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Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!

 
Menow
User ID: 18943200
United States
08/05/2012 08:18 PM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
I know! And so persistent???

I like reading all the posts, but I'm getting rather tired of being considered ignorant, uneducated, etc. Especially, when I was asking questions.
I hope none of these guys are teachers. I'd pull my kid out of their class. LOL!

Honestly, though, I didn't intend to post anything after I posted my observations, but the thread took a turn for the strange.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


Your "questions" consisted mainly of incorrect presuppositions like this: "Why is the sun rising/setting in a different(wrong) place than it used to?" and then refusing to accept the explanations of people who KNOW the answer, which is that the sun is NOT rising in an abnormal place. Then you get indignant when truly knowledgeable people tell you that you don't know what you're talking about when you insist that the sun is in the wrong place. It's simply true, whether you like it or not- you DON'T know what you're talking about. Period.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 9718093
United States
08/05/2012 08:57 PM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Ok.

Answer these questions with REAL answers.
NOT smugness, arrogance or implying that I'm ignorant or uneducated. Both insinuations would be very wrong.

1. Why haven't I had to close the blinds in my kitchen to block the sun in over a year like I always had to before spring of 2011?

2. Why did I have to move 3 azaleas that were growing just fine in partial shade until this summer when the area they were planted in became full sun from morning until late afternoon?
And 2 hostas that only received morning sun and were completely shaded by 1 pm had to be moved because they were baking in the sun at 4 pm.

3. Why until last year did the afternoon sun shine into the deck door on the south end of my living room and now it shines in the door on the north end?

4. Why, for years, were we blinded by the sun all afternoon until the pine trees at the back of the property grew enough to block it and shade the deck and now the sun is setting further north and the trees don't shade anymore?

None of this has anything to do with seasons or my memory.
I have an excellent memory, by the way.
If you want to make it about memory, I remember when none of what I've listed was going on. And it wasn't going on until last year.

All of what I've posted IS occurring at my house where I've spent the last 25 years.
I know this property. I know what areas should be, and were, shaded and which areas should be full sun and at what time of the year. I do understand and recognize seasonal changes and what is going on here is not seasonal changes.

If you insist it's seasonal then

5. When will the sun rise over the house directly across the street again. I really want to know since it's hasn't in over a year.

These are the questions I want answered.
Menow
User ID: 18943200
United States
08/05/2012 09:29 PM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Ok.

Answer these questions with REAL answers.
NOT smugness, arrogance or implying that I'm ignorant or uneducated. Both insinuations would be very wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


That's really silly of you to say. You are clearly uneducated and ignorant in the area of astronomy.

1. Why haven't I had to close the blinds in my kitchen to block the sun in over a year like I always had to before spring of 2011?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


Do you know what "anecdotal" means? You continue to ask questions based on things you think you remember. How can anyone else answer about something we have no concrete information about? No one was there to see what you are talking about or assess what really happened. There could be many reasons- the least likely of which is that the sun is in the wrong place in the sky.

2. Why did I have to move 3 azaleas that were growing just fine in partial shade until this summer when the area they were planted in became full sun from morning until late afternoon?
And 2 hostas that only received morning sun and were completely shaded by 1 pm had to be moved because they were baking in the sun at 4 pm.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


See above.


3. Why until last year did the afternoon sun shine into the deck door on the south end of my living room and now it shines in the door on the north end?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


See above.

4. Why, for years, were we blinded by the sun all afternoon until the pine trees at the back of the property grew enough to block it and shade the deck and now the sun is setting further north and the trees don't shade anymore?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


See above.

None of this has anything to do with seasons or my memory.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


So YOU would like to think.

I have an excellent memory, by the way.
If you want to make it about memory, I remember when none of what I've listed was going on. And it wasn't going on until last year.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


But you have no physical evidence, like pictures, to back it up. It's just your say-so.

All of what I've posted IS occurring at my house where I've spent the last 25 years.
I know this property. I know what areas should be, and were, shaded and which areas should be full sun and at what time of the year. I do understand and recognize seasonal changes and what is going on here is not seasonal changes.

If you insist it's seasonal then

5. When will the sun rise over the house directly across the street again. I really want to know since it's hasn't in over a year.

