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All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away

 
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:08 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Salt has many times here mentioned she uses meditation to hear God. hf In fact its the only way your God fragment in your mind IS heard. Its all obtained by "going within".
 Quoting: Margaret Smith


This is a lie, the very same taught by the serpent in the garden of eden. "You will become as gods." and the new agers teach this very same nonsense.


 Quoting: strategicdiscernment


The many safeguards instilled by those who are programmed by religion is astounding...

Going within, is the only way to gain ground in understanding who you are...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23107892


I notice you did not watch any of the movies since it only took you a few minutes to post. Typical, you only want to hear people who are agreeable... as is with most of those who are of man and of this world.
 Quoting: strategicdiscernment


I do not need to watch - the gist of it was in your statement...

just for the record though - I know who I really am, and that is far from being a man, and of this world... Rather I am participating for experiential learning, just like you...

It is just that, our perspectives are vastly different...
ANHEDONIC

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
...


Found something we agree on!

banana2
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


yes, but i am sure that our definitions of "soul" are two different things.
 Quoting: Salt


Shhh, don't ruin a good thing! : P

Plus I'm not even sure what my definition of a soul is.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


This is a really good question for everyone...

Just what is the/your definition of soul...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23107892


You know I decided that my definition or anyone else's definition really doesn't make a difference to me.... It is what it is and we will all find out when we get to shed these physical bodies....

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
strategicdiscernment

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
...


Found something we agree on!

banana2
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


yes, but i am sure that our definitions of "soul" are two different things.
 Quoting: Salt


Shhh, don't ruin a good thing! : P

Plus I'm not even sure what my definition of a soul is.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


This is a really good question for everyone...

Just what is the/your definition of soul...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23107892



The soul is the self. The soul is only half, and is bound to the world. The spirit of the holy ghost, when we accept it, is what makes us whole. Most importantly it grants us fellowship with Jesus Christ.
“It would never come into their heads to fabricate such colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there must be some other explanation.” -Adolf Hitler 1925
___________
Thread: Understanding our SOVEREIGNTY & REPUBLIC <--- Must watch [2 videos]
___________
“The principle object of their directorate consists in this: To debilitate the public mind by criticism; To lead it away from serious reflections calculated to arouse resistance; To distract the forces of the mind towards a sham fight of empty eloquence.” -The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion
SaltModerator (OP)
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09/05/2012 03:14 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
the soul is the mind, the will, and the emotions.

point to your head. say, "this is my soul"
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:16 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
...


yes, but i am sure that our definitions of "soul" are two different things.
 Quoting: Salt


Shhh, don't ruin a good thing! : P

Plus I'm not even sure what my definition of a soul is.
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


This is a really good question for everyone...

Just what is the/your definition of soul...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23107892



The soul is the self. The soul is only half, and is bound to the world. The spirit of the holy ghost, when we accept it, is what makes us whole. Most importantly it grants us fellowship with Jesus Christ.
 Quoting: strategicdiscernment


Ok, thank you for your perspective!!!

But, here are the facts;

Your soul/higher self, or whatever name you wish to give, is the real player in the galaxy... It is where all information is gathered from all your experiential participation in this galaxy...

Your soul extends a stream from itself to animate your body, call it your spirit, aura if you like... It is this stream that keeps you alive and enables the vast flow of information to your soul...

I know what I am telling you, has to pass through your religious filters, and will be discarded as new age...

Regardless, this is fact, and you will come to know it at some point...
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09/05/2012 03:16 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Dear Salt:

I know that you won't believe a single word that I say, but to set the record straight, I must reply.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit are still functioning today.

I know of at least 4 incidents where the speaker spoke in an unknown tongue, but yet it was an earth language.

My assistant pastor, at a YWAM conference in Texas, heard a girl speak in Spanish, yet she didn't know it.

I have a personal friend who spoke for about 1 hour perfectly to Peruvians, yet she doesn't know their language herself. Nearly all came to Jesus Christ as the result of hearing her.

Please carefully check out the truth, before saying anything.
 Quoting: Alarmed Christian 2206413


I agree^^^....it's the spirit within that's praying to God for us...not the person. Though I believe some people can get the "wrong spirit"in them if they are not sincere. The bible says "these signs shall follow them"....it's a sign, combined with faith to believers he is with us. Only after we are in heaven will these gifts cease. That's why people are still being healed, and also why I can pray in tongues and focus on other things at the same time, it's spirit praying. And after praying in tongues it's cleansing and gives clarity. Something demonic would not leave us feeling so at peace and close to God afterwards. Before I spoke in tongues, I felt the same way as OP. That I was 'looked over" or maybe not good enough in God's eyes to have that gift. I just had to ask and trust.
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:18 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
the soul is the mind, the will, and the emotions.

point to your head. say, "this is my soul"
 Quoting: Salt


Good, because the connection is the crown chakra...But, the repository is not there, only the connection...
strategicdiscernment

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09/05/2012 03:18 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
the soul is the mind, the will, and the emotions.

point to your head. say, "this is my soul"
 Quoting: Salt


Aye. However it is by faith, not works, that we are saved from ourselves. Praise be to our heavenly father for he is the greatest good.

Romans 12:2 KJV

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Last Edited by strategicdiscernment on 09/05/2012 03:20 PM
“It would never come into their heads to fabricate such colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there must be some other explanation.” -Adolf Hitler 1925
___________
Thread: Understanding our SOVEREIGNTY & REPUBLIC <--- Must watch [2 videos]
___________
“The principle object of their directorate consists in this: To debilitate the public mind by criticism; To lead it away from serious reflections calculated to arouse resistance; To distract the forces of the mind towards a sham fight of empty eloquence.” -The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:19 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
You conveniently left off this verse:

1Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues,

Was that an oversight or are you being the teensiest bit
dishonest because it doesn't support your point of view?
SaltModerator (OP)
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09/05/2012 03:20 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Dear Salt:

I know that you won't believe a single word that I say, but to set the record straight, I must reply.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit are still functioning today.

I know of at least 4 incidents where the speaker spoke in an unknown tongue, but yet it was an earth language.

My assistant pastor, at a YWAM conference in Texas, heard a girl speak in Spanish, yet she didn't know it.

I have a personal friend who spoke for about 1 hour perfectly to Peruvians, yet she doesn't know their language herself. Nearly all came to Jesus Christ as the result of hearing her.

