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All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away

 
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All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD.

Bible Reading: I Corinthians 13:8-13.

Aim: To show that tongues ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

To show that prophecy and knowledge gifts ceased in 96 AD with the completion of the New Testament.

Introduction: If these three gifts ceased in the first century, then the modern tongues movement is not of God and should be rejected as unbiblical. The following exegesis of I Corinthians 13:8-13, is intended as a springboard to understand how the entire Bible teaching on this subject fits together to show that the purpose of tongues was a warning to Israel, and hence, ceased by 70 AD. It will be shown that prophecy and knowledge gifts were God's temporary means of revelation to the early Church until the completed New Testament had been given. Today, God speaks through His Word, not through some person giving what he calls is a prophecy from God.

I Corinthians 13:8-13.

13:8. "Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (Greek: Katargethesontai); whether there be tongues, they shall cease (Greek: pausontai), whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" (Greek: Katargethesetai).


Note first that "Charity never faileth". This means that love will continue on forever. It is the only one of the 6 phenomena discussed here that continues forever. This means that faith, hope, prophecy, tongues and knowledge all stop, but when?

I Corinthians 13:13 tells us "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".

We learn here that faith, hope and charity continue all through the church age. This means that prophecy, tongues and knowledge are not said to continue all through the Church age, but cease sometime before the second coming (rapture) of Christ.


Question 1: When does faith stop?

Answer: When Christ returns at the rapture to catch the church up to heaven.

II Corinthians 5:7. "For we walk by faith, not by sight". When we get to heaven we will see what we had faith in, so that faith will give way to sight.
I Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end5056 (Greek: telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls".This tells us that faith will end when we get to heaven, thus enjoying salvation or deliverance from the presence of sin. "Telos" means "end, result, termination, ultimate fate, completion in respect to time, or fulfilment".

Hence faith for us ends at the second coming of Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher5047(teleiotes) of our faith."

Jesus Christ finishes our faith when He returns for us at His second coming, and we "reach our goal" ("teleiotes" in Greek) of heaven.


Question 2: When does HOPE stop?

Answer: When we get what we are hoping for in heaven. For example, if you are married, you are not hoping to get married because you then possess what you hoped for. Believers are hoping for Christ's second coming (Titus 2:13), and the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6). When we have what we hope for, then hope finishes. "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Titus 2:13.

"..of the hope and resurrection of the dead am I called in question". Acts 23:6 and Acts 26:6.

"....hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:24.

Hope will only remain until we see Christ and receive our resurrection bodies at His second coming. Hence hope is valid only until the second coming.

Hence faith will be lost in sight; hope will be lost in reality; and love continues for all eternity.

I Corinthians 13:13. "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity". Because only faith, hope and charity are abiding throughout the church age, these three alone, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge must cease sometime INSIDE the church age. The time these (and the other temporary gifts) ceased had to have been before the completion of the New Testament.

Question 3: When do prophecy, and knowledge gifts cease?

Answer: "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail2673 (Greek: Katargethesontai);......whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away2673 (Greek Katargethesetai)."

Meaning: "Katargeo" means to render inoperative, to make inactive, to be done away, to supercede, put an end to. With Paul it always denotes a complete cessation, not a temporary or partial ceasing.

Every occurrence of "Katargeo" in 13:8,10 is in the passive voice, indicating that something shall make prophecy and knowledge inactive.

Question 4: What are prophecy and knowledge?

1. The gift of prohecy in the apostolic church was speaking new revelation from God, to instruct and edify. Prophecy has a secondary meaning of forthtelling God's Word to teach and comfort the Church.

This is Bible teaching of today. Teaching replaced first century prophecy. A person knew, then prophesied. They were twin gifts.

2. The gift of knowledge in the apostolic Church was the ability to understand and know the mind and will of God. It was revealed truth, not learned. It is seeing as the Holy spirit sees. It was used to teach believers certain doctrines which had not as yet been written as part of the New Testament.

For example, Peter knew who Jesus really was. Matthew 16:17.

Agabus knew and then prophesied about Paul being bound at Jerusalem. Acts 21:10-12.

Paul knew the demonised damsel's mesage to be false. Acts 16:18

Such knowledge, like prophecy, was as authoritative as the scriptures in the early church.

Each of these gifts can refer to either:

a) an action - the exercising of the gifts in the church where he prophesies or gives a word of knowledge.

b) content - in Matthew 13:14,15 Christ quotes what Isaiah said 750 years earlier, which was now part of Scripture. When prophecy or knowledge became codified as scripture, they stood alone, no longer as the "act" of prophecy and knowledge, but as the "content" of prophecy and knowledge, now become written scripture.

3. The gift of tongues or unlearned languages, was similar yet inferior to prophecy and knowledge in that the tongues speaker needed to be translated.

Paul said in I Corinthian 14:18,19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".

