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Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."

 
Anonymous Coward
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08/21/2012 09:45 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Dr. Astro, since Jupiter is kept constantly behind our sun from us, (by adjustment of its orbital speed), I don't thinks its possible to know if its OFF or not.

I have no looked at star ship Jupiter of late to compare to my sky program in location, but you don't even know if that puppy is in Jupiter orbit. It could even be orbiting earth with careful computer calculations to put it where people expect to see it in the sky.
 Quoting: Margaret Smith


What? No it's not. It has an 11 year orbit, most of the time it's not behind the sun.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20479168


It is purposely behind the sun right now. Because Jupiter was made a sun in early February 2009. It was kept behind the sun from us since rougly a year before then. It did not ignite during the time behind the sun in late 2007, early7 2008. And its orbit is about 12 years long, not 11. But that is NOT the case right now. I assume its moving along sort of close to earths orbit, since it is always behind the sun from us. Star Fleet, GOD"s scientists can and do , do things like this.

You have been looking at STAR SHIP Jupiter showing a hologram since 2008.
Halcyon Dayz, FCD
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08/21/2012 09:59 PM

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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Haha Why can I see it moving without a telescope? Fuck off with this co-intel bullshit...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10422700

Because the earth is rotating?
 Quoting: Dr. Astro

Dr. Astro:

It is really obvious we need a thread that explores the basic of astrophysics. Some of the people on this thread aren't quite up to speed.

The topical facts that should be covered include:
1. The earth isn't flat.
2. The earth is round (more or less) and rotates on its axis once a day.
3. The earth revolves around the sun once a year.
...


Eventually you could work up to latitude and declination and the apparent path objects take through the sky. And that the solar system's baricenter is partway between the sun and Jupiter (and to a lesser extent Saturn).
 Quoting: Poriwoggu

Or we could point people this way -> [link to www.kidsastronomy.com]
Hatred is a cancer upon the world.
It rots the mind and blackens the heart.


Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
Dr. AstroModerator (OP)
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08/21/2012 10:02 PM

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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Haha Why can I see it moving without a telescope? Fuck off with this co-intel bullshit...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10422700

Because the earth is rotating?
 Quoting: Dr. Astro

Dr. Astro:

It is really obvious we need a thread that explores the basic of astrophysics. Some of the people on this thread aren't quite up to speed.

The topical facts that should be covered include:
1. The earth isn't flat.
2. The earth is round (more or less) and rotates on its axis once a day.
3. The earth revolves around the sun once a year.
...


Eventually you could work up to latitude and declination and the apparent path objects take through the sky. And that the solar system's baricenter is partway between the sun and Jupiter (and to a lesser extent Saturn).
 Quoting: Poriwoggu

Or we could point people this way -> [link to www.kidsastronomy.com]
 Quoting: Halcyon Dayz, FCD

LOL! You guys crack me up!
astrobanner2
Menow
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08/21/2012 11:22 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
It could even be orbiting earth with careful computer calculations to put it where people expect to see it in the sky.
 Quoting: Margaret Smith


Only if it was the same size as Jupiter and at the same distance and position as Jupiter could it appear correctly to all observers on Earth. In other words, it *is* Jupiter.
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


Note: No response. Your alleged Starship cannot be small and anywhere near Earth and assume the position of Jupiter for observers in more than one location at a time. Look up "parallax", Margret dear.

Why don't you just declare it to be "magic" and get it over with?
Whiskey Brother
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08/22/2012 12:07 AM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
I got a lot of respect for you Dr. Astro. Your ability in astronomy is really something to be admired. But I admire even more your tolerance for the ignorant rabble who attack you. It's too bad that there are so many delusional stupid people in the world today...
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 04:46 AM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Somebody gave me a bad carma, because quote:
"Complete Airhead about general science, claims data used to land mars rover cant actually be known by man."
I have never claimed that. I don't care about this carma ot whatever, but I care about the truth and that's a lie!
AllGunsBlazing

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08/22/2012 11:34 AM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Somebody gave me a bad carma, because quote:
"Complete Airhead about general science, claims data used to land mars rover cant actually be known by man."
I have never claimed that. I don't care about this carma ot whatever, but I care about the truth and that's a lie!
 Quoting: ·-º»¬


You claimed our mathematical understanding of the universe was bad, did you not?
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 12:30 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Somebody gave me a bad carma, because quote:
"Complete Airhead about general science, claims data used to land mars rover cant actually be known by man."
I have never claimed that. I don't care about this carma ot whatever, but I care about the truth and that's a lie!
 Quoting: ·-º»¬


