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USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!

 
Laura Bow
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USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Q. What is APHIS proposing?
A. APHIS is proposing to revise its definition of “retail pet store” to close a loophole that has in some cases threatened the health of pets sold sight unseen over the Internet and via phone- and mail-based businesses. Under the current definition of “retail pet store,” which was developed over 40 years ago and predates the Internet, some breeders selling pets are taking advantage of a loophole that improperly exempts them from meeting the basic requirements of the Animal Welfare Act (AWA). The proposed rule will close this loophole, ensuring that animals sold over the Internet and via phone- and mail-based businesses are better monitored for their overall health and humane treatment. The proposal will restore the definition to its original intent so that it limits the retail pet store exemption to only those places of business and residence:

• that buyers physically enter to observe the animals available for sale prior to purchase and/ or to take custody of the animals after purchase, and

• where only the following animals are sold or offered for sale at retail for use as pets: Dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils, rats, mice, gophers, chinchilla, domestic ferrets, domestic farm animals, birds, and coldblooded species.


APHIS is also proposing to increase the number of breeding females from three to four that small hobby breeders of dogs, cats, and small exotic or wild mammals can own and still be exempt from licensing requirements. To meet the exemption requirements, these breeders can only sell the offspring of the breeding females that were born and raised on their premises, and sold for only pets or exhibition.


[link to docs.google.com (secure)] (copy/paste to view without downloading)

[link to www.aphis.usda.gov] - original PDF file


I had a thread posted on this a few weeks ago but wanted to remind people about this, the last day to comment is July 16. They are trying to convince people that this is about the "large scale puppy mills" and who will be targetted, however if that was the case, why do they specifically mention LIVESTOCK? In relation to dogs, this will hurt many small hobby breeders, because they may only have one or two litters a year but would have over the number of intact females permitted (4).

This is not about puppies, this is about a HUGE power grab!! Everyone needs to be aware what could happen if this actually goes through!

To comment to USDA about the proposal, go here:

[link to www.regulations.gov]

Last Edited by Laura Bow on 07/12/2012 09:04 AM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Cow Yard Sales are the wave of the future. LOL
Anonymous Coward
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Seeing as how the USDA doesn't monitor/inspect/regulate the factory farms they already have authority over, why give them more responsibility?

They didn't even shut down that crawfish manufacturer who was using guest workers that he basically worked 52 hours in a row with 4 hours off and locked in the factory so they couldn't escape. Another Walmart food supplier above the reach of the USDA.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 09:11 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Seeing as how the USDA doesn't monitor/inspect/regulate the factory farms they already have authority over, why give them more responsibility?

They didn't even shut down that crawfish manufacturer who was using guest workers that he basically worked 52 hours in a row with 4 hours off and locked in the factory so they couldn't escape. Another Walmart food supplier above the reach of the USDA.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19011703


Well, they would certainly be hiring more people to do these inspections...the fines are up to $10,000 for non-compliance, I believe.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 09:15 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Wow thank you for the pin!! hf This will not only personally affect me, as a hobby dog breeder, but people can't even imagine the impact this would cause...and that's just in the dog world!
AdHocBOHICA

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07/12/2012 09:21 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
DO NOT OBEY.........SIMPLE
Anonymous Coward
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07/12/2012 09:22 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
I have thought this probably should be done, considering you can buy poison dart frogs online.
AdHocBOHICA

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07/12/2012 09:27 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
I have thought this probably should be done, considering you can buy poison dart frogs online.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9494772


YOUR BREATHING NEEDS TO BE HEAVILY REGULATED..........STFU.
Anonymous Coward
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07/12/2012 09:34 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Well just how in the fuck do you propose that they implement the Number of the Beast without regulating the internet?
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 09:44 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
I have thought this probably should be done, considering you can buy poison dart frogs online.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9494772


lol
Anonymous Coward
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07/12/2012 09:48 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
maybe, could be, possibly, to try and prevent the sell of cows with mad cow disease. not everything the govn't does is a conspiracy.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 09:50 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
maybe, could be, possibly, to try and prevent the sell of cows with mad cow disease. not everything the govn't does is a conspiracy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8846100