Speaking in a tongue and having it translated only allows the speaker to say half as much in a given time, as could a prophet or word of knowledge in the common tongue. Tongues were cumbersome verbage. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge form the subject of 1 Corinthian 13:8-13. Something is going to happen to each of them. None of them are to abide during the Church age, as will faith, hope and love. They are transient gifts.

13:8. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease 3973" (Greek: pausontai).

Here "pausontai is used in an absolute sense, to cease, to come to an end".

["The Complete N.T. Word Study Dictionary", S. Zhodiates, p.1132.]

"Pausontai" is in the middle voice, indicative mood, meaning that the action of ceasing will come from within, rather than from outside.

"Cease" means that tongues would fulfil their function (of warning jewish people of coming Judgment), and render themselves obsolete, unneeded, ended. Literally it means "tongues shall make themselves to cease, or automatically cease of themselves." [A.T. Robertson Vol.IV, p.179.]

13.9. "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part". Since v.9 omits tongues, it would appear that tongues would cease before the removal of prophecy and knowledge. "In part" defines quantity, and the word "perfect" meaning "complete" is the opposite to "in part".

Knowledge of doctrine in the pre-canon period of the Church Age was fragmentary. The 14 mystery doctrines of this dispensation had not yet been completely given in New Testament Scripture. They could only teach from the Old Testament and by direct revelation from God via prophecy and knowledge. They knew in part, and consequently, they prophesied in part.

13:10. "But when that which is perfect (Greek: "teleion" meaning complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (Greek: "Katargetheseta" meaning to render inoperative). Prophecy and knowledge, both being ""in part"", will be done away with when the perfect shall come.

Question 5: When does the perfect come?

a) If it is the second coming of Christ, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge are allowable today.

b) If it is the completed New Testament Scriptures of 96 AD then prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all ceased in the first entury and are not for today.

Question 6: To answer question 5, we must ask another question: What is "that which is perfect?"

Answer: Several opinions are: 1. Jesus Christ at His second coming. 2. the perfected state of the believer at Christ''s return. 3. After the millenium in the new heaven and new earth. 4. the completed New Testament Scriptures.Consider these reasons why the perfect refers to the completed New Testament scriptures:

1. "When that (Greek: To Teleion) which is perfect is come"

The pronoun "THAT" in Greek, describing the perfect, is neuter.

Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.

2. "Perfect" in Greek means "complete, finished". The N.T. by 96 AD was completed and finished as God's revelation for this Church age. The completed N.T. canon of Scripture would serve the same purpose that prophecy, tongues, knowledge, apostleship, healing, miracles and other temporary spiritual gifts had once performed. Christ is never called the complete or finished one.

3. "Perfect" cannot mean Christ's return, becaue Christ's second coming is foreign to the context of I Corinthians 12,13,14 being mentioned nowhere in these 3 chapters. The subject of I Corinthians 12, 13,14 is spiritual gifts to the church in the church age. To extend prophecy, tongues and knowledge into the millenium or after the millenium is to miss the focus and context of the passage.

4. James 1:25 describes the perfect as the Bible, the perfect law of liberty.

The meaning of "perfect" in scripture can be determined by it's use in other passages of scripture. "Teleion", the "perfect" or "completed" was already in the New Testament when Paul wrote. James had alrady referred to the Word of God as the "perfect law of liberty in" James 1:25.

"But be ye doors of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves."

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:22, 25.

"Perfect" in James 1:25 in Greek is "teleion" the same as "perfect" in 1 Corinthian 13:10. In James 1:25 "perfect" clearly refers to the soon to be completed Bible, and this must be the same meaning in I Corinthians 13:10.

In James 1:22-25 the perfect law of liberty is the Bible.

Therefore, in I Corinthians 13:10 the perfect is the Bible.

5. James 1:23 and 1 Corinthinas 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in.

"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass." James 1:23.

"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then (when the perfect, completed Bible has come) face to face" 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As we look into a mirror to see our true physical condition of our face, so we look into the Bible as a mirror to see our true spiritual condition.

Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance.

Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance.

Therefore, GLASS MIRROR = PERFECT = the WORD OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does.

6. II Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us.

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord".

The mirror/glass is a symbol of the Word of God. (James 1:22,25).

As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

We can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ("He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son....". Romans 8:29) and go from glory to glory, by the Holy Spirit changing us as we saturate ourselves in the Word of God.

"are changed (Greek: metamorphoumetha) into the same image from glory to glory". The Greek word "changed" gives us the word "metamorphosis" which describes the process of an insect changing from an ugly worm into a mature beautiful butterfly. The changes come from within. So it is when we meditate on God's Word and in it see Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit transforms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

In the Bible we see the glory of Christ and are changed into His image.

