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Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this

 
Q.
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User ID: 45144
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12/13/2005 07:58 AM
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Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
[link to img.photobucket.com]

Why do they hide the meaning of over half of the symbols.

Also I am curious as to if the exist half translation has any basis of truth wraped aorund it.
Q. (OP)

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12/13/2005 08:09 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
And here is the text that accompanies the figure.

[link to img.photobucket.com]
neti
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12/13/2005 08:14 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Alien Kiss wrote something about Kolob at the beginning of last year, Q..
Q. (OP)

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12/13/2005 08:22 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
thanks neti,

There are many deceptions in what is written to justify this as being their own version.

There was no altar, apparently he steped into the fire which turns out to be a stargate. A special helmet was required.

Also this is based on (Im bad with names) jasra which mentions the Anuki.

Though once again the apparent first book translated was found to also be partly another deception, the lie was later found with irifutable evidence.

It says fig 2 stand next to Kolob when in the diagram there are 2 other figures gaurding Kolob int he square.

Above is fig 2.

They have been trying to hide something in this important peace of work.

A riddle lays ahead :)
neti
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12/13/2005 08:26 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
I've saved both of your links, and will DEFINITELY come back to them.... It is something which interests. ty.
Q. (OP)

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12/13/2005 08:28 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
fig 3 to me, partly represents the beginning of a journey by one race accross a great distance (space) and fig 4 are also on a journey, perhaps to the same place (maybe here).

4 is behind 3 observing without 4 knowing.

fig 5 is a greeting on arrival and 6 a special worship and invocation to the quest whilst arrived.
neti
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12/13/2005 08:47 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Q.,

The "fire" is energy - the creative fire (sexual energy?)/ fire of creation. The "special helmet": was that a body symbolized by a head?

The "no altar" is because it is God who is incarnating..


The "2 other figures guarding Kolob in the square" look to be a goat and a ram (astrological symbols?). The ram Aries is the beginning of individualized life, and in the sign of Capricorn the soul ascends the mountain. Aquarius begins the life of service. It looks as if these "2 other figures" are the creation of the individualized soul (Self-consciousness arising from out of the animal kingdom) and the perfecting of the soul through the signs of the zodiac inbetween Aries and Capricorn. The other two signs are signs of Service.


I'll have to read it to get a better understanding, but that's a first impression.
neti
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12/13/2005 09:21 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Kolob is female (the soul is feminine). Oliblish is masculine and stands above the soul because it is positive will, maybe, and the soul gains the experiences.

I like what you say about the other figures:

fig 3 IS the journey of the soul

fig 4 "signifying expanse", the matured soul (Self) when it has learned to fly (in mental spaces, maybe). In the Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky, there is Kalahansa (the Swan)

I've looked it up and it says:

"This word of Hansa or esoterically "hamsa" is just such a case. Hamsa is equal to a-ham-sa, three words meaning "I am he" (in English), while divided in still another way it will read "So-ham," "he (is) I" -- Soham being equal to Sah, "he," and aham, "I," or "I am he." In this alone is contained the universal mystery, the doctrine of the identity of man's essence with god-essence, for him who understands the language of wisdom. Hence the glyph of, and the allegory about, Kalahansa (or hamsa), and the name given to Brahma neuter (later on, to the male Brahma) of "Hansa-Vahana," he who uses the Hansa as his vehicle." The same word may be read "Kalaham-sa" or "I am I" in the eternity of Time, answering to the Biblical, or rather Zoroastrian "I am that I am." The same doctrine is found in the Kabala.." [link to www.theosociety.org]



".. undeniably figured in the caduceus of Mercury, the God of Wisdom, and in the allegorical language of the Archaic Sages. Says a commentary in the esoteric doctrine: --

. . . . The trunk of the ASVATTHA (the tree of Life and Being, the ROD of the caduceus) grows from and descends at every Beginning (every new manvantara) from the two dark wings of the Swan (HANSA) of Life. The two Serpents, the ever-living and its illusion (Spirit and matter) whose two heads grow from the one head between the wings, descend along the trunk, interlaced in close embrace. The two tails join on earth (the manifested Universe) into one, and this is the great illusion, O Lanoo!" [link to www.sacred-texts.com]


"the symbol of Hansa (whether "I," "He," Goose or Swan) is an important symbol, representing, for instance, Divine Wisdom, Wisdom in darkness beyond the reach of men. For all exoteric purposes, Hansa, as every Hindu knows, is a fabulous bird, which, when given milk mixed with water for its food (in the allegory) separated the two, drinking the milk and leaving the water; thus showing inherent wisdom -- milk standing symbolically for spirit, and water for matter." [first link again]



fig 5 is a cow, Q., symbol of sexual vigor in the sign Taurus (the bull).. fig. 6 is the Earth as it says in the commentary. So the soul disguised in the Bull is facing the Earth, and its future of incarnation in matter..


