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Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!

 
SpaceCommand
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07/22/2012 04:21 PM

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Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
It's not the votes that count. It's who counts the votes.
Josef Stalin

Our current voting system is gravely flawed with electronic vote cheating, and centralized tabulation subject to hacking.

Until any vote goes for tabulation, it must be hand counted, read out loud and video taped at every precinct, county, and State. Any centrally tabulated vote must be verified at every location.

Anything less will give us continuing corruption, submission to corporate money, and theft of private property. Just because it is "official by government," and so called approved by your currently compromised voting franchise, it is not necessarily good or right.

It is either government of the people, by the people, and for the people or it is nothing.

Last Edited by SpaceCommand on 07/22/2012 06:26 PM
"With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of things." William Wordsworth

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe葉he belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address

Lincoln's economic advisor Henry C. Carey explained the universal issue in his 1851 Harmony of Interests:

"Two systems are before the world.... One looks to pauperism, ignorance, depopulation, and barbarism; the other to increasing wealth, comfort, intelligence, combination of action, and civilization. One looks towards universal war; the other towards universal peace. One is the English system; the other ... the American system, for ... elevating while equalizing the condition of man throughout the world."
SpaceCommand (OP)
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07/22/2012 06:24 PM

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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
Why is it, when 638 people voted at a precinct in Franklin County, a voting machine awarded 4,258 extra votes to George Bush? Thankfully, they fixed it, but how many other votes did the computers get wrong?

Barbara Boxer

Hey I don't really like Barbara Boxer but she does have a point.
"With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of things." William Wordsworth

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe葉he belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address

Lincoln's economic advisor Henry C. Carey explained the universal issue in his 1851 Harmony of Interests:

"Two systems are before the world.... One looks to pauperism, ignorance, depopulation, and barbarism; the other to increasing wealth, comfort, intelligence, combination of action, and civilization. One looks towards universal war; the other towards universal peace. One is the English system; the other ... the American system, for ... elevating while equalizing the condition of man throughout the world."
SpaceCommand (OP)
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
starrynigh
"With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of things." William Wordsworth

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe葉he belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address

Lincoln's economic advisor Henry C. Carey explained the universal issue in his 1851 Harmony of Interests:

"Two systems are before the world.... One looks to pauperism, ignorance, depopulation, and barbarism; the other to increasing wealth, comfort, intelligence, combination of action, and civilization. One looks towards universal war; the other towards universal peace. One is the English system; the other ... the American system, for ... elevating while equalizing the condition of man throughout the world."
SpaceCommand (OP)
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07/23/2012 12:09 AM

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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
See also:

Thread: Ron Paul wins almost every delegate in Washington! -- Precinct results read publicly in video!
"With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of things." William Wordsworth

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe葉he belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address

Lincoln's economic advisor Henry C. Carey explained the universal issue in his 1851 Harmony of Interests:

"Two systems are before the world.... One looks to pauperism, ignorance, depopulation, and barbarism; the other to increasing wealth, comfort, intelligence, combination of action, and civilization. One looks towards universal war; the other towards universal peace. One is the English system; the other ... the American system, for ... elevating while equalizing the condition of man throughout the world."
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 12:28 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.

If there were no government, the weak minded such as yourself would be cut off from the fucking people. Idiots like you that need a government to tell them what they can and cannot do are the ones holding the rest of us back.
Judethz
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07/23/2012 12:34 AM

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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18158912


hbird That's rubbish, all you would have then is murderous, mindless anarchy.
SpaceCommand (OP)
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.

If there were no government, the weak minded such as yourself would be cut off from the fucking people. Idiots like you that need a government to tell them what they can and cannot do are the ones holding the rest of us back.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18158912


Who's going to fill in the holes in the street, and keep people from robbing you?
"With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of things." William Wordsworth

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe葉he belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address

Lincoln's economic advisor Henry C. Carey explained the universal issue in his 1851 Harmony of Interests:

"Two systems are before the world.... One looks to pauperism, ignorance, depopulation, and barbarism; the other to increasing wealth, comfort, intelligence, combination of action, and civilization. One looks towards universal war; the other towards universal peace. One is the English system; the other ... the American system, for ... elevating while equalizing the condition of man throughout the world."
...
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07/23/2012 01:05 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
...


I'll agree All Voting Must be done On Paper Ballots that can be verified and Hand Counted by the people who Certify the Election...


All Voting to be Counted and Certified in the City/County/State the Votes are Cast in...


Electronic counters may be used for quick counts however Not for Certification of an Election...


...


