THIS IS HUGE!!! Over a million protesters demand Catalonian independence from Spain

Freakin GLP, it is not a spam link. here try this one [link to www.dailymotion.com]

Good - give it to them.

The less centralized government the better.

Can you explain to someone outside Spain why they want independence exactly?

Not sure they would do better on their own than combined with Spain ... but alas Europe is filled with these small ethnic pockets everywhere and EACH of them at times rattles their particular cage wanting OUT of the larger combination that they are with.

Look at GB and Wales, Scotland, etc., they are ALL rattling the cage wanting "Independence".

Ditto the split in Belgium.

Soon the Muslims in the South of France will do the same ... until they realize that because of demographics they can get ALL of France.

The fracturing of Yugoslavia and the split of Czechoslovakia and the USSR are just recent examples of ethnic pockets splitting out from whole.

Spain may well be next ... alas it seems to be a European dynamic to split, combine, split, combine.

The short term issue is Catalunia feels that the crisis is wosening because of rising taxes mandated by the EU and Madrid.

They want their own sovereign tax agency.

Long term: long story - they have been fighting for decades and decades to become independent and now simply use the crisis as an excuse to gain popular support - and it is working.

interesting.

I actually think it is a good idea. Just split off Catalunia and maybe even make the provinces independent. That way you get states within the country.

Now simply print your own money too and viola.

There is civil war brewing here according to my grandpa.

One thing: If Catalunia goes then Basque is not far behind.

Remember ETA

"This doesn't come as a surprise, Catalonias' regional government is among the most two faced I know in Europe; they are Spanish when it suits them and separatist when they have to bear the same burden that the rest of the country.


They seem to think that they had nothing to do with the country's debt crisis and that they should be exempt from all forms of taxation increases the rest of the nation does. In the last decade Catalonia has isolated itself not only on a national scale but also on a international scale, for example, by eliminating the Spanish language from its entire education system, even universities.


Furthermore they have not invested in any form of long-term enterprises and the few of them that they have invested for the short-term have gone to sh** due to their sharp ultra-separatist attitudes.


They protest the rise of VAT and other similar taxes on highway tolls (tax increases that have affected the entire country) and then two weeks later their government officials declare that "The only bank Catalonia has is the government of Spain" (I kid you not) referring to their corresponding share of the expected bailout Spain might be receiving in the coming weeks, which they can claim should they require it.


It's been like this for years and Catalonia will not gain it's independence any time soon simply because it's not in their best interest and its politicians know this; their local government will continue to use the Spanish government as a political scapegoat for their own short-comings instead of assuming responsibilities like the rest of the country."

This is very true about the isolationism.

In Madrid businesses are desperatly looking to hire professionals that speak Catalan to do business with Catalunia and they are paying big bucks.

They simply refuse to communicate in Castellano (Spanish).

So it is getting worse. And as you say they will not get their independence they I fear my grandpa is right:

Civil war.

Disunity brings freedom.

Wow. Sounds very similar to our own beginings here in the United States.

Maybe you could understand it better if you remember Pau Casals speech at the UN in 1971, when they awarded him the UN Peace Medal:

"...Catalonia had the first democratic parliament, well before England did. And the first United Nations were in my country. At that time - the Eleventh Century - there was a meeting in Toluges - now France - to talk about peace, because in that epoch Catalans were already against, AGAINST war. That is why the United Nations, which works solely towards the peace ideal, is in my heart, because anything to do with peace goes straight to my heart..."

Catalonia is not isolating by eliminating the spanish language. You can live in Catalonia even if you only speak spanish, but we are protecting our own language (catalan) wich was banned and perseuted for decades.

Not for decades, but for centuries we've been pursuing our freedom. Every 9/11 we commemorate the final surrender of catalan troops on 1714. So we don't want to independize just because of the crisis, although it is true that this is helping more and more people to realise we can't go futher with spain. We can't collect our taxes, they do it and then they return a part to catalonia. From the past two years they have just not returned all that part and that's one of the reasons we now need a bailout. If we were independants we would not have that problem as to this day catalonia remains the most industrialized part of Spain, rivaled only by Euskadi (the basque country) and the region of madrid.

catalonia it's been allways an enterprising region in europe and, as an example of both caracteristics you seem to ignore in your post (enterprising and national identity), you can realise that we have our own internet domain (.cat) even when it can't refer to a territory (cause we are not independents... yet). We had to fight hard to get it.

Otherwise it's absolute false that madrid businesses need catalan interpreters to comunicate, neither they pay any cent for that. That's simply anticatalan propaganda. Is there someone with an IQ over 15 who could believe all that nonsense about people who refuse to comunicate or claiming for independence to avoid taxation increases?

All we want is that spain grants our right to decide for ourselves, but they don't let us do a referendum to decide where to remain or not in spain. We hope, this time, europe will them to grant it.

And if not, next time demonstration will be bigger.

United they stand, divided they fall.

Nope, this is one of the manipulative sentences that elites threaten people in order to control them via more centralized government system.

Even small countries such as Luxemburg can stand alone via good diplomacy.

Um... we're talking about Spain here, not a collection of nation states that have banded together to fight a world super power. No offense intended towards Spain. I honestly don't know anything about the conflict to be honest, but I would imagine that Catalonia would be able to trade on the world stage with just as much credibility as debt soaked Spain.

You are right OP: this IS HUGE!

But no one seemed to care about it yesterday:

Thread: Breaking: EURODOOM 1.5 Million Catalans march in Barcelona, demand independence and blame Spain for economic misery!

That's like California asking to succeed.

Catalonia is one of the wealthiest parts of Spain, its tax receipts subsidizing the poorer parts of the country. With Spain’s current economic crisis, many of the region’s residents feel that they can no longer afford to support

Source: [link to geocurrents.info]

You do realize that Luxembourg is one of the richest countries in the world?

Catalania is bankrupt

In all fairness, it's Spain's draining economy doing this.

I wonder how Catalonians feel about the ETA method..

It all comes apart at the seams.. when the money runs out.. Same everywhere..

I didnt know that thx for info :)

Ok lets says the people do want independence. How do they go about getting this? Political vote? I can't picture politicians in other parts of Spain wanting to give away independence but I don't know the political climate in Spain. If they can't get it through diplomatic means they aren't serious or strong enough to threaten civil war are they?

that statement isn't particularly true.

to bad the EURO BANKERS WILL NEVER EVER LET SPAIN OUT!

I kind of expected this. I don't know anything whatsoever about Catalonia, but I noticed my DVD's often have separate captions and/or voice tracks for regular Spanish and Catalan Spanish.

Not a good sign...

The situation reminds me a little about Yugoslavia, the former "nation" composed by several different ethnic groups that could only be held together by a dictator. Spain has a fascist history as well, probably for the same reason: to hold together what doesn't want to be held together.

That's my take on the situation anyway. Isn't the human brain amazing - always able to extrapolate firm opinions on any subject out of almost zero knowledge!

What people outside of Spain don't understand is that Spain is NOT a homogeneous country they are different languages and cultures in Spain they speak Catalan, Gellego, Portuguese, Castellano

This^^^^^

The can is rolling towards the edge of the cliff

good but do they have enough nuclear weapoins and submarines