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Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?

 
Pookie
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07/13/2012 01:28 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Few things to take into consideration when debating whether humans have a single life (birth -> heaven/hell) or multiple lives (Reincarnation) - Simplified.

1. To many christians, the book (bible) states ultimate truth, therefore anything contradicting it receives automatically a negative or biased perspective. To christians reincarnation needs definitive proof, since its not directly mentioned in the bible.

2. Heaven and Hell, be it either one. Staying there for eternity will cause your soul to die inside. This is something i've thought of long long time. Considering heaven is pure bliss and good, everything good will simply lose interest within time, eternity is a REAALLLY long time to be just happy and positive and not getting any negativity on you, same goes for Hell. Pure negativinness will make you numb and ultimately accept negativity as "good" and what suits you, because its all you know.
(yes i know this paragraph doesnt make much sense)

3. Time, for some unknown reason anti-reincarnationists think its impossible to have 7 billion souls and 16th century only 500 million. Time is but an illusion, reincarnation does not mean you will automatically be born on the next day you have died. You could, and probably are living simultaneously multiple lives on earth right now. But our physical mind sometimes just cannot comprehend something outside linear time/space.


So yes i guess this post makes me automatically pro-reincarnation, but thats not completely true. I believe what ever you make of your "universe", your perspective is ultimately the truth for you. Christianity being good and easy choice for humans to take their belief into. You make your own world, your life, based on your built in beliefs. For physical/material reality to exist, people need to have ego and/or physical mind, something thats built in on their lifetime, to create experiences as being "new".
So basically every life is a "first", for the physical subject atleast, but for the higher mind (experiencer/the one who grows) it is not.
 Quoting: Zan


3. In addition to this--- anti-reincarnationists claim it not possible to have more people now than before. I fail to see how this disproves reincarnation AND supports the single life theory. Single life theory, in absolute terms, requires new souls to be 'born' indefinitely. Why can reincarnation not produce new souls as well??

The context of Salt's argument is a fallacy. Salt-- just because Hindus were (one of) the first to believe in reincarnation, does not make them the ultimate experts on the subject. You cannot disprove reincarnation (no one can) based on disproving a few Hindu inconsistencies.... just shows your narrow mind..

Ego is your demon, its both sad and pathetic.

Another theory worth investigating:

[link to www.pleiadiantalk.com]

Maybe reincarnation IS a bad thing, and yes the same Hindus you knock when its convenient, also agree that it is a bad thing--
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:28 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
...


twilight zone theme music plays

Obammba vote too, I bet
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1450718


Never have and never will vote for Obama. Any person who states they are a Christian and then stands on a podium and declares they are glad someone is dead (Bin Laden), isn't capable of leading me anywhere. LOL

It takes a contradictory mindset to proclaim both.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12339688


Hmm... I don't know... none of us is perfect. I'm a Christian and I'm pretty glad Hitler is dead... maybe I shouldn't be, I don't know... its appointed a time for all of us to die you know. I'm guessing I'll be pretty happy when I'm dead when it's all said and done with.

Just me musing here... Christianity is about Christ, not how all of us fall short of Him... Christians aren't sinless, we just sin less, and know who to pray to for forgiveness.

lol I'm just too serious, time to lighten up!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19232850


I don't expect Obama to be perfect. I just can't pick him to be my leader.

Christians don't sin any less than anyone else, they just know how to seek forgiveness and ease their minds of their own guilt.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12339688


Added note, Jesus way is the way. Forgive yourself and forgive others. Anyone who lives in guilt will become ill.

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off is a parable about it. Meaning get rid of your guilt, get up move on, and try harder the next day.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:29 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
time travel? maybe humans are time travelers. when we pass on we review and then choose when to return to complete our journey. maybe we go back in time as well. humans are time machines. wow , what a thought!
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:34 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Christan reincarnation??
What bible teaches you about reality? It is too materialistic.
It only says what you or what you do not in this world. It gave you 10 commandments and it is just meant to control the population.
Christ teachings are great. It is only teaches you how to become better human.
Enough to attract masses?
He doesn't tell you what this universe is? What is truth? Everything is kept as a secret.
That is why most people wanted to learn eastern religion. There is truth. The truth they didn't what you to see. Keep minds open. This world is not real. Everything is "Maya"
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:34 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
forget the book

just go inside and ask

Everything you seek can be found WITHIN
 Quoting: msz


Bravo
clappa
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:35 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Silver Birch anyone???
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:36 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
time travel? maybe humans are time travelers. when we pass on we review and then choose when to return to complete our journey. maybe we go back in time as well. humans are time machines. wow , what a thought!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11293483


Close. We step out of Heaven time to experience something (a life), learn from it and then go back to where we came from.

