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Was Castaneda Right?

 
ehecatl

User ID: 22997086
Mexico
09/01/2012 02:18 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Castaneda was clear for decades that his books were not allegory or metaphor and that he was re telling events that actually occurred. There is no doubt whatsoever about this. Whether it's true or not will be debated forever.

Say what you want about Castaneda, but he never sold out his story to Hollywood, though he was offered God knows how much money over and over ... never sold out to the speaking circuit ... and, obviously accomplished many of the tasks set forth for him by Don Juan. He lived a remarkable life and told a magical story.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132

Actually I am not sure what you mean by "sold out", because that would imply compromising ones values for money, and it is not necessarily true one is compromising ones values in a way that matters simply by accepting money.

But if you want to put it that way, then Castaneda sold out when he started accepting royalties on his first best seller.

He did do a sort of small speaking circuit in the US and Mexico in the late '80s early '90s which were either free or low cost. He drew larger audiences in Mexico. In the mid to late 90's Carlos started to charge more like a western cult leader. The book "Caught up in the Tremendum" by Jose Morales is illuminating in that regard.

On the other hand I attended Tensegrity workshops with Miles and others in the late '90's where there was no talk of money. When you get something for free you are not so concerned if they are selling out to others.

Most of the native practitioners I know in Central Mexico have policies to refuse money, although they accept small gifts. Armando Torres say the same for the authentic traditional groups he knows.

Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/01/2012 02:19 PM
ehecatl

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09/01/2012 05:34 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
This book is a very detailed, interesting, and well written insiders point of view in regards to Castaneda of the 1990's.

While the work would probably be considered to be a sort of negative debunking to Castanda-tards, it provides so many illuminating details which would be of interest to any person who is either pro or anti Castaneda.

The thing is, is that I feel that whatever case Jose Morales is making against Castaneda is more of a vaguely defined emotional issue, but Morales also applauds Castaneda in many ways, and in the process, and with Morales' super-descriptive style of writing, lot's of interesting things come through to one who can read between the lines.

I don't know if anyone has translated this all to English yet but it is public domain and free for download here, and I've translated about a half a dozen of the chapters -

If you read spanish, have at it, you'll love it.
If you want to see my translation, I've translated chapters 12, 13, and 44. Thought I translated more of that, but maybe not, or it is on an old disk.

[link to www.federaljack.com]

Atrapado en el Tremendo, Juan Morales
Caught up in the Tremendum, by Juan Morales

Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/01/2012 06:28 PM
ehecatl

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09/01/2012 06:37 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
OK, Here is chapter 44 of Caught up in the Tremendum in English.

Caught Up in the Tremendum
The system of knowledge of Carlos Castaneda
By Juan Morales (trans. ehecatl/traveler)

47 chapters in total.
Chapter 44. The third premise of the warrior’s way


In the referred to {in prior chapter} ‘Number 3’ of the Journal of Infinity by Castaneda, it goes on to propose that the third premise of the warrior’s way is: “perception must be intended in its completeness. Don Juan said that perception is perception, and that it is void of good or evil”. And here again Castaneda wielded his narrator aptitude as a storyteller referencing don Juan who told him, “What I say are not merely words, but precise references from my book of navigation.”

Castaneda began to establish in his text counterpoints with respect to what don Juan was saying, and the more that the affirmations of don Juan seemed to be a metaphor, the more that he did his best to convince us that it was not a metaphor as such.

In this manner: “The first time that don Juan mentioned his book of navigation, I felt very taken by what I took to be a metaphor,” to which don Juan answered, “Metaphor, my eye!”, he said. The sorcerer’s book of navigation is not like any of your arrangements of words”. It seems that don Juan said that the Journal of Navigation is something substantial, more concrete than we could ever imagine, a type of record.

Castaneda confesses to us then what he was thinking in the crucial moment in which he was speaking of this with don Juan, “When I placed that question I was thinking, naturally, about oral history or about the ability of the people to preserve their tales in the form of stories, especially the people that lived prior to written language, or people that today live on the margin of civilization.” And don Juan disappointed him once more, “It is not an encyclopedia!”, he said, “It is a journal of navigation, brief and precise.”

According to Carlos Castaneda, don Juan told him that shamans succeeded in perceiving energy directly as such and as it flows in the universe, and by their special discipline they can skip the process of intellectual or rational perception, and arrive directly at the essence of energy “without the intervention of the mind”; that is to say, “when they are in a state of total inner silence.”

These speculations or revelations of Carlos Castaneda are interesting in the sense that they propose a direct leap to an efficacious emptiness, which, in effect, shuts off, erases, all previous information. Everything changes into a pure act. Into an act of the body, with something beyond the consciousness that thinks, beyond the capacity with which you are now reading. Castaneda finished by explaining the reach that this existential ability had for the ancient seers. “Their adeptness in the management of this force became so extraordinary that their actions transformed into legends; mythological events that exist only as fables.

For example, one of the stories about the ancient shamans that don Juan told, spoke of their capacity to dissolve their physical mass simply by focusing their total consciousness and intent with that force… they were never left totally satisfied with the result of this maneuver of dissolving their mass. The reason for their dissatisfaction is due to the fact that once their mass dissolves, their capacity to act also dissolves. They were only left with the alternative of being witnesses to events in which they are incapable of participating… their fervent desire was to be able to act from their ghostly position of beings without mass, something that, don Juan said, will never be realized.”