These are the questions I want answered.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


Neither I nor anybody else here knows the location or orientation of your house, nor the location of the house across the street or anything about trees or any other factors which might be involved. The fact that you would ask such questions speaks volumes.

If you give your location, someone can tell you in what directions the sun should be rising there. On the other hand, there a many online resources for that information- some of which have been cited on this very thread. Did you choose to ignore them? Why?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 9718093
United States
08/05/2012 10:26 PM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
No, I didn't ignore them. They didn't answer my questions.
Menow
User ID: 18943200
United States
08/05/2012 10:38 PM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
No, I didn't ignore them. They didn't answer my questions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


How can you be so self-centered as to think anyone can answer astronomical questions based only on what you say you see in your yard or from your window? Don't you get that you have given nothing concrete for anyone to work with?
ExoPoliChick (OP)

User ID: 12909685
Canada
08/06/2012 12:06 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Ok.

Answer these questions with REAL answers.
NOT smugness, arrogance or implying that I'm ignorant or uneducated. Both insinuations would be very wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


That's really silly of you to say. You are clearly uneducated and ignorant in the area of astronomy.

1. Why haven't I had to close the blinds in my kitchen to block the sun in over a year like I always had to before spring of 2011?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


Do you know what "anecdotal" means? You continue to ask questions based on things you think you remember. How can anyone else answer about something we have no concrete information about? No one was there to see what you are talking about or assess what really happened. There could be many reasons- the least likely of which is that the sun is in the wrong place in the sky.

2. Why did I have to move 3 azaleas that were growing just fine in partial shade until this summer when the area they were planted in became full sun from morning until late afternoon?
And 2 hostas that only received morning sun and were completely shaded by 1 pm had to be moved because they were baking in the sun at 4 pm.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


See above.


3. Why until last year did the afternoon sun shine into the deck door on the south end of my living room and now it shines in the door on the north end?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


See above.

4. Why, for years, were we blinded by the sun all afternoon until the pine trees at the back of the property grew enough to block it and shade the deck and now the sun is setting further north and the trees don't shade anymore?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


See above.

None of this has anything to do with seasons or my memory.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


So YOU would like to think.

I have an excellent memory, by the way.
If you want to make it about memory, I remember when none of what I've listed was going on. And it wasn't going on until last year.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


But you have no physical evidence, like pictures, to back it up. It's just your say-so.

All of what I've posted IS occurring at my house where I've spent the last 25 years.
I know this property. I know what areas should be, and were, shaded and which areas should be full sun and at what time of the year. I do understand and recognize seasonal changes and what is going on here is not seasonal changes.

If you insist it's seasonal then

5. When will the sun rise over the house directly across the street again. I really want to know since it's hasn't in over a year.

These are the questions I want answered.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9718093


Neither I nor anybody else here knows the location or orientation of your house, nor the location of the house across the street or anything about trees or any other factors which might be involved. The fact that you would ask such questions speaks volumes.

If you give your location, someone can tell you in what directions the sun should be rising there. On the other hand, there a many online resources for that information- some of which have been cited on this very thread. Did you choose to ignore them? Why?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


This is such bullshit Menow, that you'd come in here and pick apart these posts without giving answers, just claiming it is "anecdotal". Sorry but most of us do not live in a laboratory or have the ability to have our observations peer reviewed. You are obviously here to stir the pot and discredit honest observations.

You sir are a shill.
Traveler of both time and space ~~~~


Nobody told me there'd be days like these....Strange days indeed!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is our innate solidarity - not some despotism of the sky - that is our source of morality and sense of decency."
~ Hitchens

"The essence of the independent mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks."
~ Hitchens

"A mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."
~ Sagan

I LOVE science and I LOVE space but I am hugely skeptical and don't trust a word NASA says.
Menow
User ID: 18943200
United States
08/06/2012 12:37 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
This is such bullshit Menow, that you'd come in here and pick apart these posts without giving answers, just claiming it is "anecdotal". Sorry but most of us do not live in a laboratory or have the ability to have our observations peer reviewed. You are obviously here to stir the pot and discredit honest observations.