13:12. In I Corinthians 13:12, only a few New Testament books were completed. The glory of the Lord revealed in the word was not complete. First century believers could neither see Christ, nor themselves, in the full light of God's revelation. They could only see darkly or dimly. However with the completion of Scripture, not only would the glory of Christ be revealed in greater fullness, but so would the believer's own reflection become clearer. Why? Because the believer after 96 AD has more Scripture to transform him into Christ's image.

The "perfect" is the opposite of that which is "in part."

Paul viewed his own writings as Scripture (1 Thessalonians 2:13) He knew that new revelation was being given and that one day it would cease. In the same way that God had completed the Old Testament, God would also complete the New Testament. Paul's use of the phrases "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (13:9) show that he is dealing with a partially completed Bible that was being added to by the Apostle's revelations from God.

1. The Second Coming is never called "perfect" in the New Testament, but the Bible is called the perfect law of liberty in James 1:25.

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul......."

2. The completed New Testament fulfilled the same job as did the temporary gifts of prophecy and knowledge. Once prophecy and knowledge were codified (written down) as the New Testament, then prophecy and knowledge ceased. ie. New revelation of prophecy and knowledge ceased when the full N.T. revelation for this age was completed.

3. Christ's second coming is neither complete nor morally perfect. In the millenium, the sinner will die 100 years old (Isaiah 65:20). The millenium ends with satan's release from the pit and nations rebelling to attack Christ at Jerusalem. Not a perfect or complete situation at all.

4. Faith and Hope finish at the second coming (13:13).

Therefore, prophecy, knowledge and tongues, each not abiding during the church age, are said to end well before faith and hope ends (compare 1 Corinthians

13:8 with 1 Corinithians13:13).

Prophecy, knowledge and tongues end well before the second coming.

Prophecy and knowledge end by the coming of the perfect, completed Word of God in 96 AD.

Tongues ended by 70 AD, with Titus destroying Jerusalem and the judgment predicted coming on the jewish people for rejecting Christ's gospel. You don't warn people after the punishment has fallen.

5. The completed Bible is able to make believers complete by giving us all things that pertain to life and godliness. (II Peter 1:3,4).

We don't need new revelation.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory (in heaven) and virtue (now on earth).

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises (in the perfect Bible) that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (changed from glory to glory)." II Peter 1:3,4.

This is obtained through:

1) the knowledge of Christ found in the Bible, and

2) by claiming the exceeding great and precious promises in the Bible.

Everything that we need today for life and Godliness to make us mature, completely equipped Christians is found in the Bible. Hence, the Bible is appropriately called the "complete Completer" for us today, the exact meaning of "teleion" in I Corinthians 13:10.

6. The completed Bible (all Scripture) can make the man of God "perfect" (Greek: "artios739" meaning "complete, sufficient, completely qualified; a synonym of "teleion"), throughly furnished unto all good works". II Timothy 3:16,17.

Here again, "all Scripture" making the man of God perfect, supports "perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 as meaning the Bible, and not the second coming of Christ. Therefore, when the perfected, completed Bible comes, then the "in part" prophecy and knowledge shall be done away. This happened in 96AD when John finished writing Revelation 22:21.

Question 7: Why is tongues not mentioned in I Corinthians 13:9,10 as being done away with by the perfect?


Answer: It is because tongues had already ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, being the judgment on the jewish people that tongues pointed to (I Corinthians 14:21,22). After 70 AD, there was no more purpose for tongues, so the tongues gift ceased forever by 70 AD. Tongues were not in existence to be done away with by "the perfect." Tongues had ceased 26 years earlier.

Those who think that the "perfect" is Christ's return and reject it as meaning the completed New Testament Scripture, do so because:

1. They have not studied every word, phrase, or verse of I Corinthians 13 in its context or

2. They are mentally influenced by someone with leaning towards Pentecostalism or

3. They are influenced by some interdenominational teacher whose decision about this scripture is non-committal so as to retain his popularity with both charismatic and non charismatic groups.

4. No scripture is ever produced in proof that the Holy Spirit did not mean the complete New Testament.

If knowledge ended at Christ's return, and if knowledge meant normal knowledge, then all Christians would be imbeciles in heaven.

Note: It is not good to say that God spoke to you and told you to do something, because if you are wrong, you lose your credibility. Instead, say "I felt led or burdened by the Lord to.....".

13:11. "When I was a child, I spake as a child (tongues)

I understand as a child (Knowledge, I thought as a child (prophecy is verbalised thoughts): but when I became a man, I put away childish things".

...continued...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/04/2012 05:17 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Question 8: What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge?

Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached.

So Paul uses 2 illustrations to show the passing of prophecy, tongues and knowledge, and the permanence of the completed Bible, faith, hope and charity for the church age:

a) A person growing from childhood to adulthood and putting away the childish temporary things of prophecy, tongues and knowlege in I Cor. 13:11.

Paul is here saying to the Corinthian believers "put away the childish things of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, because manhood will soon be reached."

