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Are people capable of self governance?

 
Resister

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07/10/2012 02:15 PM

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Are people capable of self governance?
POLL: Are people capable of self governance?
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Are people capable of self governance? Yes or no. Reasons why please.

An AC from here somewhere here in the United States posted the following comment today. “I'm absolutely convinced people are incapable of governing themselves.” A couple of centuries of self governance here in America had completely proven otherwise. Self governance is not only possible, it gave us the freedom to become most successful nation on the planet. BUT that doesn’t mean it will last forever.

People absolutely are capable of self governance... within the framework of a constitutional republic (which is rule by law) and by a people who adhere to basic moral standards (like the ones found in the Bill of Rights). John Adams, second president of the United States, was asked what kind of constitution we had. His reply was that, “the Constitution for the United States was written for a moral and upright people and is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other”. That is what makes self governance work. As a constitutional republic of “moral and upright people”, the United States was the world's most successful self-governing nation for a couple of centuries. We managed to remain free, save large portions of the rest of the world from tyranny, achieve the highest standard of living in the world, the highest levels of technology, and we were the world’s lone economic and military superpower.

Anyone upset about the use of past tense in that last paragraph needs to stop and take a candid look around you. We are not the moral nation we once were and we are paying the price for abandoning our founding principles. The lie of democracy has taken root in the immorality of hedonism. “If it feels good do it” has translated into “if you want it vote for it” no matter whether it is wrong or unconstitutional or violates the very founding principles of our nation. That is the difference between a functioning constitutional republic and the free-for-all lawlessness of a democracy.

To be self governing you first have to have and adhere to moral and upright principles. Sadly, most people just don’t have those any more. It isn’t the practice of self governance that has failed. It is the abandonment of the principles of that system that has failed.

More here: [link to line-in-the-sand.blogspot.com]
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
07/10/2012 02:26 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
What a stupid question! Lol.

Who do you think was in charge before we decided to make certain people kings and queens, rofl.

I refuse to answer such a ridiculas question.

Government was born from conqest. We did just fine before war.

Government is bad and always will be bad, nothing ever good came from war including governments.
Anonymous Coward
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07/10/2012 02:29 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
YEs...they are completely capable of it.
But it requires a perspective that not many people choose to view life from.
Anonymous Coward
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07/10/2012 02:31 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
What a stupid question! Lol.

Who do you think was in charge before we decided to make certain people kings and queens, rofl.

I refuse to answer such a ridiculas question.

Government was born from conqest. We did just fine before war.

Government is bad and always will be bad, nothing ever good came from war including governments.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19427594


+2
Anonymous Coward
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United States
07/10/2012 02:37 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17991847
Canada
07/10/2012 02:37 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Answer = NO

Major lesson God is trying to teach mankind.

Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man."
Resister (OP)

User ID: 669410
United States
07/10/2012 02:44 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
What a stupid question! Lol.

Who do you think was in charge before we decided to make certain people kings and queens, rofl.

I refuse to answer such a ridiculas question.

Government was born from conqest. We did just fine before war.

Government is bad and always will be bad, nothing ever good came from war including governments.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19427594


It wasn't a ridiculous question when the former English colonies declared their independence. There were a lot of people who did not want to get out from under the crown.

It wasn't a ridiculous question for the millions of Russians who died at the hands of Stalin and Lenin or the Germans or Italians who traded their freedom to give ultimate power to Hitler and Mussolini, or the millions of Chinese who died under Mao. They needed self governance but were slaughtered and or fooled into handing power over to those butchers because at some point they just gave up and submitted.

There are millions of Obama voters right now on food stamps because they believe that government can and should make all their decisions for them.

There are threads on this forum right now advocating the banning of gun ownership among other anti-freedom forced non-self-government antics.

A question that makes people think is not ridiculous even if it seems obvious on the surface. Most people don’t think for themselves. I’m just trying to get that ball rolling.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Anonymous Coward
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07/10/2012 02:46 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
"People who cannot restrain their own baser instincts, who cannot treat one another with civility, are not capable of self-government." - Chuck Colson
Anonymous Cowherder
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United States
07/10/2012 02:48 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Yes, but we must learn to accept personal responsibility for our actions and choices.
I'm a Libertarian Constitutionalist.