.
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 01:13 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
I too am of the midnset to rid ourselves of government. Why do we need it? Most of the people in government are foolish, greedy, self-serving, whores. Really, people in government have made truly bad decisions, greedy decisions, etc. These people are a mix of stupid, greedy, and psychopaths. Just look at what they have done and yet it continues.
chris999

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07/23/2012 01:28 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
Yep, voting in the Western Capitalist societies is a complete joke. It is only to make the people think that they have some kind of say so in the government.

80% of the time, both candidates are bought and paid for, so it isnt a big deal in those circumstances, but every now and then, an honest candidate like Ron Paul will come along, and they will have to rig the election some how.

Just look at the corrupt bullshit that the Romney campaign has done to the Republican primaries.

The Fox News Romney zombies will never believe me, but I went to hear Dr, Paul speak in December, and there were thousands of Paul supporters there, energized and ready to take him to the Whitehouse.

Interestingly enough, a buddy of mine just got back from seeing a Romney campaign stop a few weeks ago, and he said that there was literally more cops there on security duty than there was supporters that showed up. He also said that 90% of the people there were senior citizens.

Ron Paul clearly has more support from his base that Romney does. Most Romney supporters dont even like the guy, but the main stream media has fooled them into believeing that Romney is the only candidate that can beat Obama. Bullshit.

All Romney is is someone who is set up to LOSE to Obama, so that he can finish what he has started.

I'm telling you people. Ron Paul CAN beat Obama. Romney can not. Wake up!

Last Edited by chris999 on 07/23/2012 01:29 AM
I dont mean everything I say to be literal. I just like to throw around ideas, and play devil's advocate.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

-Galileo Galilei
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 01:38 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
Even if it was paper..... you name it, there will be a way for the chosen one to win.... switch boxes......add in a few 1,000 more paper votes to swing a way.... by hand to verify would be ridiculous....and then to confirm you still have the gap... they check off a list....well who made that list? it's not a solution either......

maybe people getting out of their houses and lining the streets to vote for their president....a helicopter can stretch in miles and see visually....whom had the most support from the largest cities....would be nice but people are idiots nowadays...cannot celebrate together in groups for anything anymore
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 01:41 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
It's not the votes that count. It's who counts the votes.
Josef Stalin

Our current voting system is gravely flawed with electronic vote cheating, and centralized tabulation subject to hacking.

Until any vote goes for tabulation, it must be hand counted, read out loud and video taped at every precinct, county, and State. Any centrally tabulated vote must be verified at every location.

Anything less will give us continuing corruption, submission to corporate money, and theft of private property. Just because it is "official by government," and so called approved by your currently compromised voting franchise, it is not necessarily good or right.

It is either government of the people, by the people, and for the people or it is nothing.
 Quoting: SpaceCommand


why even rant on about voting, really think a super hero is going to step in save us..
chris999

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07/23/2012 01:51 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
It's not the votes that count. It's who counts the votes.
Josef Stalin

Our current voting system is gravely flawed with electronic vote cheating, and centralized tabulation subject to hacking.

Until any vote goes for tabulation, it must be hand counted, read out loud and video taped at every precinct, county, and State. Any centrally tabulated vote must be verified at every location.

Anything less will give us continuing corruption, submission to corporate money, and theft of private property. Just because it is "official by government," and so called approved by your currently compromised voting franchise, it is not necessarily good or right.

It is either government of the people, by the people, and for the people or it is nothing.
 Quoting: SpaceCommand


why even rant on about voting, really think a super hero is going to step in save us..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20065323


I think if we can somehow get Ron Paul in there, he may have a chance as long as he keeps bodygaurds around him 24/7, because we all know that the banking elites will try to kill him.

But, if one of the other 2 candidates win, I think there will have to be blood spilled.
I dont mean everything I say to be literal. I just like to throw around ideas, and play devil's advocate.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

-Galileo Galilei
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 01:59 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
The way to make sure your votes are on paper, and thus verifiable by hand counting (per the constitution) is to VOTE BY ABSENTEE BALLOT!!!!!
zzbudzz

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07/23/2012 02:13 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
Anything would be better than the electronic vote stealing machines we have now!
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 02:17 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
Thats not my method.

I suggest using turnstyles. People go through the turnstyle o thier candidate and that automatically registers the vote. Job Done.

You can put cameras and have a invisible ink stamp to ensure you only go through once.

