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Should it be illegal to spank your child ?

 
Anonymous Coward
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United States
09/23/2012 01:58 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
I don't spank my kids.

But It is nobody else business.
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 02:05 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
i dont believe in hitting my kids. i dont believe it solves a thing.

i get thru to my kids via other options - that work.

you dont get respect by force. respect is earned.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


you.....have kids? damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24276807
MuzzleBreak

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09/23/2012 02:15 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
Some children require corporal punishment when young(not infants)--I preferred little limber switches or a newspaper. Otherwise, you might have to break their kneecaps to get their attention as teenagers.

Last Edited by MuzzleBreak on 09/23/2012 02:16 PM
In his book, "Between Two Ages," Brzezinski wrote: "The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values."

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Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 02:24 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
One side if the argument is no, because it teaches them respect.
The other side is that it is child abuse and it cause mental illness.

Do you think spanking should be illegal? Were you spanked as a child? Do you hate your parents for spanking you?
Was spanking allowed in school?

Were you affected mentally? Please explain?
 Quoting: Orobllam


For a toddler maybe, a few swats on bottom when they bite people, but no kid over five.
BlondeDramaQueen

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09/23/2012 02:24 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
i dont believe in hitting my kids. i dont believe it solves a thing.

i get thru to my kids via other options - that work.

you dont get respect by force. respect is earned.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn




That is so true. I never even had to spank my children, because it hurt them enough if I would be just be upset with them. I always told them why I was upset and that is was'nt them I was directing this, but what they did that was wrong and why it was wrong.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10750949


ive worked with abused kids for over 19 yrs - i could never hurt a kid.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


I think there's a difference between "abused children" and spanking.
The main thing with spanking in kids under 5 is the embarrassment factor. Usually when a child is "spanked" it's not very hard, but from ages 2-4 a childs ego is at the highest it will be in their whole life and being embarrassed is the best form of punishment.
Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 02:27 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
I voted no. But the problem is stupid fuks that abuse it. I had a principal actually use a shaved full size baseball bat. Fucker knocked me over his desk, and broke so many blood vessels, I may have had a stroke because of it. Fucker.
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 02:29 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
Spare the rod and spoil the child.
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 02:32 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
a friend of mine literally sold one of his father's cars without his permission :). He's 22. how do you beat your 22 year old son who's bigger than you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6935981


First........... why is he still at home? Second, kick his ass out into the big bad world. Honestly, parents and their attitudes are why so many these days are nothing but petulant spoiled wimps.
CtYankee

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09/23/2012 02:37 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
spare the rod, spoil the child.
 Quoting: Petrus


Or in my daughters case...the wooden spoon....at about a year old and only when wearing diapers ....we used a wooden spoon placed squarely on the diaper.....NEVER any direct contact....within about a month....all we had to do is get the "wooden spoon" out and instant quiet....worked till she was old enough to "reason " with
CtYankee

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Never met anyone important enough to lie to.....
waterman

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09/23/2012 02:41 PM

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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
when did the doctors stop spanking the newborns?

Last Edited by waterman on 09/23/2012 02:41 PM
Heed the warning or endure the mourning
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 03:01 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
It is NOT child abuse and it does NOT cause mental illness if done properly - never while angry, never with any object other then an open palm, never hard enough to cause bruising, etc.
Kids can and do learn how to behave with the help of a swat on the bottom or hand every now and then.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5240732


Totally.
 Quoting: INK3


Ya'll are sick and stupid.

Dat'll teach em'!

Like the child gets the point - oh they get the point alright!

Dumbasses
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 03:03 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
I can't imagine ever hitting my child. She is now a teen and is quite respectful, mature and responsible.

I don't feel it's my place to tell other people how to raise their kids though.
Desert FoxModerator
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09/23/2012 03:05 PM

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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
a friend of mine literally sold one of his father's cars without his permission :). He's 22. how do you beat your 22 year old son who's bigger than you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6935981


Put his ass in jail after clubbing him up side the head with your fist.
TOMABANEFOX
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 03:13 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
a friend of mine literally sold one of his father's cars without his permission :). He's 22. how do you beat your 22 year old son who's bigger than you?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6935981


Put his ass in jail after clubbing him up side the head with your fist.
 Quoting: Desert Fox


You got it ass backward.

