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LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.

 
*Heisenberg* (OP)

User ID: 21948600
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10/01/2012 07:13 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
Then I guess at this point we just agree to disagree.

cheers
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


Holy crap! That's not very clever!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


I wasn't trying to be clever?

1dunno1
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


I totally agree! Too bad..
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


Too bad what? You have totally lost me now. You went off into left field man...
Jericho9

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10/01/2012 07:14 PM

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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
There are a million and one problems in this country right now. In my opinion, the biggest issue is the shrinking middle class. The massive transfer of wealth from the middle to the top.

I think this is something both Democrats and Republicans can agree on. The reason there is such division is because each side has their own ideas of why it is happening, and what should be done to stop it from happening.

The left says de regulation from Republicans, let Wall St. do what they want and they made bad loans then bet against them. Which is partially true...banks did make loans and bet against them. Their solution, Regulate the shit out of everything they do. Have government constantly over their shoulder. Also more of what they call "consumer protection".


The Right generally likes to put a lot of blame on Fannie and Freddie and Barney Frank. While also acknowledging that banks made these risky loans. Which is partially true, right before the collapse Barney Frank was telling everyone how safe and secure Frannie and Freddie were. Their solution, De regulate Wall St. again. Let the markets work, and if they make bad loans and they get into trouble, let them fail. That the markets will correct themselves.

Either way, when this collapse happened, it sucked trillions from our economy. Who took the hardest hit? The middle class. There was a large transfer of wealth from the middle class to the uber rich.

The banks got a taxpayer bailout, and they also got the houses that people defaulted on.

So, what can we do to get the middle class back? Again there are different solutions on each side of the political spectrum.

In my opinion, the collapse, and disappearance of the middle class are both directly linked to The Federal Reserve. When you artificially keep interest rates low, you create bubbles. Like the housing bubble we saw pop in 08'.

When your currency is devalued, that is a tax on the people. When your money no longer purchases what it used to, that is a tax on the people. When 50 yrs ago, a man could choose to not go to college, and go straight to work, work one job and still provide for his family, then 50 yrs later that same job doesn't even pay the rent......that's not a democrat or republican problem...that's a currency problem.

To me, if we just ended The Fed, had our own congressional issued currency.....that would solve 80% of our problems instantly.

There are still other factors, like China keeping the value of their currency down...certain "trade agreements" that do us no good, only harm. Stagnant wages while inflation is not stagnant...

But all these B.S side issues like, should we raise taxes on the rich? Should we cut certain departments of the Government? Who should pay income tax and who shouldn't? Should we have a fair tax? These are all side issues that derive directly from the problems caused by the federal reserve. Which is just my opinion.

What is your opinion on the shrinking middle class? The transfer of wealth? What can be done to bring back our middle class?
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


You are dead on with what you are seeing. As written by Karl Marx...everyone read the Communist Manifesto. The middle class has to go to creat a true dictatorship. IF we let it happen. I for one will not.
 Quoting: Jericho9


I have never read The Communist Manifesto....does it really talk about getting rid of the middle class? That's crazy...
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


Yes sir it does.
*Heisenberg* (OP)

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10/01/2012 07:15 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
There are a million and one problems in this country right now. In my opinion, the biggest issue is the shrinking middle class. The massive transfer of wealth from the middle to the top.

I think this is something both Democrats and Republicans can agree on. The reason there is such division is because each side has their own ideas of why it is happening, and what should be done to stop it from happening.

The left says de regulation from Republicans, let Wall St. do what they want and they made bad loans then bet against them. Which is partially true...banks did make loans and bet against them. Their solution, Regulate the shit out of everything they do. Have government constantly over their shoulder. Also more of what they call "consumer protection".


The Right generally likes to put a lot of blame on Fannie and Freddie and Barney Frank. While also acknowledging that banks made these risky loans. Which is partially true, right before the collapse Barney Frank was telling everyone how safe and secure Frannie and Freddie were. Their solution, De regulate Wall St. again. Let the markets work, and if they make bad loans and they get into trouble, let them fail. That the markets will correct themselves.

Either way, when this collapse happened, it sucked trillions from our economy. Who took the hardest hit? The middle class. There was a large transfer of wealth from the middle class to the uber rich.

The banks got a taxpayer bailout, and they also got the houses that people defaulted on.

So, what can we do to get the middle class back? Again there are different solutions on each side of the political spectrum.