Um...no, the reason they say they are implementing this is because there are too many sickly puppies sold online. However, when puppies are purchased and shipped, they all need to be veterinary health checked and certified before flying. However, the terminology lists 4 types of ALL domestic animals, including rats!
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 10:01 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
In the case of dog breeders, if the dogs are allowed to live in the house, the APHIS needs to determine whether the house falls under "humane standards"!! From the PDF:

If, however, a dog breeder allows their dogs to havefree run of the entire house, APHIS will assess whether
the home can house animals within the health and
humane standards contemplated by the AWA. If the
breeder has a kennel or cages that the dogs can stay
in inside the home that meet AWA standards, we would
consider that compliance with the primary enclosure
requirements has been achieved.
Sweetshrub

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07/12/2012 10:30 AM

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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Wow thank you for the pin!! hf This will not only personally affect me, as a hobby dog breeder, but people can't even imagine the impact this would cause...and that's just in the dog world!
 Quoting: Laura Bow

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
Anonymous Coward
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07/12/2012 10:35 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Wow thank you for the pin!! hf This will not only personally affect me, as a hobby dog breeder, but people can't even imagine the impact this would cause...and that's just in the dog world!
 Quoting: Laura Bow

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 10:42 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Wow thank you for the pin!! hf This will not only personally affect me, as a hobby dog breeder, but people can't even imagine the impact this would cause...and that's just in the dog world!
 Quoting: Laura Bow

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
Sweetshrub

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07/12/2012 10:55 AM

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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow

The issue here is that you are 'breeding' at all! It's irresponsible, whether or not you're making money - and at least professionals are made to meet legal standards in civilized countries or get shut down promptly. Those are lives, not toys for you to have a 'hobby' with. What you don't have a clue about yourself is common decency and mercy. As long as we have self-centered people crying 'NWO' and 'government power grab' whenever their selfish, greedy little schemes are interfered with, we lose all chance of being listened to when there's a real threat to our liberties looming ahead - and that's irresponsible of you too.
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07/12/2012 10:58 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Cattlemen can NOT sell sick cows (hoof & mouth etc..) at any local auction house in the U.S.

Do you want diseased cows in the food chain? This should have been done in 2001.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 10:58 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow

The issue here is that you are 'breeding' at all! It's irresponsible, whether or not you're making money - and at least professionals are made to meet legal standards in civilized countries or get shut down promptly. Those are lives, not toys for you to have a 'hobby' with. What you don't have a clue about yourself is common decency and mercy. As long as we have self-centered people crying 'NWO' and 'government power grab' whenever their selfish, greedy little schemes are interfered with, we lose all chance of being listened to when there's a real threat to our liberties looming ahead - and that's irresponsible of you too.
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Yeah, you're right, we should just euthanize all the animals like PETA and HSUS want. "Professionals" for breeding dogs? You don't see the problem with that??? You seem to think that someone that is not using this to turn a buck is somehow less knowledgeable than a person who would consider it a profession. Sounds like the person that doesn't have any decency or more likely, common sense, is you. You don't get it, they want to control the breeding of all animals sold "sight unseen", including livestock, ie. FOOD SOURCE FOR HUMANS. If you don't think that's a threat to liberty, then you're disillusioned.
Anonymous Coward
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07/12/2012 10:59 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Wow thank you for the pin!! hf This will not only personally affect me, as a hobby dog breeder, but people can't even imagine the impact this would cause...and that's just in the dog world!
 Quoting: Laura Bow

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


WOW. This is really how hobby breeders think? Do hobby breeders have a 2 year health guarantee on their pups? Do they make sure that the parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents from both sides were tested, and cleared for all health issues (Eyes, Hips, Heart, Thyroid). Do hobby breeders show the parents to ensure a third party is regulating and approving the animals to be used in a breeding program?

No - they dont. Why? Because all of these things cost money. And hobby breeders generally do not want to spend the time, effort, or money involved in doing all of these things. Sure, they pass those savings on to the customer (sometimes), but these savings in the long run end up costing the owners in health issues later on.

I would rather spend 2K on a dog that has been well bred, with a health guarantee of a minimal of 2 years, or adopt an animal in need, than spend $500 on an animal that will later break my heart and pocketbook.

Seriously, purebreds are scientifically bred - they do not exist in nature. Once a person is no longer breeding along scientific methods, you no longer have a purebred. Period. Throwing your pets together and selling the offspring - for a profit - is evilness itself. I am done with this argument, as I am sure your profits from your "hobby" rules over your ability to think logically.

