Why Go to Church?

By the will of man - not God! Grace is Unconditional Love - it requires no payment, rather it desires that you accept its Loving embrace!

That choice is embarrassingly simple to answer. I'm surprised you went there...

This post may be a little long BUT you are worthy of my teachings...

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ (one entity), which God (another entity)gave unto him (Jesus), to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel ( a third entity) unto his servant John:

Why didn't Jesus say Revelation 1:8 when he was on Earth? Why did he allegedly deliver it through a 3rd Party in Revelations? And modern scholarship doesn't even believe it was through the Apostle John.

BUT worse why did he go so far out of his way NOT to say that when he was on Earth? He referred to himself as the SON OF MAN!

Instead of saying "I AM GOD" he refused to say it...

BUT even Jesus' own words won't get you to question what you think is right and yet is wrong. Read what I originally posted - Jesus' own words when he was on Earth!


And some more

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, GOD.

Here Jesus loudly makes a distinction between GOD and himself. Doesn't he?

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I (Jesus) will, but as thou (GOD) wilt.”


Was he praying to himself here? Was he begging himself to stop this thing? It is obvious he is asking GOD to reconsider. How can he be GOD and do this?

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

GOD has life in himself, and Jesus has life in his own right. Note the separation here!

John 5:30 I (JESUS) can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father (GOD) which hath sent me.

Jesus says, without GOD I can do nothing... This is loudly yelling we are separate entities OR Jesus is being deceiptful... You choose!

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus sees his father (GOD) do things and does the same!

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven.

If Jesus is GOD and the father why did he teach people to pray like this?


Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So Jesus has foresaken himself... Who is he pleading to?

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

You can criticise Jesus BUT you can't criticise the Holy Ghost as that is unforgiveable? Where did the trinity disappear to?


John 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

This is Jesus showing oneness... We can be as one be we aren't one. Can you be GOD or Jesus? NO!


Jesus said to his disciples

John 5:30-31 "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father (GOD) which hath sent me (JESUS).

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

Penny dropping yet? Do you believe Jesus?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father (GOD) will send in my (JESUS") name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Three entities here... all separately mentioned.

BUT seeing you like men's teachings even Paul is confused!

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under his (JESUS') feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he (GOD) is excepted, which did put all things under him.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Paul says that everything is under Jesus except GOD himself. Is Paul wrong here and GOD and JESUS are equal? That's not what it says!

James 1:13: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jesus was tempted by Satan though wasn't he? BUT GOD can't be tempted or can he?

I'll let you read JOB again.

Satan who for some reason was back in heaven going here and there asked GOD to give him access to JOB and GOD agreed.

BUT GOD is omniscient... He knows JOB won't fail... How many people suffer through GOD being tempted by Satan?

Back to the book!

We have not been given all of the documents and books written that would make the Bible complete. So there you have confusion and incomplete information. TPTB, the Vatican and other institutions have these writings. So, the churches are calling for faith due to incomplete writings. Demand they give us the full picture and stop making us rely on them like children. God lives within.

Jesus took many people out of churches today.We really live the days of the Ladosian Church Revelation 3 and it is horrible to speak to someone in Church and when you mension Jesus name they look with dead eyes at you.
Go look at what the Lord Jesus said to Elvi Zapata about this Churches

[link to www.youtube.com]


This woman had a vision My Church is Dirty


[link to www.youtube.com]

Erm, sacrifice is a payment for peoples sin, not a payment for God's Love, right? God's Love payed for out sin through Jesus, so that's what we accept. Maybe we are talking about different things. =P

None of the Bible was written by GOD, unless you believe the story of the Ten Commandments and then those tablets may have been, if it is true!

Moses' ugly laws should give anyone with a thinking mind pause to question whether any of the vulgarities of Moses teachings are "OF GOD".

Does your GOD/JESUS condone stonings? The answer is YES! from the Old Testament BUT NO! from Jesus' corrections.

Stonings are one of the most unGODLY acts! GOD wouldn't condone it EVER!

Does your GOD condone selling your Children into slavery?

Exodus 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

If you believe the OT the answer is YES! Jesus didn't undo this ridiculous law, did he? So in the NT the answer is YES!

OOPS Now Jesus is also looking unGODLY!

Does your GOD condone Ethnic Cleansing? The answer from the OT is YES!

Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

If you believe your GOD would condone such crimes then GOD is a war criminal! Well does GOD approve of this?

NO GOD would condone Moses' laws!

So YES! I can question the Bible and what man says in it.. because of these very crimes portrayed as GOD's laws!