In my opinion, the collapse, and disappearance of the middle class are both directly linked to The Federal Reserve. When you artificially keep interest rates low, you create bubbles. Like the housing bubble we saw pop in 08'.

When your currency is devalued, that is a tax on the people. When your money no longer purchases what it used to, that is a tax on the people. When 50 yrs ago, a man could choose to not go to college, and go straight to work, work one job and still provide for his family, then 50 yrs later that same job doesn't even pay the rent......that's not a democrat or republican problem...that's a currency problem.

To me, if we just ended The Fed, had our own congressional issued currency.....that would solve 80% of our problems instantly.

There are still other factors, like China keeping the value of their currency down...certain "trade agreements" that do us no good, only harm. Stagnant wages while inflation is not stagnant...

But all these B.S side issues like, should we raise taxes on the rich? Should we cut certain departments of the Government? Who should pay income tax and who shouldn't? Should we have a fair tax? These are all side issues that derive directly from the problems caused by the federal reserve. Which is just my opinion.

What is your opinion on the shrinking middle class? The transfer of wealth? What can be done to bring back our middle class?
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


You are dead on with what you are seeing. As written by Karl Marx...everyone read the Communist Manifesto. The middle class has to go to creat a true dictatorship. IF we let it happen. I for one will not.
 Quoting: Jericho9


I have never read The Communist Manifesto....does it really talk about getting rid of the middle class? That's crazy...
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


Yes sir it does.
 Quoting: Jericho9


I should check it out. Thanks for the info!
Jericho9

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10/01/2012 07:16 PM

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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
It's simple really.

The west has been forced by itself to compete to SE-Asia on wages through "the holy grail of free trade".

Which means higher profit margins for the companies and higher pay for the rich but a "normal" working guy will make less.

What then ultimately ends up happening is that the "normal" guy can't afford jack shit anymore while the rich can afford even more.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


Wages is nothing, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of business. Here's the fucking clue you dumb fuck idiot. It takes me 24 hours to start a business in Asia, whereas in Europe and the US, it will take me months to even a year to get a business going after all the paper works, zoning, planning department, state inspections, local inspections, fire inspection, then all the workers protection bullshit everyone has to follow through. And the worst of it, if my business didn't do well in the US, I'm fucked, I have only ONE chance or I'm in heavy debt because of all the regulatory fees I had to pay. Meanwhile in Asia, I can try 1000 times until I get something without worrying about being in debt.

And that there is the fucking reason why entrepreneurs move to Asia and why so many jobs end up in Asia.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 846701


Good stuff. Accurate AND I felt it.
Copernica

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10/01/2012 07:18 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
I keep seeing how people have become lazier - but I don't think that's the case. I think it's our definition of "lazy" that has changed.

People used to work 9 to 5 - with an hour for lunch, a 15 minute break at 10 and at 2, and they got paid for 8 hours of work. Now it's 9 - 6 and you don't get paid for lunch. Or it's to 5:30 and you only get a 1/2 hr lunch break - theoretically, you should be getting the 2 breaks paid. If you get the hour lunch - you'll find they put the 2 15 minute breaks in for the 2nd 1/2 hour, and now they don't have to pay for them. Companies quietly got an extra hour of work and saved themselves a boat load of money.

People used to get a job at a company and expected to stay there for their entire careers. This meant they were more dedicated and they cared. Companies started "downsizing" and removed their higher paid older employees. Companies cut back raises and bonuses. Stay some place more than 5 years - and you'd find yourself underpaid. The result is, no one actually cares or takes pride in being a part of the company. They know they'll be gone soon. With this new turnover cycle - no one has the experience or knowledge to pass on to the next generation. Companies lose all the "lessons learned" and wind up repeating costly mistakes time and time again. Employees can no longer feel secure in their jobs, so they don't give as much of themselves as they used to.

At the same time, companies are pushing people harder and harder. Move people from hourly to salary, then pour more work on them until their having to work 50 to 60 hours a week. You now have 2 employees doing the same work that 3 or 4 people used to do...and the company isn't paying overtime at all. This is really where many of the jobs have gone.

Now back to lazy - if someone actually only wants to work 8 hours a day for a decent middle-class salary...we call them lazy. Many people are just too young to realize how much the work place has changed in just 20 years.

We complain about how people are too lazy to pay attention to the real news and we whine about how people don't care about anything except themselves. We holler about all the fast food and quick boxed foods people are stuffing their faces with. We get angry at people that have grown fat. Etc. Etc. Etc.