Please carefully check out the truth, before saying anything.
 Quoting: Alarmed Christian 2206413


I agree^^^....it's the spirit within that's praying to God for us...not the person. Though I believe some people can get the "wrong spirit"in them if they are not sincere. The bible says "these signs shall follow them"....it's a sign, combined with faith to believers he is with us. Only after we are in heaven will these gifts cease. That's why people are still being healed, and also why I can pray in tongues and focus on other things at the same time, it's spirit praying. And after praying in tongues it's cleansing and gives clarity. Something demonic would not leave us feeling so at peace and close to God afterwards. Before I spoke in tongues, I felt the same way as OP. That I was 'looked over" or maybe not good enough in God's eyes to have that gift. I just had to ask and trust.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17689295


i never said ALL spiritual gifts have ceased and i never said that the Holy Spirit has ceased guiding us into all truth and interceding for us in prayer.

i said that tongues, prophecy and "word of knowledge" have ceased.

do not replace an emotional experience with an experience of God.

talking in gibberish or glosolalia is not a spiritual gift. it is NOT from God.

you might feel good afterward, but that has nothing to do with God.

i have no desire to have a gift that is not from God. i neither desire it nor feel led in anyway to pursue it because i know it is no longer used in the body. it has CEASED.
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
strategicdiscernment

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09/05/2012 03:21 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
You conveniently left off this verse:

1Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues,

Was that an oversight or are you being the teensiest bit
dishonest because it doesn't support your point of view?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1291048


Whom are you referring to?
“It would never come into their heads to fabricate such colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there must be some other explanation.” -Adolf Hitler 1925
___________
Thread: Understanding our SOVEREIGNTY & REPUBLIC <--- Must watch [2 videos]
___________
“The principle object of their directorate consists in this: To debilitate the public mind by criticism; To lead it away from serious reflections calculated to arouse resistance; To distract the forces of the mind towards a sham fight of empty eloquence.” -The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:21 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Work calls - have to go... TTYL
SaltModerator (OP)
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
You conveniently left off this verse:

1Co 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues,

Was that an oversight or are you being the teensiest bit
dishonest because it doesn't support your point of view?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1291048


nope. take the epistle in context and see it for what it is - a word to be taken in the present moment at that time. it was not intended to mean a word for all eternity. it was for the formation of the early church. period.
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:22 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
gaah

hf
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


:) I was going to post something similar.

But nice post, OP hf
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:23 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
All hail princess Celestia, screw Jesus, lol
SaltModerator (OP)
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Work calls - have to go... TTYL
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23107892


bye!

hf
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
SaltModerator (OP)
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09/05/2012 03:23 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
gaah

hf
 Quoting: ANHEDONIC


:) I was going to post something similar.

But nice post, OP hf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14779720


hf
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Open eyes
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09/05/2012 03:26 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Salt, Jerusalem was not destroyed in 70.

Apollonius of Tyana writes to Titus praising him for not massacring everyone.

The Jewish temple was destroyed in 71.

A bible and historical scholar you ain't.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23217444


The Fall of Jerusalem In 70 A.D.

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the Temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the Temple. And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Matthew 24:1-2 )

About 40 years later, (32AD-70AD) and exactly as prophesied by Jesus Christ, the magnificent "Herod's Temple" was completely destroyed, leaving not one stone upon another. It was an event that marked the beginning of the long and arduous Jewish Diaspora. Yet, it was definitely an event foreseen in Bible prophecy. Jesus not only prophesied about the destruction of Jerusalem and its Holy Temple, but added the following statement: (Luke 21:24; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.)

[link to focusonjerusalem.com]
 Quoting: Salt


Hi Salt, thank you very much for posting. I have read through and agree with everything except your interpretation of this passage.

Jesus here said buildings Plural in regards to the temple. I believe this prophesy is yet to be fulfilled as the Wailing wall which is part of the Temple complex still stands stone upon stone.
I have no doubt it will happen and within our lifetime.

Your thoughts?
SaltModerator (OP)
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09/05/2012 03:28 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
there are more than one passage in Jesus' words where he parallels a current situation with one of the future.

this was done deliberately. those who have ears to hear...
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
SaltModerator (OP)
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
the soul is the mind, the will, and the emotions.

point to your head. say, "this is my soul"
 Quoting: Salt

"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
Anonymous Coward
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09/05/2012 03:35 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Dear Salt:

I know that you won't believe a single word that I say, but to set the record straight, I must reply.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit are still functioning today.

I know of at least 4 incidents where the speaker spoke in an unknown tongue, but yet it was an earth language.

My assistant pastor, at a YWAM conference in Texas, heard a girl speak in Spanish, yet she didn't know it.

I have a personal friend who spoke for about 1 hour perfectly to Peruvians, yet she doesn't know their language herself. Nearly all came to Jesus Christ as the result of hearing her.

Please carefully check out the truth, before saying anything.
 Quoting: Alarmed Christian 2206413


I agree^^^....it's the spirit within that's praying to God for us...not the person. Though I believe some people can get the "wrong spirit"in them if they are not sincere. The bible says "these signs shall follow them"....it's a sign, combined with faith to believers he is with us. Only after we are in heaven will these gifts cease. That's why people are still being healed, and also why I can pray in tongues and focus on other things at the same time, it's spirit praying. And after praying in tongues it's cleansing and gives clarity. Something demonic would not leave us feeling so at peace and close to God afterwards. Before I spoke in tongues, I felt the same way as OP. That I was 'looked over" or maybe not good enough in God's eyes to have that gift. I just had to ask and trust.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17689295


i never said ALL spiritual gifts have ceased and i never said that the Holy Spirit has ceased guiding us into all truth and interceding for us in prayer.

i said that tongues, prophecy and "word of knowledge" have ceased.

do not replace an emotional experience with an experience of God.

talking in gibberish or glosolalia is not a spiritual gift. it is NOT from God.

you might feel good afterward, but that has nothing to do with God.

i have no desire to have a gift that is not from God. i neither desire it nor feel led in anyway to pursue it because i know it is no longer used in the body. it has CEASED.
 Quoting: Salt


Like I said OP...I used to think like you for many years, until I was able to speak in tongues. It's not gibberish and it's emotional, it's a spiritual gift and connection to God. Since this has happened, all of my spiritual senses have been sharpened, including him revealing things about to happen in the future in dreams. Since you can't be 100% absolutely sure you are correct in your thinking, I would be wary of misleading believers from a gift God has given. You'll stand accountable for it...biblical.
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09/05/2012 03:40 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Dear Salt:

I know that you won't believe a single word that I say, but to set the record straight, I must reply.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit are still functioning today.

I know of at least 4 incidents where the speaker spoke in an unknown tongue, but yet it was an earth language.

My assistant pastor, at a YWAM conference in Texas, heard a girl speak in Spanish, yet she didn't know it.

I have a personal friend who spoke for about 1 hour perfectly to Peruvians, yet she doesn't know their language herself. Nearly all came to Jesus Christ as the result of hearing her.