These are beautiful symbols, Q., absolutely beautiful symbols.
neti
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12/13/2005 09:31 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
You say:

"4 is behind 3 observing without 4 knowing."


The open wings represent the 'future self' looking at the journeys of the soul who is not yet turned towards his/her future self. fig 3 is the self immersed in form: "a stargate." and "A special helmet.." shrouding or veiling/confining the vision of the soul (of itself in all selves).
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2005 09:41 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
I am an artist, photographer and Reiki Master. I looked at the links and I must tell you, first they are beautiful, yet I feel strange. I just completed some fake rock paintings in pictorial cave painting styles, I felt the urge and followed my guidance and signed with 4 symbols on each rock, that I have no clue meant. These symbols are very similar to what is on this disk.
If anyone could give me direction of where I should start to do research or further learning, I would greatly appreciate it!

V
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2005 09:43 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
I also should note that it is fig. 11 on the disk that I intuitively used the four symbols on my paintings.
V
neti
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12/13/2005 09:45 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Yes, the bull (fig 5) with its sexual energy is facing the Earth (fig 6) and away from God sitting on the throne (fig 7), and if you notice: God is facing away from the Bull and the four figures symbol of the Earth.

The bull takes center stage for a time between the Earth and God, or Spirit which is Unity, the identity of each with all.


We loose sight of that Unity when we are incarnated, and God has no vision of separation, being turned away from it.
neti
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12/13/2005 10:12 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
I don't know what the written symbols mean but fig's 8 - 11 rising up the left side, and 12 - 15 descending on the right side, sum to a total of eight, which is the Venus Cycle....... Venus associated with the higher mind. Fig 16, one above the bottom, being number 16, = 2 x 8, or 3^2 (2 x 2 x 2), and fig 17: 17 is a prime number (is the 8th prime number!). WoW.

There's that link on prime numbers which we dug-up somewhere. scratching


Fig 18 is the circle of creation - time?

Fig's 19 - 21 are the three in one, representing God (fig 7) in manifestation.


It's an incredible glyph, Q. and AC 53003..
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2005 10:23 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Thank you Neti and I agree great glyph, I will be researching and doing some intuitive research on this disk for futher information.

V
neti
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12/13/2005 10:29 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
I'll be interested, AC 53003, and ty.
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2005 02:33 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
bump
Duncan Kunz

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12/13/2005 03:23 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
It's from "The Book of Abraham", supposedly found and translated by Joseph Smith Junior, the prophet and founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

It's a Mormon thing. If you have a copy of the Standard Wroks, it is a part of the "Pearl of Great Price."
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Duncan Kunz

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12/13/2005 03:27 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
There's even a song about it!

If You Could Hie to Kolob, 284 - William W. Phelps

1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,
Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?
Me thinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.
There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.
There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2005 03:32 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Translation:The one who sees in duality will administer.

The change is before the other land.
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2005 03:49 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Have you been dunked yet, Duncan?
Duncan Kunz

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12/13/2005 04:04 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
"Have you been dunked yet, Duncan?"

No, but it appears that the rest of you, in ascribing all kinds of woo-woo stuff to it, have been suckered -- again.
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Duncan Kunz

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12/13/2005 04:09 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
"This is all Ananaki [Annunaki] teaching to the masses of 20,000 bce.

Perverted like all,including Roscurians [Rosicrucians] and Meldsadek [Melchizedek] teachings."

If you can't even SPELL the stuff you're trying to explain, whom do you expect to believe you?
Where's the EVIDENCE, Jim?
Mongo

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12/13/2005 04:30 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
While Joseph Smiths translations can definatley be questioned, the diagrams are indeed real. Here is a bit of history:

The Book of Abraham comes first on my list, because ultimately the divinity of Joseph's calling rests upon it. If he in fact translated an ancient record of the patriarch Abraham through the power of God, he must have been the prophet and seer he claimed to be. However, if the Book of Abraham is a fabrication, Joseph was a fraud. The same might be said of the Book of Mormon. But since we don't have the golden plates, it is difficult to authenticate whether it is a true record. Fortunately, we do have the original records (for example, Facsimile 1) used by Joseph to translate the Book of Abraham. This gives us what we need to objectively determine whether Joseph's claims are true.

In July of 1835, an Irishman named Michael Chandler brought an exhibit of four Egyptian mummies and papyri to Kirtland Ohio, then the home of the Mormons. The papyri contained Egyptian hieroglyphics which intrigued the prophet Joseph Smith. The meaning of Egyptian hieroglyphics would not become available to the public until 1837, on the publication of John G. Wilkinson's Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians, based on the Rosetta stone. But Joseph was not dependent on such mundane means for translating ancient records.

As prophet and seer of the Church, Joseph was given permission to look at the papyri scrolls in the exhibit, upon which he pronounced a marvelous discovery:

"...with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commence the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. - a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 236).