The truth is - most people are just too damn tired after working 10 -12 hours a day, then coming home to take care of the kids and the housework. There's no time to shop for or cook healthy meals. There's no time for the kids to go outside and play a game of catch with mom or dad. Even if you can find extra time...people are just too frackin' tired. Their brains are tired and that makes a body tired too. The cycle is near impossible to break. The longer you're on the hamster wheel, the worse it gets.

The system is broken. With the ways things are now, the middle class is becoming the working poor. Each year, we're working harder for less.

Then there are the unemployed - another group of people who have been screwed by the actions of the corporations and stock markets, etc.. Contrary to popular opinion, most people really do want to work. Jobs give people a sense of purpose and are important to their mental health. But it's hard to get ANY job, much less one that pays enough to live on.

So in the end - something has to be done to fix this mess. As painful as it would be, the only solution I see is that everything needs to just collapse. Rebuilding from scratch seems to be fastest way up.
Anonymous Coward
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10/01/2012 07:23 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
And to lay out my opinion buffet..

I think part of the reason for TDMC is, in adding to Smokahontas' post, where we've evolved to in society as a whole within the microcosm of the U.S. -- and, frankly, in countries and cultures that "mimic" our social way of life.

Greed, entitlement, consumerism, laziness and fast food instant-gratification ways of approaching our lives are the psychological factors, and have become the lowered-bar norm.

I am from the middle class generation. We weren't rich, we weren't poor, my parents had an average home and 2 inexpensive cars, and always had food on the table. I worked in HS, all my peers worked in HS and we used that money to buy the things our parents didn't furnish, or to put a tank of gas back into their car we borrowed - because no one bought us a car. We didn't get $150 jeans when it came to buying back to school clothes, or $150 tennis shoes. We got $25 jeans from the Gap and some shirts. If I wanted a Polo, I bought it. If I went to the movies with buddies, I paid my way. I had no allowance. In college, I paid for my tuition, my books, my food, entertainment, etc. either via a student loan (that I worked to pay back in later years), or via the 2 jobs I had in college. What that did was teach my peers and I to appreciate and value what we obtained.

But today...

You rarely see the average young person working a job in high school, nor working their way though college, and taking any job they can get right out of college.

You see people driving BMW's and Lexus', and any other $50K car they can buy or lease to impress others and because they think they deserve it. Sure, I've worked hard all my life, but do I really deserve that much of a vehicle? Do I need that much of a vehicle?

I overhear female co-workers talking about special-ordering $200 jeans, and hitting Nordstrom's every Saturday for the latest in fashion, and bragging about maxing out their credit cards. Why?

We live in an average neighborhood, in an average-priced home, yet see neighbors who we assume are of about the same household income as we have drive expensive cars, go out to eat every night, go to the movies, etc. and have someone else mow their lawns. Why?

At my company, they brag about more profit by sending jobs out to off-shore contractors, and hire slick execs from other states, when they could support the local economy? Why?

I think all the above has added to the economic downturn and shrinking middle class, but I mostly think it's about shrinking values. When did we become so shallow?
 Quoting: Writemeaticket Red
*Heisenberg* (OP)

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10/01/2012 07:28 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
It's simple really.

The west has been forced by itself to compete to SE-Asia on wages through "the holy grail of free trade".

Which means higher profit margins for the companies and higher pay for the rich but a "normal" working guy will make less.

What then ultimately ends up happening is that the "normal" guy can't afford jack shit anymore while the rich can afford even more.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22089462


Wages is nothing, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of business. Here's the fucking clue you dumb fuck idiot. It takes me 24 hours to start a business in Asia, whereas in Europe and the US, it will take me months to even a year to get a business going after all the paper works, zoning, planning department, state inspections, local inspections, fire inspection, then all the workers protection bullshit everyone has to follow through. And the worst of it, if my business didn't do well in the US, I'm fucked, I have only ONE chance or I'm in heavy debt because of all the regulatory fees I had to pay. Meanwhile in Asia, I can try 1000 times until I get something without worrying about being in debt.

And that there is the fucking reason why entrepreneurs move to Asia and why so many jobs end up in Asia.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 846701


Well said.

clappa
Anonymous Coward
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10/01/2012 07:29 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
There are a million and one problems in this country right now. In my opinion, the biggest issue is the shrinking middle class. The massive transfer of wealth from the middle to the top.

I think this is something both Democrats and Republicans can agree on. The reason there is such division is because each side has their own ideas of why it is happening, and what should be done to stop it from happening.