You claimed our mathematical understanding of the universe was bad, did you not?
 Quoting: AllGunsBlazing


Yes. That has nothing to do with basic mathematics and engineering. You can still make calculations, when you go to buy another donut, so what? That means you know all about the universe?
I wonder why I'm answering to that type of questions. It's clear like a water.
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 12:40 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
OK. In the last 2 days both Scooby Doo and now The Flintstones have had episodes about Nibiru. Go watch them Getting back to this thread and numerous threads by Astro and his band of merry supporters. Finally figured out that you guys are just as stupid as I though. You have been in denial because you really don't know any better yourselfs. These programs are suggestive that Planet X in fact does exist. Its called normalizing Kids to the fact so when it does present its self people are not going to freak out as much about it. Kids alot of times are more savvy when it comes to computors. When they do a search and I have done one myself it takes you to wiki that takes you to ZETA. Zeta talks about the safe places and what to do to prepare for the EVENT. Its getting pretty real now and its just a matter of time before we will all be able to see whats there with our own eyes. Even you Astro. People can stay in denial about all this or they can be proactive and do somthing to help themselves. their kids and their families. The rush will start and if you wait too long all the good stuff will be gone that a person is going to need. Before you even answer this post you better go see for yourself. Just because you can't see somthing does not mean its not there. Your going to be really busy in the future explaining why we could not see what was there all this time. Get ready.
Edge Rider

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08/22/2012 12:53 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
OK. In the last 2 days both Scooby Doo and now The Flintstones have had episodes about Nibiru. Go watch them Getting back to this thread and numerous threads by Astro and his band of merry supporters. Finally figured out that you guys are just as stupid as I though. You have been in denial because you really don't know any better yourselfs. These programs are suggestive that Planet X in fact does exist. Its called normalizing Kids to the fact so when it does present its self people are not going to freak out as much about it. Kids alot of times are more savvy when it comes to computors. When they do a search and I have done one myself it takes you to wiki that takes you to ZETA. Zeta talks about the safe places and what to do to prepare for the EVENT. Its getting pretty real now and its just a matter of time before we will all be able to see whats there with our own eyes. Even you Astro. People can stay in denial about all this or they can be proactive and do somthing to help themselves. their kids and their families. The rush will start and if you wait too long all the good stuff will be gone that a person is going to need. Before you even answer this post you better go see for yourself. Just because you can't see somthing does not mean its not there. Your going to be really busy in the future explaining why we could not see what was there all this time. Get ready.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624


scooby doo and the flintstones? i think scooby doo has done shows on other myths like the chupacabra and loch ness monster. but nothing compares to the great gazoo!


Row, row, row your boat...gently down the stream...merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...life is but a dream...
[link to en.wikipedia.org] / [link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 12:55 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
OK. In the last 2 days both Scooby Doo and now The Flintstones have had episodes about Nibiru. Go watch them Getting back to this thread and numerous threads by Astro and his band of merry supporters. Finally figured out that you guys are just as stupid as I though. You have been in denial because you really don't know any better yourselfs. These programs are suggestive that Planet X in fact does exist. Its called normalizing Kids to the fact so when it does present its self people are not going to freak out as much about it. Kids alot of times are more savvy when it comes to computors. When they do a search and I have done one myself it takes you to wiki that takes you to ZETA. Zeta talks about the safe places and what to do to prepare for the EVENT. Its getting pretty real now and its just a matter of time before we will all be able to see whats there with our own eyes. Even you Astro. People can stay in denial about all this or they can be proactive and do somthing to help themselves. their kids and their families. The rush will start and if you wait too long all the good stuff will be gone that a person is going to need. Before you even answer this post you better go see for yourself. Just because you can't see somthing does not mean its not there. Your going to be really busy in the future explaining why we could not see what was there all this time. Get ready.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624


damned
Dr. AstroModerator (OP)
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08/22/2012 12:57 PM

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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
OK. In the last 2 days both Scooby Doo and now The Flintstones have had episodes about Nibiru. Go watch them Getting back to this thread and numerous threads by Astro and his band of merry supporters. Finally figured out that you guys are just as stupid as I though. You have been in denial because you really don't know any better yourselfs. These programs are suggestive that Planet X in fact does exist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624

LOL! Wow, I don't know any more than you because a kid's cartoon episode featured it?
Its called normalizing Kids to the fact so when it does present its self people are not going to freak out as much about it.
 Quoting: AC

I bet one of you AC's on here is secretly a cartoon script writer... It does not, however, prove the Nibiru claim at all. It doesn't even provide evidence for it.
Kids alot of times are more savvy when it comes to computors. When they do a search and I have done one myself it takes you to wiki that takes you to ZETA.
 Quoting: AC