I don't give a shit what you do with your own life, whether you make it a success or a failure, that is the outcome of the choices you make, but please take responsibility for yourself and don't make ME pay for YOUR choices and we're all good.

Repeal the 17th Amendment and the Apportionment Act of 1911!

Thread: First steps down the road to a return to the Constitutional Republic that we were intended to be.

Restore the Republic.

It's a flower, not something to be feared.

cow - Moo!
Resister (OP)

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United States
07/10/2012 02:55 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Answer = NO

Major lesson God is trying to teach mankind.

Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in man."

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17991847


I wasn't asking about self governance apart from God. The founding fathers ended the Declaration of Independence by announcing "a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence". They trusted in God for His guidence, not man.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
HI.Lander

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07/10/2012 03:05 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
"People who cannot restrain their own baser instincts, who cannot treat one another with civility, are not capable of self-government." - Chuck Colson
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4488404


+1
"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one." -- Marcus Aurelius

Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 19498359
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07/10/2012 03:07 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
It really does not matter if they are capable or not. There must be freedom even if it means a billion people kill each other off in the process. If we must be ruled over, then we might as well end it.
Resister (OP)

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07/10/2012 03:08 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
"People who cannot restrain their own baser instincts, who cannot treat one another with civility, are not capable of self-government." - Chuck Colson
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4488404


Wish I could give you karma. Most excellent quote!
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Resister (OP)

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07/10/2012 03:29 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Yes, but we must learn to accept personal responsibility for our actions and choices.
 Quoting: Anonymous Cowherder


But that would lead to some people learning from thier mistakes and others exiting the gene pool when they don't. Can't have that now can we?

Last Edited by Resister on 07/10/2012 03:29 PM
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Anonymous Cowherder
FEMA Region IX.

User ID: 2245483
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07/10/2012 03:49 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Yes, but we must learn to accept personal responsibility for our actions and choices.
 Quoting: Anonymous Cowherder


But that would lead to some people learning from thier mistakes and others exiting the gene pool when they don't. Can't have that now can we?
 Quoting: Resister


the French have a saying for this, "C'est la vie," that's life, they left out the "and sometimes, it ain't fair" part though.
I'm a Libertarian Constitutionalist.

I don't give a shit what you do with your own life, whether you make it a success or a failure, that is the outcome of the choices you make, but please take responsibility for yourself and don't make ME pay for YOUR choices and we're all good.

Repeal the 17th Amendment and the Apportionment Act of 1911!

Thread: First steps down the road to a return to the Constitutional Republic that we were intended to be.

Restore the Republic.

It's a flower, not something to be feared.

cow - Moo!
BadKarma81

User ID: 1539112
United States
07/10/2012 04:06 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Are people capable of self governance? Yes or no. Reasons why please.

An AC from here somewhere here in the United States posted the following comment today. “I'm absolutely convinced people are incapable of governing themselves.” A couple of centuries of self governance here in America had completely proven otherwise. Self governance is not only possible, it gave us the freedom to become most successful nation on the planet. BUT that doesn’t mean it will last forever.

People absolutely are capable of self governance... within the framework of a constitutional republic (which is rule by law) and by a people who adhere to basic moral standards (like the ones found in the Bill of Rights). John Adams, second president of the United States, was asked what kind of constitution we had. His reply was that, “the Constitution for the United States was written for a moral and upright people and is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other”. That is what makes self governance work. As a constitutional republic of “moral and upright people”, the United States was the world's most successful self-governing nation for a couple of centuries. We managed to remain free, save large portions of the rest of the world from tyranny, achieve the highest standard of living in the world, the highest levels of technology, and we were the world’s lone economic and military superpower.

Anyone upset about the use of past tense in that last paragraph needs to stop and take a candid look around you. We are not the moral nation we once were and we are paying the price for abandoning our founding principles. The lie of democracy has taken root in the immorality of hedonism. “If it feels good do it” has translated into “if you want it vote for it” no matter whether it is wrong or unconstitutional or violates the very founding principles of our nation. That is the difference between a functioning constitutional republic and the free-for-all lawlessness of a democracy.