The preaching techniques of Carlos Castaneda have been those of an old hand in regard to those who receive his information. Margaret Runyan Castaneda explained in her revealing book about the etiology, the beginnings of the Nagual Castaneda, after analyzing the similarities that she noted in various episodes narrated by Castaneda, with respect to the conversations that he had in his circle of friends and in his own family, that: “Clearly, parts of the conversations were false, but don Juan was real. He was a real Indian, someone whom Carlos went to see on his trips. Since Castaneda told everything in a readable manner, the don Juan of his books changed into a different creature; a broad and omniscient construction made up of equal parts of a real Indian, the pure imagination of Castaneda, the investigation of books, and dozens of conversations and experiences with people like my son Carlton Jeremy, myself, Mike Harner, colleagues from UCLA, his grandfather, and others.”

The most effective literary appeal was, finally, a resourceful builder of myths par excellence, always speaking of something that a third person said, who becomes god-like, situated in an invisible and untouchable place; a figure in which, therefore, there unfolds all possible omnipotence, without it being directly feasible for the reader to verify anything, apart from receiving information along with that which is being constructed, and reinforcing the figure every time more.

Socrates, Jesus Christ, or Buddha, for example, never wrote anything. It was always other people who wrote about them, and really, the mythic structure functions in man when the protagonist figures are made inaccessible in space or in time. Even the crimes that may have been committed by whoever, are forgotten, and only the heroic deeds survive. If we were able to see from three yards away the acts of Alexander the Great (who sacrificed young boys to purge his pain of the death of one of his preferred boyfriends), or Charlemagne, or whatever emperor in turn, we would be sickened by their lives, but with hundreds of years the sight that reaches us is only what their monuments say, and always some lame story, told by the conquerors. Franco or Hitler, within a hundred years, will be saviors of their homelands. And Jesus Christ, Buddha, and Socrates, have become divine creatures.

Castaneda used the literary appeal of the construction of myths par excellence. Margaret Runyan says in her previously mentioned book, A Magical Journey with Carlos Castaneda:

“There were only a few friends in that period with whom Carlos felt comfortable, especially Allen Morrison and a Costa Rican called Byron de Ford, a pre-psychology student at Los Angeles Community College. They came to the apartment of Carlos on North New Hampshire Street with myself and a few girlfriends like Sue, and we all drank and talked until sunrise.”

In one of those reunions, it was 1959, “Byron spoke of a few texts about great religions that he had been reading. He mentioned that Buddha had never written anything, and there only existed manuscripts about what he had said. The same with Jesus Christ. The story of the great teacher of Galilee, Byron said to everyone, was written by his disciples, probably influenced by time, the ancient scriptures and some myths in full bloom. Everybody agreed, including Carlos. No proofs exist that these philosopher god men really had said that which has been written in those historical texts. What has reached us are the words of the chroniclers, not those of Buddha or Jesus.”

“I interrupted him: ’If I were to tell you that I have discovered the fundamental way of life, and I could explain to you exactly how to achieve it, it would be very difficult for you to accept.’ Byron nodded. Carlos nodded. And I continued, ’But if I tell you what a mysterious teacher has revealed to me, who has initiated me into some great mysteries, then it will seem more interesting. It’s much easier to accept.’ Like The Razor’s Edge, said Allen. Like Siddartha, said Byron. Carlos nodded as if understanding perfectly.”

The vital force of man functions at the highest percentage if there is an unknown mystery, a “mysterium tremendum” after which he seeks. From the sexual objective to the religious, dealing with power or saving, the whole journey and the motor of the human being can be reduced to pursuing the unknown. Once the unknown is revealed, the vital force is deflated. And Carlos Castaneda spoke always of don Juan and of sorcerers that we never knew. Only him.
 Quoting: CaughtUpInTheTremendum,JuanMorales


Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/02/2012 02:52 PM
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/01/2012 09:19 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
What Castaneda did, better than nearly all writers of his generation, is make a very mysterious world accessible to a very wide audience. He also was able to take a nearly destroyed culture and reveal it's awe and wonder.

If his story is true, it is one of the greatest stories ever told, if it is manufactured, it is one of the most interesting examples of how fiction can change millions of lives.
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 09:36 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
thank you ehecatl, this was an interesting read.

Anyway, i have a question. Maybe some of you may have an another answer.

Do you think it is possible to really learn something regarding the deeper mysteries and secrets of this current existence we experience - or life - through reading a book?

Why do we speak, write or read at all? It's all about information, isn't it? But for what is this information good?

IN-FORMATION

again .. ..

IN-FORMATION

From where does Information come from? Information can only come from the Known. The Known tells us that something is not IN-ORDER. The 'normal' behaviour of a human being, when confronted with something which is not IN-ORDER (or confronted with a Paradox) would be or is to search for answers to create Harmony which means you would search for new IN-FORMATION.

Have any of you been catapulted into the Unknown? Have any of you lost your FORM?

Castaneda and his books cannot be understood when not having experienced the Unknown in the first place. Nothing can be learned from Castanedas books although they are highly entertaining from the view of an purposed Un-experienced-one. They don't serve nothing, not even for some a kind of verification purpose.