Please carefully check out the truth, before saying anything.
 Quoting: Alarmed Christian 2206413


I agree^^^....it's the spirit within that's praying to God for us...not the person. Though I believe some people can get the "wrong spirit"in them if they are not sincere. The bible says "these signs shall follow them"....it's a sign, combined with faith to believers he is with us. Only after we are in heaven will these gifts cease. That's why people are still being healed, and also why I can pray in tongues and focus on other things at the same time, it's spirit praying. And after praying in tongues it's cleansing and gives clarity. Something demonic would not leave us feeling so at peace and close to God afterwards. Before I spoke in tongues, I felt the same way as OP. That I was 'looked over" or maybe not good enough in God's eyes to have that gift. I just had to ask and trust.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17689295


i never said ALL spiritual gifts have ceased and i never said that the Holy Spirit has ceased guiding us into all truth and interceding for us in prayer.

i said that tongues, prophecy and "word of knowledge" have ceased.

do not replace an emotional experience with an experience of God.

talking in gibberish or glosolalia is not a spiritual gift. it is NOT from God.

you might feel good afterward, but that has nothing to do with God.

i have no desire to have a gift that is not from God. i neither desire it nor feel led in anyway to pursue it because i know it is no longer used in the body. it has CEASED.
 Quoting: Salt


Like I said OP...I used to think like you for many years, until I was able to speak in tongues. It's not gibberish and it's emotional, it's a spiritual gift and connection to God. Since this has happened, all of my spiritual senses have been sharpened, including him revealing things about to happen in the future in dreams. Since you can't be 100% absolutely sure you are correct in your thinking, I would be wary of misleading believers from a gift God has given. You'll stand accountable for it...biblical.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17689295


so what foreign human language were you given? do you use it to get je ws to repent? the unbeliever?

Last Edited by Salt on 09/05/2012 03:41 PM
"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
REASONS THAT TONGUES CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY.

1. Tongues were a sign of judgment against Jewish unbelief as a nation.

2. There are 3 major outbreaks of miracles in Scripture

3. Tongues belonged to the infant days of the church.

4. Tongues authenticated the apostles' message as from God.

5. Hebrews 6:5 shows that the only other age of miracles will be the Millenium described as "the powers of the age to come".

6. Hebrews 2:3,4 shows miracles (such as tongues) to be in the past tense, and not continuosly being experienced by the Hebrew Christians of 64 AD.

7. This is also seen in Acts 11:15, where Peter describes tongues at Cornelius household, not as a regular occurrence weekly in every church, but only somethiing that happened last time at Pentecost (Acts 2) "as on us at the beginning".

8. Mark 16:11-20 (especially v.17) shows that the signs that were to follow them that believe related to a brief period, not longer than that covered by the book of Acts, and described in that way in v.19,20.

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
 Quoting: Salt


19. PRAYING IN TONGUES is WRONG because UNDERSTANDING is ABSENT.

"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the UNDERSTANDING ALSO" I Corinthians 14:14,15.

Paul is saying here that if you pray in tongues, your spirit might be trying to express something, but your MIND (or understanding) has no idea what is being said. This is wrong, Paul says. For prayer to be genuine, we must pray with our spirit and with our understanding.

Praying in tongues fails the test of understanding. The mind and voice are disconnected. Many Charismatics will try to justify praying in tongues by quoting Romans 8:26.

"...the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which CANNOT BE UTTERED".

This verse is not talking about praying in tongues becaue tongues are uttered vocal sounds. The Holy Spirit speaks our thoughts to the Father with groanings which cannot be uttered by us, yet prayer tongues are uttered by people.

20. The Process of Elimination shows tongues to be not for believers of today.


Tongues primary purpose was to warn unbelieving jewish people to repent, or God would judge them. They refused to repent, so God judged them in 70 AD, thus making tongues as a warning to the jewish people no longer necessary.

"Tongues are a sign, NOT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE, but to them that BELIEVE NOT..." I Corinthians 14;22.

Tongues are a sign for one of three types of people. Which one?

a) NOT FOR BELIEVERS. 14:22. This means that tongues have no purpose for believers. For Christians to speak in tongues is not valid.

b) NOT FOR GENTILE UNBELIVERS. 14:23. Those unlearned in the Old Testament meaning of tongues, or unbelievers, "will they not say that ye are mad?" This describes unsaved Gentiles. Tongues are not for this group because the history of Assyrian and Babylonian tongues as a warning of a judgment to Israel meant nothing to them.

c) JEWISH UNBELIEVERS. 14:21. "In the law (Isaiah 28:11, Jeremiah 5:15 and Deuteronomy 28:49) it is written, with men of other tongues (Assyrian, Babylonian, Roman) and other lips will I speak unto this people (jewish people); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord".

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
 Quoting: Salt


QUESTIONS TO ASK CHARISMATICS THAT PROVE TONGUES TO BE UNBIBLICAL.

Q1. Did you speak in tongues because someone asked you to, or did tongues come to you without you seeking it, and without anyone suggesting you to do it, as in the New Testament?

Q2. When you were asked to speak in tongues, did you say "No, wait until I have thoroughly and completely studied and understood every verse on the subject?"

Q3. Do you use your tongue as a warning to jewish people to repent?

Q4. Do you always have your tongue correctly interpreted?

"Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret". I Corinthians 14:13

Q5. Do you speak in tongues to edify yourself or to edify the church?

"Seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church" I Corinthians 14:12.

Q6. Do women speak in tongues aloud in your church?

"Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak.....for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." 1 Cor 14:34,35.

Q7. Do two or at the most three speak in "tongues" at your meetings? I Cor 14:27.

Q8. Do your "tongues" speakers speak in turn after being interpreted, or do they all speak at the same time?

Q9. Which spirit gave you your tongue?

If you think it is the Holy Spirit, can you prove it? How?

Q10. Did you receive your tongue when someone told you to relax, be passive, blank out your mind, and let anything come out? or

Q11. Were you strongly refusing anything which satan might send you? Did you constantly pray for God to keep you from everything not of Him when people challenged you to speak in tongues?

Q12. Does your tongue ever get out of control, or does it take over your prayer time?

Q13. What do you learn more about God through your tongue?

Q14. Do people in your church suppress their tongues if there is no genuine interpreter present?

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church..." I Corinthians 14:28

Q15. Can you find one Biblical example of a woman speaking in tongues?

[link to solascriptura-tt.org]
 Quoting: Salt


Tape Recorder Test Disproves Interpretation of Tongues.

If no one passes the Interpretation test, then neither does anyone possess the genuine gift of tongues.

This scientific test will disprove anyone's claim to have the gift of "Interpretation of tongues".

Assemble, one person who claims to have the gift of tongues, and another two people who claim to have the gift of interpreting tongues, keeping both groups separate.

Let the first person speak in tongues, while you tape record him speaking.

Then bring the first interpreter into the room to hear the taped tongue replayed.

Tape record his interpretation of the tongue.

Then bring the second interpreter into the room to hear the same tongue replayed.