To be self governing you first have to have and adhere to moral and upright principles. Sadly, most people just don’t have those any more. It isn’t the practice of self governance that has failed. It is the abandonment of the principles of that system that has failed.

More here: [link to line-in-the-sand.blogspot.com]
 Quoting: Resister



I think this is actually an interesting discussion... and it's an EXTREMELY old one. I was surfing the web the other day, trying to find the origins of the Benjamin Franklin quote: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." (Or some variation of...)

This quote led me in a couple of different directions; I found an online repository of letters written by Thomas Jefferson, who believed that absolutely people could be trusted to govern themselves, that the American form of government would work and would continue to work. This was dependent on people learning how to read, and the press remaining free...

George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, however, believed that it was impossible. That at some point in the future of our country that our political system would turn to despotism, and their opinion was based on the fact that all previous political systems eventually devolved into despotism.

Another Franklin quote: "In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, — if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people, if well administered; and I believe, farther, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other."

Personally, I believe government for the people and by the people is possible, as it did work in the past. However, the system we currently have is broken, and was broken through corporate greed and special interest groups. Hopefully at some point everybody will wake up and prevent this from happening any longer... the road to recovery will still be a long one.
Anonymous Coward
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Canada
07/10/2012 04:12 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Yes, unless they live in a country that had slaves
Anonymous Coward
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07/10/2012 04:21 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
"People who cannot restrain their own baser instincts, who cannot treat one another with civility, are not capable of self-government." - Chuck Colson
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4488404


+1
 Quoting: HI.Lander


Ascendence of Sociopaths in US Governance

... the US government, in particular, is being overrun by the wrong kind of person. It's a trend that's been in motion for many years but has now reached a point of no return. In other words, a type of moral rot has become so prevalent that it's institutional in nature. There is not going to be, therefore, any serious change in the direction in which the US is headed until a genuine crisis topples the existing order. Until then, the trend will accelerate.

The reason is that a certain class of people – sociopaths – are now fully in control of major American institutions. Their beliefs and attitudes are insinuated throughout the economic, political, intellectual and psychological/spiritual fabric of the US.

[link to lewrockwell.com]
badkarma

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07/10/2012 04:23 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Yes, unless they live in a country that had slaves
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 506563


bsflag
Give me bad karma.
BadKarma81

User ID: 1539112
United States
07/10/2012 04:26 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Yes, unless they live in a country that had slaves
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 506563


bsflag
 Quoting: badkarma



OoOOOOoOoooOo.... I have a doppelganger....
Sungaze_At_Dawn

User ID: 1458670
Canada
07/10/2012 04:27 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
I answered yes, because there was only yes and no. The reality is, some are and some aren't. By that I mean, if you use basic common law, thou shalt not harm others, ie capable of not murdering, raping, pillaging, looting, and exploiting, or enslaving, many would be. At least in some countries. Some would be in all countries.
Resister (OP)

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07/10/2012 04:29 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Are people capable of self governance? Yes or no. Reasons why please.

An AC from here somewhere here in the United States posted the following comment today. “I'm absolutely convinced people are incapable of governing themselves.” A couple of centuries of self governance here in America had completely proven otherwise. Self governance is not only possible, it gave us the freedom to become most successful nation on the planet. BUT that doesn’t mean it will last forever.

People absolutely are capable of self governance... within the framework of a constitutional republic (which is rule by law) and by a people who adhere to basic moral standards (like the ones found in the Bill of Rights). John Adams, second president of the United States, was asked what kind of constitution we had. His reply was that, “the Constitution for the United States was written for a moral and upright people and is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other”. That is what makes self governance work. As a constitutional republic of “moral and upright people”, the United States was the world's most successful self-governing nation for a couple of centuries. We managed to remain free, save large portions of the rest of the world from tyranny, achieve the highest standard of living in the world, the highest levels of technology, and we were the world’s lone economic and military superpower.