Once we learn enough, we don't come back. Reincarnation is not a bad thing as some here think. It is no different than a child being born and learning to walk, talk, drive a car.

Once we evolve enough we no longer reincarnate.

The only reason I'm sharing any of this is because I have no intention of coming back again. In my NDE, I agreed to come back for someone else and was told this would be the last trip. But I had to come back or start all over again on this life experience.

Let me make it clear, I don't want to come back anymore. LOL
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:38 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
I've seen more tangible evidence to support reincarnation than I have supporting the christian faith.

In fact, trying to disprove reincarnation through bible scripture is irony at it's finest.

This thread is laughable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9274569


+1
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:38 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Obviously fact, if you don't know it by now
Eat some Shrooms and then you will know reincarnation is fact
Zan

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07/13/2012 01:39 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Incorrect on several points:

#1 - Reincarnation doesn't need definitive proof to Christians; it is directly refuted in the Bible. Plz read more of this thread for specific instances in the Bible.

#2 - You know this, how? B/c you've thought about it a really long time? Truth is, none of us can imagine what life in eternity is like.

#3 - Not sure if we're to really take this too seriously - you're just theorizing here...

Accepting Christ is the only way to salvation, I pray God's Grace on you that one day it's His plan for you to see the truth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19232850


1. What i meant was. Bible is the ultimate truth for christians, therefore if bible says something is "refuted" or denied or said it doesnt exist, to christians this is Truth. Therefore there is no debating about issues to which the bible contradicts.

2. Imagine being in a place you absolutely love, for just a year or maybe ten years. and you'll get bored even in your mind.

3. Time being 4th dimension to this physical reality we live in, it only means its linear. Like if you would have 2D movies, they dont have depth. Therefore only one temporal/time dimention means linearity. From what i've understood current physics theories and some "facts" state time being non-linear, and there existing more dimentions outside 3+1. Theorizing -> yes, philosophying/thinking by myself -> yes, basing this theory on scientific material i've come across -> yes.

I have been in faith with christ, at the end it wasnt enough for me, seemed to flawed, didnt resonate with me.
Our thinking is affected/constructed by reasoning, emotions, beliefs and intuition. Would i have simply leaned towards only beliefs taught to me by others (church, society) i would have denied all 3 other attributes that builds "me".
Therefore for me, accepting Christ as my savior was illogical, un-intuitive and it did not feel right. But what that experience taught me, is accepting that some people are very ok believing in Christ, and i am ok with this.
All perspectives of the whole are equal, there is none "better" than the other.
This leads into thinking "wtf, murderers, pedofiles, so on, you accept those too?!!!". Well... Yes. I do not accept their actions in my own reality, but to them, being the subjects of their lifes, what creates them. Their view/perspective can be judged only by themselves. Because for the "whole", for God, every part of it, is a part of itself, therefore no perspective is "invalid", nor true.
This doesnt mean the universe is 50/50 bad/good, this means duality where exists a choice. Subjects always have a choice to take whichever action they wish, therefore no action is pre-determined, and only the subject can determine whether the action taken was bad/good. Until the point of choice, the action remains neutral.
Reincarnation means souls experiencing all different sort of actions, creating them, also creating meaning for them and polarity for them. This is why reincarnation "growth", isnt necessarily towards good. "old souls" are just more experienced.
<3 hrhr ;p
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:39 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Truth..you will reincarnate..does not matter what you think...or what you think you are reading
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2221227


You will reincarnate if you want to come back again ;) We have a choice on the other side...

hf
 Quoting: ~Angels~


There's no choice. Unless you become fully enlightened like the buddha you have absolutely zero choice. You are stuck in this samsara and cycle of life and death. The whole point of enlightenment is to stop this cycle.

peacepeacepeace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1711362


actually, Buddha's self-proposed enlightenment means that he ceases to exist on the cycle of birth and rebirth. technically that means that he ceases to exist completely.

that's a goal to strive for?
 Quoting: Salt


Salt, please do not speak like you are an expert on all teachings. You have absolutely zero understanding of the Buddhas teachings, so stop now, before you make a fool of yourself.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:40 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
I've seen more tangible evidence to support reincarnation than I have supporting the christian faith.

In fact, trying to disprove reincarnation through bible scripture is irony at it's finest.

This thread is laughable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9274569


+1
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3632012


bump
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:40 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Reincarnation is pure fiction!