Tape record his interpretation of the same tongue. You will find that the second interpretation will disagree with the first person's interpretation.

Why is this? It is becaue no one today has the first century supernatural gift of interpretation of tongues, this gift having passed away by 70 AD.

It follows therefore, that if the interpretation gift is found to be NON-GENUINE, then the tongues gift is also NON-GENUINE.

Notice please that when someone speaks gibberish, claiming that he is speaking in an unknown tongue, he is , by deception, taking advantage of the fact that the hearer does not know every language in the Universe. The hearer, who is caught off guard, finds it hard to state that this gibberish is not a language.

So let us turn the tables and ask if his two interpreter friends can interpret any tongue consistently.

Note: A variation on this test is to get up in a Charismatic meeting, speak something in a foreign language that you know the meaning of, and then ask for it to be correctly interpreted, e.g. quote the Lords prayer in Latvian. You will find that the interpretation given, will be nothing like the true meaning of what you said. You may then expose them publicly as deceivers and as being deceived.
 Quoting: Salt

"The only religion that God the Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being ensnared by the world." --James 1:27
--

“Read everything, listen to everybody, don’t trust anything unless you can prove it with your own research” --William Cooper
---

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you?
To seek justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
--Michah 6:8
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD.

Bible Reading: I Corinthians 13:8-13.

Aim: To show that tongues ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

To show that prophecy and knowledge gifts ceased in 96 AD with the completion of the New Testament.

Introduction: If these three gifts ceased in the first century, then the modern tongues movement is not of God and should be rejected as unbiblical. The following exegesis of I Corinthians 13:8-13, is intended as a springboard to understand how the entire Bible teaching on this subject fits together to show that the purpose of tongues was a warning to Israel, and hence, ceased by 70 AD. It will be shown that prophecy and knowledge gifts were God's temporary means of revelation to the early Church until the completed New Testament had been given. Today, God speaks through His Word, not through some person giving what he calls is a prophecy from God.

I Corinthians 13:8-13.

13:8. "Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (Greek: Katargethesontai); whether there be tongues, they shall cease (Greek: pausontai), whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" (Greek: Katargethesetai).


Note first that "Charity never faileth". This means that love will continue on forever. It is the only one of the 6 phenomena discussed here that continues forever. This means that faith, hope, prophecy, tongues and knowledge all stop, but when?

I Corinthians 13:13 tells us "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".

We learn here that faith, hope and charity continue all through the church age. This means that prophecy, tongues and knowledge are not said to continue all through the Church age, but cease sometime before the second coming (rapture) of Christ.


Question 1: When does faith stop?

Answer: When Christ returns at the rapture to catch the church up to heaven.

II Corinthians 5:7. "For we walk by faith, not by sight". When we get to heaven we will see what we had faith in, so that faith will give way to sight.
I Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end5056 (Greek: telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls".This tells us that faith will end when we get to heaven, thus enjoying salvation or deliverance from the presence of sin. "Telos" means "end, result, termination, ultimate fate, completion in respect to time, or fulfilment".

Hence faith for us ends at the second coming of Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher5047(teleiotes) of our faith."

Jesus Christ finishes our faith when He returns for us at His second coming, and we "reach our goal" ("teleiotes" in Greek) of heaven.


Question 2: When does HOPE stop?

Answer: When we get what we are hoping for in heaven. For example, if you are married, you are not hoping to get married because you then possess what you hoped for. Believers are hoping for Christ's second coming (Titus 2:13), and the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6). When we have what we hope for, then hope finishes. "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Titus 2:13.

"..of the hope and resurrection of the dead am I called in question". Acts 23:6 and Acts 26:6.

"....hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:24.

Hope will only remain until we see Christ and receive our resurrection bodies at His second coming. Hence hope is valid only until the second coming.

Hence faith will be lost in sight; hope will be lost in reality; and love continues for all eternity.

I Corinthians 13:13. "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity". Because only faith, hope and charity are abiding throughout the church age, these three alone, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge must cease sometime INSIDE the church age. The time these (and the other temporary gifts) ceased had to have been before the completion of the New Testament.

Question 3: When do prophecy, and knowledge gifts cease?

Answer: "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail2673 (Greek: Katargethesontai);......whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away2673 (Greek Katargethesetai)."

Meaning: "Katargeo" means to render inoperative, to make inactive, to be done away, to supercede, put an end to. With Paul it always denotes a complete cessation, not a temporary or partial ceasing.

Every occurrence of "Katargeo" in 13:8,10 is in the passive voice, indicating that something shall make prophecy and knowledge inactive.

Question 4: What are prophecy and knowledge?

1. The gift of prohecy in the apostolic church was speaking new revelation from God, to instruct and edify. Prophecy has a secondary meaning of forthtelling God's Word to teach and comfort the Church.

This is Bible teaching of today. Teaching replaced first century prophecy. A person knew, then prophesied. They were twin gifts.

2. The gift of knowledge in the apostolic Church was the ability to understand and know the mind and will of God. It was revealed truth, not learned. It is seeing as the Holy spirit sees. It was used to teach believers certain doctrines which had not as yet been written as part of the New Testament.

For example, Peter knew who Jesus really was. Matthew 16:17.

Agabus knew and then prophesied about Paul being bound at Jerusalem. Acts 21:10-12.

Paul knew the demonised damsel's mesage to be false. Acts 16:18

Such knowledge, like prophecy, was as authoritative as the scriptures in the early church.

Each of these gifts can refer to either:

a) an action - the exercising of the gifts in the church where he prophesies or gives a word of knowledge.

b) content - in Matthew 13:14,15 Christ quotes what Isaiah said 750 years earlier, which was now part of Scripture. When prophecy or knowledge became codified as scripture, they stood alone, no longer as the "act" of prophecy and knowledge, but as the "content" of prophecy and knowledge, now become written scripture.

3. The gift of tongues or unlearned languages, was similar yet inferior to prophecy and knowledge in that the tongues speaker needed to be translated.

Paul said in I Corinthian 14:18,19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".

Speaking in a tongue and having it translated only allows the speaker to say half as much in a given time, as could a prophet or word of knowledge in the common tongue. Tongues were cumbersome verbage. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge form the subject of 1 Corinthian 13:8-13. Something is going to happen to each of them. None of them are to abide during the Church age, as will faith, hope and love. They are transient gifts.

13:8. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease 3973" (Greek: pausontai).

Here "pausontai is used in an absolute sense, to cease, to come to an end".

["The Complete N.T. Word Study Dictionary", S. Zhodiates, p.1132.]

"Pausontai" is in the middle voice, indicative mood, meaning that the action of ceasing will come from within, rather than from outside.