The father should be in jail for raising an asshole for society like this.
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 03:20 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
....causes mental ilnesss....

gimme a fucking break.
-GLP-Christian-
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09/23/2012 03:35 PM

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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
No.

In my country it is illegal and the kids are out of control, they're bonkers nowadays.

[link to www.av1611.org]
Rawfox

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09/23/2012 03:46 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
One side if the argument is no, because it teaches them respect.
The other side is that it is child abuse and it cause mental illness.

Do you think spanking should be illegal? Were you spanked as a child? Do you hate your parents for spanking you?
Was spanking allowed in school?

Were you affected mentally? Please explain?
 Quoting: Orobllam


for the 12% that voted yes:

YOU ARE A BUNCH OF UNEDUCATED CAVEMAN

Should i caught you being violent against a kid, prepare for my impact then.

Spanking is conditioning, it works with every painable being.
Humans can learn in other ways, especially kids, but that needs a teacher that has half a way of a brain - you morons dont get it anyways, so let sum it up:

you hurt a kid, i come for you.
My rights trump your fucked thinking. - Trinity
vege22o

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09/23/2012 03:49 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
In my oppinion kids these days are: lazy, disrespectful, no-work ethic, and not accountable for there actions
The causes of these behaviors is the fact that you cant dissipline your own kid anymore because you risk child services and other punishment, the schooling system is changing to a zero policy which means that they pass even when they dont hand in assignments/test or if they get low marks, meaning that the students wont care because whats the point if they just pass you anyway? Also everyone gets a medal in a race, wth is that going to teach?
The media/entertainment business, what i watched growing up that was rated R or 18+ is in todays standards a rated 14+. The same goes for video games. Its become what is "socialy acceptable" which needs to be changed or else the drug users and juvinal criminals will just keep getting younger and younger, as well as how young pre-meditated sex will be.
Think about it, look at how thing where when you where growing up and what has changed besides picture quality.

So in closing, fuck ya they should be spanked
Today, more than ever before, life must be characterized by a sense of universal responsobility, not only nation to nation, and human to human, but also human to other forms of life - Dalai Lama
Shurrie

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09/23/2012 03:59 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
This argument is a never ending one it seems!
The ones who say NO to spankings come from two categories-

1-they were truly abused

2-have been brain-washed by the 'CPS' chumps that come into the public schools and tell our kids that any kind of physical contact-hugs/touch/spanking is abuse and that if their parents do this without their consent they are being abused!


The ones who say YES to spankings also come from two categories-

1-those who were properly disciplined as a child, made to understand WHY they were getting a swat/time-out etc...

2-those who are to impatient to understand their child and would rather spank them then actually evaluate the situation (as seen by those who would call their kids little brats, etc....if that is how you see your child, the fault of their 'BRAT' behavior is yours!)

I have 3 kids
My oldest never needed a spanking
My middle spanking/timeout/putting everything on the roof and considering bubble wrap-body guard-24/7 personal attendant ---that kids was/is a live wire of go! Everything was exciting and a must try!! You could say "hot-please don't touch" to "don't touch" to 'NO" as much as you pleased--even tried the distraction method HAHAHAHAAA not that one--nope, that lovely ball of energy and curiosity would have set killed herself, just to prove whether or not what you said was true! and as an adult she is STILL pushing that curiosity button right up to deaths door! A swat on the butt or hand did no kill her spirit nor increase her rebellion! She was BORN a dare-devil and will always push that limit--at least I can say, a swat on the butt kept her out of the street and stove, dryer, drainage ditch...sure didn't keep her out of the tree, that she knew she was NOT to climb, thank goodness she only broke her arm and gave herself a concussion, because the fall she took should have killed her!