You sir are a shill.
 Quoting: ExoPoliChick


1)You should look up the definition of the word "shill".

2)You should look up the definition of the word "anecdotal".

3)How do you expect anyone to know anything about the physical orientation of this woman's house or the landmarks around it in order to answer those questions? How?!

4)I have given the URL to a site which will show where the sun should rise for her area. Why doesn't she USE it? Why don't YOU?
Waterbug

User ID: 1295673
United States
08/06/2012 12:49 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Simplified explanation..

The earth spins on its axis at 23.5 degrees off of vertical.
This is not constant and changes with the distribution of mass.

The amount of wobble is determined by monitoring distant objects such as quasars. The position of all the planets, earth included, is determined by celestial reference.. center of the solar system.. and calculated using 212 astronomical bodies.

To know our precise location we use Very Long Baseline Interferometry[VLBI] which can't be operated continually due to the complexity and expense.. radio-telescopic observations from all over the globe, basically. We need this information for GPS operation. It is precise but could be more precise with new ring laser gyroscopic technology which will operate from the poles. Not perfected but they are working on it.

We know that the north pole is migrating along 79 degrees West at a rate of about 10 centimeters annually and this value is increasing and accelerating. This is the rebound effect from the loss of ice mass that once covered large portions of the earth.

The Greenland melt is estimated to be increasing axial tilt by about 3 centimeters a year and is expected to increase. Ocean warming and expansion is pushing water onto shallow ocean shelves, changing the distribution of mass. This is causing the the northern pole of Earth's spin axis to shift by roughly 1.5 centimeters per year in the direction of Alaska and Hawaii.
Other factors include crust and mantle movement and effects from El Nino which also shift mass.

Warming temperature also affects rate of spin.. as do perihelion and aphelion.
There are other factors which have effects but I'm not going any further than I have at this time.

This information is not hidden. It is all available on the web..

internet
Menow
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United States
08/06/2012 12:56 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Simplified explanation..
 Quoting: Waterbug


Simplified explanation of what? You're trolling again.


quote:Waterbug:MV8xOTQyODYwXzMyNjQ1ODIzXzVEMzBGRDJB


(snip irrelevant blather which doesn't relate at all to the idea of the sun being radically out of place in the sky)


Waterbug

User ID: 1295673
United States
08/06/2012 01:22 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Simplified explanation..
 Quoting: Waterbug


Simplified explanation of what? You're trolling again.


quote:Waterbug:MV8xOTQyODYwXzMyNjQ1ODIzXzVEMzBGRDJB


(snip irrelevant blather which doesn't relate at all to the idea of the sun being radically out of place in the sky)


 Quoting: Menow 18943200



I guess I should have made it simpler.. so you could understand it..

Your cretinous nature is showing.

fucktard
Astræa
User ID: 14828328
United States
08/06/2012 03:40 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
What is amazing to me, (given that this discussion is real, though that is not likely...) is that there might be some that notice that things are off, and not just off - but way (WAY) way off; yes - the Sun not only is out of place per normal, but has, in the past few years - been know to rise early, very early, or set late...

And WOW - so Venus conjuction, blue moon this month, last night, and even tonight; Venus or Jupiter or Saturn so bright,so huge even - I've not seen, or even heard of thsese sorts of celestial events EVER before.

So much else has shifted, changes, et ceter..a.
Astræa
User ID: 14828328
United States
08/06/2012 03:49 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
And - in my humble opinion; here is the "Conspiracy Site" and wow - supposed to be smart folk here, supposed to be open feeling, supposed to be exchange of idea's, evidence...and then - collaboration...

So - just saying: more than the position of the Sun and moon have changed - everything is/has/will/did changed, and that is all I got to say,

For now :P

red_heart
Hydra

User ID: 21335589
Germany
08/06/2012 05:35 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Simplified explanation..

The earth spins on its axis at 23.5 degrees off of vertical.
This is not constant and changes with the distribution of mass.

... snip ...

We know that the north pole is migrating along 79 degrees West at a rate of about 10 centimeters annually and this value is increasing and accelerating.

... snip ...

The Greenland melt is estimated to be increasing axial tilt by about 3 centimeters a year and is expected to increase.

