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Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.

 
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 01:24 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Eww, Skinnychick -- your breath stinks.
verycold
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 03:25 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
"Skinnychick -- your breath stinks" Not the first time someone on this thread has been overwhelmed & had such an adverse reaction to the scent of Truth. If truth is that repulsive to you let me be the first to invite you to leave. If it's simply a matter of the terms used here being to hard for you to understand you can always run upstairs & hope Mommy & Daddy can explain them to you ;-)
Freddddddy
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10/12/2012 03:38 PM
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Eww, Skinnychick -- your breath stinks.
verycold
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25431585


Skinnychick- our breath can stink together! haha. I love the real lazy trolls. :-)
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 04:18 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Wow, this thread really died after the community meeting.
alexisj9

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10/12/2012 04:24 PM
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True and I'm trying to work out why, as that meeting left lot's to discuss, but no one seems to want to.
Freddddddy
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10/12/2012 04:38 PM
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bump
jazz
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10/12/2012 05:04 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
can we get a summory of the meeting? i didnt have time to watch all the vid's. guess i feel there woulda been lots more ?'s than answeres from it.
taniatarn

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10/12/2012 05:22 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
OK so what is in cavern #2???? anyone know??

The reason that it flared was likely due to excess pressure. Cause appears unknown but the process safety valve relieved as it should. It probably has some type of pilot ignition system to flare the gas that is relieved. 40 foot is normal a normal flare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10743136


The butane that they are moving to another cavern in that salt dome..
 Quoting: alexisj9


That is what I have been puzzling over since yesterday...flaring of butane is the only possibly explanation as from what i have read previously that is what crosstex had stored in the cavern...the only reason for flaring off he butane would be as posted above that there has been an increase in pressure...the only way that pressure would be increasing in the cavern is a breach allowing infiltration in to the cavern of something else causing the gas to be forced upwards...

they did state that the only way the gas would become a hazard is if water or similar was pumped in to the cavern because the butane is heavier than air therefore will not exit the cavern unless under pressure.....

Yep was definitely Butane according to this article..

[link to theadvocate.com]

so something is putting the butane under pressure to get it to rise in the cavern...sound like this cavern is breached!
Interested observer of all things interesting!

Please note : Where appropriate for posted images/ graphs I acknowledge the New Zealand GeoNet project and its sponsors EQC, GNS Science and LINZ, for providing data/images used in my study and analyses of Volcanic and Earthquake information in New Zealand.
ChiaPet

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10/12/2012 05:41 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
can we get a summory of the meeting? i didnt have time to watch all the vid's. guess i feel there woulda been lots more ?'s than answeres from it.
 Quoting: jazz 22000823



I haven't watched all of them - will do that now. Maybe get a chance to see them "deer eyes in the headlights."
~ Matthew 7:16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?
~ Don't worry, be Hopi.
ChiaPet

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10/12/2012 05:41 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
can we get a summory of the meeting? i didnt have time to watch all the vid's. guess i feel there woulda been lots more ?'s than answeres from it.
 Quoting: jazz 22000823



I haven't watched all of them - will do that now. Maybe get a chance to see them "deer eyes in the headlights."
~ Matthew 7:16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?
~ Don't worry, be Hopi.
ChiaPet

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10/12/2012 05:43 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
can we get a summory of the meeting? i didnt have time to watch all the vid's. guess i feel there woulda been lots more ?'s than answeres from it.
 Quoting: jazz 22000823



I haven't watched all of them - will do that now. Maybe get a chance to see them "deer eyes in the headlights."
~ Matthew 7:16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?
~ Don't worry, be Hopi.
ChiaPet

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10/12/2012 05:47 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
can we get a summory of the meeting? i didnt have time to watch all the vid's. guess i feel there woulda been lots more ?'s than answeres from it.
 Quoting: jazz 22000823



I haven't watched all of them - will do that now. Maybe get a chance to see them "deer eyes in the headlights."
 Quoting: ChiaPet


Sorry triple post... It storming lightening out here in the desert.
~ Matthew 7:16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?
~ Don't worry, be Hopi.
Earth Cries