My 3rd- spanking didn't work! She had the lungs and wail of a Banshee! Just looking at her in disapproval could set off a two hr screaming wail fest!!! A cup of cold water to the face could stop it in 2 sec.
If you think that is mean--its all good-you never dealt with that kind of brain shattering scream at 3AM- from birth until 4yrs old- that child slept at 15 to 10 min intervals--
She still has an amazing temper! But now that she is older, and I have learned how to stop the Banshee Wail before it ever gets started..we don't have our brains shattered! Now we are trying to curb the 'abusive' mouth -- because, the CPS drones told her that WE as parents could NOT discipline her or we would go to jail--so she figured she could tell US how it was/ is going to be and that SHE was going to do WHAT EVER SHE WANTS!

Now if you are still reading this, here's a true event that happened with my second child (the Dare-devil)..At 14yrs old, she was arrested for domestic violence (she did not understand that SHE could NOT assault me and that a weapon is anything used to inflict bodily harm/or kill someone-because she was told by these CPS thugs only the grown-ups would get in-trouble---she was raised in a non-violent home, no drugs or drunkards, no stealing or illegal acivity going on etc...the only people telling her to disobey were the CPS thugs that come into the schools), while were stood infront of the Judge, she admitted that she did the things she did because SHE wanted to do what ever SHE wanted to do and was tired of being told NO by her parents! The Judge she had to obey Us, her parents, then--and I kid you not--the Judge told me to take my daughter home and start disciplining her! When I asked what I could do LEGALLY to discipline her, the Judge said and I quote "BE A PARENT"! I asked what she(the judge) thought I had been doing the past 14yrs and how I could discipline my child when-timeout was against the law-I can not force her into a chair, when putting soap in her foul mouth could kill her, I could not force her to stay in her room, that is considered holding her hostage and I would have to physically force her, no longer can you seal up windows to prevent your child from leaving through them/or someone sneaking in (child endangerment and hostage) and yep a PARENT IS CONSIDERED ABUSIVE if they spank their child or slap their foul mouth...the Judge looked at me and told me to figure it out!
Then she ordered a counselor to come counsel me, because I was questionable--That's what the 3 different counselors who came to the house told me...and they all concluded I was sane, my daughter was out of control and truly a harm to herself and NONE OF THEM had a better solution to the problem then me! ALL 3 said they could NOT have did a better job with a child like mine and they could not believe that I was so patient with her! and understanding as to WHO she was, despite the fact that she was a danger to me, at that time. That I was there, loving her and guiding her, as best I could. AND still made time and created a buffer for the other children!! None of them had ever met a parent who understood that each of their children where different people and personalities, and needed to be dealt with and raised accordingly. That was in their reports to the court and ALL 3 told the judge that the problem was NOT the parents in the home, but the CHILDS refusal to be parented!

and there are those children out there (just born that way) and the CPS thugs who use their childhood trauma of abuse to punish ALL parents- do more harm then good! Because NOT everyone enjoys and gets an EGO kick out of disciplining their children! DISCIPLINE is how you teach your children to be AMAZING ADULTS!

That same 14yr old is now grown-joined the military-is now a working, functional, contributing citizen! Still lives on the edge and pushes the limits of life--has had her share of ups and downs as an adult--BUT TAKES FULL RESPONSIBILITY for HER LIFE CHOICES!!! and blames NO ONE when she screws up and THANKS and APPRECIATES those who help her! She feeds the homeless and organizes events to raise money for Children Charities (including Child Abuse).
Spinning on the Pause...Rewind
j994k

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09/23/2012 04:16 PM

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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
My pops was a hard man. He was a high ranking NCO in the US Army. He used to whoop my ass when I did wrong.

It made me do right, or not get caught. I raised my own son with spanking. It was never abuse. A little corporal punishment goes a ling way.

My dad and I have a great relationship, and my son and I talk every day while he is away at college. You can tell now when kids are allowed to just run wild. They have no respect, and don't get spanked. These kids seem to take this to adulthood.

In the workplace you can tell which people took an ass whooping or two as a kid, and the ones that didn't.