But temporary blending of spirits is biblical.
This gift does not interfere with Jesus words or resurrection.
Once the mission is complete the blended spirit return to where it belong before.
How you think the 2 witnesses will appear in the Earth?
There is no other form but just by blending of their spirits with some people here from our actual times.
Once their mission is complete those spirits from ancient prophets will return to where tehy belong.
So there is no confusion, no double death or tose things.
Thing are simple if God reveals it to you!
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:40 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
You're welcome!

To others on the thread who question this, please try to understand that Christ Himself said that no man comes to the Father but by Him.

People can either believe that or not, and live your life accordingly. Pretty simple when you get down to it... you just can't later say that you weren't told or that you weren't given a choice.

God loves us all enough to let us know where we stand with Him, and to give a choice on what we do about it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19232850


Now try and understand the state of consciousness that Christ would have been in when he spoke those words.

Clearly, when he said ‘through me’ he would not have been talking about his own personal identity.

The whole point of his teaching was to die to your identity not glorify it.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:43 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Christan reincarnation??
What bible teaches you about reality? It is too materialistic.
It only says what you or what you do not in this world. It gave you 10 commandments and it is just meant to control the population.
Christ teachings are great. It is only teaches you how to become better human.
Enough to attract masses?
He doesn't tell you what this universe is? What is truth? Everything is kept as a secret.
That is why most people wanted to learn eastern religion. There is truth. The truth they didn't what you to see. Keep minds open. This world is not real. Everything is "Maya"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17310937



+100000000

clappa
SaveTheLivingEntities​

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07/13/2012 01:48 PM

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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
I can refute all your arguments against transmigration of the soul but I'm afraid that they will get lost in this huge post and all my effort would be in vain. Would you mind if I PM'd you OP? I started this Transmigration of the Soul topic here Thread: YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS IS A PRODUCT OF ALL YOUR PAST LIVES ***Transmigration of the Soul: Proof of Re-Incarnation*** ( 11 part video documentary )

I'd be glad to discuss it with you, maybe we could have an official Q and A session that we could post publicly and civilly?
"A sense of common interest can be fostered among individuals, if they know that they are inter-connected, are parts of one Organic System and are the sons and daughters of one Father. Here is the task of all religions; to teach people that all beings of the world are closely inter-related. Although steadfastness or firm belief in God (Nistha) according to some particular faith and eligibility of the individual is congenial for healthy spiritual growth of every individual, religious bigotry which begets enmity is condemnable, as it is against the real interest of the individual and society. Real religion teaches love for one another. Lord Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu propagated the cult of all-embracing Divine Love which brings universal brotherhood on a transcendental plane.

(Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja )


"If one loves Krishna, he must love Lord Jesus also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus he must love Krishna too. If he says, "Why shall I love Krishna? I shall love Jesus," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus? I shall love Krishna", then he has no knowledge either. If one understands Krishna, then he will understand Jesus. If one understands Jesus, you'll understand Krishna too"

(Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg, May 12, 1969 / Columbus - Ohio)

Transmigration Of The Soul. All you need to know about REINCARNATION

Thread: YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS IS A PRODUCT OF ALL YOUR PAST LIVES ***Transmigration of the Soul: Proof of Re-Incarnation*** ( 11 part video documentary ) link for thread
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:48 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Easy... fiction to the inth degree and beyond! Anyone with any kind of logical sense doesn't need any more proof than the creation all around them. When we die, we don't come back again as anything else, not even another person.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:53 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Shut up you old dirt clod...
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:53 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Using bible quotes to "prove" or disprove anything is frankly laughable.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 01:57 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
You're welcome!

To others on the thread who question this, please try to understand that Christ Himself said that no man comes to the Father but by Him.

People can either believe that or not, and live your life accordingly. Pretty simple when you get down to it... you just can't later say that you weren't told or that you weren't given a choice.

God loves us all enough to let us know where we stand with Him, and to give a choice on what we do about it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19232850


Now try and understand the state of consciousness that Christ would have been in when he spoke those words.

Clearly, when he said ‘through me’ he would not have been talking about his own personal identity.

The whole point of his teaching was to die to your identity not glorify it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1410221


Let our ego die is another way to put it.

Stop attacking others and love others as ourselves.
khan
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07/13/2012 01:58 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
This is copyrighted information presented under the Fair Use Doctrine of the United States Copyright Act (section 107 of title 17) which states: 'the fair use of a copyrighted work...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.' In practice the courts have decided that anything which does not financially harm the copyright holder is fair use.


Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?

What is Reincarnation? Before the 1960s, it was called "Transmigration of the Soul". This belief is rooted in Eastern religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism.

What does "Transmigraton of the Soul" teach? Basically it taught that at death the soul would be reborn into another animal, human, plant, or god. According to this teaching, the lowest life form was a clod of dirt. There was only one thing worse than that...being reborn as a woman.