"Cease" means that tongues would fulfil their function (of warning jewish people of coming Judgment), and render themselves obsolete, unneeded, ended. Literally it means "tongues shall make themselves to cease, or automatically cease of themselves." [A.T. Robertson Vol.IV, p.179.]

13.9. "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part". Since v.9 omits tongues, it would appear that tongues would cease before the removal of prophecy and knowledge. "In part" defines quantity, and the word "perfect" meaning "complete" is the opposite to "in part".

Knowledge of doctrine in the pre-canon period of the Church Age was fragmentary. The 14 mystery doctrines of this dispensation had not yet been completely given in New Testament Scripture. They could only teach from the Old Testament and by direct revelation from God via prophecy and knowledge. They knew in part, and consequently, they prophesied in part.

13:10. "But when that which is perfect (Greek: "teleion" meaning complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (Greek: "Katargetheseta" meaning to render inoperative). Prophecy and knowledge, both being ""in part"", will be done away with when the perfect shall come.

Question 5: When does the perfect come?

a) If it is the second coming of Christ, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge are allowable today.

b) If it is the completed New Testament Scriptures of 96 AD then prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all ceased in the first entury and are not for today.

Question 6: To answer question 5, we must ask another question: What is "that which is perfect?"

Answer: Several opinions are: 1. Jesus Christ at His second coming. 2. the perfected state of the believer at Christ''s return. 3. After the millenium in the new heaven and new earth. 4. the completed New Testament Scriptures.Consider these reasons why the perfect refers to the completed New Testament scriptures:

1. "When that (Greek: To Teleion) which is perfect is come"

The pronoun "THAT" in Greek, describing the perfect, is neuter.

Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.

2. "Perfect" in Greek means "complete, finished". The N.T. by 96 AD was completed and finished as God's revelation for this Church age. The completed N.T. canon of Scripture would serve the same purpose that prophecy, tongues, knowledge, apostleship, healing, miracles and other temporary spiritual gifts had once performed. Christ is never called the complete or finished one.

3. "Perfect" cannot mean Christ's return, becaue Christ's second coming is foreign to the context of I Corinthians 12,13,14 being mentioned nowhere in these 3 chapters. The subject of I Corinthians 12, 13,14 is spiritual gifts to the church in the church age. To extend prophecy, tongues and knowledge into the millenium or after the millenium is to miss the focus and context of the passage.

4. James 1:25 describes the perfect as the Bible, the perfect law of liberty.

The meaning of "perfect" in scripture can be determined by it's use in other passages of scripture. "Teleion", the "perfect" or "completed" was already in the New Testament when Paul wrote. James had alrady referred to the Word of God as the "perfect law of liberty in" James 1:25.

"But be ye doors of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves."

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:22, 25.

"Perfect" in James 1:25 in Greek is "teleion" the same as "perfect" in 1 Corinthian 13:10. In James 1:25 "perfect" clearly refers to the soon to be completed Bible, and this must be the same meaning in I Corinthians 13:10.

In James 1:22-25 the perfect law of liberty is the Bible.

Therefore, in I Corinthians 13:10 the perfect is the Bible.

5. James 1:23 and 1 Corinthinas 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in.

"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass." James 1:23.

"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then (when the perfect, completed Bible has come) face to face" 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As we look into a mirror to see our true physical condition of our face, so we look into the Bible as a mirror to see our true spiritual condition.

Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance.

Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance.

Therefore, GLASS MIRROR = PERFECT = the WORD OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does.

6. II Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us.

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord".

The mirror/glass is a symbol of the Word of God. (James 1:22,25).

As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

We can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ("He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son....". Romans 8:29) and go from glory to glory, by the Holy Spirit changing us as we saturate ourselves in the Word of God.

"are changed (Greek: metamorphoumetha) into the same image from glory to glory". The Greek word "changed" gives us the word "metamorphosis" which describes the process of an insect changing from an ugly worm into a mature beautiful butterfly. The changes come from within. So it is when we meditate on God's Word and in it see Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit transforms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

In the Bible we see the glory of Christ and are changed into His image.

13:12. In I Corinthians 13:12, only a few New Testament books were completed. The glory of the Lord revealed in the word was not complete. First century believers could neither see Christ, nor themselves, in the full light of God's revelation. They could only see darkly or dimly. However with the completion of Scripture, not only would the glory of Christ be revealed in greater fullness, but so would the believer's own reflection become clearer. Why? Because the believer after 96 AD has more Scripture to transform him into Christ's image.

The "perfect" is the opposite of that which is "in part."

Paul viewed his own writings as Scripture (1 Thessalonians 2:13) He knew that new revelation was being given and that one day it would cease. In the same way that God had completed the Old Testament, God would also complete the New Testament. Paul's use of the phrases "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (13:9) show that he is dealing with a partially completed Bible that was being added to by the Apostle's revelations from God.

1. The Second Coming is never called "perfect" in the New Testament, but the Bible is called the perfect law of liberty in James 1:25.

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul......."

2. The completed New Testament fulfilled the same job as did the temporary gifts of prophecy and knowledge. Once prophecy and knowledge were codified (written down) as the New Testament, then prophecy and knowledge ceased. ie. New revelation of prophecy and knowledge ceased when the full N.T. revelation for this age was completed.

3. Christ's second coming is neither complete nor morally perfect. In the millenium, the sinner will die 100 years old (Isaiah 65:20). The millenium ends with satan's release from the pit and nations rebelling to attack Christ at Jerusalem. Not a perfect or complete situation at all.

4. Faith and Hope finish at the second coming (13:13).

Therefore, prophecy, knowledge and tongues, each not abiding during the church age, are said to end well before faith and hope ends (compare 1 Corinthians

13:8 with 1 Corinithians13:13).

Prophecy, knowledge and tongues end well before the second coming.

Prophecy and knowledge end by the coming of the perfect, completed Word of God in 96 AD.

Tongues ended by 70 AD, with Titus destroying Jerusalem and the judgment predicted coming on the jewish people for rejecting Christ's gospel. You don't warn people after the punishment has fallen.

5. The completed Bible is able to make believers complete by giving us all things that pertain to life and godliness. (II Peter 1:3,4).

We don't need new revelation.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory (in heaven) and virtue (now on earth).

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises (in the perfect Bible) that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (changed from glory to glory)." II Peter 1:3,4.

This is obtained through:

1) the knowledge of Christ found in the Bible, and

2) by claiming the exceeding great and precious promises in the Bible.

Everything that we need today for life and Godliness to make us mature, completely equipped Christians is found in the Bible. Hence, the Bible is appropriately called the "complete Completer" for us today, the exact meaning of "teleion" in I Corinthians 13:10.

6. The completed Bible (all Scripture) can make the man of God "perfect" (Greek: "artios739" meaning "complete, sufficient, completely qualified; a synonym of "teleion"), throughly furnished unto all good works". II Timothy 3:16,17.

