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PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS

 
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

User ID: 25060533
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10/09/2012 01:51 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
THose laws were never moses law those were laws given to moses by the father.There was fault iwth it where by man had to obey all to be accepted if not he will die if he faltered at one.

The promise of messiah took away the curse of the law of death. messiah became that curse on the cross..The books said it cursed is eeveryman that hangeth from a tree.

The law is not a curse or to be abhorred but it is good and wonderful. the holy spirit is only given to those who obey the laws and commands of gOD ..THIS IS WRITTEN.

These are called the saints of the most high
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


It is called Mosaic law because the law was given to Moses. The law was indeed a curse to men because once it was known it had to be followed lest a man suffer the consequence of breaking the law. The law of God was a response to the pride of the Israelites when they declared before God that anything he required of them, they could do. Therefore God gave them an UNKEEPABLE law to shame them in their pride. In God's eyes the law is good and holy but it became a curse to the man who tried to keep it and failed. Only God can keep his own laws.

Prior to Christ, the Holy Spirit was given to those who God chose to gift it to. Generally these people were prophets acting on God's orders. After Christ, the Holy Spirit was bestowed upon each and every person who believed in the Blood of Jesus Christ as payment for their sin. There is no other requirement and the Holy Spirit cannot be bought or earned. This was the error of Simon the Magician who attempted to purchase the power of the Holy Spirit to use as a parlour trick in order to get rich. Each and every person who accepts Christ as their saviour becomes a saint of the Most High. We become priests in his name.

if you read you will see it is not me who needs this understanding but you.For what I have written is what the word says and what it means.I am not giving it a christian twist...
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


My friend, there is no twist required. Upon the death of Jesus Christ, we entered into a new covenant with God. This new covenant requires only that we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. It is that simple.
 Quoting: asparien


To accept him? rather to believe in him and do the will of the father who sent him means this:

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


See who he came to restore Israel not the gentile nations who wants to twsit the teachings.

You ARE COMMANDED IN ROMANS CHAPTER 11 tO FOLLOW PROTOCOL ALL THE TEACHINGS AND NOT DEVIATE OR YOU WIL BE CUT OFF THOUGH GRAFTED IN


32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



FYI
Why DID HE RAISE HIM A PRINCE? HE IS THE SON NOT GOD THE FATHER

HE IS THE WORD MADE FLESH[THE FATHERS WORD]

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/09/2012 01:54 PM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/09/2012 01:51 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
No man comes to the father exceept through me!

What does that mean? do you think it means just by saying i love Jesus and I am a christian you are in the presence of the father?

So wrong! He is the WORD of the father and the son of the father..

If you dont listen to the WORDS he commanded which are his fathers words then you are toast and an enemy.You have to embtrace the word and live it not fight it and give it a new religious new age meaning.
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


What this means is that whoever accepts Jesus as their Lord and Saviour is given the RIGHT to stand before the Father when they pass from this life to the next. You are twisting words and meanings here.

Jesus' statement is that he is the only one qualified to die in our place since he is the only one who was without sin. Once we accept him and his sacrifice, he seals us and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. He then writes his commandments on our hearts and we are NO LONGER bound by written commands. We are outside the law because we are covered by grace. The bible then becomes for us a guidebook as such. We are to follow its teachings but there is no longer the penalty of death if we fail to keep every part of every law. This is what it means to have the burden of law removed from us.

Yes we all know Yehshah is the way the truth and the light-The word AND THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER

So why you people oppose the word that is spoken when it is him? That is the question
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


We do not oppose Him or His Word. We accept Jesus as our saviour and allow him to become our advocate to the Father. We receive his righteousness and become faultless in the sight of the Lord. This is the meaning of grace and the Gospel.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/09/2012 01:59 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
No man comes to the father exceept through me!

What does that mean? do you think it means just by saying i love Jesus and I am a christian you are in the presence of the father?

So wrong! He is the WORD of the father and the son of the father..

If you dont listen to the WORDS he commanded which are his fathers words then you are toast and an enemy.You have to embtrace the word and live it not fight it and give it a new religious new age meaning.
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


What this means is that whoever accepts Jesus as their Lord and Saviour is given the RIGHT to stand before the Father when they pass from this life to the next. You are twisting words and meanings here.

Jesus' statement is that he is the only one qualified to die in our place since he is the only one who was without sin. Once we accept him and his sacrifice, he seals us and gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit. He then writes his commandments on our hearts and we are NO LONGER bound by written commands. We are outside the law because we are covered by grace. The bible then becomes for us a guidebook as such. We are to follow its teachings but there is no longer the penalty of death if we fail to keep every part of every law. This is what it means to have the burden of law removed from us.

Yes we all know Yehshah is the way the truth and the light-The word AND THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER

So why you people oppose the word that is spoken when it is him? That is the question
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


We do not oppose Him or His Word. We accept Jesus as our saviour and allow him to become our advocate to the Father. We receive his righteousness and become faultless in the sight of the Lord. This is the meaning of grace and the Gospel.
 Quoting: asparien


Any one denying the words of the prophets and messiah teaching is in opposition to the father.You sing and write as sweet as a canary but the truth stands .Their words are smoother than butter but war is in their hearts.

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/09/2012 01:59 PM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/09/2012 02:01 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Well, I don't look at it that Jesus *expanded* the law, but rather that He simplified it. Kinda like the old adage " is the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty?" It all depends on where it was when it started before it came to the 1/2 way point, you know?