... snip ...

This is causing the the northern pole of Earth's spin axis to shift by roughly 1.5 centimeters per year in the direction of Alaska and Hawaii.

... snip ...
 Quoting: Waterbug

Why do you mix up degrees and centimeters?
Do you intend that people misinterpret degrees with centimeters (OMG Erth axis tilted by 10 deg or 3 deg ...)?
Why not stay at degrees?

To give you (and others) the numbers: 3 cm correspond to approx. 0.0000000005 deg.
For comparison: The Chandler Wobble* can shift the axis by up to 10 m/p.a = 0,0000164°

* The Chandler Wobble is induced by changes in mass distribution during the seasons e.g. rainfalls, the melting of ice, El Nino, ...

Nice copy & paste from Wikipedia - but it is of advantage if the quoter understands what she/he quotes.


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Halcyon Dayz, FCD
Contrarian's Contrarian

User ID: 19507663
Netherlands
08/06/2012 06:33 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Why do you mix up degrees and centimeters?
 Quoting: Hydra

I can only think of two reasons for that:

1 - Doesn't understand the difference, i.e. ignorant and dumb.

2 - Does understand, but does mix them on purpose, i.e. disinfo agent.
book
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.


Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
Anonymous Coward
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Australia
08/06/2012 06:52 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
I aways see the sun setting behind the avo tree in the yard.. in the last few weeks it is way of the tree....yep The other night I dreamt of 2 suns one was normal the other opposite was riseing in the east as the other was setting, the sun was less than half the size of the normal one was in the sky around 10am as the other was setting, sky was blue.
the facts
User ID: 21373978
Italy
08/06/2012 07:20 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Also temperatures all over the world has drastically changed: Thread: Crazy Temperatures in Siberia

so I'am not impressed at all, even about the sun / moon that has moved/changed its behaviors.
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2012 07:25 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
I can tell you it has to be at least 25-30 degrees off from when I was younger...

How do I know you ask... well my house that I have lived in and has been around since the 30's the sun never ever ever came into a certain window, but now the sun beams uncomfortably through the window causing vision distortion which never happened before
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2012 07:27 AM
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Hydra

User ID: 21335589
Germany
08/06/2012 07:29 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
I aways see the sun setting behind the avo tree in the yard.. in the last few weeks it is way of the tree....yep
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21379795

Let me guess - it's off to the left of the tree, isn't it.


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Hydra

User ID: 21335589
Germany
08/06/2012 07:32 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
I can tell you it has to be at least 25-30 degrees off from when I was younger...

How do I know you ask... well my house that I have lived in and has been around since the 30's the sun never ever ever came into a certain window, but now the sun beams uncomfortably through the window causing vision distortion which never happened before
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19895629


"causing vision distortion" - that explains the "25-30 degrees off"

:-)


.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21373978
Italy
08/06/2012 07:36 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
I can tell you it has to be at least 25-30 degrees off from when I was younger...

How do I know you ask... well my house that I have lived in and has been around since the 30's the sun never ever ever came into a certain window, but now the sun beams uncomfortably through the window causing vision distortion which never happened before
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19895629


Actually I say 15 degrees, max 20, BUT it can change every day, also because the '8' wobble movement of the earth's axis.
Hydra

User ID: 21335589
Germany
08/06/2012 07:39 AM

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... Blah, Blah, Blah ...
 Quoting: the facts 21373978


Hi DUCM900,

again forgot to log in with your user name?

Or trying to prevent more red karma for trolling?

Coward!

feedtroll



.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Hydra

User ID: 21335589
Germany
08/06/2012 07:47 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Actually I say 15 degrees, max 20, BUT it can change every day, also because the '8' wobble movement of the earth's axis.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21373978


What "'8' wobble movement of the earth's axis"?

This one? [link to scienceblogs.com]


[link to scienceblogs.com]

Thread: The sun is moving around in a figure 8 shape! OMG!

feedtroll



.
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Menow
User ID: 18943200
United States
08/06/2012 09:23 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Simplified explanation..
 Quoting: Waterbug


Simplified explanation of what? You're trolling again.


quote:Waterbug:MV8xOTQyODYwXzMyNjQ1ODIzXzVEMzBGRDJB


(snip irrelevant blather which doesn't relate at all to the idea of the sun being radically out of place in the sky)


 Quoting: Menow 18943200

 Quoting: Waterbug


I guess I should have made it simpler.. so you could understand it..