Here again, "all Scripture" making the man of God perfect, supports "perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 as meaning the Bible, and not the second coming of Christ. Therefore, when the perfected, completed Bible comes, then the "in part" prophecy and knowledge shall be done away. This happened in 96AD when John finished writing Revelation 22:21.

Question 7: Why is tongues not mentioned in I Corinthians 13:9,10 as being done away with by the perfect?


Answer: It is because tongues had already ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, being the judgment on the jewish people that tongues pointed to (I Corinthians 14:21,22). After 70 AD, there was no more purpose for tongues, so the tongues gift ceased forever by 70 AD. Tongues were not in existence to be done away with by "the perfect." Tongues had ceased 26 years earlier.

Those who think that the "perfect" is Christ's return and reject it as meaning the completed New Testament Scripture, do so because:

1. They have not studied every word, phrase, or verse of I Corinthians 13 in its context or

2. They are mentally influenced by someone with leaning towards Pentecostalism or

3. They are influenced by some interdenominational teacher whose decision about this scripture is non-committal so as to retain his popularity with both charismatic and non charismatic groups.

4. No scripture is ever produced in proof that the Holy Spirit did not mean the complete New Testament.

If knowledge ended at Christ's return, and if knowledge meant normal knowledge, then all Christians would be imbeciles in heaven.

Note: It is not good to say that God spoke to you and told you to do something, because if you are wrong, you lose your credibility. Instead, say "I felt led or burdened by the Lord to.....".

13:11. "When I was a child, I spake as a child (tongues)

I understand as a child (Knowledge, I thought as a child (prophecy is verbalised thoughts): but when I became a man, I put away childish things".

...continued...
 Quoting: Salt


Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away <<<-------WRONG!
ANHEDONIC

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
I don't think I could hang out in the presence of anyone who was speaking in 'tongues'.... I'm all about open & clear communication. cool2

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
well if it did pass away it's being resurrected even as we speak.

the world doesn't even seem to know what speaking in tongues means, as per they're demonstration of such by the many who believe they are doing so when they simply cease to communicate by regular means and jabber/babble freely instead

speaking in "tongues" in no way means people who babble nonsensically are speaking thusly or for that matter that they are speaking AT ALL, let alone in the universal language that is familiar to All in All simultaneously despite obvious language barriers which yet exist in this world. babbling as such is akin instead to those who are in some form of satanic stupor, poor things.

the word "tongues" means "languages"

languages are those manners of speaking in which those accustomed to each are most familiar, their common vernacular and dialect included.

when you hear words issuing from the mouth of an individual and everyone in every country and tongue around the world can hear and understand what they are speaking in their OWN language/tongue at the same moment in time, then you will know you are hearing from the holy spirit who doth speak through whomsoever the Father wills that it shall.

this place is so upside down and backwards it's all but in and over it's head in bullshit, rhetoric, and those who imagine they know far more than they apparently have the capacity to do.

time to open the eyes and simply pay attention. if you insist on trying to contribute you'd do well to know your subject matter with surety prior to bothering.

if you are here to muddy the waters keep it up, tho Babylon has that angle pretty well covered it would seem.

as far as prophecy goeth I'm not even going to bother to clarify that and will further simply allow the record to speak for itself, as it's ever been far more than capable of so doing.

Knowledge. anyone who believes that the usefulness of same has passed into the oblivion of this present tense Babylonia is clearly just another casualty of same. sign of the times, in deed.

Behold, I shall put my words into the mouths of mine annointed and they shall prophecy before man at my behest.

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
WHY PROPHECY, TONGUES AND KNOWLEDGE CEASED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AD.

Bible Reading: I Corinthians 13:8-13.

Aim: To show that tongues ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

To show that prophecy and knowledge gifts ceased in 96 AD with the completion of the New Testament.

Introduction: If these three gifts ceased in the first century, then the modern tongues movement is not of God and should be rejected as unbiblical. The following exegesis of I Corinthians 13:8-13, is intended as a springboard to understand how the entire Bible teaching on this subject fits together to show that the purpose of tongues was a warning to Israel, and hence, ceased by 70 AD. It will be shown that prophecy and knowledge gifts were God's temporary means of revelation to the early Church until the completed New Testament had been given. Today, God speaks through His Word, not through some person giving what he calls is a prophecy from God.

I Corinthians 13:8-13.

13:8. "Charity never faileth; but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail (Greek: Katargethesontai); whether there be tongues, they shall cease (Greek: pausontai), whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" (Greek: Katargethesetai).


Note first that "Charity never faileth". This means that love will continue on forever. It is the only one of the 6 phenomena discussed here that continues forever. This means that faith, hope, prophecy, tongues and knowledge all stop, but when?

I Corinthians 13:13 tells us "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity".

We learn here that faith, hope and charity continue all through the church age. This means that prophecy, tongues and knowledge are not said to continue all through the Church age, but cease sometime before the second coming (rapture) of Christ.


Question 1: When does faith stop?

Answer: When Christ returns at the rapture to catch the church up to heaven.

II Corinthians 5:7. "For we walk by faith, not by sight". When we get to heaven we will see what we had faith in, so that faith will give way to sight.
I Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end5056 (Greek: telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls".This tells us that faith will end when we get to heaven, thus enjoying salvation or deliverance from the presence of sin. "Telos" means "end, result, termination, ultimate fate, completion in respect to time, or fulfilment".

Hence faith for us ends at the second coming of Christ.

Hebrews 12:2: "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher5047(teleiotes) of our faith."

Jesus Christ finishes our faith when He returns for us at His second coming, and we "reach our goal" ("teleiotes" in Greek) of heaven.


Question 2: When does HOPE stop?

Answer: When we get what we are hoping for in heaven. For example, if you are married, you are not hoping to get married because you then possess what you hoped for. Believers are hoping for Christ's second coming (Titus 2:13), and the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6). When we have what we hope for, then hope finishes. "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ". Titus 2:13.

"..of the hope and resurrection of the dead am I called in question". Acts 23:6 and Acts 26:6.

"....hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" Romans 8:24.

Hope will only remain until we see Christ and receive our resurrection bodies at His second coming. Hence hope is valid only until the second coming.

Hence faith will be lost in sight; hope will be lost in reality; and love continues for all eternity.

I Corinthians 13:13. "And now abides faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity". Because only faith, hope and charity are abiding throughout the church age, these three alone, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge must cease sometime INSIDE the church age. The time these (and the other temporary gifts) ceased had to have been before the completion of the New Testament.

Question 3: When do prophecy, and knowledge gifts cease?

Answer: "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail2673 (Greek: Katargethesontai);......whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away2673 (Greek Katargethesetai)."

Meaning: "Katargeo" means to render inoperative, to make inactive, to be done away, to supercede, put an end to. With Paul it always denotes a complete cessation, not a temporary or partial ceasing.