Astounded by their good fortune in finding not only the writings of the biblical patriarch Abraham, but also those of Joseph of Egypt, several members of the Church pooled their money and bought the papyri and mummies for $2,400. After about seven years, Joseph finished the translation of the scroll which he called the Book of Abraham, but he died before translating the Book of Joseph scroll.

Wilford Woodruff recorded in his diary on February 19, 1842 that the Book of Abraham was literally written by Abraham himself. This would make the Book of Abraham the only existing original copy of a scriptural book. It would also date the record of Abraham (about 2,000 B.C.) to some 500 years prior to the Book of Genesis authored by Moses, between 1440-1400 B.C.

"Joseph the Seer has presented us some of the Book of Abraham which was written by his own hand but hid from the knowledge of man for the last four thousand years but has now come to light through the mercy of God." (Diary of Wilford Woodruff, entry of February 19, 1842, LDS archives; also in Jay M. Todd, The Saga of the Book of Abraham (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Co., 1969), p. 221)

The Book of Abraham is believed by the LDS church to have been written by Abraham himself, as shown in the preface to the Book of Abraham:

"THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM

TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH

A Translation of some ancient Records, that have fallen into our hands from the catacombs of Egypt. - The writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand, upon papyrus."

With the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, it finally became possible for scholars to decipher the Egyptian language. This in turn enabled the experts to objectively evaluate Joseph's translation of the papyri. The papyri themselves were thought to have been destroyed in the "Great Chicago Fire" in 1871. However, Egyptologists could still study the three Facsimiles included in the Book of Abraham as well as Joseph's translation of these Facsimiles. The first such study was performed by M. Theodule Deveria of the Louvre in Paris. Deveria was able to decipher the names and titles of various Egyptian gods and goddesses, as well as the name of the deceased Egyptian for whom the scroll had originally been prepared. Regarding Facsimile No. 3 he wrote:

"The deceased led by Ma into the presence of Osiris. His name is Horus, as may be seen in the prayer which is at the bottom of the picture, and which is addressed to the divinities of the four cardinal points." (Voyage au Pays des Mormons (Paris, 1860).

Deveria recognized the three Facsimiles as common Egyptian funerary documents and concluded that Joseph's interpretations of the Facsimiles was nonsense.

In 1912, Reverend Franklin S. Spalding sent copies of the three Facsimiles from the Book of Abraham to some of the world's leading scholars of Egyptology. All eight of the scholars that responded were unanimous in their condemnation of Joseph's translations as being incorrect. For example, Dr. Arthur Mace, Assistant Curator for the Department of Egyptian Art of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York explained:

"The Book of Abraham, it is hardly necessary to say, is a pure fabrication. Cuts 1 and 3 are inaccurate copies of well known scenes on funeral papyri, and cut 2 is a copy of one of the magical discs which in the late Egyptian period were placed under the heads of mummies. There were about forty of these latter known in museums and they are all very similar in character. Joseph Smith's interpretation of these cuts is a farrago of nonsense from beginning to end. Egyptian characters can now be read almost as easily as Greek, and five minutes' study in an Egyptian gallery of any museum should be enough to convince any educated man of the clumsiness of the imposture." (F.S. Spalding, Joseph Smith Jr., As a Translator, 1912, p. 27)

Dr. A. H. Sayce from Oxford, England concurred:

"It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud. The fac simile from the Book of Abraham No. 2 is an ordinary hypocephalus, but the hieroglyphics upon it have been copied so ignorantly that hardly one of them is correct. I need scarcely say that Kolob, &c., are unknown to the Egyptian language. Smith has turned the goddess into a king and Osiris into Abraham." (Ibid., p. 23)

Dr. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"They are copies of Egyptian subjects of which I have seen dozens of examples. They are centuries later than Abraham. The attempts to guess a meaning for them in the professed explanations are too absurd to be noticed. It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations." (Ibid., p. 24)

Dr. James H. Breasted of the Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago, declared:

"It will be seen, then, that if Joseph Smith could read ancient Egyptian writing, his ability to do so had no connection with the decipherment of hieroglyphics by European scholars...The three fac-similes in question represent equipment which will be and has been found in unnumbered thousands of Egyptian graves...The point, then, is that in publishing these fac-similes of Egyptian documents as part of an unique revelation to Abraham, Joseph Smith was attributing to Abraham not three unique documents of which no other copies exist, but was attributing to Abraham a series of documents which were the common property of a whole nation of people who employed them in every human burial, which they prepared...

Fac-simile Number 2 represents a little disc...commonly called among Egyptologists a hypocephalus...These did not come into use until the late centuries just before the Christian era. They did not appear in any Egyptian burials until over a thousand years after the time of Abraham. They were unknown in Egypt in Abraham's day.