This "sexist" belief did not sit well with Western society, so the belief was modified into what we now know as "Reincarnation".

Easterners who believed in "Transmigration of the Soul" would often refuse to kill a cockroach because of their belief that the roach could have been one of their ancestors.

Westerners who believe in "Reincarnation" don't have this same regard for the animal and plant kingdom. Basically, their belief is that we only come back as someone else.

What the belief in Reincarnation does do is that it denies any form of judgment after death. What does the bible say?

Hebrews 9:27 states "It is appointed unto man to die once, then judgment." Since the Bible is God's spoken word to man, then this verse should emphatically prove that reincarnation is a myth.

What are some other Bible verses that plainly show "Reincarnation" to be a lie. How about Second Corinthians 5:8 which says We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. What does this mean? That at death, believers in Christ are immediately in the presence of God..their bodies go to the grave but their spirit and soul go to God. Non-believers go to a place to await judgment.

Revelation 20:11-15 refers to the Great White Throne judgment when all non-believers are judged for their works and then cast into the lake of fire.

1st Corinthians 3:11-15 is the Judgment Seat of Christ in which believers are judged for their works which will determine what their role in eternity will be.

Reincarnation has no place in the bible and should have no place in your life.

Plato believed that all souls existed in harmony with God in some kind of an energy state. Then as the love towards God from these souls faded, they were cast out into a human body. This was called sin. In order for the soul to reconcile itself to God, it had to be purified through reincarnation.

This belief spits in the face of what Jesus did on the cross. He willingly gave his life to atone for our sins and it was his sacrifice that reconciles us to God.

Some argue that since Jesus is coming a second time, then that is proof of reincarnation. Scripture does not say anything about Jesus being reborn a second time. What it does say is that He will return as "King of kings, and Lord of lords" Rev 19:16.

Matthew 24:30 states "and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, they shall see the Son of man (Jesus) coming in the clouds of heaven with power and glory." Jesus WILL NOT be born a second time....He is in heaven now returning to Earth when His will has been fulfilled.
Jesus existed before he was born as a man. In fact, Jesus is God according John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made: without him nothing was made that has been made. Verse 10 - He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. Verse 14 - The Word became flesh (Jesus Christ) and made his dwelling among us.

In John Chapter 17, Jesus is praying and he says these words And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began..

Obviously, Jesus existed before he came into the world as man. Scriptures are very clear that after you die, that judgment is held...your soul and spirit instantly go to God or they instantly go to Hades to await the Great White Throne Judgment.

(50% rule... for more visit: [link to www.anunseenworld.com]



Scriptures That Expressly Reject Reincarnation

A key verse is Hebrews 9:27, quoted at the head of this paper. On its face it seems perfectly clear. "Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" We live one life, die one death and then we face judgment. There is no second, third, fourth, tenth or hundredth reincarnation and return to life on earth. We live one life on earth and we die once.

The context makes this even more clear. In Hebrews chapters 6-10 the author is comparing the "new covenant" of Jesus Christ with the old covenant established by Moses. This is one of the main purposes of his letter. Chapters 9-10 compare the blood sacrifices of the old covenant, which were made each year by the High Priest, with the blood sacrifice of the new covenant, which was made "once for all" (Hebrews 9:12) by Jesus Christ with his own blood. The text continues,

"Nor did he [Jesus Christ] enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people..." (Hebrews 9:25-28)

Chapter 10 emphasizes again the "once for all" nature of Jesus' sacrifice. "We have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (10:10). "This priest [Jesus Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins" (10:12) "By one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" (10:13). The author is comparing a repeated event - the yearly sacrifice made by the High Priest - with a one-time, "once for all" event - the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. To emphasize his point he compares it with another one-time event - man lives one life and dies once.

The Greek word translated "once", hapax, normally means "once for all", "once" (in the sense of "only once"). The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Colin Brown, ed.) says it means "once in contrast to twice, thrice, etc... .and once in the sense of an event that cannot be repeated" (Vol 2, p. 717). That is the sense in which it is consistently used in Hebrews chapters 9 and 10. Hapax is used twice in Hebrews 9:27: man dies once (hapax) and Christ was sacrificed once (hapax). The rest of the passage makes it clear that Christ sacrificed himself once for all time, once and only once. Hence verse 27 is saying that men die once and only once. "Once" must have the same meaning in both parts of the verse. Any other meaning would wholly defeat the comparison which the writer of Hebrews is making.

It is hard to imagine how any Scriptural text could be clearer or more explicit.