Oh - and no respectable breeder HAS to sell their pups through the internet. The buyers come to them. Hobby breeding is one step up from puppy mills. I have witnessed hundreds of people who bring in their new puppy [generally sold to them at 6 weeks old (instead of 9 weeks which should be mandatory) and shipped via train or plane] spend thousands of dollars correcting health issues that should never have existed.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 10:59 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Cattlemen can NOT sell sick cows (hoof & mouth etc..) at any local auction house in the U.S.

Do you want diseased cows in the food chain? This should have been done in 2001.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17763690


So if they are already NOT PERMITTED to sell sick animals at an auction, how would this help?
Anonymous Coward
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07/12/2012 11:00 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Wow thank you for the pin!! hf This will not only personally affect me, as a hobby dog breeder, but people can't even imagine the impact this would cause...and that's just in the dog world!
 Quoting: Laura Bow

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


The correct term would be "Amateur Breeder", meaning one who breeds toward specific goals other than money, while aspiring toward expertise. This is the use intended in the term "Amateur Radio".

Unfortunately the term "amateur" as been misused in the country to mean of minimal or lesser expertise.
Laura Bow (OP)

User ID: 1158661
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07/12/2012 11:04 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
...

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


WOW. This is really how hobby breeders think? Do hobby breeders have a 2 year health guarantee on their pups? Do they make sure that the parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents from both sides were tested, and cleared for all health issues (Eyes, Hips, Heart, Thyroid). Do hobby breeders show the parents to ensure a third party is regulating and approving the animals to be used in a breeding program?

No - they dont. Why? Because all of these things cost money. And hobby breeders generally do not want to spend the time, effort, or money involved in doing all of these things. Sure, they pass those savings on to the customer (sometimes), but these savings in the long run end up costing the owners in health issues later on.


I would rather spend 2K on a dog that has been well bred, with a health guarantee of a minimal of 2 years, or adopt an animal in need, than spend $500 on an animal that will later break my heart and pocketbook.

Seriously, purebreds are scientifically bred - they do not exist in nature. Once a person is no longer breeding along scientific methods, you no longer have a purebred. Period. Throwing your pets together and selling the offspring - for a profit - is evilness itself. I am done with this argument, as I am sure your profits from your "hobby" rules over your ability to think logically.

Oh - and no respectable breeder HAS to sell their pups through the internet. The buyers come to them. Hobby breeding is one step up from puppy mills. I have witnessed hundreds of people who bring in their new puppy [generally sold to them at 6 weeks old (instead of 9 weeks which should be mandatory) and shipped via train or plane] spend thousands of dollars correcting health issues that should never have existed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Actually, yes they do! OFA hips, elbows, DM testing, TLI testing, DNA tested and offer a 2 year genetic MONEY return guarantee and I'm a hobby breeder :) You are thinking of a garbage breeder not a true hobby breeder focusing on their breed. There is something called buyer beware as well.

And you are incorrect that respectable breeders do not sell their pups on the internet, most breeders do have an internet website nowadays. If you have witnessed hundreds of people buying 6 week old puppies that are sickly, then something is VERY wrong. Pennsylvania state law will not allow an animal to be sold before 8 weeks of age, and if they are to be shipped they need a veterinary health certification within 10 days. With that said, I have never shipped a puppy, however I do have a website and have taken deposits after people have seen pictures. According to this regulation, that would no longer be allowed.

In addition, you're right about the scientific part as animals will no longer be able to be shipped. Breeders will not be able to obtain new bloodlines as most will be out of it due to the regulations, and bottlenecking will occur so this flies in the face of science as well.
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07/12/2012 11:05 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
...

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


The correct term would be "Amateur Breeder", meaning one who breeds toward specific goals other than money, while aspiring toward expertise. This is the use intended in the term "Amateur Radio".

Unfortunately the term "amateur" as been misused in the country to mean of minimal or lesser expertise.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19383635


No no.. Amateur breeders have professional mentors and are attemmpting to do things RIGHT. Including all health testing, showing, etc. Amateurs are like apprentices. Hobby breeders could care less about the quality of the breed and more about saving a buck and selling their pups for less stating "its just nature" to throw their 2 pets together and hope to sell the offspring as quickly as possible to get the most profit, with the least effort. The proper term for these people is "backyard breeder". They are scum. But they THINK they are doing the world a favor. So they are the worst kind of scum who dont even realize how scummy they are.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 11:06 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
...