Fac-simile Number 3...This scene again is depicted innumerable times in the funeral papyri, coffins and tomb and temple walls of Egypt. No representation of it thus far found in Egypt, though we have thousands of them, dates earlier than 500 years after Abraham's age; and it may be stated as certain that the scene was unknown until about 500 years after Abraham's day." (Ibid., pp. 24-27)

Thus, based on the evidence provided by the Facsimiles alone, scholars overwhelmingly concurred that Joseph's translation of these Facsimiles was incorrect. Further, it was determined that Abraham could not have possessed these Facsimiles because at least in the case of Nos. 2 and 3, they did not exist until long after Abraham's day.

Egyptologists noted another significant problem with the Facsimiles. There were sections of the drawings which were clearly false reconstructions. For example, Dr. Albert Lythgoe, head of the Department of Egyptian Art at the New York Metropolitan Museum, concluded that the reconstructed parts of Facsimile No. 1 were incorrect.

The above picture shows the original papyrus as well as Joseph's rendering of Facsimile No. 1. While the original papyrus had not yet been discovered at the time Lythgoe did his assessment, he nonetheless noted problems with certain aspects of the rendition. For example, Lythgoe pointed out that what Joseph interpreted as a wicked priest attempting to sacrifice Abraham was in fact Anubus:

"...the god Anubus, bending over the mummy, was shown with a human and strangely un-Egyptian head, instead of a jackal's head usual to the scene. And a knife had been drawn into the god's hand." (New York Times, Magazine Section, December, 1912).

This echoed the observations of Deveria a half-century prior, who also noted that the bird in Facsimile No. 1, to correctly represent the soul of Osiris, "should have a human head."

According to a professional reconstruction of the papyrus, Facsimile No. 1 should instead have looked like this (Charles Larson, By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, p. 65):

In Joseph's interpretation of Facsimile No. 1, the bird was the "Angel of the Lord". Joseph said the Facsimile depicted "Abraham fastened upon an altar," being offered up as a sacrifice by a false priest of Elkenah. The figures under the altar were various gods: Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh. This is referenced in both the Facsimile and the text of the Book of Abraham 1:12-14.

In reality, this is an embalming scene showing Osiris lying on a lion-couch. The actual translation of Facsimile No. 1 is:

"Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons -- and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified -- after his arms have been placed on his heart and the Breathing permit (which [Isis] made and has writing on its inside and outside) has been wrapped in royal linen and placed under his left arm near his heart; the rest of the mummy-bandages should be wrapped over it. The man for whom this book was copied will breathe forever and ever as the bas of the gods do." (Klaus Baer, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1968, pp. 119-20)

Contrary to what Joseph claimed, the four canopic jars under the lion-couch actually refer to the grandsons of Osiris: Amset, Hapi, Duamutef, and Qebehsenuef. Underneath these figures is the crocodile god Sobek (Charles Larson, By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, p. 102). Thus, every detail of Joseph's interpretation was incorrect.

In presenting the Facsimiles as part of the Book of Abraham, Joseph apparently kept to himself that some of the figures and explanatory text were not even from the original Facsimiles. These were actually drawn in by Joseph. As another example, see Facsimile No. 2 below:

It is easy to see where the missing portions existed and what Joseph drew in their place. In these locations, we find that Joseph copied from the Book of Breathings and the Book of the Dead scrolls, showing a complete lack of understanding of the Egyptian language. As with Facsimile No. 1, none of the reconstructions drawn in by Joseph are vindicated by the study of Egyptology.

For example, the upside-down creature in Figure 7 was drawn in by Joseph to represent the "form of a dove". This creature should actually have been an ithyphallic serpent with legs. The central figure of the Facsimile ordinarily has four ram heads in an authentic hypocephalus, but Joseph appears to have simply copied the two-headed Egyptian god Par directly above it in Figure 2. For the boat depicted in Figure 3 to the upper right, this should actually be two boats, a small one above a larger one. What Joseph did, however, was to copy a boat figure from the Book of Joseph papyrus instead. This copy is in fact a drawing of the sun-god in his solar bark, and is improper for a hypocephalus. (Charles Larson, By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, p. 105-9).

The above picture shows the missing portion of text in the outer ring of Facsimile No. 2, and how Joseph clearly copied from the Small Sensen text to fill in these missing portions. He randomly picked three sections from lines 2-4 of this text in order to fill in Facsimile No. 2. A "farrago of nonsense" indeed.

Another piece of the puzzle fell into place in 1938, when Dr. Sidney Sperry allowed the publication of portions of Joseph's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar. The Grammar was a working document used by Joseph and his scribes during the translation of the Book of Abraham. Sperry had discovered the Grammar three years prior in the official church history vault, where apparently they were deposited in 1855 and forgotten about. In 1965, a microfilm copy of the entire work was leaked to the Tanners of Utah Lighthouse Ministry. It was only in 1966 when the Tanners published the reprint, that the public was finally given access to the complete record. The Grammar quickly proved to be a problem for the LDS church, and it is understandable why they were hesitant to publish it themselves.