Those who say the Bible is silent on this subject need also to deal with two Old Testament texts. Ecclesiastes says of the dead, "Never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 9:6).) This seems to me to say clearly that once we die we will never again see life on this earth. (The New Testament does say that in the end times some will come back to earth to reign with Jesus, but that has nothing to do with reincarnation.)

Job asks, "If a man die, will he live again?" (Job 14:14). The answer to this rhetorical question is obviously "No"; in verse 12 he says "So man lies down and does not rise, till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep." Again, this seems to me an explicit denial of reincarnation.

The Bible is not silent on this issue. It explicitly denies reincarnation, In addition, as I shall show in a moment, it teaches a number of things that are totally inconsistent with the idea of reincarnation. First I want to deal with two other matters.


Was Elijah Reincarnated?

Reincarnationists argue that Scripture says that Elijah was reincarnated and that that establishes that all men are reincarnated. The argument has no validity. Because it is so often heavily emphasized I shall deal with it in some detail.

Malachi 4:5 says "I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and terrible day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children..." In Matthew 17:10-13 (and the parallel passage in Mark 9:12-13) the disciples asked Jesus about this prophecy and Jesus replied "I tell you, Elijah has already come." Matthew adds that they "understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist." Reincarnationists argue that Jesus was saying that John the Baptist was a reincarnation of Elijah, and that this establishes that Jesus recognized and believed in reincarnation.

There are a number of flaws in this argument.

(1) Elijah never died; he was taken up bodily to heaven (2 Kings 2:1-18). How could someone who never died be reincarnated? Whatever may have happened with Elijah tells us nothing about what happens to those who die.

(2) When John the Baptist was asked "Are you Elijah?" he replied "I am not" (John 1:21).
How do we reconcile this apparent inconsistency? Was John the Baptist wrong? I suggest that John was speaking literally and Jesus was speaking metaphorically. Literally John was not Elijah, returned in the flesh. Metaphorically John was performing the function of Elijah - to call Israel to turn around and repent (see 1 Kings 18:37) - and in that sense he satisfied the prophecy of Malachi. This is confirmed by the fact that, before John was born, an angel of the Lord applied to him the prophecy of Malachi, saying, "He will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children..." (Luke 1:17).

(3) We should not go beyond what the words of Scripture say. What Jesus said to his disciple was that the prophecy of Malachi had been fulfilled. That was the question they had asked him. When he said "Elijah is come" that is all we can be sure he meant. It is possible that he might have meant that Elijah had come in the flesh, in the form of John the Baptist. Or he may have meant only that John had come "in the spirit and power of Elijah" as the angel said. All we can be sure of is that he said that Malachi's prophecy had been fulfilled.

(4) Even if Jesus meant that Elijah had returned in the flesh that would not mean he was reincarnated. How could he have been, since he never died?

(5) Apparently there was a view current that some of the prophets might come back. Assuming that they could come back - and we have no evidence of this except for this passage about Elijah - this would tell us nothing about what happens with most people.

(6) Wherever possible, we should interpret Scripture so as not to conflict with other passages in Scripture. The more reasonable interpretation of this passage is that Jesus was not talking about reincarnation. We should not press an unlikely interpretation on it which would create a conflict with Hebrews 9:27 and with much else in Scripture.


Judgment

"And after that to face judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). Scripture makes it absolutely clear that a time will come when we all have to face judgment. "We will all stand before God's judgment seat" (Romans 14:10; see also 2 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 12:23; 1 Peter 4:5). Many of the texts talk about a judgment at the end times, but for the moment I want to concentrate simply on the fact that, whenever it occurs, there will be a judgment. The result of that judgment is very clear. Some will go to eternal life with God in a state of blessedness. Others will go to eternal punishment.

In reincarnation thinking there is no such judgment. If we have done badly in one lifetime, there is always another, and another, and another chance. We grow, by a series of "learning" experiences in successive reincarnations, into a state where we can be united with whatever god or universal force the reincarnationist conceives of. There is no eternal punishment. There is no Hell. And this state of union with universal force is pretty vague and indefinite. There is no real Heaven.

Most reincarnationists recognize this. Indeed one of the arguments they make for reincarnation is that it avoids the whole idea of judgment and Hell. (See, for example, Geddes MacGregor, "Reincarnation in Christianity, a New Vision of the Role of Rebirth in Christian Thought", Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, Il, 1978, pp 2, 20, 114). This is why we were attracted to reincarnation in the first place, and why many are attracted to it.

