okay i bought some unrefined EVCO from my health food store. I also ordered the Thieves toothpaste recommended here. On hand I had IPSAB tooth powder which I have been using for years(baking soda, salt and prickly ash bark and peppermint) mixed the EVCO with the IPSAB, made a nice paste brushed first with that, then followed with the Theives, finished with OraMD. Wow is all I can say. Thanks GLP.