Which is precisely why I debunk this bullshit. Some freak decides to make a kid's cartoon episode about it to indoctrinate them into their cult of Nibiru and next thing you know they're reading up on zetatalk bullshit but lack the ability to realize that it is in fact bullshit.
Just because you can't see somthing does not mean its not there.
 Quoting: AC

I know it's not there because there are no gravitational effects that WOULD be there if it were real.
Thread: Nibiru Analysis *Jupiter analysis on page 20*
Your going to be really busy in the future explaining why we could not see what was there all this time.
 Quoting: AC

No, I'm not.
astrobanner2
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08/22/2012 01:00 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
There is no jupiter. It's a big joke. Come on guys stand up for yourself. Geez talk about Stolkholm syndrome
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 01:03 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Hey don't you live in Florida... Your Ass Is Grass.
AllGunsBlazing

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08/22/2012 01:06 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Somebody gave me a bad carma, because quote:
"Complete Airhead about general science, claims data used to land mars rover cant actually be known by man."
I have never claimed that. I don't care about this carma ot whatever, but I care about the truth and that's a lie!
 Quoting: ·-º»¬


You claimed our mathematical understanding of the universe was bad, did you not?
 Quoting: AllGunsBlazing


Yes. That has nothing to do with basic mathematics and engineering. You can still make calculations, when you go to buy another donut, so what? That means you know all about the universe?
I wonder why I'm answering to that type of questions. It's clear like a water.
 Quoting: ·-º»¬


Because our mathematical understanding of the universe today is involved in our entire lives. Do you like your cell phones, TV, or the internet? Good thing we have a firm understanding of gravity and orbital mechanics, otherwise all those satellites wouldn't be working. The very same laws that are used to put objects on or around other objects in the solar system? We know exactly how the planets move in the sky, which is why the theories Kepler constructed are now called the "Laws of Kepler." Because they've been put through rigorous testing over and over again and have still been proven to be true.

You would think that even if our calculations are wrong by the tiniest bit, that the New Horizons probe on its nine year trek to Pluto traveling at 31,000mph would completely miss its target right? There's no near miss there, we're talking about 3.1 billion miles of travel. Yet the probe will make it, based on our very keen understanding of gravity and our abilities to make accurate calculations according to those laws. The very same laws that punch gaping holes in the "Hollow Earth Theory." The very same calculations that put a rover on Mars.

Therefore, if you're claiming our mathematics are bad, you're saying we could never have landed a rover on Mars.

Last Edited by AllGunsBlazing on 08/22/2012 01:31 PM
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 01:15 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
What a Joke. Ac's know script writers who got Planet X written into the scripts for the benefit of the Zeta's THATS A STRETCH of the imagination isn't it. ALL of what we see on TV and the News is controlled by 3 HUGE CORPS. EVERYTHING. For somebody like Nancy to have any pull and by your own account is a flake how the hell would she by your own accounts be able to pull that one off. Time to grow up my boy and pull your head out of your ass. The writing is on the wall.
Dr. AstroModerator (OP)
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08/22/2012 02:10 PM

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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
What a Joke. Ac's know script writers who got Planet X written into the scripts for the benefit of the Zeta's THATS A STRETCH of the imagination isn't it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21205708

That's not even what I said. I said I bet some AC IS a script write. Not "knows script writers." IS a script writer. No, that's not a stretch of imagination at all. To think that it's impossible for a script writer to also be a GLP'er is a stretch of imagination.
ALL of what we see on TV and the News is controlled by 3 HUGE CORPS. EVERYTHING.
 Quoting: AC

Oh yeah, like there's some huge conspiracy to profile everyone working on every show on TV, right down to some stupid remake of a kid's cartoon, to make sure they never post on conspiracy websites or get any ideas from there. Bullshit.
For somebody like Nancy to have any pull and by your own account is a flake how the hell would she by your own accounts be able to pull that one off.
 Quoting: AC

Where did I say a thing about Nancy deliberately orchestrating it? I didn't. Stop putting words in my mouth, I don't give her credit for being that clever. She doesn't have to be, there's nothing that says it would be impossible for a Nibiru cultist to also happen to be involved in the creation of a kid's cartoon show and work "Nibiru" into the plot. It doesn't even have to be someone from her cult, there are a number of other internet cults out there that focus on Nibiru including terral's "research group," Donny Gilson's followers, and the "astrolpatriot/skyview team" culties.
Time to grow up my boy and pull your head out of your ass.
 Quoting: AC

Time for you to learn how to read.
astrobanner2
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08/22/2012 02:13 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
It is starting to get very CLEAR the Big Picture. They don't start to put out kids shows like this if there wasn't somthing behind it. They DID NOT DEBUNK IT. Rather they left it wide open. Decide for yourselfs but I think there is method to all this madness.
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 02:15 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Back peddle all you want. I'd be moving out of Florida.
Menow
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08/22/2012 02:26 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
That means you know all about the universe?