Every occurrence of "Katargeo" in 13:8,10 is in the passive voice, indicating that something shall make prophecy and knowledge inactive.

Question 4: What are prophecy and knowledge?

1. The gift of prohecy in the apostolic church was speaking new revelation from God, to instruct and edify. Prophecy has a secondary meaning of forthtelling God's Word to teach and comfort the Church.

This is Bible teaching of today. Teaching replaced first century prophecy. A person knew, then prophesied. They were twin gifts.

2. The gift of knowledge in the apostolic Church was the ability to understand and know the mind and will of God. It was revealed truth, not learned. It is seeing as the Holy spirit sees. It was used to teach believers certain doctrines which had not as yet been written as part of the New Testament.

For example, Peter knew who Jesus really was. Matthew 16:17.

Agabus knew and then prophesied about Paul being bound at Jerusalem. Acts 21:10-12.

Paul knew the demonised damsel's mesage to be false. Acts 16:18

Such knowledge, like prophecy, was as authoritative as the scriptures in the early church.

Each of these gifts can refer to either:

a) an action - the exercising of the gifts in the church where he prophesies or gives a word of knowledge.

b) content - in Matthew 13:14,15 Christ quotes what Isaiah said 750 years earlier, which was now part of Scripture. When prophecy or knowledge became codified as scripture, they stood alone, no longer as the "act" of prophecy and knowledge, but as the "content" of prophecy and knowledge, now become written scripture.

3. The gift of tongues or unlearned languages, was similar yet inferior to prophecy and knowledge in that the tongues speaker needed to be translated.

Paul said in I Corinthian 14:18,19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue".

Speaking in a tongue and having it translated only allows the speaker to say half as much in a given time, as could a prophet or word of knowledge in the common tongue. Tongues were cumbersome verbage. Prophecy, tongues and knowledge form the subject of 1 Corinthian 13:8-13. Something is going to happen to each of them. None of them are to abide during the Church age, as will faith, hope and love. They are transient gifts.

13:8. "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease 3973" (Greek: pausontai).

Here "pausontai is used in an absolute sense, to cease, to come to an end".

["The Complete N.T. Word Study Dictionary", S. Zhodiates, p.1132.]

"Pausontai" is in the middle voice, indicative mood, meaning that the action of ceasing will come from within, rather than from outside.

"Cease" means that tongues would fulfil their function (of warning jewish people of coming Judgment), and render themselves obsolete, unneeded, ended. Literally it means "tongues shall make themselves to cease, or automatically cease of themselves." [A.T. Robertson Vol.IV, p.179.]

13.9. "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part". Since v.9 omits tongues, it would appear that tongues would cease before the removal of prophecy and knowledge. "In part" defines quantity, and the word "perfect" meaning "complete" is the opposite to "in part".

Knowledge of doctrine in the pre-canon period of the Church Age was fragmentary. The 14 mystery doctrines of this dispensation had not yet been completely given in New Testament Scripture. They could only teach from the Old Testament and by direct revelation from God via prophecy and knowledge. They knew in part, and consequently, they prophesied in part.

13:10. "But when that which is perfect (Greek: "teleion" meaning complete) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (Greek: "Katargetheseta" meaning to render inoperative). Prophecy and knowledge, both being ""in part"", will be done away with when the perfect shall come.

Question 5: When does the perfect come?

a) If it is the second coming of Christ, then prophecy, tongues and knowledge are allowable today.

b) If it is the completed New Testament Scriptures of 96 AD then prophecy, tongues and knowledge have all ceased in the first entury and are not for today.

Question 6: To answer question 5, we must ask another question: What is "that which is perfect?"

Answer: Several opinions are: 1. Jesus Christ at His second coming. 2. the perfected state of the believer at Christ''s return. 3. After the millenium in the new heaven and new earth. 4. the completed New Testament Scriptures.Consider these reasons why the perfect refers to the completed New Testament scriptures:

1. "When that (Greek: To Teleion) which is perfect is come"

The pronoun "THAT" in Greek, describing the perfect, is neuter.

Christ however is masculine, not neuter, so "that which is perfect" cannot refer to Christ or His return. The Bible is neuter. This fits the context perfectly.

2. "Perfect" in Greek means "complete, finished". The N.T. by 96 AD was completed and finished as God's revelation for this Church age. The completed N.T. canon of Scripture would serve the same purpose that prophecy, tongues, knowledge, apostleship, healing, miracles and other temporary spiritual gifts had once performed. Christ is never called the complete or finished one.

3. "Perfect" cannot mean Christ's return, becaue Christ's second coming is foreign to the context of I Corinthians 12,13,14 being mentioned nowhere in these 3 chapters. The subject of I Corinthians 12, 13,14 is spiritual gifts to the church in the church age. To extend prophecy, tongues and knowledge into the millenium or after the millenium is to miss the focus and context of the passage.

4. James 1:25 describes the perfect as the Bible, the perfect law of liberty.

The meaning of "perfect" in scripture can be determined by it's use in other passages of scripture. "Teleion", the "perfect" or "completed" was already in the New Testament when Paul wrote. James had alrady referred to the Word of God as the "perfect law of liberty in" James 1:25.

"But be ye doors of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves."

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:22, 25.

"Perfect" in James 1:25 in Greek is "teleion" the same as "perfect" in 1 Corinthian 13:10. In James 1:25 "perfect" clearly refers to the soon to be completed Bible, and this must be the same meaning in I Corinthians 13:10.

In James 1:22-25 the perfect law of liberty is the Bible.

Therefore, in I Corinthians 13:10 the perfect is the Bible.

5. James 1:23 and 1 Corinthinas 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in.

"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass." James 1:23.

"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then (when the perfect, completed Bible has come) face to face" 1 Corinthians 13:12.

As we look into a mirror to see our true physical condition of our face, so we look into the Bible as a mirror to see our true spiritual condition.

Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance.

Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance.

Therefore, GLASS MIRROR = PERFECT = the WORD OF GOD.

1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does.

6. II Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us.

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord".

The mirror/glass is a symbol of the Word of God. (James 1:22,25).

As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.

We can be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ ("He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son....". Romans 8:29) and go from glory to glory, by the Holy Spirit changing us as we saturate ourselves in the Word of God.

"are changed (Greek: metamorphoumetha) into the same image from glory to glory". The Greek word "changed" gives us the word "metamorphosis" which describes the process of an insect changing from an ugly worm into a mature beautiful butterfly. The changes come from within. So it is when we meditate on God's Word and in it see Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit transforms us into the image of Jesus Christ.

In the Bible we see the glory of Christ and are changed into His image.