The same is true for countless other spiritual books, or techniques, Yoga for example. In the case of Yoga, one learns different body postures to awaken different energy-pools/chakras. You never hear from so called Yoga-Gurus that 'awakening' comes first (without any reference to chakras at all!) where only after 'awakening' come the postures and then those postures come involuntarily.

What is happening here?
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 09:40 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
If we are indeed infinite beings that have existed for literally eternity, why have we no memory of it? What reasonable purpose does that serve?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


The answer is pretty simple...we have NOT existed for eternity. We were born, like a cockroach is born, and is stepped on by something bigger than itself. You will not live after you die and you did not live before you were born.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20657814


This is a lie to make you believe there is nothing after death. So when the time comes to introduce you to the singularity, you will have hope to live on in a machine. Will you take that chance of being wrong?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19035887


>The answer is pretty simple...we have NOT existed for eternity.

agree

>We were born, like a cockroach is born, and is stepped on by something bigger than itself.

agree

>you did not live before you were born.

agree

>You will not live after you die.

disagree

>This is a lie to make you belive there is nothing after death. So when the time comes to introduce you to the singularity, you will have hope to live on in a machine.

by machine r u referring to our existence here on the earth?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/01/2012 09:41 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Do you think it is possible to really learn something regarding the deeper mysteries and secrets of this current existence we experience - or life - through reading a book?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20295459


Of course it is. The experience of others can be incredibly powerful in helping us understand more beyond our current limitations. Can a book give us a direct glimpse of non-ordinary reality? Of course not. Can a book give us a path to that discovery and the motivation to go there? Yes.

The spiritual path is very challenging and books can provide the necessary fuel of ideas, inspiration and encouragement to keep going.

They can also become a real stumbling block. And, unfortunately, much of what is written about the spiritual path is written by novices that really shouldn't be influencing anyone.
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 09:43 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Casteneda, like Obarkytron, has been revealed as a monstrous fraud.

He made it all up.

damned
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 09:45 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Why human babies are so absolutely helpless for so long is a clue, I believe. Many animals are born with a lot of memory from day one ... they run with the herd literally in minutes ... can pick out there mother from thousands of similar looking herd-mates.

Dolphins and whales ... the beings on the planet with brains our size and bigger are obviously born with far more innate memory.

It makes no sense whatsoever, from a sheer survival perspective for humans to be born in such a helpless state that remains for so long ...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


Maybe because we were meant to live much longer, like 2 to 3 hundreds years...?
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/01/2012 09:50 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Casteneda, like Obarkytron, has been revealed as a monstrous fraud.

He made it all up.

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


If so, his research was astonishing, to say the least. And, his storytelling would compete with the greatest of all time.

But then again, you've got the evidence of how he lived his life. Clearly he followed many of the lessons he wrote about. His erasing of his own personal history is nothing less than remarkable.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/01/2012 09:51 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Why human babies are so absolutely helpless for so long is a clue, I believe. Many animals are born with a lot of memory from day one ... they run with the herd literally in minutes ... can pick out there mother from thousands of similar looking herd-mates.

Dolphins and whales ... the beings on the planet with brains our size and bigger are obviously born with far more innate memory.

It makes no sense whatsoever, from a sheer survival perspective for humans to be born in such a helpless state that remains for so long ...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


Maybe because we were meant to live much longer, like 2 to 3 hundreds years...?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22962742


How do you know this? "Meant" by who or what?
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 09:56 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Casteneda, like Obarkytron, has been revealed as a monstrous fraud.

He made it all up.

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


If so, his research was astonishing, to say the least. And, his storytelling would compete with the greatest of all time.

But then again, you've got the evidence of how he lived his life. Clearly he followed many of the lessons he wrote about. His erasing of his own personal history is nothing less than remarkable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


bump for truth
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 09:57 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Casteneda, like Obarkytron, has been revealed as a monstrous fraud.

He made it all up.

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


If so, his research was astonishing, to say the least. And, his storytelling would compete with the greatest of all time.

But then again, you've got the evidence of how he lived his life. Clearly he followed many of the lessons he wrote about. His erasing of his own personal history is nothing less than remarkable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


I read all his early books.

"Don Juan" and the "Nagual", were compelling.

Yes, he was a magnificent writer, and also a Jim Jones-type cult leader.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 10:00 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
His description of the way the Eagle operates matches very precisely to the gnostic descriptions of the Archons (not the GLP version of the Archons).
 Quoting: Mycelium


He consistently stated through all his writings that the most important task to reclaim our power is to first reclaim our true memory ... which he acknowledged is a monumental task. The recapitulation. From experience with decades of meditation, it is astonishing how much happens to us that we instantly forget.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132



Same thing Hubbard said in Scientology and the processes you have heard about are simply ways to aid you in remembering.. and interestingly, he originally didn't get into past lives when he wrote Dianetics but then a majority of the people working on the processes started remembering their past lives without being asked .. and that is why Ron formulated Scientology as a further concept and development on the original Dianetic thesis.
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 10:03 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Casteneda, like Obarkytron, has been revealed as a monstrous fraud.

He made it all up.

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


If so, his research was astonishing, to say the least. And, his storytelling would compete with the greatest of all time.