No one likes to think about judgment or punishment. But God is a just God and a holy God. He cannot tolerate evil. If we persist in holding on to evil he cannot allow us in his presence and remain holy. He wants all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), and he has set it up so that salvation is available to everyone (John 3:16), but we have to come to him on his terms. If he has found it necessary to set up a system that involves judgment and eternal punishment, who are we to say that he is wrong? His ways and his thoughts are far higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8-9). We should not try to make him conform to our human standards. "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" (Romans 9:20). If we profess to believe in Scripture we must accept all of Scripture according to its own terms. I submit that it is not possible to accept what Scripture says about judgment and eternal punishment, and to believe in reincarnation. They cannot stand together. One or the other has to go.

[link to www.scriptureinsights.com]



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PLAIN AND SIMPLE LOGIC AND REASON - Non-Biblical

I. Reincarnation is Unworkable

The goal of reincarnation is to work off all bad karma until the "sound of silence" (the primordial state of the universe) returns once more. But there is a problem here. To believe that souls are working off their bad karma and gathering good karma, assumes that people are learning and improving. Things are getting better and each succeeding life is more enriched. By every rotation of the wheel, souls are getting closer to Nirvana. That is false.

To forever disprove that theory, all we have to do is visit India. That is the nation where reincarnation has been taught so forcefully for the longest period of time. There is where bad karma has been worked off and good karma has been building for centuries. Millions of people should be living easier and easier lives as they climb to higher life forms. Are they? No. India bears tragic witness to the failure of such a philosophy. Instead of being a glowing light for the world, India agonizes in rampant poverty, starvation, suffering and chaos. Its suffering increases daily. Millions of poor souls quietly despair and prepare to die, hoping that something better will be found in the next life.

Hindu followers defend the failure in India. They say that we should not "equate reincarnation with progress." They argue that reincarnation "only provides the opportunity for progress." That is disappointing. The very religion that calls for progress toward Nirvana does not guarantee progress? Why? Because there is no incentive to improve.

One cannot improve on a mistake he can't remember. If a person doesn't have any recollection of his past in the next life, he has no reason whatever to improve. Reincarnation sends you around again and again, but teaches you nothing. You remember nothing and improve none at all. Also, if you believe you are going around again and again, there is no motivation to change or improve anything right now. Generations come and go without progression in such a system. That is why the social order of most Hindu nations is below standard. The poor and uneducated languish in misery, generation after generation.

Karma can work only if people are getting better. And the truth is, people are not. If I do evil in life number one, I must pay for my bad Karma when I reincarnate. But if, in life number two, I do more wickedness when I am supposed to be burning off the bad from my first life -- then I have to pay for that new evil in life number three. But there I do more wickedness -- the cycle is endless and degenerates as it turns. I get further and further away from perfection, not closer.



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2. Reincarnation is Illogical

A young man proudly announced to an older man, "I am a firm believer in reincarnation. It has all the answers for me." "Really?" asked the older man. "Tell me about it so I can believe it too. How many times have you been reincarnated?" "Uh, I don't know," stammered the youth. "What were you before you got to this point?" "I don't know." "What will you be next time?" "I don't know." How many more times must you go around before you are perfected?" "I don't know." "Where can you go to get the answers?" "I don't know." "Then how can you say it has all the answers?" asked the older man. "It doesn't have any answers. I will just stay with the Bible. Its truth is clear, plain and invites investigation. It has all the answers for everyone."

In reincarnation there are no answers. And where is the proof? The explanations that it offers us are totally lacking. The brain just cannot logically accept some of the things it teaches. For example, reincarnationists teach:

*That the world's population is basically stable. One Hindu writer said, "As one dies, another is born to take his place."

*Even when war or natural disaster reduces the population in one place, other places are experiencing prosperity and population growth. Thus overall, the world's population remains stable.

*There will, therefore, always be just enough souls to be reborn into all infant bodies, for there is a corresponding number of deaths and births.

*The human soul is not created but is eternal. Thus no new souls are being created to enter the cycle of rebirths.

*When a soul is sufficiently purified, it is absorbed back into "being" (out of our world into Nirvana).

The problems in such teaching are obvious: First, if no new souls are being created, yet the number of old souls are being absorbed back into "being," it should follow that the world population is decreasing. This is not true. Instead there are more people alive in this present generation than in any previous one.

Consider the following statistics of growth in the world:

A.D. 1575 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 500 Million people

1825 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 Billion people

1925 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 Billion people

1975 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Almost 4 Billion People

Second, since the world's population is increasing so rapidly, it is only obvious that there are not enough old souls to fit these new bodies. Where are they to come from? Does that mean that there are bodies walking around with no souls?