Professional Egyptologists again went to work examining the Grammar, and quickly concluded that it bore no resemblance to any correct understanding of the Egyptian language. For example, I. E. Edwards stated that it was:

"...largely a piece of imagination and lacking in any kind of scientific value...[and reminded me of] the writings of psychic practitioners which are sometimes sent to me." (Letter of I. E. Edwards, Keeper of the Department of Egyptian Antiquities, June 9, 1966)

The Grammar included two handwritten Book of Abraham manuscripts, which Joseph dictated to William W. Phelps and Warren Parrish. A third manuscript was discovered by LDS writer Wilford Wood in 1937, which was produced shortly after the first two manuscripts. A fourth manuscript in the hand of Willard Richards was also discovered, and it is this fourth manuscript that is believed to be the final manuscript used for the 1842 publication of the Book of Abraham in the Times and Seasons. Of these four existing manuscripts, the first three all included Egyptian characters in the left margin of the pages. This would soon prove to be of significance.

It was an eventful year in 1966, because not only did the full Grammar come to light, but the original papyri were rediscovered in one of the vault rooms of the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. On Nov. 27, 1967 the Salt Lake City Deseret News announced that the papyri had been presented to the LDS church. On the back of the papyri were drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area. It was also noticed that Facsimile No. 1 from the Book of Abraham was identical to the facsimile found in one of the papyri scrolls. Facsimiles Nos. 2 and 3 were not part of the rediscovered papyri. Scholars estimated that the papyri consisted of about 1/3 of the entire papyrus collection originally owned by Joseph (Walter Whipple, et al, From the Dust of the Decades (Salt Lake City, 1968), p. 116). The entire collection was comprised of two scrolls, along with 2-3 other small pieces of papyrus with astronomical calculations as described by Oliver Cowdery:

"On opening the coffins he discovered that in connection with two of the bodies, were something rolled up with the same kind of linen, saturated with the same bitumen, which, when examined proved to be the two rolls of papyrus, previously mentioned. I may add that two or three other small pieces of papyrus, with astronomical calculations, epitaphs, &c. were found with others of the mummies." (Cowdery, Messenger and Advocate, as cited in Charles Larson, By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, pp. 132-3)

All told, 12 papyrus fragments were discovered. By piecing the fragments together, it was determined that the papyri constituted two original scrolls. The first scroll was used for the Book of Abraham and consisted of three fragments: the Facsimile No. 1 papyrus, the "Small Sensen" papyrus, and the "Large Sensen" payrus. The second scroll had been declared by the prophet to be the Book of Joseph (written in red and black ink) and consisted of seven fragments. The two remaining fragments (discussed below) were not associated with either of these scrolls.

Here again it was possible for the Egyptologists to assess the veracity of Joseph's claims. When the verdicts came in from scholars such as Dr. John Wilson (University of Chicago), Dr. Klaus Baer (University of Chicago), and Professor Richard Parker (Brown University), it was unanimously agreed that the Book of Abraham could not have come from these papyri. The Egyptologists concluded that the Book of Abraham scroll was in fact known as the Book of Breathings and could be dated to the time of Christ, or approximately 2,000 years later than the time of Abraham. The Book of Breathings consisted of instructions along with a series of magic spells to be recited by the spirit of the corpse after burial, in order to teach itself to "breathe," and thus prepare for its existence in the afterlife. This particular Book of Breathingshad been prepared for the priest Hor, son of the priest Osorwer and the lady Tikhebyt. There was no indication of Abraham whatsoever in the scroll.

The Book of Joseph scroll was determined to actually be a copy of the pagan Egyptian Book of the Dead dating to a least 1,500 years after the time of the biblical Joseph. The Book of the Deadwas divided into many short chapters, or "spells," many of which were accompanied by vignettes to illustrate them. This particular Book of the Deadwas prepared for the deceased Ta-shert-Min, daughter of Nes-Khensu. As mentioned earlier, Joseph apparently never "translated" this scroll. However, Oliver Cowdery describes the scroll in detail, providing his own (incorrect) interpretations of what several of the vignettes on the scroll mean:

"The language in which this record is written is very comprehensive, and many of the hieroglyphics exceedingly striking. The evidence is apparent upon the face, that they were written by persons acquainted with the history of the creation, the fall of man, and more or less of the correct ideas of notions of the Deity. The representation of the god-head--three, yet in one, is curiously drawn to give simply, though impressively, the writer's views of that exalted personage. The serpent, represented as walking, or formed in a manner to be able to walk, standing in front of, and near a female figure, is to me, one of the greatest representations I have ever seen upon paper, or a writing substance; and must go so far towards convincing the rational mind of the correctness and divine authority of the holy scriptures, and especially that part which has ever been assailed by the infidel community, as being a fiction, as to carry away, with one might sweep, the whole atheistical fabric, without leaving a vestige sufficient for a foundation stone. Enoch's Pillar, as mentioned by Josephus, is upon the same roll...The inner end of the same roll, (Joseph's record,) presents a representation of the judgment: At one view you behold the Savior seated upon his throne, crowned, and holding the sceptres of righteousness and power, before whom also, are assembled the twelve tribes of Israel, the nations, languages and tongues of the earth, the kingdoms of the world over which satan is represented as reigning. Michael the archangel, holding the key of the bottomless pit, and at the same time the devil as being chained and shut up in the bottomless pit..." (Messenger and Advocate: Volume 2: No. 3 (December, 1835) pp. 233, 7) thru (Messenger and Advocate: Volume 2: No. 3 (December, 1835) pp. 237, 5)