But then again, you've got the evidence of how he lived his life. Clearly he followed many of the lessons he wrote about. His erasing of his own personal history is nothing less than remarkable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


I read all his early books.

"Don Juan" and the "Nagual", were compelling.

Yes, he was a magnificent writer, and also a Jim Jones-type cult leader.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


I never saw and still don't see any connection to Jim Jones or likeness to any of JJ's teachings, intent and/or control issues..
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 10:05 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Casteneda, like Obarkytron, has been revealed as a monstrous fraud.

He made it all up.

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


so says the establishment as the establishment always says.. who you going to believe?
Anonymous Coward
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09/01/2012 10:09 PM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Do you think it is possible to really learn something regarding the deeper mysteries and secrets of this current existence we experience - or life - through reading a book?

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20295459

Of course it is. The experience of others can be incredibly powerful in helping us understand more beyond our current limitations. Can a book give us a direct glimpse of non-ordinary reality? Of course not. Can a book give us a path to that discovery and the motivation to go there? Yes.

The spiritual path is very challenging and books can provide the necessary fuel of ideas, inspiration and encouragement to keep going.

They can also become a real stumbling block. And, unfortunately, much of what is written about the spiritual path is written by novices that really shouldn't be influencing anyone.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132

>Socrates, Jesus Christ, or Buddha, for example, never wrote anything. It was always other people who wrote about them, and really, the mythic structure functions in man when the protagonist figures are made inaccessible in space or in time...Jesus Christ, Buddha, and Socrates, have become divine creatures.

...why does an author continue to write,

because that respective person is not up to the standard of a christ or buddah or socrates. but the writer does make a difference..

will we ever see a writer that encompasses this league? possibly..

it is also possible that someone will just explode out of the blue with a totally new ideology that is unrelated to anything.. then we will find out that what we now call religions were same as worship of one or two rocks.. that we have been in actuality.. worshiping rocks..

for mellinia..
seeker2

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09/02/2012 04:36 AM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Their is no need to dig through our ancient past as things will be revealed a new. The remnants of the last golden age as expressed through the secret societies up till now, are but hollow remains. Lost was the true understanding during the dark age of the Kali Yuga (dark age of forgetfulness, the fall.)Reduced to mental reasoning with the lower mind usurping the place of spirit, absent true understanding which only comes from direct experience. You all now hold the keys to your own enlightenment if you have the eyes to see what is before you.

But you must go to kindergarten before you can go to grad school. Do your inner work and the rest will come, slow at first but with ever increasing speed as you release limiting beleif structure that blind one to ones true nature. Fear not, none will be left behind, for how does one leave a part of ones self behind. sk
Anonymous Coward
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09/02/2012 05:15 AM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
OK, Here is chapter 44 of Caught up in the Tremendum in English.


 Quoting: ehecatl


Thanks a bunch for all your efforts .... i'll need a couple of days to read it a year to digest it .


LLT
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/02/2012 10:48 AM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
Casteneda, like Obarkytron, has been revealed as a monstrous fraud.

He made it all up.

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


If so, his research was astonishing, to say the least. And, his storytelling would compete with the greatest of all time.

But then again, you've got the evidence of how he lived his life. Clearly he followed many of the lessons he wrote about. His erasing of his own personal history is nothing less than remarkable.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


I read all his early books.

"Don Juan" and the "Nagual", were compelling.

Yes, he was a magnificent writer, and also a Jim Jones-type cult leader.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22985962


Castaneda like Jim Jones? Huh?
I never saw and still don't see any connection to Jim Jones or likeness to any of JJ's teachings, intent and/or control issues..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1112577
ehecatl

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09/02/2012 11:38 AM
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
It is an interesting and perhaps universal trait of human behavior that we will grant a lot more authenticity to third hand information than we will to second hand information.

So if I tell you something I know, it is not as authentic as if I say that it is something my uncle told me....
uncle

This being said, when all along our primary problem is what seeker2 insinuates, that we do not trust or disregard our very own first hand thoughts and intuition.

There is a local chaman who is well known and many hold him in high regard. He is in effect egoless and open minded as far as myself and others can tell, much more so than I can say for most of the others.

I once showed up alone in his kitchen early in the morning to ask him about the most basic matter of first understanding reality as energy.

He just looked at me and smiled, said nothing, and did that sort of leap towards me that the Tensegrity people refer to as "waking up the body".

For about ten seconds I was sort of blinded to my normal view of the world, but looking towards the chaman I just "saw" what could be described as a bundle of countless pearlescent white fibers, although I did not really see them physically, but that is the best way of describing. Each fiber could be examined, and it was a particular thought, and that thought extended off to infinity to where it connected to any other bundle that shared that thought.

The whole bundle of thoughts in front of me represented the whole being of the chaman.

For a whole week afterwards a sort of metaphor occurred to where I felt spider webs falling on me, especially from people who look at me with some kind of intent, it would leave the sensation of a spider web falling on my body.

Since that time I have been much more aware of my intuition concerning people I meet at random in public. My intuition usually begins on a simple level to where I can see a persons chosen spirit age. Some babies have old spirits, and some old people have young spirits, and only a few people have spirit ages which match their physical age. That is generally where my intuition starts, but sometimes it runs much deeper than that, and it all happens in an instant, before there is much time to reflect on it.