Anyone upset about the use of past tense in that last paragraph needs to stop and take a candid look around you. We are not the moral nation we once were and we are paying the price for abandoning our founding principles. The lie of democracy has taken root in the immorality of hedonism. “If it feels good do it” has translated into “if you want it vote for it” no matter whether it is wrong or unconstitutional or violates the very founding principles of our nation. That is the difference between a functioning constitutional republic and the free-for-all lawlessness of a democracy.

To be self governing you first have to have and adhere to moral and upright principles. Sadly, most people just don’t have those any more. It isn’t the practice of self governance that has failed. It is the abandonment of the principles of that system that has failed.

More here: [link to line-in-the-sand.blogspot.com]
 Quoting: Resister



I think this is actually an interesting discussion... and it's an EXTREMELY old one. I was surfing the web the other day, trying to find the origins of the Benjamin Franklin quote: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." (Or some variation of...)

This quote led me in a couple of different directions; I found an online repository of letters written by Thomas Jefferson, who believed that absolutely people could be trusted to govern themselves, that the American form of government would work and would continue to work. This was dependent on people learning how to read, and the press remaining free...

George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, however, believed that it was impossible. That at some point in the future of our country that our political system would turn to despotism, and their opinion was based on the fact that all previous political systems eventually devolved into despotism.

Another Franklin quote: "In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, — if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people, if well administered; and I believe, farther, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other."

Personally, I believe government for the people and by the people is possible, as it did work in the past. However, the system we currently have is broken, and was broken through corporate greed and special interest groups. Hopefully at some point everybody will wake up and prevent this from happening any longer... the road to recovery will still be a long one.
 Quoting: BadKarma81


Two good relevant quotes for that would be:
"When the people discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury, that will herald the end of the Republic."

When asked what kind of government the founding fathers had come up with, Benjamin Franklin said, "A republic, if you can keep it".

The people who signed the Declaration of Independence and Constitution for the United States were so expectant of corruption and tyranny creeping in that they purposely limited it's power in the attempt to keep it in check. In the end though, if the people themselves are corrupt, there is nothing left to stop the government from becoming the same kind of monster that other governments have all over the world throughout history.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
BadKarma81

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07/10/2012 04:48 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
Are people capable of self governance? Yes or no. Reasons why please.

An AC from here somewhere here in the United States posted the following comment today. “I'm absolutely convinced people are incapable of governing themselves.” A couple of centuries of self governance here in America had completely proven otherwise. Self governance is not only possible, it gave us the freedom to become most successful nation on the planet. BUT that doesn’t mean it will last forever.

People absolutely are capable of self governance... within the framework of a constitutional republic (which is rule by law) and by a people who adhere to basic moral standards (like the ones found in the Bill of Rights). John Adams, second president of the United States, was asked what kind of constitution we had. His reply was that, “the Constitution for the United States was written for a moral and upright people and is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other”. That is what makes self governance work. As a constitutional republic of “moral and upright people”, the United States was the world's most successful self-governing nation for a couple of centuries. We managed to remain free, save large portions of the rest of the world from tyranny, achieve the highest standard of living in the world, the highest levels of technology, and we were the world’s lone economic and military superpower.

Anyone upset about the use of past tense in that last paragraph needs to stop and take a candid look around you. We are not the moral nation we once were and we are paying the price for abandoning our founding principles. The lie of democracy has taken root in the immorality of hedonism. “If it feels good do it” has translated into “if you want it vote for it” no matter whether it is wrong or unconstitutional or violates the very founding principles of our nation. That is the difference between a functioning constitutional republic and the free-for-all lawlessness of a democracy.

To be self governing you first have to have and adhere to moral and upright principles. Sadly, most people just don’t have those any more. It isn’t the practice of self governance that has failed. It is the abandonment of the principles of that system that has failed.

More here: [link to line-in-the-sand.blogspot.com]
 Quoting: Resister



I think this is actually an interesting discussion... and it's an EXTREMELY old one. I was surfing the web the other day, trying to find the origins of the Benjamin Franklin quote: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither." (Or some variation of...)