In the first century, a boy was recognised as a mature man when he got married, left his parents home and established his own home.

In the first century, Judaism was regarded as the parent religion, where Christianity (the child) resided. The early Christians enjoyed the protection of Judaism as an officially recognised religion. Christianity seemed like another Jewish sect.

Sulpicius Severus in discussing Titus' destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, states that:

"Titus formed the deliberate purpose to destroy Christianity and Judaism in one blow, believing that if the Jewish root were torn up the Christian branch would soon perish". [F. Farrar "The Early Days of Christianity" p.326.]

Judaism was the parent/home religion and Christianity was the child religion. But with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the church moved out of its childhood home. It became a separate, independent, distinct religion, able to grow without the Jewish temple and without the protective umbrella of the Jewish religious sytem. Christianity had left the Jewish parents home and had reached manhood. It had left childhood behind.

This was another reason for putting away the childish things of tongues.

In Revelation 22:18,19 God finished prophecy and knowledge revelations by giving us the completed Bible with a warning against new prophecies. There would be no more partial revelations given by prophecies or knowledge. They had forever been superceded by a completed Bible.

Tongues ceased in 70 AD., prophecy and knowledge ceased in 96 AD.


lots more at this site:
[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Question 11: Why would God allow dedicated Christians to continue in error and deception to their hurt or spiritual detriment?

Answer: I Kings 13 reveals that even a dedicated and fearless prophet of God must suffer the consequences when he chooses deception over the clear revelation of God.

An unnamed man of God (v.1) was sent to Bethel "by the Word of the Lord" to prophesy against King Jeroboam and his idolatry (v.1-3). When the King tried to arrest the prophet, the King's hand withered (v.4,5). He begged the man of God to intercede to God to restore his hand. (v.6). The man of God showed mercy, prayed to God and Jeroboam's hand was restored. Then King Jeroboam offered him a reward (v.7) but the man of God refused (v3-10).

Why? He refused to stop for food because the clear revelation of God forbad him from receiving food or drink or retracing his steps (v.9). So far he had walked in complete obedience to the Word of God. He had passed the tests of:

1. Fear because he had boldly carried out his job of proclaiming God's Word to the King.

2. Compassion/Mercy. He had not allowed the King's threats to dry up his mercy. He willingly, lovingly prayed for Jeroboam's hand to be restored without revenge.

3. The test of faithfulness to God over human favour had been overcome, because he turned down the King's offer of hospitality and reward .

4. The test of deception, was the final test which he sadly failed.

Why? God had clearly told him not to receive hospitality, but he rejected the clear revelation of the Word of God for a new revelation, and it cost him his life.

There was an old prophet living nearby who heard about his faithful stand. The old prophet had lived in compromise at Bethel and invited the man of God home to dine with him (v.11-15).

The man of God refused saying that he was under strict orders from God not to eat, drink or retrace his steps (v.16.17). The old prophet replied in v.18

"I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the Lord, saying, bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him."

Why did he lie" We are not told.

a) Maybe he was envious at seeing a true prophet faithfully discharge his duties, when he had lived in compromise.

b) Maybe he resented the man of God and had a convicted conscience.

The old prophet claimed a new revelation from God. The man of God had to decide:

a) Would he accept at face value the new revelation, or

b) Would he continue to cling to God's previous revelation?

Sadly, the once fearless and faithful prophet succumbed to deception. And God allowed this to happen to a dedicated man of God. Why? Because in our pilgrimage on earth, there will always be the choice to follow the clear teaching of God's Word, or to replace it with the shallow promises, prophecies and deceptions of man.

The man of God retraced his steps back to the home of the old prophet and ate with him (v.19). Over the meal, the old prophet revealed that because the man of God had disobeyed the Word of God, he would die (v.20-22).

And that is exactly what happened (V.23-26) because a lion slew him in the way.

From this we see that if God allowed a dedicated prophet of God to choose between the clear teaching of the Lord and deception, surely the Lord will let us have this choice today. Many Christians suffer poor spiritual lives because they give up the Word of God, and embrace teachers who prophesy or give new revelations of their own spirit.

Question 12: But why doesn't God step in and chasten His children to woo them back to obedience? (Hebrews 12).

Answer: The Holy Spirit and the Word of God continually call the believer to faithfulness and obedience (Phil.2:12,13). Deception and impoverishment are the bitter fruits of turning away from the Word of God. Sometimes God will allow His children to remain deceived as a chastisement until they turn again in submission to the Word of God. Their salvation in Christ is secure through Christ's blood sacrifice. They may serve the Lord faithfully in other areas and even be used successfully by God, but they will miss god's best blessings on earth and they will lose rewards in heaven.