I don't expect anyone to believe me though, because it is difficult enough to believe myself. So this is for seeker2.

Let's get back to the more comfortable solid ground of western thought, which is composed of second hand and especially third hand information which we like most of all. Not this slippery first-hand "crap".

****************
I've been around various types of chamans healers and common old illiterate but wise old folks here in central Mexico for about ten years. Some of these people are well known and college educated native leaders and others are near-illiterate, living in the most rustic conditions off the grid like most of the culture has for centuries.

In regards to what Carlos Castaneda wrote, compared to what I see and hear in these people I come up with the following general presumptions.

1) The ideas conveyed in the first five books, and some key elements of the sixth book, Fire from Within, these ideas all seem to find confirmations or reflections in the native/mestizo or in the traditional occult sorcery cultures in Mexico. (Remember that the two cultures have been mixing here for 500 years, twice as long as in the US).

2) However that being said there is a distinct difference in style between the world Castaneda paints, and the very distinct Mexicana culture. The people here share a heavy emphasis on religious ritual, be it catholic or Nahuatl, a strong participation in dates and special events on the calendar, the indigenous cultures as much or more special dates and customs than even the Latin or European culture. You don't run into any of this backdrop in Castaneda books even by accident in passing words.

Plus in Castaneda literature there is an almost total lack of even the most basic Nahuatl words which are even commonly used among the Spanish speaking population.

In regards to the difference in style, I have found that many agree that as a chaman and Nagual according to native traditions, one has the right, and almost an obligation, to choose his or her own style, and to bring new knowledge to light in their own way. The only real test is if he any good at conveying his knowledge. Sort of "the proof is in the pudding", and that's all that matters, so in that regard I see that aside from egoism those locals who know of Castaneda, grant him his space and respect, somewhere in the margins of Mexicanidad.

Those people around Carlos often did find incredible omens and coincidences happening, and that is one basic native test of authenticity of a chaman or "Person of Power" by native, or by CC's own standards. Note that Carlos had this aura of personal power his whole life, long before he ever met DJ. Carlos was already a chaman in his own right all along.

3) As far as other concepts that Castaneda introduced in his later books, like: The Assemblage Point; The Flyers; The emphasis and details of Recollection; and some of the Tensegrity; these are subjects; which I have not yet personally seen parallel or confirmation in this culture, although maybe they are there, and also these concepts were portrayed by Carlos as being a very occult knowledge even among isolated groups of persons, so it is possible that that is the explanation for that.

However in regards to my first-hand experience, I saw the Flyers and understood their role as a child in the '60s directly, one on one, tacitly, long before I ever read anything of that sort. The Assemblage point I saw and experienced directly in a singular profound experience in 1976, a decade before Castaneda mentioned such a thing. But that is second-hand information to you so it is unpalatable. And Recollection is a basic Rosicrucian technique that I have known and practiced before ever reading Castaneda.

It is possible that everything of energetic importance that Carlos wrote, is spot-on correct.

**************

Maybe, or maybe not, Carlos created his don Juan because he knew the public would never accept his knowledge second hand, so he needed a mythic figure in order to provide the knowledge as third hand information.

However sometimes reality is stranger than fiction, and there are certain people sitting on information that most likely even Castaneda's inner circles were not aware of that would provide a very interesting backdrop to this all.

Knowing the bigger picture I am more inclined to accept Carlos as a Nagual even if the knowledge came directly from him and not from don Juan.

The stories of Byron de Ford Solano in "Conversaciones Con Un Joven Nahual", stories mostly of the decade before Carlos wrote of don Juan, are a good starting point to seeing the broader picture of Castaneda.

The other knowledge I know of is still in the hands of "Traveler" in Chicago, who has traveled to Peru and done in-depth interviews with CC's family and friends there. Traveler has in his possession Carlos's hand written letters to his father. These letters span from when Carlos was serving in the Korean war and was strung up and tortured hideously by the North Koreans, on through his college years, and even to the point where he was first having meetings with don Juan. It seems that the only person Castaneda was ever completely open to was with his father.

Note that the handwriting on Carlos's letters to his father, match the images we have of Carlos's original hand-written field notes of his first encounters with don Juan, which have been posted on the web for some years now.

Also Traveler is in close contact with Carlos's son CJ, who claims to hold interesting stories and knowledge concerning his father, but also seems to be holding back to publish a book. He was about to post on TTZ a few months ago with his stories, but got cold feet.

However these people are getting very old and they may die before they ever get their works published. I may be impatient but these guys have been sitting on interesting stuff for years and not talking, and I can't say too much either, because they want to publish books in the future.

Given the general situation now, I doubt that their books would attract more than just a niche audience anyhow, but I understand their motives.

Also... Tlacaelel of Teotehuacan, is getting really really ancient. Supposedly he knew Carlos, DJ, and DG when they were all together in the 1960's. Supposedly his son-in-law is DJ's son. The one mentioned as having a military demeanor in CC's The Active Side of Infinity. I spent an afternoon with him where there were just 4 of us and he told me this and other stuff, plus he has told Traveler and others these things for decades. Now if he were to tell me where to find the living extensions of DJ's occult circle in Mexico, that might be interesting. He knows where Pablito and others in CC's original books are now and what they are doing.