Agreed about the feds' power grabs but for once, they're doing something right - for the wrong reasons, of course. Hobby breeding? That should be regulated, even stopped. We have millions of animals being put to death every day in this country because they cannot be adopted out. It hasn't occurred to these small-minded hobbyists that they shouldn't be exacerbating that problem by producing yet more? Why don't you start thinking of lives in the balance, instead of personal profit?
 Quoting: Sweetshrub


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


The correct term would be "Amateur Breeder", meaning one who breeds toward specific goals other than money, while aspiring toward expertise. This is the use intended in the term "Amateur Radio".

Unfortunately the term "amateur" as been misused in the country to mean of minimal or lesser expertise.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19383635

Perhaps that is an issue of semantics, however it is commonly known in the dog world that those that do not do it as a profession coin themselves to be hobby breeders, meaning they do it as a hobby and not their main source of revenue.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 11:08 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
A COMPARISON OF:

Responsible Hobby Breeders

vs

Backyard Breeders



[link to www.woodhavenlabs.com]
Anonymous Coward
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07/12/2012 11:12 AM
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...


Exactly. Hobby breeding?? Purebred animals are not a hobby, they are a science, and no respectable breeder would call themselves a hobby breeder - or be opposed to this bill.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


WOW. This is really how hobby breeders think? Do hobby breeders have a 2 year health guarantee on their pups? Do they make sure that the parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents from both sides were tested, and cleared for all health issues (Eyes, Hips, Heart, Thyroid). Do hobby breeders show the parents to ensure a third party is regulating and approving the animals to be used in a breeding program?

No - they dont. Why? Because all of these things cost money. And hobby breeders generally do not want to spend the time, effort, or money involved in doing all of these things. Sure, they pass those savings on to the customer (sometimes), but these savings in the long run end up costing the owners in health issues later on.


I would rather spend 2K on a dog that has been well bred, with a health guarantee of a minimal of 2 years, or adopt an animal in need, than spend $500 on an animal that will later break my heart and pocketbook.

Seriously, purebreds are scientifically bred - they do not exist in nature. Once a person is no longer breeding along scientific methods, you no longer have a purebred. Period. Throwing your pets together and selling the offspring - for a profit - is evilness itself. I am done with this argument, as I am sure your profits from your "hobby" rules over your ability to think logically.

Oh - and no respectable breeder HAS to sell their pups through the internet. The buyers come to them. Hobby breeding is one step up from puppy mills. I have witnessed hundreds of people who bring in their new puppy [generally sold to them at 6 weeks old (instead of 9 weeks which should be mandatory) and shipped via train or plane] spend thousands of dollars correcting health issues that should never have existed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Actually, yes they do! OFA hips, elbows, DM testing, TLI testing, DNA tested and offer a 2 year genetic MONEY return guarantee and I'm a hobby breeder :) You are thinking of a garbage breeder not a true hobby breeder focusing on their breed. There is something called buyer beware as well.

And you are incorrect that respectable breeders do not sell their pups on the internet, most breeders do have an internet website nowadays. If you have witnessed hundreds of people buying 6 week old puppies that are sickly, then something is VERY wrong. Pennsylvania state law will not allow an animal to be sold before 8 weeks of age, and if they are to be shipped they need a veterinary health certification within 10 days. With that said, I have never shipped a puppy, however I do have a website and have taken deposits after people have seen pictures. According to this regulation, that would no longer be allowed.

In addition, you're right about the scientific part as animals will no longer be able to be shipped. Breeders will not be able to obtain new bloodlines as most will be out of it due to the regulations, and bottlenecking will occur so this flies in the face of science as well.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


OK.. so maybe in YOUR situation you are a step above a BYB. IF you do all the testing on at least 3 generations back. Do you also show for conformation?

As for buyer beware: that is a major issue for me in general. Consumers DO not, and WILL not, look past the cute puppy and think about all these things. Its just not happening, no matter how much education they are provided. Shit, they cant even quit eating at McDonald's even though it is crap food that is essentially causing major health issues.