God will allow believers to choose whether to glorify Christ through submission and obeying scripture or to rebel. For dedicated servants of God who put aside the clear revelation of God and embrace new revelations, in this life they will be deceived and impoverished, and in the next life they will suffer loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ (II Corinthians 5-10).

Examples of charismatic deception are tongues, false healings, new revelations, words of knowledge spoken about other people, slaying in the "spirit", "Toronto" experience, etc. Consider briefly these two examples:

Slaying People in the Spirit is a Charismatic invention whereby hands are laid on a person's head and they lose consciousness, causing them to fall backwards onto the floor. THIS IS NOT IN THE BIBLE, so forget it. Laying hands on people is well known in the occult as a means of transferring demons. It is more likely demonically influenced and all the more reason why we should avoid this movement.

Surrender of Mind and Emotions to Group Pressure. On entering a Charismatic meeting, we meet many people dancing, throwing arms in the air, speaking in tongues, on an emotional high and appearing very happy. The average Christian realises that he is not always like this, nor is the church from which he has come (which is made to appear dead and lifeless in comparison). He and his church are made to feel inferior and below what God expects. He has always had thoughts that his Christian life hasn't always been as good as it ought to have been. He immediately concludes that these people have a one-shot-sure-fire-answer to spirituality when they ask him if he has been baptised in the Holy Spirit or spoken in tongues. If he is not careful, he will assume that these people are right, without studying the Bible or without praying the issue through. He may then agree to speak in tongues, which makes the Charismatics very happy. He feels much love, acceptance and unity as a result, all because of an experience that he has had. He then begins his Christian life by making his experience the authority on which he determines spiritual truth, and not the Bible. He then defends his decision logically by saying what wonderful love and unity these people have and "power" (false albeit). He asks, "how can they be wrong when they show such qualities?"
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Question 16: If the sign and revelatory gifts today are not from God, why are Charismatic churches the fastest growing churches in the world?

Answer:

1. Much Charismatic growth is by attracting Christians from other churches. Because many Charismatic churches place little emphasis on sound doctrine, this breeds an atmosphere of acceptance, which assists numerical growth.

If you never rebuke sin, have worldly attractions, and give people everything they want, you'll see growth, but you won't please God.

Charismaticism weakens churches that are committed to the fundamentals of the faith, while it energises ecumenical liberal, worldly churches.

2. Numerical growth does not equal God's stamp of approval. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and cults can boast amazing growth statistics, yet their beliefs are very unbiblical. What about growth of Charismatic churches that hold to the fundamentals of the faith? Jesus' parables of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43), mustard seed (13:31,32), and the leaven (13:33) all predict outward growth in Christendom, but this growth would be accompanied, by growth in evil influencees (leaven, birds) from within. Therefore, numerical growth does not mean that God approves all a churche's doctrines. Numerical growth, even by true conversions can occur amidst false doctrine. eg. The Corinthian church grew rapidly, even though it was full of false doctrine and wrong behavour.

Many churches claim to be evangelical, but challenge them on:

1) The 100% inerrancy of Scripture.

2) The historical, literal accuracy of Genesis 1-11.

3) The factual nature of Jonah being swallowed by a fish.

4) The scientific accuracy of a literal creation week, and they show themselves to disbelieve the Bible.

Christ prayed that the Father would sanctify believers through His Word (John 17:17), before he prayed that believers would be one (John 17:21)

If we loudly profess to believe every Bible truth, except where the world and devil are at the moment attacking, we are denying Christ and proving disloyal. Today's battle against the Bible takes the form of an invasion of new revelations. This is why Rome can happily endorse the Charismatic movement because Rome also has her new revelations that are contrary to the Bible. We must be sound in belief, sound in a Godly life, and sound in serving Christ.

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
REASONS THAT TONGUES CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

1. Tongues were a sign of judgment against Jewish unbelief as a nation.

2. There are 3 major outbreaks of miracles in Scripture

3. Tongues belonged to the infant days of the church.

4. Tongues authenticated the apostles' message as from God.

5. Hebrews 6:5 shows that the only other age of miracles will be the Millenium described as "the powers of the age to come".

6. Hebrews 2:3,4 shows miracles (such as tongues) to be in the past tense, and not continuosly being experienced by the Hebrew Christians of 64 AD.

7. This is also seen in Acts 11:15, where Peter describes tongues at Cornelius household, not as a regular occurrence weekly in every church, but only somethiing that happened last time at Pentecost (Acts 2) "as on us at the beginning".

8. Mark 16:11-20 (especially v.17) shows that the signs that were to follow them that believe related to a brief period, not longer than that covered by the book of Acts, and described in that way in v.19,20.

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
19. PRAYING IN TONGUES is WRONG because UNDERSTANDING is ABSENT.

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the UNDERSTANDING ALSO" I Corinthians 14:14,15.

Paul is saying here that if you pray in tongues, your spirit might be trying to express something, but your MIND (or understanding) has no idea what is being said. This is wrong, Paul says. For prayer to be genuine, we must pray with our spirit and with our understanding.