 Quoting: ·-º»¬


Classic misrepresentation. NO ONE said we/they know all about the universe.
Menow
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08/22/2012 02:30 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Its getting pretty real now and its just a matter of time before we will all be able to see whats there with our own eyes.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624


People, including Nancy Lieder, have been saying they saw it with naked eyes since 2003. Was it true? No.

Just because you can't see somthing does not mean its not there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624


Say what? So it's an invisible planet?
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 02:45 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
OK. In the last 2 days both Scooby Doo and now The Flintstones have had episodes about Nibiru. Go watch them Getting back to this thread and numerous threads by Astro and his band of merry supporters. Finally figured out that you guys are just as stupid as I though. You have been in denial because you really don't know any better yourselfs. These programs are suggestive that Planet X in fact does exist. Its called normalizing Kids to the fact so when it does present its self people are not going to freak out as much about it. Kids alot of times are more savvy when it comes to computors. When they do a search and I have done one myself it takes you to wiki that takes you to ZETA. Zeta talks about the safe places and what to do to prepare for the EVENT. Its getting pretty real now and its just a matter of time before we will all be able to see whats there with our own eyes. Even you Astro. People can stay in denial about all this or they can be proactive and do somthing to help themselves. their kids and their families. The rush will start and if you wait too long all the good stuff will be gone that a person is going to need. Before you even answer this post you better go see for yourself. Just because you can't see somthing does not mean its not there. Your going to be really busy in the future explaining why we could not see what was there all this time. Get ready.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624


scooby doo and the flintstones? i think scooby doo has done shows on other myths like the chupacabra and loch ness monster. but nothing compares to the great gazoo!


 Quoting: Edge Rider


This is GREAT. Lots of stuff exists that you cannot see. I also think there's alot going on here. They didn't bebunk it did THEY. I think its just a matter of time till the truth is right before our eyes. I've always felt there was somthing too all of this. Maybe you guys should start to think about the possibility that this is real. None of you have ever been able to prove that it doesn't exist either. I've read all your arguments and they don't hold water either way. I'll got with my Gut Feelings thanks. Maybe you should move out of florida.
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 02:47 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Its getting pretty real now and its just a matter of time before we will all be able to see whats there with our own eyes.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624


People, including Nancy Lieder, have been saying they saw it with naked eyes since 2003. Was it true? No.

Just because you can't see somthing does not mean its not there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20301624


Say what? So it's an invisible planet?
 Quoting: Menow 18943200


I'd believe her over the likes of you Menow. I have never liked you tactics. Ever.
Hydra

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08/22/2012 02:50 PM

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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
It is starting to get very CLEAR the Big Picture. They don't start to put out kids shows like this if there wasn't somthing behind it. They DID NOT DEBUNK IT. Rather they left it wide open. Decide for yourselfs but I think there is method to all this madness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21205708

Nice, thus apart from Nibiru we can expect houses with chicken legs rampaging around town or monsters turning people into gold statues (would be an easy solution of the financial crisis).
And don't forget to kill your dog, because in season 2 episode 15 they tell that "the dog must die".



"Nancy, what are you doing?"

"Looking for Nibiru!"

"? ? ? ? ?"

"I FOUND IT!"

searchfornibiru
If the Moon is off, if Earth wobbles or if there is a pole shift
how can things like this, predicted decades ago, happen?

aseindia
Annular Solar Eclipse - January 15, 2010 - Rameshwaram, India
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 02:52 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
What a Joke. Ac's know script writers who got Planet X written into the scripts for the benefit of the Zeta's THATS A STRETCH of the imagination isn't it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21205708

That's not even what I said. I said I bet some AC IS a script write. Not "knows script writers." IS a script writer. No, that's not a stretch of imagination at all. To think that it's impossible for a script writer to also be a GLP'er is a stretch of imagination.
ALL of what we see on TV and the News is controlled by 3 HUGE CORPS. EVERYTHING.
 Quoting: AC