The left says de regulation from Republicans, let Wall St. do what they want and they made bad loans then bet against them. Which is partially true...banks did make loans and bet against them. Their solution, Regulate the shit out of everything they do. Have government constantly over their shoulder. Also more of what they call "consumer protection".


The Right generally likes to put a lot of blame on Fannie and Freddie and Barney Frank. While also acknowledging that banks made these risky loans. Which is partially true, right before the collapse Barney Frank was telling everyone how safe and secure Frannie and Freddie were. Their solution, De regulate Wall St. again. Let the markets work, and if they make bad loans and they get into trouble, let them fail. That the markets will correct themselves.

Either way, when this collapse happened, it sucked trillions from our economy. Who took the hardest hit? The middle class. There was a large transfer of wealth from the middle class to the uber rich.

The banks got a taxpayer bailout, and they also got the houses that people defaulted on.

So, what can we do to get the middle class back? Again there are different solutions on each side of the political spectrum.

In my opinion, the collapse, and disappearance of the middle class are both directly linked to The Federal Reserve. When you artificially keep interest rates low, you create bubbles. Like the housing bubble we saw pop in 08'.

When your currency is devalued, that is a tax on the people. When your money no longer purchases what it used to, that is a tax on the people. When 50 yrs ago, a man could choose to not go to college, and go straight to work, work one job and still provide for his family, then 50 yrs later that same job doesn't even pay the rent......that's not a democrat or republican problem...that's a currency problem.

To me, if we just ended The Fed, had our own congressional issued currency.....that would solve 80% of our problems instantly.

There are still other factors, like China keeping the value of their currency down...certain "trade agreements" that do us no good, only harm. Stagnant wages while inflation is not stagnant...

But all these B.S side issues like, should we raise taxes on the rich? Should we cut certain departments of the Government? Who should pay income tax and who shouldn't? Should we have a fair tax? These are all side issues that derive directly from the problems caused by the federal reserve. Which is just my opinion.

What is your opinion on the shrinking middle class? The transfer of wealth? What can be done to bring back our middle class?
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


You are dead on with what you are seeing. As written by Karl Marx...everyone read the Communist Manifesto. The middle class has to go to creat a true dictatorship. IF we let it happen. I for one will not.
 Quoting: Jericho9


You are correct, Only with 2 classes rich and poor. This is Obamas plan.
*Heisenberg* (OP)

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10/01/2012 07:31 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
I keep seeing how people have become lazier - but I don't think that's the case. I think it's our definition of "lazy" that has changed.

People used to work 9 to 5 - with an hour for lunch, a 15 minute break at 10 and at 2, and they got paid for 8 hours of work. Now it's 9 - 6 and you don't get paid for lunch. Or it's to 5:30 and you only get a 1/2 hr lunch break - theoretically, you should be getting the 2 breaks paid. If you get the hour lunch - you'll find they put the 2 15 minute breaks in for the 2nd 1/2 hour, and now they don't have to pay for them. Companies quietly got an extra hour of work and saved themselves a boat load of money.

People used to get a job at a company and expected to stay there for their entire careers. This meant they were more dedicated and they cared. Companies started "downsizing" and removed their higher paid older employees. Companies cut back raises and bonuses. Stay some place more than 5 years - and you'd find yourself underpaid. The result is, no one actually cares or takes pride in being a part of the company. They know they'll be gone soon. With this new turnover cycle - no one has the experience or knowledge to pass on to the next generation. Companies lose all the "lessons learned" and wind up repeating costly mistakes time and time again. Employees can no longer feel secure in their jobs, so they don't give as much of themselves as they used to.

At the same time, companies are pushing people harder and harder. Move people from hourly to salary, then pour more work on them until their having to work 50 to 60 hours a week. You now have 2 employees doing the same work that 3 or 4 people used to do...and the company isn't paying overtime at all. This is really where many of the jobs have gone.

Now back to lazy - if someone actually only wants to work 8 hours a day for a decent middle-class salary...we call them lazy. Many people are just too young to realize how much the work place has changed in just 20 years.

We complain about how people are too lazy to pay attention to the real news and we whine about how people don't care about anything except themselves. We holler about all the fast food and quick boxed foods people are stuffing their faces with. We get angry at people that have grown fat. Etc. Etc. Etc.