Having a website is not internet selling, or mail order.

And yes, something is VERY wrong in the breeding world. Just because you may be attempting to do things right, does not mean others are.

Sorry, there will be no lack of good breeding stock as the people who are already doing things correctly will not be affected.
Laura Bow (OP)

User ID: 1158661
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07/12/2012 11:12 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
What is a Hobby Breeder?

Note: this is written from the perspective of dog breeder hobbyists. While the same ethical principles apply to a hobby breeder's management of a breeding program for dogs or cats, there are some differences in dog and cat breeding practices, such as the appropriate times to breed, that are specific to each species.

Hobby Breeders are dedicated to the preservation of a particular breed of dog or cat.

We do not mass-produce animals. We do not breed our female animals at every estrus throughout their lives. We rarely make any profit from breeding a litter of kittens or puppies. Hobby breeders do not “make a living” from their endeavors and very few even derive a significant portion of their income from breeding their animals. Our litters do not buy us fancy boats or exotic vacations. We feel we've done well if a litter “pays for itself,” and occasionally there's a bit left over to buy new equipment or even attend a competition we would have skipped otherwise. There's nothing wrong with a breeder making a profit, of course, but it isn't the primary goal.

We test our potential breeding animals for known adverse conditions they might pass on to their offspring, to the extent that tests are available (DNA and other laboratory analyses, x-rays, physical exams by veterinarians with expertise in a condition). Some tests must be repeated annually to determine whether a late-developing condition has appeared. Even conditions that may not affect the animal's suitability as a pet and its quality of life are of concern to the breeder.

While tests do not yet exist for every condition in every breed, we support research to find a means of identifying heritable adverse conditions within our breeds so we can reduce occurrences in our litters. The same adverse conditions sometimes found in purebred dogs and cats are also present in mixed-breed animals if the ancestors had them. The breeding of purebreds does not create “genetic defects” and the crossing of breeds within a species does not eliminate them. Hobby Breeders are knowledgeable about their breed's health issues and take responsibility to breed away from them.

More at [link to www.dogplay.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6289134
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07/12/2012 11:16 AM
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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
A COMPARISON OF:

Responsible Hobby Breeders

vs

Backyard Breeders



[link to www.woodhavenlabs.com]
 Quoting: Laura Bow


Fair enough. I like the chart. So tell me - what makes the difference between a responsible hobby breeder and a "professional" breeder then?

Either way, sellig animals over the internet, or through mail order, is just wrong. These are sentient life forms, not commodities. I would think that responsible breeders - no matter the title of "hobby" or "professional" would be happy to see a regulation barring irresponsible breeders from shipping their pups all over the earth with no care as to their health and well being?
Sweetshrub

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07/12/2012 11:17 AM

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Re: USDA's proposal to regulate ALL ANIMALS sold over the internet, including livestock! HUGE POWER GRAB!!!
Yeah, you're right, we should just euthanize all the animals like PETA and HSUS want. "Professionals" for breeding dogs? You don't see the problem with that??? You seem to think that someone that is not using this to turn a buck is somehow less knowledgeable than a person who would consider it a profession. Sounds like the person that doesn't have any decency or more likely, common sense, is you. You don't get it, they want to control the breeding of all animals sold "sight unseen", including livestock, ie. FOOD SOURCE FOR HUMANS. If you don't think that's a threat to liberty, then you're disillusioned.
 Quoting: Laura Bow

Now you're talking nonsense. Neither PETA nor HSUS want to kill the animals; they want people to adopt them and spay and neuter to prevent more homeless animals in the system. There are no-kill shelters all over the country, begging for help because they're not getting enough, or any, funding from government to care for the populations they shelter. States do differ widely - mostly because of demographics in their voter base - in how much popular support for animal protection laws and no-kill shelters they get. If you love animals, you should be working for the ASPCA, not running a breeding operation.

You're not raising a 'food source,' are you? You're breeding dogs and civilized people do not eat 'man's best friend.' You are merely using that 'threat to liberty' because you're pissed that your hobby might get regulated. I have no doubt that government is in bed with big industry; every GLP'er already knows that, but your complaints are selfishly motivated and not born of any love and concern for the welfare of dogs in the country as a whole. You want the 'freedom' to breed irresponsibly and frankly, be it animals or humans, people like that need to be stopped.
Laura Bow (OP)

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07/12/2012 11:17 AM
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...