Praying in tongues fails the test of understanding. The mind and voice are disconnected. Many Charismatics will try to justify praying in tongues by quoting Romans 8:26.

"...the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which CANNOT BE UTTERED".

This verse is not talking about praying in tongues becaue tongues are uttered vocal sounds. The Holy Spirit speaks our thoughts to the Father with groanings which cannot be uttered by us, yet prayer tongues are uttered by people.

20. The Process of Elimination shows tongues to be not for believers of today.


Tongues primary purpose was to warn unbelieving jewish people to repent, or God would judge them. They refused to repent, so God judged them in 70 AD, thus making tongues as a warning to the jewish people no longer necessary.

"Tongues are a sign, NOT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT..." I Corinthians 14;22.

Tongues are a sign for one of three types of people. Which one?

a) NOT FOR BELIEVERS. 14:22. This means that tongues have no purpose for believers. For Christians to speak in tongues is not valid.

b) NOT FOR GENTILE UNBELIVERS. 14:23. Those unlearned in the Old Testament meaning of tongues, or unbelievers, "will they not say that ye are mad?" This describes unsaved Gentiles. Tongues are not for this group because the history of Assyrian and Babylonian tongues as a warning of a judgment to Israel meant nothing to them.

c) JEWISH UNBELIEVERS. 14:21. "In the law (Isaiah 28:11, Jeremiah 5:15 and Deuteronomy 28:49) it is written, with men of other tongues (Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman) and other lips will I speak unto this people (jewish people); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord".

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
Anonymous Coward
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09/04/2012 05:22 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Salt has many times here mentioned she uses meditation to hear God. hf In fact its the only way your God fragment in your mind IS heard. Its all obtained by "going within". And Salt it doesn't need all this other stuff you posted.

That is the most important teaching Jesus DEMONSTRATED when he went to quietly commune with his Father, which is also YOUR FATHER, Folks. He did not start this jackass religion that has become a tool of the thugs to rule over you and keep you ignorant of God.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/04/2012 05:23 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
QUESTIONS TO ASK CHARISMATICS THAT PROVE TONGUES TO BE UNBIBLICAL.

Q1. Did you speak in tongues because someone asked you to, or did tongues come to you without you seeking it, and without anyone suggesting you to do it, as in the New Testament?

Q2. When you were asked to speak in tongues, did you say "No, wait until I have thoroughly and completely studied and understood every verse on the subject?"

Q3. Do you use your tongue as a warning to jewish people to repent?

Q4. Do you always have your tongue correctly interpreted?

"Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret". I Corinthians 14:13

Q5. Do you speak in tongues to edify yourself or to edify the church?

"Seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church" I Corinthians 14:12.

Q6. Do women speak in tongues aloud in your church?

"Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak.....for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Cor 14:34,35.

Q7. Do two or at the most three speak in "tongues" at your meetings? I Cor 14:27.

Q8. Do your "tongues" speakers speak in turn after being interpreted, or do they all speak at the same time?

Q9. Which spirit gave you your tongue?

If you think it is the Holy Spirit, can you prove it? How?

Q10. Did you receive your tongue when someone told you to relax, be passive, blank out your mind, and let anything come out? or

Q11. Were you strongly refusing anything which satan might send you? Did you constantly pray for God to keep you from everything not of Him when people challenged you to speak in tongues?

Q12. Does your tongue ever get out of control, or does it take over your prayer time?

Q13. What do you learn more about God through your tongue?

Q14. Do people in your church suppress their tongues if there is no genuine interpreter present?

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church..." I Corinthians 14:28

Q15. Can you find one Biblical example of a woman speaking in tongues?

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Salt has many times here mentioned she uses meditation to hear God. hf In fact its the only way your God fragment in your mind IS heard. Its all obtained by "going within". And Salt it doesn't need all this other stuff you posted.

That is the most important teaching Jesus DEMONSTRATED when he went to quietly commune with his Father, which is also YOUR FATHER, Folks. He did not start this jackass religion that has become a tool of the thugs to rule over you and keep you ignorant of God.
 Quoting: Margaret Smith


i use prayer to hear from God. if you want to call it prayer and meditation that's fine.

but, it is not the new age concept of meditation.
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Tape Recorder Test Disproves Interpretation of Tongues.

If no one passes the Interpretation test, then neither does anyone possess the genuine gift of tongues.

This scientific test will disprove anyone's claim to have the gift of "Interpretation of tongues".

Assemble, one person who claims to have the gift of tongues, and another two people who claim to have the gift of interpreting tongues, keeping both groups separate.

Let the first person speak in tongues, while you tape record him speaking.

Then bring the first interpreter into the room to hear the taped tongue replayed.

Tape record his interpretation of the tongue.

Then bring the second interpreter into the room to hear the same tongue replayed.