This means it is you who counts your own vote, you will be able to see the votes tot up in real time also on a screen as you walk through.
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 02:19 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
we had the lever system up here in New York for decades and it was flawless. Also had volunteers from the different parties present to tabulate. Never had any problems.
SpaceCommand (OP)
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07/23/2012 02:21 AM

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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
I too am of the mindset to rid ourselves of government. Why do we need it? Most of the people in government are foolish, greedy, self-serving, whores. Really, people in government have made truly bad decisions, greedy decisions, etc. These people are a mix of stupid, greedy, and psychopaths. Just look at what they have done and yet it continues.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9968554


You make my point, while most people are not represented in today's system. Machines can be hacked to tally you voted for Benedict Arnold, when you really voted for George Washington so to speak, we have a government we would want to rid ourselves.
"With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of things." William Wordsworth

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe葉he belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address

Lincoln's economic advisor Henry C. Carey explained the universal issue in his 1851 Harmony of Interests:

"Two systems are before the world.... One looks to pauperism, ignorance, depopulation, and barbarism; the other to increasing wealth, comfort, intelligence, combination of action, and civilization. One looks towards universal war; the other towards universal peace. One is the English system; the other ... the American system, for ... elevating while equalizing the condition of man throughout the world."
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 02:21 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
Thats not my method.

I suggest using turnstyles. People go through the turnstyle o thier candidate and that automatically registers the vote. Job Done.

You can put cameras and have a invisible ink stamp to ensure you only go through once.

This means it is you who counts your own vote, you will be able to see the votes tot up in real time also on a screen as you walk through.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20200589


Dayum, that engrish suks! Mind you it is 7 in the morning and i just got out of bad. :) lol.

Still half alseep.

Yep, turnstyles are easy to operate amd each candidate has thier own with name above.

Very fast voting, very accurate. Just like the turnstyles on underground trains :)
SpaceCommand (OP)
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07/23/2012 02:33 AM

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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
Thats not my method.

I suggest using turnstyles. People go through the turnstyle o thier candidate and that automatically registers the vote. Job Done.

You can put cameras and have a invisible ink stamp to ensure you only go through once.

This means it is you who counts your own vote, you will be able to see the votes tot up in real time also on a screen as you walk through.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20200589


Dayum, that engrish suks! Mind you it is 7 in the morning and i just got out of bad. :) lol.

Still half alseep.

Yep, turnstyles are easy to operate amd each candidate has thier own with name above.

Very fast voting, very accurate. Just like the turnstyles on underground trains :)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20200589


How do you keep the "Secret Ballot," which actually does not exist in the current system since it can be viewed by government. Would cheaters eventually direct people to turnstiles for a free pizza for example?

Granted a proposed hand count, vocally called out, and video taped is public, the name to the person who voted is not.
"With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of things." William Wordsworth

And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe葉he belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

John F. Kennedy Inaugural Address

Lincoln's economic advisor Henry C. Carey explained the universal issue in his 1851 Harmony of Interests:

"Two systems are before the world.... One looks to pauperism, ignorance, depopulation, and barbarism; the other to increasing wealth, comfort, intelligence, combination of action, and civilization. One looks towards universal war; the other towards universal peace. One is the English system; the other ... the American system, for ... elevating while equalizing the condition of man throughout the world."
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 02:43 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!


do you people realize that ole Ronnie boy wants to get rid of social security? YOu know that right?

38million seniors out on teh street...Ron Paul has some good ideas and then some VERY VERY VERY BAD ideas!
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 02:53 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
It's not the votes that count. It's who counts the votes.
Josef Stalin

Our current voting system is gravely flawed with electronic vote cheating, and centralized tabulation subject to hacking.

Until any vote goes for tabulation, it must be hand counted, read out loud and video taped at every precinct, county, and State. Any centrally tabulated vote must be verified at every location.

Anything less will give us continuing corruption, submission to corporate money, and theft of private property. Just because it is "official by government," and so called approved by your currently compromised voting franchise, it is not necessarily good or right.

It is either government of the people, by the people, and for the people or it is nothing.
 Quoting: SpaceCommand


There are reasons most every congress, senate and parliament around the world vote verbal ayes and nays. It's not just a holdover from tradition, they want it known clear as a bell what their vote is and that it is recorded correctly. Too bad the citizens are denied the same privilige.
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 04:01 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.

If there were no government, the weak minded such as yourself would be cut off from the fucking people. Idiots like you that need a government to tell them what they can and cannot do are the ones holding the rest of us back.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18158912


You are a fucking idiot. Never post here again.
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 04:34 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!


do you people realize that ole Ronnie boy wants to get rid of social security? YOu know that right?