Oh yeah, like there's some huge conspiracy to profile everyone working on every show on TV, right down to some stupid remake of a kid's cartoon, to make sure they never post on conspiracy websites or get any ideas from there. Bullshit.
For somebody like Nancy to have any pull and by your own account is a flake how the hell would she by your own accounts be able to pull that one off.
 Quoting: AC

Where did I say a thing about Nancy deliberately orchestrating it? I didn't. Stop putting words in my mouth, I don't give her credit for being that clever. She doesn't have to be, there's nothing that says it would be impossible for a Nibiru cultist to also happen to be involved in the creation of a kid's cartoon show and work "Nibiru" into the plot. It doesn't even have to be someone from her cult, there are a number of other internet cults out there that focus on Nibiru including terral's "research group," Donny Gilson's followers, and the "astrolpatriot/skyview team" culties.
Time to grow up my boy and pull your head out of your ass.
 Quoting: AC

Time for you to learn how to read.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


You missed the whole point completely. No way could any group influence a big corporation to put up any thing to do with Nibiru. What a joke to even suggest such a thing. You guys are really grasping at straws now. Ya there's cults and nancy but I don't think myself personally they could influence say somebody as big as Disney. Give me a break. Give us all a break.
Anonymous Coward
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08/22/2012 02:56 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
I'd believe her over the likes of you Menow. I have never liked you tactics. Ever.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22418828


Then you are set for a great FAIL. Nancy has been wrong so many times it's not funny anymore.
Dr. AstroModerator (OP)
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08/22/2012 03:08 PM

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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Back peddle all you want. I'd be moving out of Florida.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21205708


I'm not back peddling; quote me where I said Nancy orchestrated it deliberately. There's no reason for me to move out of Florida, nibiru does not exist.
Thread: Nibiru Analysis *Jupiter analysis on page 20*
Thread: Here's what a brown dwarf would do to the solar system on a 3600 year orbit...
By the way cultie, while I have you here, do you agree with your leader that earth has been stopped in its orbit?
astrobanner2
Menow
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08/22/2012 03:10 PM
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
It is starting to get very CLEAR the Big Picture. They don't start to put out kids shows like this if there wasn't somthing behind it. They DID NOT DEBUNK IT. Rather they left it wide open. Decide for yourselfs but I think there is method to all this madness.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21205708


They put stuff in kids shows because it's part of our general (pop) culture. It's a friggin' CARTOON! Why aren't you worried that there will soon be cars made of stone and logs and blue dogs?
The Dudester

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08/22/2012 03:11 PM

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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
Nancy Leader gives Nibirutards a bad name
"Sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar, well it eats you."
Dr. AstroModerator (OP)
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Re: Jupiter's Orbit is NOT "Off."
What a Joke. Ac's know script writers who got Planet X written into the scripts for the benefit of the Zeta's THATS A STRETCH of the imagination isn't it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21205708

That's not even what I said. I said I bet some AC IS a script write. Not "knows script writers." IS a script writer. No, that's not a stretch of imagination at all. To think that it's impossible for a script writer to also be a GLP'er is a stretch of imagination.
ALL of what we see on TV and the News is controlled by 3 HUGE CORPS. EVERYTHING.
 Quoting: AC

Oh yeah, like there's some huge conspiracy to profile everyone working on every show on TV, right down to some stupid remake of a kid's cartoon, to make sure they never post on conspiracy websites or get any ideas from there. Bullshit.
For somebody like Nancy to have any pull and by your own account is a flake how the hell would she by your own accounts be able to pull that one off.
 Quoting: AC

Where did I say a thing about Nancy deliberately orchestrating it? I didn't. Stop putting words in my mouth, I don't give her credit for being that clever. She doesn't have to be, there's nothing that says it would be impossible for a Nibiru cultist to also happen to be involved in the creation of a kid's cartoon show and work "Nibiru" into the plot. It doesn't even have to be someone from her cult, there are a number of other internet cults out there that focus on Nibiru including terral's "research group," Donny Gilson's followers, and the "astrolpatriot/skyview team" culties.
Time to grow up my boy and pull your head out of your ass.
 Quoting: AC

Time for you to learn how to read.
 Quoting: Dr. Astro


You missed the whole point completely. No way could any group influence a big corporation to put up any thing to do with Nibiru. What a joke to even suggest such a thing. You guys are really grasping at straws now. Ya there's cults and nancy but I don't think myself personally they could influence say somebody as big as Disney. Give me a break. Give us all a break.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22418828


All they have to do is be a writer on the fucking show! You think Disney is going to care? They don't, there's no conspiracy to prevent plots like that from finding their way into a kid's cartoon. Look at yourself, you're citing a fucking cartoon as proof!
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