Tlacaelel probably won't open up to anyone but a few trusted ones of his own Meshika inner circle. I am not the one and honestly I don't take to the guy. He is a little far from me in distance and in spirit for me personally to want to make the effort.

[link to www.artforthemasses.us]

well that's about it.

best wishes all!

There are other living witnesses too who knew Carlos's don Juan, just on occasion or in passing.

Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/02/2012 01:38 PM
ehecatl

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Re: Was Castaneda Right?


Tlakaelel is an 87-year-old Toltec elder who lives near Teotihuican, Mexico. Of all the indigenous elders, he is perhaps the most articulate with regard to his vision of human origins, quantum physics, extraterrestrial contacts and the future of humanity

In 1947, Tlakaelel was commissioned by the Council of Anahuak with a spiritual mission and was given the name and spiritual title of "Tlakaelel" which means "Counselor to the Council". In each generation there is only one man who carries this name. Tlakaelel is the first indigenous leader in the history of Mexico to have achieved with the aid of his Kalpulli, or spiritual group, official governmental recognition of the Native Religious Tradition. This has taken more than 500 years to accomplish.
[link to www.marythunder.com]
 Quoting: marythunder.com


and here is my personal quote from my meeting with Tlakaelel a few years ago-
...Tlakaelel praised Carlos for his profound and detailed insights into the “energetic” realms. He said basically that Castaneda’s primary teacher, called don Juan in the books, but the Juan just being a nickname for another name which I have been asked to keep private, taught Carlos the basic precepts of his teachings in the early years.

Later Castaneda went on various trips to Oaxaca and other places, independent from don Juan, knew the real don Genaro that he writes of in his books, and many of the other people, who Tlakaelel met at various times.

Tlakaelel seemed convinced that don Genaro of Oaxaca never met or knew don Juan, and that while Carlos really did meet with the people that he writes about, that in reality the people and events were too separate and disjointed to make for good reading, so Castaneda fabricated the relationships, and pasted together the stories from his real experiences.

Tlakaelel stated that in the early years don Juan was the teacher of Castaneda, but as Carlos gained more experience that Tlakaelel seemed to feel was valid, it was Carlos who was the teacher of don Juan.


Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/02/2012 06:29 PM
seeker2

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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
well that's about it.

best wishes all!

There are other living witnesses too who knew Carlos's don Juan, just on occasion or in passing.
 Quoting: ehecatl


Thank you for sharing your very interesting stories and insights. I read Castanada over 40 years ago and don't remember a lot. Perhaps I will take a trip down that road once again and refresh my memory.

I would add that no one I know sees energy with their eyes as they are not designed to receive that level of energy. But we do have other receptors that do. These images are displayed in a place that most would call our imagination. This is essentially the same why the eyes work. They receive energy and vision actually takes place in our mind. Put on a pair of glasses that turn things upside down and watch what happens after about 3 days. Your brain will flip the image right side up. Upon removing the glasses, images again will be upside down for about three days until the mind once again flips the image.

I am inclined to agree with you in regards to Carlos and your thoughts on 2nd and third hand information. Thanks once again for renewing my interest in his works. I will try to find them on line as I'm sure they are not available in Thailand.

Saw wa dee. sk
ehecatl

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well that's about it.
best wishes all!
There are other living witnesses too who knew Carlos's don Juan, just on occasion or in passing.
 Quoting: ehecatl


Thank you for sharing your very interesting stories and insights. I read Castanada over 40 years ago and don't remember a lot. Perhaps I will take a trip down that road once again and refresh my memory.

I would add that no one I know sees energy with their eyes as they are not designed to receive that level of energy. But we do have other receptors that do. These images are displayed in a place that most would call our imagination. This is essentially the same why the eyes work. They receive energy and vision actually takes place in our mind. Put on a pair of glasses that turn things upside down and watch what happens after about 3 days. Your brain will flip the image right side up. Upon removing the glasses, images again will be upside down for about three days until the mind once again flips the image.

I am inclined to agree with you in regards to Carlos and your thoughts on 2nd and third hand information. Thanks once again for renewing my interest in his works. I will try to find them on line as I'm sure they are not available in Thailand.

Saw wa dee. sk
 Quoting: seeker2

We're on the same wavelength.
It's called the pineal gland, it is biologically an eyeball, except that the photo receptor cells are also bio-luminescent, so it is a projector too.

I don't know if it relates, but for 30 years now I have pretty much only used solar distilled water from my hand built solar water distillers, and I avoid fluoride.

I'm still a fool a dunce and thoroughly insane though.

Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/02/2012 04:56 PM
ehecatl

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I will try to find them on line as I'm sure they are not available in Thailand.
 Quoting: seeker2


Find a way to send me an email or message and identify yourself in relation to these posts and I can probably then send you as a personal favor, files of CC's books. I know how difficult it is to get books in foreign countries.

I provided a link at the end of a previous post to the TTZ website, where I had posted a thread about Tlakaelel. There are a number of ways of contacting me personally once you are in that site.

Scratch that, just send me a GLP PM. I remember a few months ago it did not work because I was not a paid member, but now it works.

Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/02/2012 07:16 PM
Anonymous Coward
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If we are indeed infinite beings that have existed for literally eternity, why have we no memory of it? What reasonable purpose does that serve?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132


No memory of our previous mistakes and guilt, might have it's perks.

Likely Castenada might have called that predator that dominates 3D reality "Fear".
ehecatl

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When he stated that our memories have been replaced with a false identity by a predator that dominates our 3D reality?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17420132



Notes from Carlos Castaneda lecture Mexico City 1996,

“The flyers feed from the total consciousness.”

“Man is the only species that should have no limits. All of the other species have limits. All of our consciousness of being arrives only to the upper margin of the big toe. That is all!! All of our consciousness of being is eaten by the flyers. The only thing that remains for us is a little bit! The whole world with I, I, I.”

“Sorcerers explain that the flyers are like shadows, like leaping crickets.”

“The consciousness of being is like a tree. If it is not pruned it grows! The pruners are the flyers.

“The reasoning of the big toe! That is all that they leave us… If they were to eat us just a little more, we would die!”

One of the assistants says that she saw a flyer. CC says that what she has is talent, but he says, “Sorcerers do not like talent, they like discipline.”

“That they eat us is no joke, it is very serious!!”

“The flyers do not like discipline! For us with 3 days of not being eaten… that is sufficient for us to see!!!”

“The maneuvers of the flyers convert us from being engineers into believers. How is it possible that such an intelligent being can be so dense that way? Believing any divinity. Who gave us those beliefs? Sorcerers say the flyers!”

“The flyers gave us the mind. That mind is not ours!"

“The art of the sorcerer is to liberate himself from the mind.”

“We are at the mercy of those entities. They eat us like we eat chickens. They guard us and later they eat us.”

“DJ made me use my reason to arrive at an opinion negative of the flyers.”

“Without screams, without praise, the warrior battles impeccably.”

“The intellect forces us to conceptualize. The foreign installation is the mind, so think all the sorcerers of the lineage. Do things without thinking about them much. Frighten the mind!”
 Quoting: MexicoCity1996


Last Edited by ehecatl on 09/03/2012 04:25 AM
songwaves

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09/03/2012 02:29 PM
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[quote/]
"learning to be sane", lol, great sentiment, sounds like you are scratching closer to human realities.

In regards to Pieces of the Puzzle, it is part of a larger work of a series of interviews with Carlos Castaneda's inner circle in Mexico.

I was hired as a translator by a small team of academics in the US and Canada who have or had been conducting perhaps the most in-depth investigations into the real life of one of the reputed to be enigmatic famous persons, Salvador Carlos Cesar Araña Castañeda of Carajamarca Peru, born Dec. 25th 1925.

Juan Yolilitzly owns the publishing rights of Los Testigos del Nagual, or Witness of the Nagual in english, and as of several years ago had never translated the work to english, so I translated about 3/4's of it, it being composed of completely separate sections.

I started to share some of my translations of it on a Castaneda forum, at at that point Juan Y., let me know that he did not want me to publish more than short passages translated, to which I am entitled legally.

About a year later he provided me and the Chicago translator an E-book English version titled Witnesses. Although my translation is not perfect and still needs work, both me and the Chicago translator agreed that Juan's English version was too flawed to be published. Plus his eBook no longer works on my computer. It must have had an expiration date. The work seems to be out of print in Spanish too.

So now it is several years later and Juan still has not released an English version of Witnesses to the public it seems, although if you email him personally and make an appeal, maybe you can get him to send you the eBook that I know he has. Try emailing him at this address. He is sufficiently fluent in English to deal with on this matter.
juanyoliliztli@yahoo.com

Otherwise maybe I need to leak more of my translations. I am willing to release as much as I am legally allowed for my part.

There is a lot of really beautiful and important knowledge there, it is over a decade old now, and it is not fair of JY to withhold this so long IMO.

What I have is an approx 170 pages long Word doc. of the Spanish.
LOS TESTIGOS DEL NAGUAL
Witnesses of the Nagual

ENTREVISTAS A LOS DISCÍPULOS DE CARLOS CASTANEDA
Interviews with the disciples of Carlos Castaneda

Índice
Index

Nota del Editor
Notes from the Editor

Prólogo, por Armando Torres
Prologue by Armando Torres

Introducción: El legado final de Carlos Castaneda, por Carlos Ortiz de la Huerta
Introduction: The final legacy of Carlos Castaneda, by Carlos Ortiz de la Huerta

Sólo cuando uno enfrenta la muerte total, alcanza la libertad total. Entrevista a Hidalgo de Bacatetes.
Only when one totally confronts death, one achieves total liberty. Interview with Hidalgo de Bacatetes.

Relatos de poder, por Arturo Gutiérrez
Tales of Power, by Arturo Gutierrez

Mi camino a la impecabilidad, por Edgar Delgado
My road to impeccability, by Edgar Delgado

Tú puedes elegir ser quien quieres ser. Entrevista a Martha Venegas.
You Can Choose To Be Who You Want To Be. Interview with Martha Venegas.

Las piezas del rompecabezas. Entrevista a Mariví de Teresa.
The Pieces of the Puzzle. Interview with Marivi de Teresa.