So if you are Christian the really important chapters are the Gospels (the 1st 4 books of the NT). Know what Jesus has to say!

Is man always right? NO! Have I proven the Bible is seriously flawed? YES!

Paul is perfect example of someone who shouldn't be revered. Paul was a Pharisee and Jesus didn't like Pharisees!

Acts 23:6 “But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

WOW! So now where does Paul show his true Pharisee colours? Remember Satan is rather tricky and devious!

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

So by posting here as a woman you are breaking a law stated by Paul! I know he is wrong, but do you?

But there is more -

1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

So Adam didn't eat the fruit of the tree of good and evil? This is simply wrong and Paul is lying to justify his Pharisee position!

Furthermore where did Jesus say this about women?

Paul was just a man! And yet he continued the discrimination against women for a further 2000 years and beyond!

Did Paul lie anywhere else? Well yes he did!

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; WHOM NO MAN HATH SEEN, NOR CAN SEE: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Yet he also wrote the exact opposite

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

AND

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

So much for Paul as representing Jesus' teachings!

How can there be exact opposites in the teachings of people and it all be reasonable and unquestionable?

I'll leave you to ponder these problems...OR leave you to just accept idiocy!

Beware what men preach especially if it differs from what Jesus preached!

Sorry, and another important issue addressed in the Bible but ignored by preachers and Christians.

1 Kings 22:23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

WOW! GOD apparently chooses to do this deliberately. Would GOD do such a thing?

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.


Jeremiah 4:10 Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

Jeremiah 20:7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

Ezekiel 14:9 And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

So which prophets do you trust?

Would GOD really send prophets that lie and deceive?

Note in Ezekiel 14:9 GOD apparently proudly states that he has deceived prophets!

BUT in

Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.


Sorry to break this sad bit of news to you people BUT you should question everything and everyone!

fellowship with believers is a vital component along with prayer and Bible reading -- ministry arises out of these 3

and we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together ;)

i learn a LOT by fellowshipping :)

love rb

we are fellwoshipping now.


You fellowship at work.

You fellowship with your neighbors....


Unless you speak of thing you shouldnt or act differently by living a double life...then you should be fellowshipping about GOD everywhere you go in everything that you do.
Therefore church is not needed.

RB... Of course humans of a like mind get along with humans of a like mind. There is nothing wrong with that!

BUT if all those like minded people are being indoctrinated through that fellowship wrongly, and no-one is questioning, is that fellowship really worthwhile?

I have showed time and again in this thread how wrong the churches have been in their teaching. I have shown time and again exactly what Jesus said, directly from the Bible, that absolutely contradicts what we all have been taught.

So where does your fellowship stand when most of what you have been led to believe is rubbish?


What do you gain from being told rubbish dressed up as fact?

Let's see a Church start actually preaching the truth!

Yes Jenny it would be a great idea to get the full picture and all of the information.

BUT what have we done with the information already available?

I know that through my journey not one preacher actually taught the stuff that I am showing.

You see it creates them a real problem.

Christians are first to claim they worship GOD, but do they really?

I suspect they worship man, and pretend to worship GOD.

Jesus warned us of this

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

BUT as usual no-one listens!

GGOD PLAN Medic... That way you will have all the know nothings together all pretending to follow Jesus' teachings when they obviously aren't.

AC 1190661, there are some good teachers left (found all on the internet), but keep in mind that there will never be a perfect human teacher, including ourselves. I wish I could find a fellowship who is exploring history and language and make sure people are hearing from God.

The best teacher is yourself SITW afterall the Kingdom of Heaven is within apparently.

If this is so we must learn to unlock the knowledge.

It will never be unlocked if we all believe falsehoods presented as facts. The Bible is a very flawed set of books.

This is how I studied... I read and stopped when anything didn't sound right. You do a lot of stopping but you certainly learn a lot along the way.

I checked the Greek and the Hebrew translation of words. That is a journey of discovery in itself.

Take for instance Apocalypse. What does the word mean?

Well if you thought "END of Times" you were wrong, and most preachers get this single word wrong when they preach. I have to be honest I have never seen an alleged GODly person get it right! So it is a great test of a believer's knowledge.

If they get it right.. Yippee... If they get it wrong... I wionder if they are worth listening to.

Apocalypse comes from the Greek apokálypsis which means "lifting the veil" OR Revelation.

About 400 or so years back people studied apokálypsis eschaton. Eschaton means "End of an era, a time, a period etc.