Two additional fragments in the collection came from a second Book of the Dead scroll, and comprise one scene cut into two pieces. This second Book of the Dead had been prepared for a female musician named Amon-Re Neferirnub. It is not known whether Joseph ever made any particular identification of these two additional fragments. (Dr. Klaus Baer, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1968, p. 111)

Now it was possible to compare the Book of Abraham papyrus with the Grammar that had been published that same year. It was found that the Book of Abraham papyrus began with Facsimile No. 1 and was immediately followed by Egyptian figures (the Small Sensen text discussed above). These Egyptian figures matched identically, and in order, the figures in the left column of the translation manuscripts. The same Egyptian characters in all three manuscripts correspond to identical passages of adjacent text, indicating a deliberate juxtaposition with the text of the translation manuscript. In addition, where there were tears and missing sections in the papyrus, contrived non-Egyptian figures were written next to certain passages in the manuscripts. This provided further evidence that these papyri were in fact the originals used by Joseph to create the Book of Abraham. More importantly, it demonstrated that Joseph's translation of the Book of Abraham text could not possibly be correct, since the Egyptian characters had absolutely nothing in common with the transcript text to which they were aligned, and the non-Egyptian characters were meaningless.

Regarding the apologist claim that Joseph was only constructing the Grammar for the purpose of translating additional papyri after completing the Book of Abraham, and that it was a "failed effort", it is clear that this was not the case. In fact, Joseph was intimately involved with the creation of the Grammar and used it for inspiration during the translation process:

"This afternoon I labored on the Egyptian alphabet, in company with Brothers Oliver Cowdery and W.W. Phelps, and during the research, the principles of astronomy as understood by Father Abraham and the ancients unfolded to our understanding, the particulars of which will appear hereafter." (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 286)

The LDS church appointed Hugh Nibley as the primary scholar to work on a sanctioned translation of the papyri. However, while a respected scholar of ancient scripture, Nibley did not have any expertise in the Egyptian language. As Nibley noted in a June, 1967 letter:

"I don't consider myself an Egyptologist at all, and don't intend to get involved in the P.G.P. [Pearl of Great Price] business unless I am forced into it - which will probably be sooner than that. I actually don't know where the original PGP Mss are, though I could find out easily enough; so far my ignorance has served me well." (Letter from Hugh Nibley to Dee Jay Nelson, dated June 27, 1967)

Hugh Nibley began studying Egyptology with Dr. John Wilson in Chicago, and his eventual translation agreed in substance with that of the more experienced Egyptologists. In the face of such evidence, Nibley could only acknowledge:

"Today nobody claims that Joseph Smith got his information through ordinary scholarly channels. In that case, one wonders how any amount of checking along ordinary scholarly channels is going to get us very far." (Hugh Nibley, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1968, p. 101)

Nibley changed directions and began working through a variety of theories as to how Joseph may have been able to produce the Book of Abraham given the papyri that had come to light. In doing so, his theories were challenged even by fellow LDS scholars such as Edward Ashment of the Church Translation Department. Nibley responded:

"I refuse to be held responsible for anything I wrote more than three years ago. For heaven's sake, I hope we are moving forward here. After all, the implication that one mistake and it is all over with-how flattering to think in forty years I have not made one slip and I am still in business! I would say about four fifths of everything I put down has changed, of course...

Since hearing Brother Ashment I have to make some changes in what I have said already. Do I have to bang my head and go hide or something like that because I have been discredited? These things are being found out all the time. There are lots of things that Brother Ashment pointed out that I should have noticed; but I notice I could point out a lot of things that he has not noticed." (Hugh Nibley, The Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham)

For example, Nibley posited that the inconsistencies in the Facsimiles may have been due to errors by Reuben Hedlock, the Latter-day Saint who prepared the original woodcut engravings of the scenes in 1842. However, to do so Hedlock would have needed access to the papyri, as demonstrated by the blatant transposition of so many unrelated elements into the Facsimiles. It is unfathomable that Joseph would have permitted such creative license, and in fact journal entries show that he was directly involved in the process:

"Thursday, March 1, 1842 - During the forenoon I was at my office and the printing office, correcting the first plate or cut [note: this would be "Facsimile No. 1"] of the Records of Father Abraham prepared by Reuben Hedlock, for the Times and Seasons..." (History of the Church, Vol. 4, p. 519)

"Friday, March 4, 1842 - At my office exhibiting the Book of Abraham in the original to Brother Reuben Hedlock, so that he might take the size of the several plates or cuts, and prepare the blocks for the Times and Seasons; and also gave instructions concerning the arrangements of the writing on the large cut, illustrating the principles of astronomy [this would be Facsimile No. 2]..." (Ibid., p. 543)

In any case, the erroneous translations provided by Joseph demonstrate a blatant misunderstanding of the true meaning of the papyri.