The truth is - most people are just too damn tired after working 10 -12 hours a day, then coming home to take care of the kids and the housework. There's no time to shop for or cook healthy meals. There's no time for the kids to go outside and play a game of catch with mom or dad. Even if you can find extra time...people are just too frackin' tired. Their brains are tired and that makes a body tired too. The cycle is near impossible to break. The longer you're on the hamster wheel, the worse it gets.

The system is broken. With the ways things are now, the middle class is becoming the working poor. Each year, we're working harder for less.

Then there are the unemployed - another group of people who have been screwed by the actions of the corporations and stock markets, etc.. Contrary to popular opinion, most people really do want to work. Jobs give people a sense of purpose and are important to their mental health. But it's hard to get ANY job, much less one that pays enough to live on.

So in the end - something has to be done to fix this mess. As painful as it would be, the only solution I see is that everything needs to just collapse. Rebuilding from scratch seems to be fastest way up.
 Quoting: Copernica


A lot of very good points.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. There is a lot in there I and I think most of us agree with.

hf
ANNONYMOUS
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10/01/2012 07:34 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
5a

Right,right and right H as far as you took it but you missed a couple of very important points. First although you touched on wages it should be noted that wages have failed miserably to keep up with the rate of inflation SINCE 1971. At the very same time we have undergone several periods where the economy was humming along at phenominal rates of growth. One would seem to be the antithesis of the other so how could this be? The answer is the huge expansion of CREDIT on all fronts (homes/autos/consumer goods in the form of credit cards). The public was persuaded that buy now and pay later was virtually the same as earned income. Which of course it is NOT. That is the reason the economy kept humming along expanding rapidly by economic standards. The result was inevitable. When people were overloaded and the bottom fell out 2008 it was all over. Only this time it was different the so called MIDDLE CLASS were the ones pulling the load and the first ones to go down.

It is interesting that the union members whose wages generally kept up with inflation and which actually accounted for the tremendous increase in the middle class were amongst the hardest hit. Especially given the huge anti union sentiment on this site.
*Heisenberg* (OP)

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10/01/2012 07:36 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
5a

Right,right and right H as far as you took it but you missed a couple of very important points. First although you touched on wages it should be noted that wages have failed miserably to keep up with the rate of inflation SINCE 1971. At the very same time we have undergone several periods where the economy was humming along at phenominal rates of growth. One would seem to be the antithesis of the other so how could this be? The answer is the huge expansion of CREDIT on all fronts (homes/autos/consumer goods in the form of credit cards). The public was persuaded that buy now and pay later was virtually the same as earned income. Which of course it is NOT. That is the reason the economy kept humming along expanding rapidly by economic standards. The result was inevitable. When people were overloaded and the bottom fell out 2008 it was all over. Only this time it was different the so called MIDDLE CLASS were the ones pulling the load and the first ones to go down.

It is interesting that the union members whose wages generally kept up with inflation and which actually accounted for the tremendous increase in the middle class were amongst the hardest hit. Especially given the huge anti union sentiment on this site.
 Quoting: ANNONYMOUS 8415236


ahhh Credit, you are right, I forgot to mention anything at all about credit.

Good catch and good addition.

cheers
*Heisenberg* (OP)

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10/01/2012 07:54 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
Thanks for all the replies everyone. This thread turned out to be a pretty good discussion. I am headin home for the evening, if anyone else replies, I will get back to ya tomorrow morning.

cheers
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10/01/2012 08:05 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
You are dead on with what you are seeing. As written by Karl Marx...everyone read the Communist Manifesto. The middle class has to go to creat a true dictatorship. IF we let it happen. I for one will not.
 Quoting: Jericho9


You are correct, Only with 2 classes rich and poor. This is Obamas plan.
 Quoting: sonic doom


That's not how Marx/Engels described their utopìa. No classes was the evolutionary end of history, if I remember. And definitely not a rich class -- the Communist and the Party would, they assumed, stay true to their ideals as the vanguard of the working class until the eventually "withering of the State". Marx/Engels never lived to see their theories implemented in practice -- he was the intellectual author, only...