So through bad teaching and poor understanding the word eschaton was dropped and suddenly we were left with Apocalypse wrongly defined as "The End Times"

If preachers get such an important word as Apocalypse wrong, what else are they getting wrong.

Hopefully in my posts here I have at least managed to show you how misquoted the Bible really is.

The simple test is this "Would a loving GOD say this"?

If the answer is NO then it can't be true and something is wrong!

The second test is "What did Jesus say on the matter"?

The third test "Who is saying this"? and does it agree with Jesus teachings.

The final test is "Do I really think Jesus would say such a thing"?

Sadly, when you study like this, with an open mind and no preconceived ideas the Bible becomes a problem especially for Christians.

Why? Because often it doesn't say what they have been taught and they realise they are just believers and not true believers.

If you call yourself Christian YOU MUST understand Jesus' teachings.

I couldn't give a hoot about what a man said GOD said... If it sounds wrong then it will be wrong!

Just because someone puts "GOD said" in front of it doesn't mean it is correct.

Just because someone had a dream or a vision doesn't mean it is correct.

If it doesn't comply with my 4 tests... It has to be investigated further and usually is wrong.

Good luck with your investigating... I hope you find peace!

God requires NO payment for sin.

Think of a baby learning to walk. They fall continually until they get it right and in the process the parents continually help them until they get it right. After they have finally mastered it, they don't need the parents assistance for walking any more, however, they need their parents assistance in many other challenges they face while growing up.

The only thing the the Father requires of us in exchange for sin is that we accept His help and His Loving embrace and that we never give up trying to overcome!

Last Edited by Ozicell on 06/15/2012 06:02 PM

AC Australia, your contributions to this thread are greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Why TY Renaissance Woman,

I think it is time that the truth was actually shown for a change.

I hope my comments help people re-think all that they have been taught.

Sorting the wheat from the chaff as it were.

The start of any journey has to be the truth!

Last fall I was invited to a spiritual retreat by some members of my conservative church. (I am no longer attending, for many of the reasons discussed in this thread.) These retreats are by invitation only, and are meant for "spiritually mature" Christians. (The whole thing turned out to be very cult-like and upset me greatly, but that's another story.)

We were broken in to small groups of about 8 for most of our discussions. I asked the others about hearing the voice of God. I also shared some of my amazing experiences asking God for specific guidance using "fleeces." (Asking a yes/no or this/that question with a specific request for a designated sign to answer the question -- which I only do in very tough situations -- and it works! So very comforting to see God's presence in this way.) I also described a phenomenal event where I was "touched by the Creator" during deep meditation during an acupuncture session, in the depths of a very emotionally tumultuous spiritual crisis.

So... how did the discussion go with these "spiritually mature" Christians? They looked at me like I suddenly sprouted a third eye in my forehead. There was some nervous laughter, a few questions, and a lot of shocked expressions.

I asked them... If you have never experienced these things, what are you doing? Just praying blindly, going through the motions, and "hoping" it's real? They said pretty much, yes.

One of the many reasons I don't attend church. They don't even know how to communicate with God.

Sunday morning. Any more comments?

Glad I never stuck to any groups whatsoever, well.. except for some shroom tripping buddies, church seem more about middlemen, as if Jesus wasn't already enough, and a lot forgo many teachings just to belong in the traditions.




Can't resist the urge, pretty ontopic song

Middlemen, for sure. I joined to try to figure out what the peaceful Christians I know had found. I did not find it in church. However, the journey, questions, frustrations, betrayals, hypocrites, etc. all led me to finding truth on my own. So in that way, it was helpful for me. (Not recommending this course for others -- just saying I did eventually "get there" via this twisted route.)

That's how most of us got to the truth!

Is that correct? I thought God was in His Temple - the Human body? That would have God present with one person, not two.

The wide road to destruction has support for groups, the small twisting road is only for individuals to walk. Some just expect that they are privileged to get everything handed to them on a golden platter.

Hopefully it will all come back and will be more of an individual journey, authenticity plays a huge role, but sometimes it just seems like people are holding contests revolving around who can say Lord the most, it's smoke without fire.

So then.....
1 John 1:7-9 "But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness."
...if sin requires no payment, doesn't that mean that 1) God is not a God of justice, and 2) Jesus did not need to die on the cross, since our sin requires no payment. I don't see how that works. =P

What are pastors the only ones who God speaks to? I don't think so. Anyone who has a personal relationhip with God can do the same....churches are hypocritical anymore these days.

The pastors are false. What you see is a pretense.