Thomas Ferguson, a Mormon archaeologist, concluded in a private letter to a friend:

"Since 4 scholars, who have established that they can read Egyptian, say that the manuscripts deal with neither Abraham nor Joseph-- and since the 4 reputable men tell us exactly what the manuscripts do say -- I must conclude that Joseph Smith had not the remotest skill in things Egyptian-hieroglyphics. To my surprise, one of the highest of officials in the Mormon Church agreed with that conclusion when I made that very statement to him on Dec. 4, 1970--privately in one-to-one [c]onversation...

"The attempts, including Nibley's, to explain away and dodge the trap into which Joseph Smith fell when he had the audacity to translate the Chandler text, and keep the original Egyptian texts around, are absurd, in my view.

"My views are not for publication or spreading abroad. I am like you--maintaining membership because of the many fine things the Church offers. But facts speak for themselves. I offered the data available to my Stake Pres. recently and he walked away without it--saying he didn't want to read it. They can hardly excommunicate us when they won't look at the evidence.

Of course the dodge as to the Book of Abraham must be: 'WE DON'T HAVE THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT FROM WHICH THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM WAS TRANSLATED.' I conclude that we do have it and have translations of it." (Letter from Thomas Ferguson to Jim, dated March 13, 1971)

It is clear that Joseph had a vivid imagination and was capable of concocting "translations" of real and imagined ancient texts. He didn't even use original documents in "translating" his inspired version of the Bible, or the record of John the Beloved recorded in Doctrine and Covenants, section 7. Speaking of this imagination, Daniel Hendrix, who helped set type for the Book of Mormon, wrote that Joseph had:

"...a jovial, easy, don't-care way about him that made him a lot of warm friends. He was a good talker, and would have made a fine stump speaker if he had had the training. He was known among the young men I associated with as a romancer of the first water. I never knew so ignorant a man as Joe was to have such a fertile imagination. He could never tell a common occurrence in his daily life without embellishing the story with his imagination; yet I remember that he was grieved one day when old Parson Reed told Joe that he was going to hell for his lying habits." (Letter of Daniel Hendrix dated February 2, 1897, published in the St. Louis Globe Democrat)

This capacity for creativity, especially with regard to mysticism, may have come from Joseph's family. Both of Joseph's parents as well as his Aunt Lovisa had a penchant for dreams or visions (they used the terms interchangeably). Joseph's mother describes her husband's "first vision" as one in which he traveled with "an attendant spirit" who told him he would find "on a certain log a box, the contents of which, if you eat thereof, will make you wise, and give you wisdom and understanding." He was forced to drop it when threatened with "all manner of beasts, horned cattle, and roaring animals." (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 57)
to WS
User ID: 2574
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12/13/2005 04:57 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Well said Duncun.

This facsimile was not fully translated by Smith. The glyphs within them hold the pure doctrines of salvation and have the power to make you worthy to enter into the presence of Christ and live. You have to live them to understand them, right here, right now.

Line number 8 (which everyone who studies this facsimile seems to gravitate to because of the "temple knowledge" it holds) is merely an admonition by Abraham to live the laws that the members of the LDS church covenant to obey in the temple. They are under obligation not to disclose or divulge certain signs and tokens, but they can freely discuss the laws they covenant to (together with the blessings given by the washing and anointings). But even better than talking about them is to live them!

The glyphs in line 8 represent the law of the Lord, law of the sacrifice, the law of obedience (or the law of the gospel), the law of chastity, and the law of consecration. If you can obey those laws and incorporate them into your life you will live more in tune with the way that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ live--and will become more like them. More than any other lifestyle ever conceived on this planet--I promise you that...

Line 8 segways into line 22 which means that if you so live your life you will be raised up to the right hand of God and given priesthood power (symbolized by the staff), and that through the power of the Holy Ghost you are sealed up to life eternal (represented by the glyphs immediately above the staff and above the right arm).

This is knowledge that people must live to know. LDS members do not live the law of consecration in any appreciable degree anymore. They corrupted the doctrine in Smith's time (Smith was inconsolable about this) and were given a lesser law (the tithe), and they are still under condemnation per their very own Doctrine and Covenants regarding that matter. To be sure they share much with the needy, but they simply refuse to give up their worldly idols and live in true harmony with each other.

Most LDS do not read and do not care much for the sacred writings of the facsimile you've shared. I will not tell you what the remainder of the facsimile says, but will only share this, that the law of consecration is to be obeyed if LDS members wish to conform to the society and economy of heaven. If they truly want to "know Him when He comes again, because they will be like him". The LDS members are currently money-loving idol worshippers and a corporate-driven religionist, and obedience to the law of consecration is the only way for them to purge themselves of this tendancy while here on earth. They will continue to walk in confusion--notwithstanding their good deeds--until they finally conform to the ways of heaven.