13:12. In I Corinthians 13:12, only a few New Testament books were completed. The glory of the Lord revealed in the word was not complete. First century believers could neither see Christ, nor themselves, in the full light of God's revelation. They could only see darkly or dimly. However with the completion of Scripture, not only would the glory of Christ be revealed in greater fullness, but so would the believer's own reflection become clearer. Why? Because the believer after 96 AD has more Scripture to transform him into Christ's image.

The "perfect" is the opposite of that which is "in part."

Paul viewed his own writings as Scripture (1 Thessalonians 2:13) He knew that new revelation was being given and that one day it would cease. In the same way that God had completed the Old Testament, God would also complete the New Testament. Paul's use of the phrases "we know in part and we prophesy in part" (13:9) show that he is dealing with a partially completed Bible that was being added to by the Apostle's revelations from God.

1. The Second Coming is never called "perfect" in the New Testament, but the Bible is called the perfect law of liberty in James 1:25.

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul......."

2. The completed New Testament fulfilled the same job as did the temporary gifts of prophecy and knowledge. Once prophecy and knowledge were codified (written down) as the New Testament, then prophecy and knowledge ceased. ie. New revelation of prophecy and knowledge ceased when the full N.T. revelation for this age was completed.

3. Christ's second coming is neither complete nor morally perfect. In the millenium, the sinner will die 100 years old (Isaiah 65:20). The millenium ends with satan's release from the pit and nations rebelling to attack Christ at Jerusalem. Not a perfect or complete situation at all.

4. Faith and Hope finish at the second coming (13:13).

Therefore, prophecy, knowledge and tongues, each not abiding during the church age, are said to end well before faith and hope ends (compare 1 Corinthians

13:8 with 1 Corinithians13:13).

Prophecy, knowledge and tongues end well before the second coming.

Prophecy and knowledge end by the coming of the perfect, completed Word of God in 96 AD.

Tongues ended by 70 AD, with Titus destroying Jerusalem and the judgment predicted coming on the jewish people for rejecting Christ's gospel. You don't warn people after the punishment has fallen.

5. The completed Bible is able to make believers complete by giving us all things that pertain to life and godliness. (II Peter 1:3,4).

We don't need new revelation.

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory (in heaven) and virtue (now on earth).

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises (in the perfect Bible) that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature (changed from glory to glory)." II Peter 1:3,4.

This is obtained through:

1) the knowledge of Christ found in the Bible, and

2) by claiming the exceeding great and precious promises in the Bible.

Everything that we need today for life and Godliness to make us mature, completely equipped Christians is found in the Bible. Hence, the Bible is appropriately called the "complete Completer" for us today, the exact meaning of "teleion" in I Corinthians 13:10.

6. The completed Bible (all Scripture) can make the man of God "perfect" (Greek: "artios739" meaning "complete, sufficient, completely qualified; a synonym of "teleion"), throughly furnished unto all good works". II Timothy 3:16,17.

Here again, "all Scripture" making the man of God perfect, supports "perfect" in I Corinthians 13:10 as meaning the Bible, and not the second coming of Christ. Therefore, when the perfected, completed Bible comes, then the "in part" prophecy and knowledge shall be done away. This happened in 96AD when John finished writing Revelation 22:21.

Question 7: Why is tongues not mentioned in I Corinthians 13:9,10 as being done away with by the perfect?


Answer: It is because tongues had already ceased in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, being the judgment on the jewish people that tongues pointed to (I Corinthians 14:21,22). After 70 AD, there was no more purpose for tongues, so the tongues gift ceased forever by 70 AD. Tongues were not in existence to be done away with by "the perfect." Tongues had ceased 26 years earlier.

Those who think that the "perfect" is Christ's return and reject it as meaning the completed New Testament Scripture, do so because:

1. They have not studied every word, phrase, or verse of I Corinthians 13 in its context or

2. They are mentally influenced by someone with leaning towards Pentecostalism or

3. They are influenced by some interdenominational teacher whose decision about this scripture is non-committal so as to retain his popularity with both charismatic and non charismatic groups.

4. No scripture is ever produced in proof that the Holy Spirit did not mean the complete New Testament.

If knowledge ended at Christ's return, and if knowledge meant normal knowledge, then all Christians would be imbeciles in heaven.

Note: It is not good to say that God spoke to you and told you to do something, because if you are wrong, you lose your credibility. Instead, say "I felt led or burdened by the Lord to.....".

13:11. "When I was a child, I spake as a child (tongues)

I understand as a child (Knowledge, I thought as a child (prophecy is verbalised thoughts): but when I became a man, I put away childish things".

...continued...
 Quoting: Salt


Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away <<<-------WRONG!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1448058


Don't you just love it when people post "Wrong" as if that is the answer to everything. No scripture or thought out arguments. Just "Wrong"
Lisa*Lisa

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09/05/2012 04:16 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Why don't you just print the whole god damn bible why don't ya?? Do you honestly believe anyone will read all the crap you've posted?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18544032


anybody who comes along and says they heard personally from God and has a message... suspect and most likely false.
 Quoting: Salt


I hear from God, and He does give me messages. I guess by your definition i'm a false prophet and evil.

How sad.

Bye.
Have You Accepted Jesus As Your Savior Yet? What Are You Waiting For? Do you have questions about God or need someone to talk to? Email me at Lisalovesjesus7@gmail.com

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Life and Love
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09/05/2012 06:25 PM
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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
why do you refuse to read the analysis?

all of these questions are already answered there, clearly and precisely.
 Quoting: Salt


Because its a bunch of hooky, loosely connected bible verses based on same whacked out greek philosophy stand point. You're taking one verse and blowing it out of proportion in Corinthians and then taking other verses trying to back up your claim.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 7235197


Well, if you really want the scholarly, academic version (which I doubt), you may read these:

"The New Testament and the People of God," by N. T. Wright
"Jesus and the Victory of God," by N. T. Wright
"The Resurrection of the Son of God," by N. T. Wright

This three volume set totals about 2,500 pages and is written by one of the world's preeminent New Testament scholars.

And the conclusion is the same as the one OP has written: "Faith, hope, and love" endure into the Kingdom of God. The other things mentioned in 1 Cor 13 do not.

Last Edited by Life and Love on 09/05/2012 06:26 PM
Those who have more than enough should always be mindful of those who have less than enough.
SaltModerator (OP)
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09/05/2012 07:07 PM

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Re: All you need is FAITH, HOPE and LOVE to live pleasing to God. 7 times it's repeated. Prophecy, tongues & words of knowledge have passed away
Why don't you just print the whole god damn bible why don't ya?? Do you honestly believe anyone will read all the crap you've posted?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18544032


anybody who comes along and says they heard personally from God and has a message... suspect and most likely false.
 Quoting: Salt


I hear from God, and He does give me messages. I guess by your definition i'm a false prophet and evil.

How sad.

Bye.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


not personal messages. public messages.
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