This quote led me in a couple of different directions; I found an online repository of letters written by Thomas Jefferson, who believed that absolutely people could be trusted to govern themselves, that the American form of government would work and would continue to work. This was dependent on people learning how to read, and the press remaining free...

George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, however, believed that it was impossible. That at some point in the future of our country that our political system would turn to despotism, and their opinion was based on the fact that all previous political systems eventually devolved into despotism.

Another Franklin quote: "In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its faults, — if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of government but what may be a blessing to the people, if well administered; and I believe, farther, that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic government, being incapable of any other."

Personally, I believe government for the people and by the people is possible, as it did work in the past. However, the system we currently have is broken, and was broken through corporate greed and special interest groups. Hopefully at some point everybody will wake up and prevent this from happening any longer... the road to recovery will still be a long one.
 Quoting: BadKarma81


Two good relevant quotes for that would be:
"When the people discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury, that will herald the end of the Republic."

When asked what kind of government the founding fathers had come up with, Benjamin Franklin said, "A republic, if you can keep it".

The people who signed the Declaration of Independence and Constitution for the United States were so expectant of corruption and tyranny creeping in that they purposely limited it's power in the attempt to keep it in check. In the end though, if the people themselves are corrupt, there is nothing left to stop the government from becoming the same kind of monster that other governments have all over the world throughout history.
 Quoting: Resister


You're 100% correct... part of the belief was that the system would only work if people could maintain a morally responsible existence, and/or that people as a whole were generally good and held the welfare of others in utmost importance.

In all honesty, it seems as if the founding fathers were socialist in nature (supportive of social democracy), but this idea was 120 or so years too late to be implemented into the founding of this country.

(weeeeeeee, I sound like a communist or socialist shill...)
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
07/10/2012 04:53 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
So basically you mean anarchy?

Human nature is so predictable that the moment you remove the government some power hungry asshole will take charge instead.
Resister (OP)

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07/10/2012 04:57 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
"People who cannot restrain their own baser instincts, who cannot treat one another with civility, are not capable of self-government." - Chuck Colson
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4488404


+1
 Quoting: HI.Lander


Ascendence of Sociopaths in US Governance

... the US government, in particular, is being overrun by the wrong kind of person. It's a trend that's been in motion for many years but has now reached a point of no return. In other words, a type of moral rot has become so prevalent that it's institutional in nature. There is not going to be, therefore, any serious change in the direction in which the US is headed until a genuine crisis topples the existing order. Until then, the trend will accelerate.

The reason is that a certain class of people – sociopaths – are now fully in control of major American institutions. Their beliefs and attitudes are insinuated throughout the economic, political, intellectual and psychological/spiritual fabric of the US.

[link to lewrockwell.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15030656


Very interesting (and long) article. I agree with a lot of what that writer said, but I will not be abandoning my home to be and international type because I believe that the principles that founded this nation are worth fighting for... and the grass really is not any greener anywhere else.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Resister (OP)

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07/10/2012 05:01 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
So basically you mean anarchy?

Human nature is so predictable that the moment you remove the government some power hungry asshole will take charge instead.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19502859


No. Self governance is not anarchy. That is a complete lack of government of any kind. Self governance is an educated and principled public deciding for itself how to live instead of being told and forced by an unrepresentative authoritarian few.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
Anonymous Coward
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07/10/2012 05:03 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
For the religious advocates of tyranny -

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7
And the Lord told him:
“Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king
.
8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

[link to www.biblegateway.com]

And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.
Resister (OP)

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07/10/2012 05:18 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15030656


Interesting exercise in circular logic.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
508527

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07/10/2012 05:24 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
white people, yes
Anonymous Coward
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07/10/2012 05:32 PM
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Re: Are people capable of self governance?


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15030656

I've spoken with Stefen in person, he is a kind person, and willing to debate issues with others. cool guy in general. This video explains the problem.
Resister (OP)

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07/10/2012 05:35 PM

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Re: Are people capable of self governance?
white people, yes
 Quoting: 508527


racist much?

Look, I enjoy a good discussion even if I disagree, but that crap has no place in this thread.
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787

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