This facsimile comes from papyrus writings. The papyrus writing, as old as it is, was only a later copy of the original plate that was written by the hand of Abraham as he sojourned in Eygpt. Tests have shown the papyrus writing to be about 2000 to 2500 years old. Abraham lived about 4000 to 4500 years ago.

Anyone interested in this facsmile must live its Christlike doctrines to understand it. You must covenant to live in a manner that Jesus Christ and the true disciples of Jesus Christ lived. If you do that, you will be happy (although it will be difficult at times). If you do that--every mystery contained in that facsimile must become yours.
Q (OP)
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12/13/2005 06:38 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
User ID: 81
12/13/2005 4:30 PM

Thats what I am interested in.

Can you please provide a link for what you have pasted as the text is refering to other images.

I would dearly like to see the originals that remain unchanged.

What is the point trying to resonate with changed or modified works that could be a deception.

---

Interesting stuff neti, its amazing how works such as these will resonate different vibrations to each individual.

-

And wow that pretty amazing to theuser whom draw the glphs without kwowing what you where drawing.

Thats worth following up.

--
Thanks for your input Duncan, you clearly demonstrate some past interest in this peace.

Interesting.
Q (OP)
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12/13/2005 09:06 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
Ah ha, this is where to find some interesting info out;

[link to trialsofascension.net]

Egyptologists noted another significant problem with the Facsimiles. There were sections of the drawings which were clearly false reconstructions. For example, Dr. Albert Lythgoe, head of the Department of Egyptian Art at the New York Metropolitan Museum, concluded that the reconstructed parts of Facsimile No. 1 were incorrect.

[link to trialsofascension.net]

[link to trialsofascension.net]

This echoed the observations of Deveria a half-century prior, who also noted that the bird in Facsimile No. 1, to correctly represent the soul of Osiris, "should have a human head."

According to a professional reconstruction of the papyrus, Facsimile No. 1 should instead have looked like this (Charles Larson

[link to trialsofascension.net]

Contrary to what Joseph claimed, the four canopic jars under the lion-couch actually refer to the grandsons of Osiris: Amset, Hapi, Duamutef, and Qebehsenuef. Underneath these figures is the crocodile god Sobek (Charles Larson, By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus, p. 102). Thus, every detail of Joseph's interpretation was incorrect.

In presenting the Facsimiles as part of the Book of Abraham, Joseph apparently kept to himself that some of the figures and explanatory text were not even from the original Facsimiles. These were actually drawn in by Joseph. As another example, see Facsimile No. 2

[link to trialsofascension.net]

For example, the upside-down creature in Figure 7 was drawn in by Joseph to represent the "form of a dove". This creature should actually have been an ithyphallic serpent with legs. The central figure of the Facsimile ordinarily has four ram heads in an authentic hypocephalus, but Joseph appears to have simply copied the two-headed Egyptian god Par directly above it in Figure 2. For the boat depicted in Figure 3 to the upper right, this should actually be two boats, a small one above a larger one. What Joseph did, however, was to copy a boat figure from the Book of Joseph papyrus instead. This copy is in fact a drawing of the sun-god in his solar bark, and is improper for a hypocephalus. (Charles Larson,

[link to trialsofascension.net]
Anonymous Coward
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12/13/2005 09:14 PM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
>I heard him quite clear, he spoke yelled in German.No' it was not German it was Danish, I know Danish quite well!No it was not, the man was defiantly Russian by the way he spoke, I have been there and know the tongue, very well.
With this information they walked away and discussed what force, could have inserted this poor courtesan inside of a chimney, upside down, with such force, that it would have taken ten men to place her in there, this way?From Murders On The Rue Morgue, A Sherlock Holms novel, by Sir Author Conan Doyle:

The upside down land means another reality.

Board member tries to kick Q in the as*, to where Q chases Board Member down the Champs De Ales, with his folded parasol.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/14/2005 01:40 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
am at a lose as to what your are trying to say here?
Q. (OP)

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12/14/2005 06:55 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
I truely like what you have said 2574.

How is it one can learn these ways if understanding or translating the true meaning of these glyphs has been construed and hiden of its true meaning for so long.

I yearn to learn more.

Can you at least guide me to a true source of translation for the glyphs?
neti
User ID: 46925
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12/14/2005 07:07 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
I'm actually confused as to what we're talking about here, since I last posted. There is NO line 22 on the 'Kolob - Artifact - disk' which you posted, Q., to which "to WS", 2574, referred, and you approved. Can you please explain what's happening?


And I haven't read the very long post..
Q. (OP)

User ID: 45144
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12/14/2005 07:26 AM
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Re: Kolob - Artifact - disk - can anyone explain this
22 is in the central left hand figure.

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