38million seniors out on teh street...Ron Paul has some good ideas and then some VERY VERY VERY BAD ideas!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20340969


Do YOU realize that Social Security (and our nation) is BROKE? Social Security IS going away. Ron Paul actually had a plan to phase it out gradually, lessening the blow to those who were counting on it. Those under 50 and are still paying into it will never see one red cent for their contribution. SS is toast!
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 05:31 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.

If there were no government, the weak minded such as yourself would be cut off from the fucking people. Idiots like you that need a government to tell them what they can and cannot do are the ones holding the rest of us back.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18158912


Who's going to fill in the holes in the street, and keep people from robbing you?
 Quoting: SpaceCommand


ok we can protect ourselves dont need army or cops. or a goverment for that matter.
chris999

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07/23/2012 05:45 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.

If there were no government, the weak minded such as yourself would be cut off from the fucking people. Idiots like you that need a government to tell them what they can and cannot do are the ones holding the rest of us back.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18158912


Who's going to fill in the holes in the street, and keep people from robbing you?
 Quoting: SpaceCommand


ok we can protect ourselves dont need army or cops. or a goverment for that matter.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20065323


I understand your point, but in todays world, a limited government is needed.

America is rich in national resources, and is hated across the world because of GWB and Obama. Without a military and an executive to make wartime decisions, we would get invaded in a heartbeat.

We need small government, and our military needs to be brought back to defend North America instead of policing the whole world.
I dont mean everything I say to be literal. I just like to throw around ideas, and play devil's advocate.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

-Galileo Galilei
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 06:15 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18158912


:hbird: That's rubbish, all you would have then is murderous, mindless anarchy.
 Quoting: Judethz


How's that different than now?
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 07:44 AM
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Everything was fine till they outlawed exit polling.
Now exit voting information is classified and the exit vote count is not allowed to be made public, because their is a increasing chance that exit numbers will not match the the poll result.
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 07:50 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
NO, shill!

The answer is not hand-counted ballots... it's ZERO ballots.

ZERO election.

Zero government.

If there were no government, the weak minded such as yourself would be cut off from the fucking people. Idiots like you that need a government to tell them what they can and cannot do are the ones holding the rest of us back.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18158912


Who's going to fill in the holes in the street, and keep people from robbing you?
 Quoting: SpaceCommand


ok we can protect ourselves dont need army or cops. or a goverment for that matter.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20065323


I understand your point, but in todays world, a limited government is needed.

America is rich in national resources, and is hated across the world because of GWB and Obama. Without a military and an executive to make wartime decisions, we would get invaded in a heartbeat.

We need small government, and our military needs to be brought back to defend North America instead of policing the whole world.
 Quoting: chris999


yea maybe a small goverment but this time have some backup plan if it gets to big or out of control it quickly gets its ass clipped.
Anonymous Coward
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07/23/2012 07:51 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
After you purchase something from Home Depot you leave with a RECEIPT of what you purchased, how is it after you vote you leave with nothing?

PS: Time for direct democracy...lets vote directly for everything, otherwise the guy that says no fucking government is correct.
chris999

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07/23/2012 07:59 AM
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Re: Hand Counted Paper Ballots Announced Out Loud and Video Taped in Every Precinct - Our Best Hope for the Future!
...


Who's going to fill in the holes in the street, and keep people from robbing you?
 Quoting: SpaceCommand


ok we can protect ourselves dont need army or cops. or a goverment for that matter.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20065323


I understand your point, but in todays world, a limited government is needed.

America is rich in national resources, and is hated across the world because of GWB and Obama. Without a military and an executive to make wartime decisions, we would get invaded in a heartbeat.

We need small government, and our military needs to be brought back to defend North America instead of policing the whole world.
 Quoting: chris999


yea maybe a small goverment but this time have some backup plan if it gets to big or out of control it quickly gets its ass clipped.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20065323

I agree with you there. After the revolution, and we start electing new people for congress, we need to pass a law that if they try to pass unconstitutional legislation, everyone that votes 'yes' goes to prison, just like whoever tries to bring an unconstitutional bill up for vote.

Also, if budgets are not met, it comes out of THEIR pay first before being passed off to the people.

Also, whatever laws are passed (like healthcare) are to be experienced by them too. No special treatment.

And a big one... NO MORE LOBBYING! Each candidate will have the same small amount of money to use for campaign that is taken from taxes. Outside tampering from business or lobby groups is punishable by prison.
I dont mean everything I say to be literal. I just like to throw around ideas, and play devil's advocate.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

-Galileo Galilei