Bull. A person that breeds for a hobby means they are not focusing on money, would you want people called a "professional breeder" and use it as their occupation? Then money would be the main motivator, get it? You don't have a clue.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


WOW. This is really how hobby breeders think? Do hobby breeders have a 2 year health guarantee on their pups? Do they make sure that the parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents from both sides were tested, and cleared for all health issues (Eyes, Hips, Heart, Thyroid). Do hobby breeders show the parents to ensure a third party is regulating and approving the animals to be used in a breeding program?

No - they dont. Why? Because all of these things cost money. And hobby breeders generally do not want to spend the time, effort, or money involved in doing all of these things. Sure, they pass those savings on to the customer (sometimes), but these savings in the long run end up costing the owners in health issues later on.


I would rather spend 2K on a dog that has been well bred, with a health guarantee of a minimal of 2 years, or adopt an animal in need, than spend $500 on an animal that will later break my heart and pocketbook.

Seriously, purebreds are scientifically bred - they do not exist in nature. Once a person is no longer breeding along scientific methods, you no longer have a purebred. Period. Throwing your pets together and selling the offspring - for a profit - is evilness itself. I am done with this argument, as I am sure your profits from your "hobby" rules over your ability to think logically.

Oh - and no respectable breeder HAS to sell their pups through the internet. The buyers come to them. Hobby breeding is one step up from puppy mills. I have witnessed hundreds of people who bring in their new puppy [generally sold to them at 6 weeks old (instead of 9 weeks which should be mandatory) and shipped via train or plane] spend thousands of dollars correcting health issues that should never have existed.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Actually, yes they do! OFA hips, elbows, DM testing, TLI testing, DNA tested and offer a 2 year genetic MONEY return guarantee and I'm a hobby breeder :) You are thinking of a garbage breeder not a true hobby breeder focusing on their breed. There is something called buyer beware as well.

And you are incorrect that respectable breeders do not sell their pups on the internet, most breeders do have an internet website nowadays. If you have witnessed hundreds of people buying 6 week old puppies that are sickly, then something is VERY wrong. Pennsylvania state law will not allow an animal to be sold before 8 weeks of age, and if they are to be shipped they need a veterinary health certification within 10 days. With that said, I have never shipped a puppy, however I do have a website and have taken deposits after people have seen pictures. According to this regulation, that would no longer be allowed.

In addition, you're right about the scientific part as animals will no longer be able to be shipped. Breeders will not be able to obtain new bloodlines as most will be out of it due to the regulations, and bottlenecking will occur so this flies in the face of science as well.
 Quoting: Laura Bow


OK.. so maybe in YOUR situation you are a step above a BYB. IF you do all the testing on at least 3 generations back. Do you also show for conformation?

As for buyer beware: that is a major issue for me in general. Consumers DO not, and WILL not, look past the cute puppy and think about all these things. Its just not happening, no matter how much education they are provided. Shit, they cant even quit eating at McDonald's even though it is crap food that is essentially causing major health issues.

Having a website is not internet selling, or mail order.

And yes, something is VERY wrong in the breeding world. Just because you may be attempting to do things right, does not mean others are.

Sorry, there will be no lack of good breeding stock as the people who are already doing things correctly will not be affected.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6289134


Having a website is not internet selling, however taking a deposit and/or shipping a puppy is, even if you send people pictures or videos. If you think good breeders will not be affected, you need to Google this a bit more and find out the stance of the average hobby breeder, the TRUE hobby breeder. Not classified ads dogs which WON'T be affected anyway, so guess what? Someone can call up the people, go see the dogs and think...wow, nice dogs, nice puppies! Parents will still not be genetically tested, could even be brother and sister which can potentially be an issue, but hey it doesn't matter, you got to see them first, right?

This is not about the cute little puppies, this is about power and control. Unfortunately you cannot see that. BTW, what makes you think that the average person who is a hobby breeder will be able to spend the amount of money becoming licensed and inspected? I cannot, most other breeders may not either. Just because they are doing things correctly (and I am completely within my state laws, where they do inspect any kennel that has 26+ dogs and puppies in a calendar year) does not mean they will be able to comply with new regulations.

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