To answer this dilemma, many Hindu devotees claim that Karma is changing -- sending the needed souls up from insects and animals, evolving them into humans. They agree the world has more humans today, but claim we have less insects. However, that is not true either. And even if it were, why should the law of Karma change to accommodate the need for extra souls? And if karma changed, it cannot be a law at all. Personalities change, laws don't.

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III. Reincarnation is Unjust

A mother brought her son to school for the first day of instruction. She went to the headmaster and said, "My son John is very shy, so if he misbehaves, just slap the student next to him, and John will learn his lesson and behave." Everybody knows that her suggestion was silly. Such could not be practiced because it is unjust. John has to face his own mistakes and take his own discipline.

And that is a huge problem with reincarnation: it is unjust.

Adolf Hitler ordered the deaths of at least six million jewish people in his lifetime. It could be said that he was responsible for the death of 60 million people all over the world; not to mention the evil he inflicted on those who survived. When he died in 1945, can you imagine the karma built up against him? Perhaps he has 60 million reincarnations of suffering to go through before getting back to where he was before he killed the jewish people or started World War II.

Let's assume that in 1960 (after a few short lives as a bug, a snake, three mice and a dog) Hitler is reincarnated as a crippled baby girl in New York City named Ruth Jones. Ruth has no idea that she is really Adolf Hitler reincarnated or that she is suffering for the crimes of the Nazi Fuhrer. It is at this point that karma justice breaks down completely. Hitler is gone, and his personality actually ceased to exist in 1945. Little Ruth now bears the massive burden of Hitler's karmic debt. She did nothing wrong, but karma strikes here anyway!

And little Ruth is only the first in a series of 60 million miserable lives spawned by the evil of Hitler. Ruth has to die in distress to let the next body pay for more karma. Now Hitler has affected the lives -- not just of 60 million who died in the war, but 60 million reincarnated people who are paying for the past deeds of their predecessors.

We are up to 120 million people now, and that is not even considering the sins committed by these 120 million that they must pay for later. And where is Hitler in all this? He hasn't paid for anything. Do you begin to see the injustice?

Reincarnation says that, in life, each of us is responsible for our own actions. Yet we are not. In death, the personality is extinguished, and a new personality comes back into the world to pay the burden or karma. The new personality knows nothing, but has to pay for everything. This is unjust.

Here is Ruth -- the poor child born with a horrible defect that will limit or shorten her life. Let's go into her room. We walk over to the bed where she lies. We look at her and then at her mother suffering along with Ruth. We offer a good word of comfort: "This child is working off Hitler's karma." Ruth has no chance because she cannot do any good or evil. Ruth dies without knowing what she did or how to improve. This is totally unjust.

But enough about the evil man. What about the righteous man? His lot in life is also unjust. Consider Rasheeb, a Hindu who gives himself totally to righteousness. He is promised in the Bhagavad-Gita:

"For one who worships Me, giving up all his activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, who has fixed his mind upon Me, O son of Prtha, for him I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death. Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt (12:6-8).

But the problem is this: Rasheeb dies. Between one life and the next, every single observable characteristic that defines Rasheeb is destroyed. When he is reincarnated to the next life, the next body and mind reaps the reward. What good did it do the righteous Rasheeb if only a blank mind and soul comes into the world again to enjoy the good karma of the past?

If reincarnation is really karma, or the "law of justice," why not give the person a full vision of what he has done in his past life. That would be justice. Let him remember his good deeds and his flaws in his past life. Thus he could both understand his predicament and correct his life for the future.

[link to www.churches-of-christ.net]
 Quoting: Salt


I agreed for mathematical prove , for the incarnation that is totally failed all time. but they keep borrowing figure from unseen spaces like other realm. all are just unbelievable story, most things is who draw the rules and safe guard that ?
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 02:02 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Here is a really good question for Christians:

If Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven why does God give Jewish, Muslims babies. Or does he just give them the babies he doesn't want coming back to Heaven?

Because if Christians are right, they are the only ones who can raise a baby to be acceptable to God by teaching them about Jesus.

Wouldn't that whole concept make God an ass? LOL
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12339688


I need an answer to this question above. When I was in Heaven, I was told everyone comes back to Heaven. I need a Christian to prove it otherwise.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 02:05 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
forget the book

just go inside and ask

Everything you seek can be found WITHIN
 Quoting: msz


And when I do that, the answer I get is that we have one life to live, no more, no less.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 02:06 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
There is also plan B...