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10/12/2012 06:24 PM

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Washington Post: Persistent rumors on ‘blogs’ that BP’s oil continues to spew into Gulf — FSU Expert: May be freshly released from Macondo reservoir

[link to enenews.com]
Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 06:27 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
I'm as real as they come AC, I put my life in harms way, as do others I know, to dig for the truth and bring it to light, no matter what teh cost. We invest a lot of time and our well being and ask nothing in return other than willing ears that want to listen, learn and survive. rockon
 Quoting: siniXster


To all of you who honestly think this lady is a shill, well, clearly you haven't been here long... or not very involved at least :) (and by HERE I mean GLP.. not just this thread)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14779720

Lol, thank you for the support, fyi I'm all man...the lady you may be referring to is RadChick, my partner in crime, hehe. <3
 Quoting: siniXster


For real? I think I may like you even more now... DAMN.

And wtf people talking about stinky breath now?

LOL I love it here :)
taniatarn

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10/12/2012 06:37 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
OK so what is in cavern #2???? anyone know??

The reason that it flared was likely due to excess pressure. Cause appears unknown but the process safety valve relieved as it should. It probably has some type of pilot ignition system to flare the gas that is relieved. 40 foot is normal a normal flare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10743136


The butane that they are moving to another cavern in that salt dome..
 Quoting: alexisj9


That is what I have been puzzling over since yesterday...flaring of butane is the only possibly explanation as from what i have read previously that is what crosstex had stored in the cavern...the only reason for flaring off he butane would be as posted above that there has been an increase in pressure...the only way that pressure would be increasing in the cavern is a breach allowing infiltration in to the cavern of something else causing the gas to be forced upwards...

they did state that the only way the gas would become a hazard is if water or similar was pumped in to the cavern because the butane is heavier than air therefore will not exit the cavern unless under pressure.....

Yep was definitely Butane according to this article..

[link to theadvocate.com]

so something is putting the butane under pressure to get it to rise in the cavern...sound like this cavern is breached!
 Quoting: taniatarn


Actually thinking about it a little more...and have now figured out the link I was missing which makes my first theory incorrect...the Butane in the cavern is liquid butane because it is UNDER PRESSURE...very high pressure that causes it to be in a liquid state. For it to change state in to a gas and rise the pressure would need to be decreased....

Therefore two scenarios are possible...something is causing the liquid butane to rise ....this would require injection of water or similar that is heavier than the liquid butane...

OR...( and I think more likely )

the cavern has been de-pressurised somehow....most likely by a breach of some description somewhere in the cavern...this was the first sign that the texas brine cavern was compromised...alack of expected pressure..

ALSO...I still havent seen an explanation or plausible theory anywhere as to why there was a delay between Texas Brine drilling in to the compromised cavern....and the gas/hydrocarbons not appearing for sometime after the cavern was originally entered...what caused the delay- the gas should have instantly been released as soon as the cavern was entered???
And now the cavern is obviously under constant gas pressure as they reported having to flare it to keep the pressure from building....
Interested observer of all things interesting!

Please note : Where appropriate for posted images/ graphs I acknowledge the New Zealand GeoNet project and its sponsors EQC, GNS Science and LINZ, for providing data/images used in my study and analyses of Volcanic and Earthquake information in New Zealand.
REMJR1

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10/12/2012 06:43 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
OK so what is in cavern #2???? anyone know??

The reason that it flared was likely due to excess pressure. Cause appears unknown but the process safety valve relieved as it should. It probably has some type of pilot ignition system to flare the gas that is relieved. 40 foot is normal a normal flare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10743136


The butane that they are moving to another cavern in that salt dome..
 Quoting: alexisj9


That is what I have been puzzling over since yesterday...flaring of butane is the only possibly explanation as from what i have read previously that is what crosstex had stored in the cavern...the only reason for flaring off he butane would be as posted above that there has been an increase in pressure...the only way that pressure would be increasing in the cavern is a breach allowing infiltration in to the cavern of something else causing the gas to be forced upwards...

they did state that the only way the gas would become a hazard is if water or similar was pumped in to the cavern because the butane is heavier than air therefore will not exit the cavern unless under pressure.....

