012 04:20 PM
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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
ESAD, Jeethner, you fucking Zio-bankster scum!

scream
Major_Payne

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04/23/2012 04:39 PM
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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
This makes for nice reading but I didn't see anything that said anyone was going to push any gun control legislation at all. Maybe Obama is just waiting for his second term to destroy our country take our guns and sign Sharia law into effect.

Last Edited by Major_Payne on 04/23/2012 04:39 PM
Chrit (OP)

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04/23/2012 08:44 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
This makes for nice reading but I didn't see anything that said anyone was going to push any gun control legislation at all. Maybe Obama is just waiting for his second term to destroy our country take our guns and sign Sharia law into effect.
 Quoting: Major_Payne


Thank you and everyone for reading the info. From the responses it seems that a lot of people had no clue about who, how and why this TAX CODE is enforced. Heck I learned a few things, I took over a week researching to put this thread together at the request of some very kind GLP posters.



I avoided the theoretical ban list that is rumored to exist and I tried to stick to the facts alone as they are written in the Tax code. I didn’t want to cloud up hard info and to confuse the reality of the situation at hand with hearsay.

The rumor is they are writing up a new list of shotguns to ban, the Saiga 12 and the AA-12 are both on the rumored list along with a few other popular models.

IF they do make the move it will not be a small list and it will not be till after the election.


It will not be a legislated ban but just a piece of paper that needs to be quietly signed for it to be law, no congress or senate votes; I figured people needed to understand how this ban would happen.

People like their shotguns a LOT and public opinion will have a lot to do with a successful ban, they are waiting for a moment of opportunity to try this.


They want to redefine "sporting" once again.


I do not like the idea of “please make your tax payment to the ATF and you can keep your gun”.

If you really look deeper you find the ATF has been working on this for over 3 years and they are just waiting for the right time to try the ban. They have discussed it at length in their own blogs to test public opinion.


I’m not going to post rumored lists though, maybe another day when this gets a little closer I will with a different thread.


Thank you all for input on this subject.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Chrit (OP)

User ID: 9751094
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04/24/2012 12:05 AM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
Gets more interesting all the time.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Chrit (OP)

User ID: 15366081
United States
08/27/2012 03:40 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
100% legal, just have to pay the $200 tax stamp on the oil filter!


I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Chrit (OP)

User ID: 27088294
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01/07/2013 03:29 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
I was way ahead of the game with this thread, get ready for it.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Laura Bow

User ID: 1158661
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01/07/2013 04:14 PM
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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
I was way ahead of the game with this thread, get ready for it.
 Quoting: Chrit


You were definitely right about this! Wanted to bump it back up and also say I got your message, let me know what you find out!
Chrit (OP)

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01/07/2013 07:00 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
Crazy times.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Chrit (OP)

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01/07/2013 10:26 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
Read it, learn it, understand it.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Chrit (OP)

User ID: 27088294
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01/07/2013 10:58 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
Who the hell cares what Turbo Timmie says? They can ban anything they want. All we have to say is. WE WILL NOT COMPLY!

Once the step over the line and start to infringe upon our gun rights past what amaricans have deemed reasonable, we are specifically permitted by the constitution to eliminate that law.
 Quoting: Uninterested3rdParty


Please read it all, straight from ATF and IRS tax code, and Timmy and Holder are both involved.

This is IRS tax code already enforced.

This thread is also 9 months old because I saw the writing on the wall and the ban list 9 months ago.


You are already complying, just haven’t realized it yet.

Nothing new under the sun as they say.

Learn the rules they will attempt to use against us all.

Last Edited by Chrit on 01/07/2013 11:44 PM
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Anonymous Coward
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01/07/2013 11:18 PM
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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
would a shotgun that fires trillion dollar coins be legal???
Anonymous Coward
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01/07/2013 11:39 PM
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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
name something that cant be used as a destructive device. they can ban everything and there will still be weapons, just look at the collection of weapons at any jail
Chrit (OP)

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01/08/2013 12:10 AM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
name something that cant be used as a destructive device. they can ban everything and there will still be weapons, just look at the collection of weapons at any jail
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 26548545




They changed it because it IS STILL illegal to force people to register “firearms”, so they switched to the term destructive device to get around the Constitution, all on page one.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Laura Bow

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01/08/2013 10:38 AM
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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
CHECK THIS OUT!!! You called it Chrit...

Thread: HOLY SHIT... New Treasury Secretary TO BAN IMPORTATION OF GUNS!!
Chrit (OP)

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01/08/2013 10:26 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned
 Quoting: Laura Bow


I posted step two now on a diffrent thread.

I pray I am wrong.

Made me sick today to see I nailed this thread.


Thread: VICE PRESIDENT BIDEN ADMITS IT!! Obama can use "executive orders" to enact gun control!!

Last Edited by Chrit on 01/09/2013 09:48 PM
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.
Chrit (OP)

User ID: 27088294
United States
01/10/2013 03:19 PM

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Re: Timothy Geithner (Secretary of the Treasury) alone determines what Shotguns & shells are considered “destructive devices” and can be banned


More than that who will be the next secretary of the treasury is a real eye opening question to ask.


 Quoting: Chrit



One last highlight of a warning in this thread now that it is threating to come to fruition.
I'm only human, it's my biggest flaw.

We must all realize a sink a chair and a pillow are all luxuries of home and a soldiers helmet takes the place of all three.

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