Las historias no importan; lo que importa es el espíritu Entrevista a la chamana Soledad Ruiz.
Stories don't Matter; What Matters is the Spirit.
Interview with sorceress Doña Soledad Ruiz


Lo que pase ahora, depende de cada uno de nosotros. Entrevista a Francisco Plata.
What happens now, depends on each one of us.
Interview with Francisco Plata.


El pájaro de la libertad, por Jacobo Grinberg
The Bird of Freedom, by Jacobo Grinberg

Señales. Por Eddy Martinelli.
Omens, by Eddy Martinelli (Juan Yolilitzly)


Thanks for the references most appreciated, I'll look forward to discovering some of them and also what you choose to share on this thread...as your inclined to share...as I'm sure...it will be whats needed.

I'm sure the book will come my way when I'm ready :)

much love,song

Last Edited by songwaves on 09/03/2012 02:31 PM
“I’m sleeping, but my heart is keeping watch”. The Song of Songs.
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09/04/2012 09:51 AM

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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
thank you ehecatl, this was an interesting read.

Anyway, i have a question. Maybe some of you may have an another answer.

Do you think it is possible to really learn something regarding the deeper mysteries and secrets of this current existence we experience - or life - through reading a book?

Why do we speak, write or read at all? It's all about information, isn't it? But for what is this information good?

IN-FORMATION

again .. ..

IN-FORMATION

From where does Information come from? Information can only come from the Known. The Known tells us that something is not IN-ORDER. The 'normal' behaviour of a human being, when confronted with something which is not IN-ORDER (or confronted with a Paradox) would be or is to search for answers to create Harmony which means you would search for new IN-FORMATION.

Have any of you been catapulted into the Unknown? Have any of you lost your FORM?

Castaneda and his books cannot be understood when not having experienced the Unknown in the first place. Nothing can be learned from Castanedas books although they are highly entertaining from the view of an purposed Un-experienced-one. They don't serve nothing, not even for some a kind of verification purpose.

The same is true for countless other spiritual books, or techniques, Yoga for example. In the case of Yoga, one learns different body postures to awaken different energy-pools/chakras. You never hear from so called Yoga-Gurus that 'awakening' comes first (without any reference to chakras at all!) where only after 'awakening' come the postures and then those postures come involuntarily.

What is happening here?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20295459


I would say that we tell ourselves that something is not 'in-order' based on what we have already accepted as known. We defend what we have already accepted by discarding information or experience that contradicts what we accept and defend. The unknown and the unknowable is always around us...beckoning us. We just don't have the free energy to grasp it. But there are moments when even the most ordinary man/woman does...thus they are forced to make a decision...discard or re-organize the inventory of the mind.

Thus, we all experience the unknown in the first place. Everything we can learn is presented there. And the books most certainly DO serve a verification purpose. That's EXACTLY why they were written and if you were to read them you would understand that they plainly lay out a system whereby one can verify their truth by following the techniques presented.

Erasing personal history involves three techniques that are precisely described in the books: losing self-importance, taking responsibility for one's acts, and using death as an adviser. Numerous examples are given...complete with deeper metaphors incorporated in the tales of power detailed and described in the books.

Obviously you didn't get any of that out of it...but yet you challenge everyone on this forum by asking us if we have 'been capitulated into the unknown' and if we have lost our form.

This is the one statement that you made that is worthwhile. On almost every discussion I have seen involving Castaneda there is little discussion about detailed personal experiences that readers have faced and a lot of Tonal about this and that and what this 'expert' says and that one says and discussions about the finer points of it all.

But what have you seen? What have you experienced that challenged your reason? When was the last time your intent was unleashed? And what have you learned from this...can we apply our personal experiences back into Castaneda's works and go further?

These are the questions that are worth asking. These are the questions that will push us further down the path less traveled.

Last Edited by Jonny Blaze on 09/04/2012 09:53 AM
The engravings translate to "This space intentionally left blank."

The prayer is inscribed in an ancient script, rarely used today. It seems to be a philippic against small insects, absent-mindedness, and the picking up and dropping of small objects.

The gate is open; through it you can see a desolation, with a pile of mangled bodies in one corner. Thousands of voices, lamenting some hideous fate, can be heard.
The way through the gate is barred by evil spirits, who jeer at your attempts to pass.
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Re: Was Castaneda Right?
As for the question of why we aren't allowed to retain our memories from birth (after all, we're born at a distinct disadvantage with our very weak infant bodies depending on our parents for our very survival, which further subjects us to the potential for injury through various traumas) -- I'm not absolutely sure of the reason.......
 Quoting: shenandoah 2636202

For what it's worth I was a person born with significant fragments of "past life memories" of about a half a dozen past lives, and also significant memory fragments of the realities "between lives".

These are not only for sure my "earliest memories", but my mother and grandmother confirmed me speaking of these things when I first learned to talk. Lot's of technical things that no baby can possibly know about.

But even that does not prove ownership by me to a discrete chain of incarnations (which would satisfy the ego and death-worry immensely), but rather perhaps a close interconnectedness with previous incarnations.
 Quoting: ehecatl


That is a fascinating phenomenon which you describe. Could it be that you were simply a very psychic child, who was able to 'see' other lives besides your own?

I say that, because of my own psychic experiences (which are different and varied, of course). In my own early childhood, my parents were quite impressed with my "photographic memory" (their words).

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