And no, the present Corporate State kleptocracy isnt what they had in mind. Obama is a puppet of what Mussolini called corporatism..
davvi

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10/01/2012 08:19 PM

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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
It is generational... The Middle class are mostly baby boomers and older Gen X ers... The baby boomers told their children that they did not have to work as hard as they did, to go to college and get a degree, make good money buy a house... We did and got liberal arts degree's and are opposed to sweating to earn a living. Unions demanding more and more turned even the most idiotic G.M. worker into the middle class...Unable to replicate that pay anywhere else, and since the trade agreements we have closed 56,000 factories in ten years. Our numberone export is Trash Number two the dollar. Even if you brought back all the factories closed you would be hard pressed to get anyone to work in them. The Gen x and Millinuem generations are spoiled, lazy, dumbed down, complacient consumers...THey do not want to work hard, sweat or wear a uniform... they have been taught to feel entitled. There is no way to stop this collapse it is neccessary. The problem is americans think it wont happen here, which is what isures that it will.
 Quoting: smokahontas


do you really think that we are that far along that the only thing left is total collapse?

i am very glad that i will never have to look our founding fathers in the eye and explain how we let the finest experiment in the history of man go all to hell. what a damn shame.
There are three genders in the US, male, female and democrat. Democrat men are not really women, they just act like it.

I never give RED karma, only GREEN for great posters. If you give me red or green please leave your name, I like to say thank you...

Leftist Jews create anti-Semitism.


Krauthammer: "If Fences Don't Work, Why Is There One Around The White House?"
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10/01/2012 08:21 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
So you think we need an extreme dose of socialism/communism?
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


I don't agree that 'monetary normalization' (in the specific way defined above) is either. The amount of the distribution would be regulated by the Fed, or Congress, to maximize the value of the dollar.

Capitalism has produced many great things for this country and the world. I don't want to see that lost. And that would be major disruption to our way of life. Remember: 'small & gradual'.

As we all know, somewhere north of 50% of Americans already receive government payments. I'm simply arguing to make that number 100% and let those who want to work, and earn more, do so. Nothing would need change in anybody's life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1126441


hmm..you don't think that would give a huge blow to production in this country?

If people didn't HAVE to work....would they still?
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


Think about it. Some would, some wouldn't.

Who would? Probably those who already work hard, or would like to, in order to 'get ahead' right now (but can't because the economy sux). They would certainly want to do better than a 'keeps you alive' payment from the gov.

Who wouldn't? Probably those who already are on well fare in any of it's forms.

See? Not a big change, a very small one. But it's effect, on this capitalistic economy would be huge.
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10/01/2012 08:29 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The middle class wasnt recognized as a class by Marx or any other economist of the time -- during the 19thC their importance to our modern world was easily overlooked. And their relations to the bourgeoisie earned them the derisive term: petite bourgeoisie. The working class and their miserable working and living conditions during the Industrial Revolution is what most people could hardly avoid seeing. Therefore Marx did not postulate that the middle class must be destroyed before the inevitable workers revolution -- they were too small and irrelevant to even be considered.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1395875
United States
10/01/2012 08:45 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
Think about it. Some would, some wouldn't.

Who would? Probably those who already work hard, or would like to, in order to 'get ahead' right now (but can't because the economy sux). They would certainly want to do better than a 'keeps you alive' payment from the gov.

Who wouldn't? Probably those who already are on well fare in any of it's forms.

See? Not a big change, a very small one. But it's effect, on this capitalistic economy would be huge.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1395875


Another point to noodle on:

Foxconn is the largest electronics contract manufacturer in the world. Foxconn makes the iPhone for Apple. Foxconn has had problems with their workers committing suicide over the last few years. Their solution?

Foxconn has announced a major investment in automation (robotic assembly lines) over the next 2-3 years. This investment will have an immediate return. It will allow Foxconn to lay off 1,000,000 low-wage chinese workers.

In the end, productivity kills jobs...even for those who are willing to work for slave labor wages.

That's why I say the problem isn't economic (the iPhone 6 or 7 may even be cheaper and more plentiful as a result of this). The problem is the monetary system. The only good news I see is that the monetary system just needs a little 'tweaking' to actually make things better for all of us.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 23487446
United States
10/01/2012 08:57 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The average american has no idea what is in the constitution, that is why its so easy to toss it out.
 Quoting: smokahontas


This

the average american is a blithering tv addict 24/7
The Governor

User ID: 24750235
United States
10/01/2012 09:20 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The "Middle Class" has been the traditional enemy of the Communist insurgency, because it attempts to use Capitalism to its fullest extent, and it succeeds.

Obama and the Democrat Nazi Party know this, and are attempting to destroy the "Middle Class" so that it can't fight their Communist Utopian plan, just like every other Communist insurgency in history.
Welcome to Woodbury.

I think being a Democrat should be a felony.