Yep was definitely Butane according to this article..

[link to theadvocate.com]

so something is putting the butane under pressure to get it to rise in the cavern...sound like this cavern is breached!
 Quoting: taniatarn


^^^^^^^ My thought exactly. NOT good news but I do Thank You for the link.
Wake up & smell reality.
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 06:59 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Not to be a naysayer, the cavern could be breached, but if they were removing the butane and they removed it too quickly a line could have frozen which could have caused the flare.
Let Freedom Ring

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10/12/2012 07:22 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Check out the earthquakes in Venezuela. I remember at the time of DWH blowout that it was reported the vein of oil that was spewing also ran to Venezuela. I beth they are having toruble with sinkholes, methane there also.
 Quoting: Let Freedom Ring


Yep they have some, this one is from 2010, do not know if there are any more recent.

[link to www.laht.com]
 Quoting: alexisj9


I forgot to post link to globalincident map, with 4.9 quake in Venezuela today.

[link to quakes.globalincidentmap.com]
taniatarn

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10/12/2012 07:26 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Not to be a naysayer, the cavern could be breached, but if they were removing the butane and they removed it too quickly a line could have frozen which could have caused the flare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10743136


I hope you are correct...the article does state the following-

However, the company planned by early Thursday evening to resume flaring through the night to remove butane from lines connected to the caverns and do repairs, Boudreaux said.

This comment suggests that something is broken...BUT the article then goes on to state..

"Jill McMillan, spokeswoman for Crosstex, said the flaring was an emergency response mechanism related to Crosstex’s Cavern No. 2, which is closer to the sinkhole of the company’s two caverns.

She said company officials are working on why flaring happened.
"

The wording of that statement suggests that they dont know why the emergency response mechanism was activated....if it was as you suggested surely they would know this immediately???
Interested observer of all things interesting!

Please note : Where appropriate for posted images/ graphs I acknowledge the New Zealand GeoNet project and its sponsors EQC, GNS Science and LINZ, for providing data/images used in my study and analyses of Volcanic and Earthquake information in New Zealand.
Paa Tal

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10/12/2012 07:41 PM

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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Not to be a naysayer, the cavern could be breached, but if they were removing the butane and they removed it too quickly a line could have frozen which could have caused the flare.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10743136


I hope you are correct...the article does state the following-

However, the company planned by early Thursday evening to resume flaring through the night to remove butane from lines connected to the caverns and do repairs, Boudreaux said.

This comment suggests that something is broken...BUT the article then goes on to state..

"Jill McMillan, spokeswoman for Crosstex, said the flaring was an emergency response mechanism related to Crosstex’s Cavern No. 2, which is closer to the sinkhole of the company’s two caverns.

She said company officials are working on why flaring happened.
"

The wording of that statement suggests that they dont know why the emergency response mechanism was activated....if it was as you suggested surely they would know this immediately???
 Quoting: taniatarn


Seems like something broke and activated the emergency response mechanism. Hence, the need to do repairs and additional flaring.
I AM THAT I AM
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 08:25 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Taniatarn, usually but not always the oil and gas companies have a pretty good idea of what has happened but will not come out to the public with details right away until they know the extent of the damage or what caused it.

There are several regulatory agencies that they report to and they can not go off speculation.

Does that make sense?
taniatarn

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10/12/2012 08:36 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Taniatarn, usually but not always the oil and gas companies have a pretty good idea of what has happened but will not come out to the public with details right away until they know the extent of the damage or what caused it.

There are several regulatory agencies that they report to and they can not go off speculation.

Does that make sense?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10743136


Oh yeah....keeping things from the public...that makes sense alright!

After all they want to be sure to get their stories straight!
Interested observer of all things interesting!