Tape record his interpretation of the same tongue. You will find that the second interpretation will disagree with the first person's interpretation.

Why is this? It is becaue no one today has the first century supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues, this gift having passed away by 70 AD.

It follows therefore, that if the interpretation gift is found to be NON-GENUINE, then the tongues gift is also NON-GENUINE.

Notice please that when someone speaks gibberish, claiming that he is speaking in an unknown tongue, he is , by deception, taking advantage of the fact that the hearer does not know every language in the Universe. The hearer, who is caught off guard, finds it hard to state that this gibberish is not a language.

So let us turn the tables and ask if his two interpreter friends can interpret any tongue consistently.

Note: A variation on this test is to get up in a Charismatic meeting, speak something in a foreign language that you know the meaning of, and then ask for it to be correctly interpreted, e.g. quote the Lords prayer in Latvian. You will find that the interpretation given, will be nothing like the true meaning of what you said. You may then expose them publicly as deceivers and as being deceived.
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09/04/2012 05:42 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
bump for truth and liberty
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
bump for truth and liberty
 Quoting: Salt
Life and Love

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
bump for truth and liberty
 Quoting: Salt

 Quoting: Salt


Bump again for the real reason Paul wrote 1 Cor 13: contrasting what will last into eternity (faith, hope, and love) with what won't.

Last Edited by Life and Love on 09/04/2012 08:23 PM
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
bump for truth and liberty
 Quoting: Salt

 Quoting: Salt


Bump again for the real reason Paul wrote 1 Cor 13: contrasting what will last into eternity (faith, hope, and love) with what won't.
 Quoting: Life and Love


thanks, L&L, i think we are the only ones here that care....
Life and Love

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09/04/2012 08:58 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
bump for truth and liberty
 Quoting: Salt

 Quoting: Salt


Bump again for the real reason Paul wrote 1 Cor 13: contrasting what will last into eternity (faith, hope, and love) with what won't.
 Quoting: Life and Love


thanks, L&L, i think we are the only ones here that care....
 Quoting: Salt


Great book that makes this very point is "After You Believe" by N. T. Wright. I find it more than "mere coincidence" that you are posting what I have been pondering.

[link to www.amazon.com]

Thanks, OP.

hf
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/04/2012 09:05 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
you know, i have been so vexed with this whole word of knowledge, doom prophets, and such, going on. it needs to be exposed and there isn't much of that going on.
Life and Love

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09/04/2012 09:08 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
you know, i have been so vexed with this whole word of knowledge, doom prophets, and such, going on. it needs to be exposed and there isn't much of that going on.
 Quoting: Salt


I agree, but as you wrote above, no one other than you or me is particularly interested.

I'm working on something on what it means to be the church, and I've come to the conclusion that once the man-made stuff is blown away, the church is being the church when the church is being responsive to God. Nothing more, nothing less.
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
Axx
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09/04/2012 09:22 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
The "faith of Jesus", yes.

Jesus says "if you love me keep my commandments."

We are told exactly who has right to the Tree of Life.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (also verse 14:12)

The faith of Jesus is the Gospel which includes the prophetic books especially the book of Revelation from Jesus.
Life and Love

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09/04/2012 09:23 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
The "faith of Jesus", yes.

Jesus says "if you love me keep my commandments."

We are told exactly who has right to the Tree of Life.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (also verse 14:12)

The faith of Jesus is the Gospel which includes the prophetic books especially the book of Revelation from Jesus.
 Quoting: Axx 6824296


Is ^^THIS^^ on topic?
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
Axx
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09/04/2012 10:09 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
The "faith of Jesus", yes.

Jesus says "if you love me keep my commandments."

We are told exactly who has right to the Tree of Life.

Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (also verse 14:12)

The faith of Jesus is the Gospel which includes the prophetic books especially the book of Revelation from Jesus.
 Quoting: Axx 6824296


Is ^^THIS^^ on topic?
 Quoting: Life and Love


Ask Him when you get there.

OP is going on about "end time doom prophets" I guess adding to the word. I agree the testament is closed, but dont know who these prophets are?

What end time doom prophets?

Some have misread the prophecies while others do twist the words. But who has added to it, Mormons?

Some would say the rapture doctrine was added. It's certainly false.
Anonymous Coward
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09/04/2012 10:14 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Why don't you just print the whole god damn bible why don't ya?? Do you honestly believe anyone will read all the crap you've posted?
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09/04/2012 10:21 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
I just dropped in to give you an absolute BS vote. I mean, come on - why don't you just print the whole god damn bible? Do you honestly think people are going to read all the crap you write?