Your cretinous nature is showing.

:fucktard:


I see you didn't answer the question. Why? I didn't say I didn't understand the explanation. I asked you to specify what you were explanation. The difference is: You are pretending that what you said relates to the claim of this thread, which is that the sun is RADICALLY OUT OF PLACE IN THE SKY.

You are fear-mongering with unrelated things AGAIN!

Once AGAIN... do you agree that the sun is RADICALLY out of place in the sky and do you have ANY evidence to support that claim?
Menow
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08/06/2012 09:26 AM
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Why do you mix up degrees and centimeters?
 Quoting: Hydra

I can only think of two reasons for that:

1 - Doesn't understand the difference, i.e. ignorant and dumb.

2 - Does understand, but does mix them on purpose, i.e. disinfo agent.
book
 Quoting: Halcyon Dayz, FCD


He is a shill for the "SUN OUT OF PLACE" cult.
Menow
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08/06/2012 09:28 AM
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I aways see the sun setting behind the avo tree in the yard..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21379795


No, you don't. The sun does not always set in any particular place.
Menow
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08/06/2012 09:29 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
I can tell you it has to be at least 25-30 degrees off from when I was younger...


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19895629


You mean 3 months younger? That would probably be correct.
Waterbug

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08/06/2012 10:15 AM

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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
The words are mine. I can type.

The information, including the facts and figures.. including metric measurements.. comes from published scientific papers and articles from physics publications.
I could have linked them.. but where's the fun in that..?

You would probably not have disputed the information.. as it is.. you did.. exposing your scientific ignorance.tard


The fact that you dispute this information and attempt to attribute ignorance on my part.. is laughable.laugh

This thread could have been an intelligent conversation. Instead, it turned into a bash-the-poster campaign.. to discredit me and any poster willing to state their observations.

Now.. unless the thread is erased by mods.. anyone who reads it will see those of you who have engaged in this distasteful and rude discourse.


Say whatever you want to about me. I don't care.chuckle
I'm a big boy. I can take it.

With every post, you boneheads reveal your true colors.. and I'm not the only person who can see what they are.





salute
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2012 10:26 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
Hey TBar, would you please explain why the Tropic of Capricorn bobs between 22 and 24 degrees over time.
If the sun is where it is supposed to be, this wouldn't happen, right?

---snip---
The Tropic of Capricorn is one of the five major circles of latitude that mark maps of the Earth. It currently (Epoch 2012) lies 23° 26′ 16″ [1] south of the Equator.
It is currently drifting north at the rate of almost half a second (0.47″) of latitude, which is about 15 metres, per year (it was at exactly 23° 27' S in year 1917).[2]
---snip---

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward


Still no answer, TBar?
Anonymous Coward
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08/06/2012 10:28 AM
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Re: Have You Noticed The Sun Has "Moved"? Post Your Evidence / Stories Here!
The words are mine. I can type.

The information, including the facts and figures.. including metric measurements.. comes from published scientific papers and articles from physics publications.
I could have linked them.. but where's the fun in that..?

You would probably not have disputed the information.. as it is.. you did.. exposing your scientific ignorance.tard


The fact that you dispute this information and attempt to attribute ignorance on my part.. is laughable.laugh

This thread could have been an intelligent conversation. Instead, it turned into a bash-the-poster campaign.. to discredit me and any poster willing to state their observations.

Now.. unless the thread is erased by mods.. anyone who reads it will see those of you who have engaged in this distasteful and rude discourse.


Say whatever you want to about me. I don't care.chuckle
I'm a big boy. I can take it.

With every post, you boneheads reveal your true colors.. and I'm not the only person who can see what they are.





:salute:
 Quoting: Waterbug


Yep, these shills are working overtime, as soon as someone mentions that the sun or the moon are out of place, or someone mentions an HMO is coming in. Very telling...

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