Please note : Where appropriate for posted images/ graphs I acknowledge the New Zealand GeoNet project and its sponsors EQC, GNS Science and LINZ, for providing data/images used in my study and analyses of Volcanic and Earthquake information in New Zealand.
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 08:39 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Ok, I just HAD to peek.

I wondered what the link was between fungus (recent cases) and Craig Venter, or if there even was one.

[link to www.jcvi.org]

If I read this right. Synthia -the first artifical life that reproduced- was created with chemicals, a computer and the genome of a fungus.

Can anyone out there follow my thinking and/or elaborate???????
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10743136


Sure, there is a probable link, we just need to prove it. But on another line of thought perhaps synthia and the problems it creates or could create are better than not using something like synthia to mop up the oil and hydrocarbons released in the gulf. As my thinking is that the problem and blow out were intentional for releasing the building pressure and as a preventative measure, to what could have been a major catastrophe. Just a possible explanation. So it has taken two plus years for the pressure to rebuild and we are seeing the result of this in the form of leaks and fracturing of the ocean floor in the gulf and methane being released through the earths crust in a various of locations on dry land. sk
 Quoting: seeker2

sk, I understand your line of thinking that Synthia may be a better option than nothing at all but the huge hole in that theory is that neither we nor the creator of this aberration knows exactly what happened after it's introduction into the Macondo Well B and just what mutations have resulted from the presence of both Corexit and radiation from Fukushima playing their respective roles. It's a biological crap shoot and Meningitis may be, just as the sinkhole, the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
 Quoting: siniXster


Theory is that Synthia met previous life form cells in GOM = mutation out of control.
RadChick

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10/12/2012 10:39 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
Informative post on another thread, wanted to share it here:

From: Re: Sinkhole emergency butane flared 40 !!!!!!!!Emergency response”


The "flare" isn't actually coming from the cavern itself, and never did.

They are flaring through a flare stack, a tall joint of pipe with an ignition source at the top that burns unwanted/dangerous/etc material... no flames inside the cavern.

A 40' flare may sound huge, but I have seen (and worked on) much larger on a daily basis for many years.

I have years of experience with these. I can see the point of flaring out of a stack in this setting being a double-edge sword... the height of the flame will help ensure that no dense, low-lying combustibles are ignited during this operation, but I have seen large gusts of wind carry flames much larger than this close enough to the ground to cause concern... this may be why the emergency response plan was enacted, the choke was opened too much letting an unsafe amount of gas flare at once...

A thermal oxidizer would have been a MUCH safer option in this setting. An enclosed flare that eliminates most of the pollutants and dangerous by-products of flaring before releasing them into the atmosphere... much more expensive than flaring, which is why it wasn't chosen.

From my experience I would say the flaring is safe, at the moment. Roads were closed briefly (which I'm sure is where "emergency response" came into this), probably to make sure once the choke was backed off that the flare would back off as well.

But I will also confirm one thing: oil and gas companies don't give a fuck about your health. They don't care about your safety. They don't care if you're dead or alive, the loss of our lives would be considered collateral damage, as many have said before me. Money and greed power the machine. There is no rule, state or federal, that won't bend FOR THEM. It is my job to ensure that these rules are upheld, and that the general public is kept safe. I have been in the corporate offices of almost every major energy company to discuss their safety programs and contingency planning, and I have witnessed in most cases a blatant disregard for the safety of humanity and the environment. The only thing they are concerned with protecting is the almighty buck.

With that being said, I don't mean to downplay this situation at all, but people freaking out about the flaring should target their concerns at the many other dangerous factors going on now... this is an impending disaster, no way around that.

I have been asked by many of these companies to turn a blind eye as they break the rules, but refuse. Fuck putting a price on human life.. animal life... any life. I have averted many shady operations in the past, but this one is completely out of my realm, and I am deeply concerned with how it's going to turn out.

Pray, love, send positive energy, whatever your thing is, to the people of Louisiana... and the many other areas that this could potentially affect. This situation is no joking matter.

Quoting: StingOwens

Responded back to him with a few more questions.