Everyone, repeat, EVERYONE is pleasing to Infinite Consciousness (what you term 'god'). FFS we're ALL part of Infinite Consciousness. How can we not be pleasing? You don't have the foggiest idea how this beautiful thing called Creation actually works.
beebee
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/04/2012 10:37 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Why don't you just print the whole god damn bible why don't ya?? Do you honestly believe anyone will read all the crap you've posted?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18544032


anybody who comes along and says they heard personally from God and has a message... suspect and most likely false.
ANHEDONIC

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09/04/2012 10:57 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
gaah

hf

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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09/04/2012 11:15 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
gaah

hf
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


you know you love me...

/sarcasm
ANHEDONIC

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09/04/2012 11:25 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
gaah

hf
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


you know you love me...

/sarcasm
 Quoting: Salt


I do like you.... We just have very different perspectives when it comes to religious/spiritual subject matters... Nothing wrong with that though. I like adversity.

tommywingy

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
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09/04/2012 11:36 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Dear Salt:

I know that you won't believe a single word that I say, but to set the record straight, I must reply.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit are still functioning today.

I know of at least 4 incidents where the speaker spoke in an unknown tongue, but yet it was an earth language.

My assistant pastor, at a YWAM conference in Texas, heard a girl speak in Spanish, yet she didn't know it.

I have a personal friend who spoke for about 1 hour perfectly to Peruvians, yet she doesn't know their language herself. Nearly all came to Jesus Christ as the result of hearing her.

Please carefully check out the truth, before saying anything.
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09/04/2012 11:52 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
I do not agree with the Charismatic movement mentioned in the articles.

If we retain not the knowledge of God we are sure to great loss. Yet there is no need in receiving any knowledge of God out side the Word of God.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

We can fellowship with others and try to help but we can never be the Word of God unto men. Not in any form of newly received or old and hidden knowledge. We have the Word of God and it is sufficient.

The things of this world and the natural saps us can cause slumber and sleep faith with out works and dead.

There is no other way to hear the Lord and listen to His voice except through His Word. We have to obey His Word.

It is damaging and dangerous to us to neglect His Word.

There is a high cost to giving our ears over to teachers of men. This can be the cause of fallen away when the Truth is cast off for teachers wisdom. We fall into idleness then slumber and sleep.

Faith with out works is dead and reprobate faith is a hideous loss........

When many many doctrines,prophecy teachers,renown mens understandings abounding. Great falling away will follow.

The fields will be on fire ablaze in no time at all by the fires of hell.

2 Peter 1:2
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Many many winds of doctrines scorching winds of tongues set on fire of hell.

This should be enough to make a man take heed that hell surely will follow this.

No matter what major dynamic colossal thing arises whether it is a natural disaster or meteor heading straight for earth........

I would have more alarm at seeing the unleashing of the scorching winds....

Because I know when the lying spirits are sent forth unrestrained it is allowed for a reason.

This will hurt you. Run for cover. Run to The Rock fast....hell is in coming via flapping tongues of fire.

I am very simple but I know what is death unto me and that tree I do not want to eat of its fruits.......evil evil fruits of lying tongues.

Judgement sorting sifting and binding.....can man take fire to his bosom and not get burned?

No.

Lord have mercy on us all I pray.
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09/04/2012 11:57 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Me thinks you're way off. Prophecy is alive and well and more than ever as we race towards the end in these last seconds of time. Have you not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Ask Jesus to send it to you, there's nothing like it. The gift of knowledge is one of the gifts and has not been done away with. If you have not been thrown into the pit as Joseph was, you don't know what it is like to have a desperate need to hear personally from God. He will answer personally, not just through the written Word.
ANHEDONIC

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09/05/2012 12:05 AM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Me thinks you're way off. Prophecy is alive and well and more than ever as we race towards the end in these last seconds of time. Have you not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Ask Jesus to send it to you, there's nothing like it. The gift of knowledge is one of the gifts and has not been done away with. If you have not been thrown into the pit as Joseph was, you don't know what it is like to have a desperate need to hear personally from God. He will answer personally, not just through the written Word.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8640456


Is that a Christian conceptualization of a spiritual awakening / kundalini rising?

If I'm way off please don't take offense.

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
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09/05/2012 12:09 AM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Agreed


The original tongues were actually languages.....for people from many different countries who had assembled in Jerusalem......telling them simultaneously in their own language the wonderful works of God. (Acts 2: 5:11)


It is not to be jibberish. The people in church are not to appear as drunkards to outsiders who visit.


You are commanded to only have one or two speak in tongues.....and there must be an interpreter. This is not being done as commanded today.


This is why Pentecostals.....although loving Christ.....and knowing the Gospel......lead a very roller coaster existence in their walk with the Lord.


They will even take it as far as if you do not speak in tongues......you are not saved........thus causing many to stumble.


You open yourself to evil influences when you do things that are not Scriptural......and get tossed about.


Satan is a master at half truths......and has infiltrated nearly every group.....and divided the church.....and caused many to stumble.


This will be ended upon Christ's return......and the body will be re-united as one.

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