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
 Quoting: Salt

i think this points to the idea that some will be changed while alive. in other words, the people who are living when Jesus raptures his people upon his second coming.
 Quoting: Salt


Salt, come on. Don't you smell anything fishy about the so-called "rapture"? Yeah, this planet and its people are all messed up, but assuming some invisible angels (aka: UFOs) will come from the sky to "harvest" and "rapture" people is something to be extremely suspicious at best.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 02:07 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
forget the book

just go inside and ask

Everything you seek can be found WITHIN
 Quoting: msz


And when I do that, the answer I get is that we have one life to live, no more, no less.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18898068


Then live it to the best of your ability and it will be good enough.
khan
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07/13/2012 02:07 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?

...


yes it is possible. i sincerely hope not because the idea of reincarnation is detestable.
 Quoting: Salt


Why detestable? Because its not a Christian concept?

Couldnt it be seen as a hopeful scenario? To accumulate more wisdom about our true nature? To be given more than one opportunity to 'get it right?'

And the next obvious question would be what do you hope to happen? Resurrection?

Most people who believe in resurrection have no idea what this concept entails. It is in fact the product of Jewish Messianic theory which says that a Jewish priest-king will one day establish an earthly paradise and all the righteous jewish people who died before the establishment of "the Kingdom" will be raised from the dead to enjoy the rewards of remaining faithful to Jehovah. Since they are coming back to this earth, they need their body back i.e. they need to undergo bodily resurrection.

The problem with the Messianic theory of the soul is that it is incompatible with the God theory of the soul that talks of an immaterial heaven and immaterial soul. What possible meaning could physical resurrection have in a non-physical afterlife?

The Jehovah's Witnesses claim that 144,000 souls will enjoy an immaterial existence in heaven with God, while the rest of the Jehovah's Witnesses will have to settle for a material terrestrial paradise. This reveals the extent to which radically different views of the soul have been combined in crazy combinations.

The Jehovah's Witnesses also claim that all non Witnesses will be annihilated. How is it possible for an immortal soul to cease to exist?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18393173


show me how reincarnation is a hopeful idea. because according to the Buddha and Hindu teachings, it is a very bad thing that is almost inescapable.
 Quoting: Salt




Buddha and Hindu said you can escape from reincarnation by becoming like them which could take million of life to fulfill the good karma, good deeds, and talent. Ohh million + 60years = 60millions year to fulfill and one karma bring back to backward life for some time. good logic but funny one.

This idea was introduced when somebody asked them why i'm poor/ugly/ & how to become rich/beautiful. easy answer is that your karma of former life which you can't see but only I can see your. So trust me what I said is truth.do good thing in this life which you will become rich/beautiful in next. convincing someone to do good is great but should not lie. any way at that epoch they only know this way than doing good things will rise communities blah blah.
Beso

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07/13/2012 02:08 PM

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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
bump for night crew. lots of important reading here
 Quoting: Salt



Hey:)

Is it ok if you are 'reincarnated' into the same body?


?
 Quoting: Daniel's Seventieth Seven 19635944


gawd i hope not. i am not too happy about the one i got. i wait with baited breath to be able to drop this skin suit for good.

weird, i was just thinking of you earlier today. wondering where you were hiding.
 Quoting: Salt


Sorry....I was raised christian as well.....I'm not sure where I stand on this reincarnation issue, have mixed emotions regarding it....however, if you are going to rely and believe everything written in the Bible for ABSOLUTE certainty.....it does say this:

Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Last Edited by Beso on 07/13/2012 02:09 PM
~If everyone would take responsibility for their actions or lack of, then we could all be free~
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 02:09 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Here is a really good question for Christians:

If Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven why does God give Jewish, Muslims babies. Or does he just give them the babies he doesn't want coming back to Heaven?

Because if Christians are right, they are the only ones who can raise a baby to be acceptable to God by teaching them about Jesus.

Wouldn't that whole concept make God an ass? LOL
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12339688


I need an answer to this question above. When I was in Heaven, I was told everyone comes back to Heaven. I need a Christian to prove it otherwise.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 12339688


You don't need a Christian for that, just look in the Bible. There it states that when the soul leaves the body, it returns to the one who created it.

The Bible also talks about those who never had the chance to make a choice, that they will be given the choice in the end to choose who they want to be with.

If you all would spend a little time reading, the Bible will give you all of the answers you seek.
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 02:11 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Why was this pinned.. unpin this bastard!
Anonymous Coward
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07/13/2012 02:11 PM
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Re: Reincarnation: Fact or fiction?
Easy... fiction to the inth degree and beyond! Anyone with any kind of logical sense doesn't need any more proof than the creation all around them. When we die, we don't come back again as anything else, not even another person.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 4990480


Dandelions die in my yard every winter and come back the next spring.

Some weeds die and come back from a seed. If you have bare dirt in your yard, something will sprout in time.

Creation never ceases.

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