[link to www.policymic.com]
The Governor

User ID: 24750235
United States
10/01/2012 09:20 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The average american has no idea what is in the constitution, that is why its so easy to toss it out.
 Quoting: smokahontas


This

the average american is a blithering tv addict 24/7
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23487446


And they can't use punctuation either.

1rof1
Welcome to Woodbury.

I think being a Democrat should be a felony.

[link to www.policymic.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1507912
United States
10/01/2012 09:24 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The Elite are flawed in their veiw, that too is human nature. I think it will be a mixture of 1984, and A Brave New World. To be in power too long will skew your contact with average people, third or fourth generations of the .01% are fruit loops and totally self interested. They think it is a given that they will retain power forever, but nothing last forever. They have controlled all the elections since at least 1861... the Rothschilds have controlled banking since 1697 and funded both sides of the Revolutionary war. We live in interesting times cause this is the culmination of all of it. Not enough food, water, natural resources for 7 billion and at the same time they are ready for all hell to break lose...they cant stop whats coming, they just want to control how it goes down.
 Quoting: smokahontas


Funny you mentioned the the books 1984 and a brave new world, I watched a hearing on cspan, where a republican woman from the house or senate and a democrat man that used both books as a reference while talking. The woman said that what was happening was right out of 1984 and said if they hadn't read it they need too, if they had they need to reread it, the man said, I read it a brave new world, too.
Never did get what the meeting was about, I think it was how the US heading.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24719572
Mexico
10/01/2012 09:38 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The "Middle Class" has been the traditional enemy of the Communist insurgency, because it attempts to use Capitalism to its fullest extent, and it succeeds.

Obama and the Democrat Nazi Party know this, and are attempting to destroy the "Middle Class" so that it can't fight their Communist Utopian plan, just like every other Communist insurgency in history.
 Quoting: The Governor


That is from your Manifesto...
The Governor

User ID: 24750235
United States
10/01/2012 09:42 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The "Middle Class" has been the traditional enemy of the Communist insurgency, because it attempts to use Capitalism to its fullest extent, and it succeeds.

Obama and the Democrat Nazi Party know this, and are attempting to destroy the "Middle Class" so that it can't fight their Communist Utopian plan, just like every other Communist insurgency in history.
 Quoting: The Governor


That is from your Manifesto...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


Yes it is.

The Individual Sovereignty Manifesto, you wetback fuck.
Welcome to Woodbury.

I think being a Democrat should be a felony.

[link to www.policymic.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24719572
Mexico
10/01/2012 09:46 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The "Middle Class" has been the traditional enemy of the Communist insurgency, because it attempts to use Capitalism to its fullest extent, and it succeeds.

Obama and the Democrat Nazi Party know this, and are attempting to destroy the "Middle Class" so that it can't fight their Communist Utopian plan, just like every other Communist insurgency in history.
 Quoting: The Governor


That is from your Manifesto...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


Yes it is.

The Individual Sovereignty Manifesto, you wetback fuck.
 Quoting: The Governor


Glad you cleared that up. The first line is "lie your fucking face off and see if the stupid sheep swallow it". Great contribution to humanity, NOT.
The Governor

User ID: 24750235
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10/01/2012 09:51 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
The "Middle Class" has been the traditional enemy of the Communist insurgency, because it attempts to use Capitalism to its fullest extent, and it succeeds.

Obama and the Democrat Nazi Party know this, and are attempting to destroy the "Middle Class" so that it can't fight their Communist Utopian plan, just like every other Communist insurgency in history.
 Quoting: The Governor


That is from your Manifesto...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


Yes it is.

The Individual Sovereignty Manifesto, you wetback fuck.
 Quoting: The Governor


Glad you cleared that up. The first line is "lie your fucking face off and see if the stupid sheep swallow it". Great contribution to humanity, NOT.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


Mow my lawn, and shut the fuck up, Pedro.
Welcome to Woodbury.

I think being a Democrat should be a felony.

[link to www.policymic.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24719572
Mexico
10/01/2012 09:57 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
...


That is from your Manifesto...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


Yes it is.

The Individual Sovereignty Manifesto, you wetback fuck.
 Quoting: The Governor


Glad you cleared that up. The first line is "lie your fucking face off and see if the stupid sheep swallow it". Great contribution to humanity, NOT.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24719572


Mow my lawn, and shut the fuck up, Pedro.
 Quoting: The Governor


Beat your wife much? "Mow my lawn", "wetback fuck", "shut the fuck up", LMAO. Better take your meds, guvnah.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 24771813
Japan
10/01/2012 09:57 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
I'd say about 80% of humanity needs to be gassed like bugs.
Nikola Tesla

User ID: 18230284
United States
10/01/2012 10:00 PM

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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
There are a million and one problems in this country right now. In my opinion, the biggest issue is the shrinking middle class. The massive transfer of wealth from the middle to the top.