Thanks Dad, you did good!
That is all...
Veresanctus

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09/23/2012 04:18 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
i dont believe in hitting my kids. i dont believe it solves a thing.

i get thru to my kids via other options - that work.

you dont get respect by force. respect is earned.
 Quoting: Phennommennonn


Why do you think the book of wisdom says that if you spare the rod you will SPOIL the child? What does that mean to spoil a child? You should think hard on that one!

I honestly think those that are against "spanking" are naive and probably spoiled themselves and think that you can actually negotiate with a 1 year old. Trust me you can't!

The only thing that can make a child take what you are trying to teach them seriously is through FEAR (look up fear in the dictionary if your view of it in this context is skewed). Think about it, how else do you get someone to take you seriously? The seriousness of the message usually needs to be accompanied with seriousness that specifically strikes the person who needs it.

The whole purpose is to teach and instruct and to get the child to realize the importance of whatever it is you are trying to teach them.

It's one thing to use your child as a punching bag just because you are angry or annoyed etc. (child "ABUSE"). It's an entirely different issue when you are trying to HELP them by teaching them discipline and right and wrong etc. so that when they grow up they can function in a civilized society being a respectable person who loves and does good and eschews evil.

Unfortunately the world has become so corrupt and so evil that people let their children do whatever they want so in the end they become spoiled and reject authority and commit evil left and right seeking pleasure instead of righteousness.

I have noticed in my lifetime that those children that are allowed to do whatever they wanted (unless it annoys their parents of course) grow up always getting into trouble and usually end up in prison and/or jail etc.

Last Edited by Veresanctus on 09/23/2012 04:21 PM
GET SAVED: Thread: Are you SAVED from DAMNATION?

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." -- Galatians 5:14-26
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 04:18 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
LOL!!

Look at all the hillbilly, redneck, sister fuckers who are okay with hitting a child!

ANYONE who hits a child is a FUCKING PUSSY, and should be in prison.

You fucking Repukes are disgusting.
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 04:19 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
Hitting is for the dumb and weak.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5854115


applause2
Esoteric Morgan
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09/23/2012 04:21 PM

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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
I remember when I was a kid and we got the "LOOK" whenever we were out. That is all it took and trust me we never wanted that "LOOK".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1211168


the "LOOK"... I forgot that one. That's how my older son describes one of my parenting methods.

Good one!
Shovelhead

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09/23/2012 04:21 PM

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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
One side if the argument is no, because it teaches them respect.
The other side is that it is child abuse and it cause mental illness.

Do you think spanking should be illegal? Were you spanked as a child? Do you hate your parents for spanking you?
Was spanking allowed in school?

Were you affected mentally? Please explain?
 Quoting: Orobllam




As a child, I was beat for bad grades, or simply having my hand on the door handle of the old 4 door plymouth, had to gather my own switch which my stepfather wore out on my back side, had the switch not been adequate enough for the infraction, he would gather one of his choosing, and continue my education.

I am in my early 60's have never been arrested, don't do drugs, but do enjoy a few stiff drinks from time to time. I suppose there is a good argument on both sides of the spectrum. None the less, i learned right from wrong and what was acceptable behavior, and what was not.

Last Edited by Shovelhead on 09/23/2012 04:23 PM
For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

THERE= a place. not here - THEIR= belongs to them - THEY'RE = short for "They Are". THEN = a point in time; not now. - THAN = used to compare things.
-If you tried 4 times to move forward, it was the FOURTH time you went FORTH! ---Something AFFECTS you. You have an EFFECT on something
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If something is LOOSE you might LOSE it. Your=belongs to "you" You're short for "you are"
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Glipski

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09/23/2012 04:22 PM

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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
One side if the argument is no, because it teaches them respect.
The other side is that it is child abuse and it cause mental illness.

Do you think spanking should be illegal? Were you spanked as a child? Do you hate your parents for spanking you?
Was spanking allowed in school?

Were you affected mentally? Please explain?
 Quoting: Orobllam


for the 12% that voted yes:

YOU ARE A BUNCH OF UNEDUCATED CAVEMAN

Should i caught you being violent against a kid, prepare for my impact then.