Last Edited by RadChick on 10/12/2012 10:44 PM
Founder of Nuked Radio

Thread: MAYDAY: The Wigner Effect

”To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
~Thomas Paine
remjr1
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10/12/2012 11:05 PM
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Thank You for that info RadCchick! Any chance you can give us a link to the thread you are referring to?
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 11:13 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
@ RadChick

you said that this situation is "an impending disaster".

could you please tell us what you think is the major
problem at this point, and how do see this present
problem turning into the "impending disaster" of which you speak.
Anonymous Coward
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10/12/2012 11:28 PM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
BP nuked a fault line, compromised it. There's a very active gas pocket in GOM, a newly discovered techtonic plate under Louisiana Bayou, and the New Madrid Seismic Zone is unstable, with a major grid of natural gas pipelines and 15 nuclear plants nearby. Also theory is that Synthia, rather than merely eating crude oil, mixed with substances and then mutated, now out of control and entering land, aquifers, water supply.
KimbaTheWhiteLion

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10/13/2012 12:55 AM

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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
bump
thadividedsky

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10/13/2012 01:21 AM

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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
I posted this in another thread, it puts the potential destruction into perspective.
ok. here is some research I put together, maybe some of you can figure out what I am trying to convey.
This is from [link to www.ehow.com]
Butane and propane in their natural states are gases at room temperature, but they are normally compressed into liquids for everyday use. This is done so that the butane or propane can be easily transported and used, since in their gaseous state they take up a much larger volume. Both are readily flammable. Butane is used in cigarette lighters and has a flash point of -76 to -117 degrees Fahrenheit. Propane is commonly used with barbecues and has a flash point of -156 degrees.

Now we know there is 1.5 million barrels of liquid butane in a salt dome near the sink hole and apprently that going off would equal 5.8 trillion BTUs. source [link to sincedutch.wordpress.com]
source material for conversion---> [link to www.extension.iastate.edu (secure)]
Lets do the math to get an idea how many BTUs are in a barrel of liquid butane and we'll go the conservative route and use the LHV or low heating value. 1 barrel contains 3,906,000 BTUs. Times that by 1.5 million barrels and we get 5,859,000,000,000 or 5.859 trillion BTUs. Granted liquid butane is a flammable liquid and not a combustible liquid, this is still a massive amount of energy. More so it is encapuslated in a cavern under pressure. If this were to be sparked, it would be very very bad. That would be equal to a 1.477431223829 megatons (source of conversion- [link to online.unitconverterpro.com]
The Hiroshima bomb was .02 megaton or 20 kilotons. However modern nuclear weapons are around 1 megaton, the idea is you can do more damage with 10 1 megaton weapons then 1 10 megaton weapon. Um, It doesn't take a math genius to see that if this cavern containing this liquid butane were to be ignited, it will be very very very bad. It's 1 thing for liquid butane to be ignited in open air as compared to being in a compressed environment with what I expect to be butane in gas form near the top and think of the immense pressures involved in containing this stuff. Think of it like a fire cracker, if you rest it on an open hand, it'll burn you, hold it in a fist and buh bye hand, you'll get the name "captain hook". This is not good at all. Whoever thought it was a good idea to contain anything like this, including toxic waste and radiological material in caverns inside the earth is a fucking retard.
RadChick

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10/13/2012 01:31 AM
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Re: Don't make ASSUMPTIONS; try to Understand.
@ RadChick

you said that this situation is "an impending disaster".

could you please tell us what you think is the major
problem at this point, and how do see this present
problem turning into the "impending disaster" of which you speak.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25192789


Sorry this quote ^^ comes from this thread, from someone named StingerOwen who sounded very knowledgeable...tried to post it in a quote box but wouldnt work:

Thread: Sinkhole emergency butane flared 40 !!!!!!!!Emergency response” (Page 2)

I asked if he could give some more details about his assesment of the current situation and will watch the thread and post if he replies.

Last Edited by RadChick on 10/13/2012 01:32 AM
Founder of Nuked Radio

Thread: MAYDAY: The Wigner Effect

”To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
~Thomas Paine


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