I think this is something both Democrats and Republicans can agree on. The reason there is such division is because each side has their own ideas of why it is happening, and what should be done to stop it from happening.

The left says de regulation from Republicans, let Wall St. do what they want and they made bad loans then bet against them. Which is partially true...banks did make loans and bet against them. Their solution, Regulate the shit out of everything they do. Have government constantly over their shoulder. Also more of what they call "consumer protection".


The Right generally likes to put a lot of blame on Fannie and Freddie and Barney Frank. While also acknowledging that banks made these risky loans. Which is partially true, right before the collapse Barney Frank was telling everyone how safe and secure Frannie and Freddie were. Their solution, De regulate Wall St. again. Let the markets work, and if they make bad loans and they get into trouble, let them fail. That the markets will correct themselves.

Either way, when this collapse happened, it sucked trillions from our economy. Who took the hardest hit? The middle class. There was a large transfer of wealth from the middle class to the uber rich.

The banks got a taxpayer bailout, and they also got the houses that people defaulted on.

So, what can we do to get the middle class back? Again there are different solutions on each side of the political spectrum.

In my opinion, the collapse, and disappearance of the middle class are both directly linked to The Federal Reserve. When you artificially keep interest rates low, you create bubbles. Like the housing bubble we saw pop in 08'.

When your currency is devalued, that is a tax on the people. When your money no longer purchases what it used to, that is a tax on the people. When 50 yrs ago, a man could choose to not go to college, and go straight to work, work one job and still provide for his family, then 50 yrs later that same job doesn't even pay the rent......that's not a democrat or republican problem...that's a currency problem.

To me, if we just ended The Fed, had our own congressional issued currency.....that would solve 80% of our problems instantly.

There are still other factors, like China keeping the value of their currency down...certain "trade agreements" that do us no good, only harm. Stagnant wages while inflation is not stagnant...

But all these B.S side issues like, should we raise taxes on the rich? Should we cut certain departments of the Government? Who should pay income tax and who shouldn't? Should we have a fair tax? These are all side issues that derive directly from the problems caused by the federal reserve. Which is just my opinion.

What is your opinion on the shrinking middle class? The transfer of wealth? What can be done to bring back our middle class?
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


Hear Hear! Well stated.
Nikola Tesla

User ID: 18230284
United States
10/01/2012 10:02 PM

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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
It is generational... The Middle class are mostly baby boomers and older Gen X ers... The baby boomers told their children that they did not have to work as hard as they did, to go to college and get a degree, make good money buy a house... We did and got liberal arts degree's and are opposed to sweating to earn a living. Unions demanding more and more turned even the most idiotic G.M. worker into the middle class...Unable to replicate that pay anywhere else, and since the trade agreements we have closed 56,000 factories in ten years. Our numberone export is Trash Number two the dollar. Even if you brought back all the factories closed you would be hard pressed to get anyone to work in them. The Gen x and Millinuem generations are spoiled, lazy, dumbed down, complacient consumers...THey do not want to work hard, sweat or wear a uniform... they have been taught to feel entitled. There is no way to stop this collapse it is neccessary. The problem is americans think it wont happen here, which is what isures that it will.
 Quoting: smokahontas




Excellent post!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 8341836
United States
10/01/2012 10:15 PM
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Re: LET'S GET TO THE HEART OF THE MATTER, THE DISAPPEARING MIDDLE CLASS.
So you think we need an extreme dose of socialism/communism?
 Quoting: *Heisenberg*


I don't agree that 'monetary normalization' (in the specific way defined above) is either. The amount of the distribution would be regulated by the Fed, or Congress, to maximize the value of the dollar.

Capitalism has produced many great things for this country and the world. I don't want to see that lost. And that would be major disruption to our way of life. Remember: 'small & gradual'.

As we all know, somewhere north of 50% of Americans already receive government payments. I'm simply arguing to make that number 100% and let those who want to work, and earn more, do so. Nothing would need change in anybody's life.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1126441


Exactly what do you think all of those useless dollars would buy? Your solution is a prescription for Hyperinflation.

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