Spanking is conditioning, it works with every painable being.
Humans can learn in other ways, especially kids, but that needs a teacher that has half a way of a brain - you morons dont get it anyways, so let sum it up:

you hurt a kid, i come for you.
 Quoting: Rawfox


So from your response, one can conclude that you in fact advocate using violence as a method for conditioning unacceptable behavior? If someone does something you personally disagree with, spanking a child, then you will react with violence to condition them to not do it anymore lest they suffer your impact?

Fucking liberals...you are always so fast to condemn others actions that don't align with your beliefs and then when they don't concede to your line of thinking, you resort to violence to get your way. Pot, meet kettle...
Veresanctus

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09/23/2012 04:22 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
LOL!!

Look at all the hillbilly, redneck, sister fuckers who are okay with hitting a child!

ANYONE who hits a child is a FUCKING PUSSY, and should be in prison.

You fucking Repukes are disgusting.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24300943


I see how being spanked has helped you, just look at the wonderful language you spew

/sarcasm
GET SAVED: Thread: Are you SAVED from DAMNATION?

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." -- Galatians 5:14-26
Anonymous Coward
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United States
09/23/2012 04:23 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
One side if the argument is no, because it teaches them respect.
The other side is that it is child abuse and it cause mental illness.

Do you think spanking should be illegal? Were you spanked as a child? Do you hate your parents for spanking you?
Was spanking allowed in school?

Were you affected mentally? Please explain?
 Quoting: Orobllam




As a child, I was beat for bad grades, or simply having my hand on the door handle of the old 4 door plymouth, had to gather my own switch which my stepfather wear out on my back side, had the switch not been adequate enough for the infraction, he would gather one of his choosing, and continue my education.

I am in my early 60's have never been arrested, don't do drugs, but do enjoy a few stiff drinks from time to time. I suppose there is a good argument on both sides of the spectrum. None the less, i learned right from wrong and what was acceptable behavior, and what was not.
 Quoting: Shovelhead


If you needed to be hit to learn right from wrong, then you sir, were a very stupid child.
Anonymous Coward
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09/23/2012 04:24 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
LOL!!

Look at all the hillbilly, redneck, sister fuckers who are okay with hitting a child!

ANYONE who hits a child is a FUCKING PUSSY, and should be in prison.

You fucking Repukes are disgusting.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24300943


I see how being spanked has helped you, just look at the wonderful language you spew

/sarcasm
 Quoting: Veresanctus


LOL...on an anon forum, who gives a FUCK?

I can speak like a scholar as well, if the situation presents itself.

So, are you a sister fucker, child beater?
Veresanctus

User ID: 3680046
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09/23/2012 04:26 PM
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Re: Should it be illegal to spank your child ?
One side if the argument is no, because it teaches them respect.
The other side is that it is child abuse and it cause mental illness.

Do you think spanking should be illegal? Were you spanked as a child? Do you hate your parents for spanking you?
Was spanking allowed in school?

Were you affected mentally? Please explain?
 Quoting: Orobllam




As a child, I was beat for bad grades, or simply having my hand on the door handle of the old 4 door plymouth, had to gather my own switch which my stepfather wear out on my back side, had the switch not been adequate enough for the infraction, he would gather one of his choosing, and continue my education.

I am in my early 60's have never been arrested, don't do drugs, but do enjoy a few stiff drinks from time to time. I suppose there is a good argument on both sides of the spectrum. None the less, i learned right from wrong and what was acceptable behavior, and what was not.
 Quoting: Shovelhead


If you needed to be hit to learn right from wrong, then you sir, were a very stupid child.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24300943


Did you not know that children are actually born stupid?

I mean, why do they go to school if they aren't?

You should also know that 1 year olds do NOT understand English either. SO if you can tell them something you must show them.

Last Edited by Veresanctus on 09/23/2012 04:29 PM
GET SAVED: Thread: Are you SAVED from DAMNATION?

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another." -- Galatians 5:14-26

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