Regarding the "law of Moses"...... what people have been taught about the 613, and that God gave those commands to Moses to give to the Israelites, well, He never did. The law He gave to Moses was far, FAR simpler. The rest of it is levitical sand that must be sorted through.

No wonder Messiah was so frustrated with the teachings of the scribes and pharisees!! They had all but obliterated the truth, and in fact, in His own words -- they had taken away the secret of the key of knowledge.

Jesus did not come to die so that we wouldn't have to learn His Father's instructions... He didn't love us so deeply that He died in our place so that we are free to do was WE will.......
 Quoting: Shamar


Yeah, pretty much the same thing said in a different way. Even though the ten commandments given to Moses were far simpler to teach and explain, they are impossible to keep. What the Levites did was to produce a complex arrangements of laws and ceremonies by which they could 'keep' the law and earn a place with God by their works. Jesus taught that this concept is in error and that men cannot keep God's law.

To accept him? rather to believe in him and do the will of the father who sent him means this:

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



FYI
Why DID HE RAISE HIM A PRINCE? HE IS THE SON NOT GOD THE FATHER

HE IS THE WORD MADE FLESH[THE FATHERS WORD]
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Yes you are correct, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God, and the way in which we obey God is to accept his Son. For without the Son we are nothing in the eyes of God. Our walk with God has again been reduced to a single, simple command. Accept Jesus. Its not the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil this time. It is the very Son of God. Still, we have one choice to make and this choice will determine our eternal future. To each who obeys God and accepts his Son is given the Holy Spirit as a helper and companion.

Regarding the Son and the Father. They are the same. Father and Son are two concepts that God uses in order to explain his existence in a way we can partially comprehend. The difference is that to us, Father and Son are two separate entities but to God, they are the same entity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three but one. They are God. We cannot understand this but we do not need to. Jesus is God and has the full power and authority of God. He laid down his life however to allow us to be with him. We are precious to him and thus he becomes precious to us.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Anonymous Coward
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10/09/2012 02:05 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
the whole thing is a lie anyway! there is no God, it was all made up!
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/09/2012 02:08 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Well, I don't look at it that Jesus *expanded* the law, but rather that He simplified it. Kinda like the old adage " is the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty?" It all depends on where it was when it started before it came to the 1/2 way point, you know?

Regarding the "law of Moses"...... what people have been taught about the 613, and that God gave those commands to Moses to give to the Israelites, well, He never did. The law He gave to Moses was far, FAR simpler. The rest of it is levitical sand that must be sorted through.

No wonder Messiah was so frustrated with the teachings of the scribes and pharisees!! They had all but obliterated the truth, and in fact, in His own words -- they had taken away the secret of the key of knowledge.

Jesus did not come to die so that we wouldn't have to learn His Father's instructions... He didn't love us so deeply that He died in our place so that we are free to do was WE will.......
 Quoting: Shamar


Yeah, pretty much the same thing said in a different way. Even though the ten commandments given to Moses were far simpler to teach and explain, they are impossible to keep. What the Levites did was to produce a complex arrangements of laws and ceremonies by which they could 'keep' the law and earn a place with God by their works. Jesus taught that this concept is in error and that men cannot keep God's law.

To accept him? rather to believe in him and do the will of the father who sent him means this:

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



FYI
Why DID HE RAISE HIM A PRINCE? HE IS THE SON NOT GOD THE FATHER

HE IS THE WORD MADE FLESH[THE FATHERS WORD]
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Yes you are correct, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God, and the way in which we obey God is to accept his Son. For without the Son we are nothing in the eyes of God. Our walk with God has again been reduced to a single, simple command. Accept Jesus. Its not the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil this time. It is the very Son of God. Still, we have one choice to make and this choice will determine our eternal future. To each who obeys God and accepts his Son is given the Holy Spirit as a helper and companion.

Regarding the Son and the Father. They are the same. Father and Son are two concepts that God uses in order to explain his existence in a way we can partially comprehend. The difference is that to us, Father and Son are two separate entities but to God, they are the same entity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three but one. They are God. We cannot understand this but we do not need to. Jesus is God and has the full power and authority of God. He laid down his life however to allow us to be with him. We are precious to him and thus he becomes precious to us.
 Quoting: asparien


keep searching the scriptures and again go back to the basice thread or if you think these were my words go to the book of james and read it from your bible..THATS ALL
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/09/2012 02:09 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Any one denying the words of the prophets and messiah teaching is in opposition to the father.You sing and write as sweet as a canary but the truth stands .Their words are smoother than butter but war is in their hearts.
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


There is no war to be found in my heart friend. I do not deny the words of the prophets or of the messiah himself. I believe the prophets when they said the messiah is coming. I believe the messiah when he said he is here. I believe him when he told us that only through him can we reach the Father. I also believe what he said when he returned and said that any who believed in him and were baptized would be saved.

These are the words of the Lord.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Anonymous Coward
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10/09/2012 02:18 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
While faith without works is most certainly a dead faith, works without faith is just as dead. They are both equally unresponsive to God.
 Quoting: Life and Love


?1dunno1
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


You don't agree with what you've bolded from my post?
 Quoting: Life and Love


While faith without works is most certainly a dead faith, works without faith is just as dead. They are both equally unresponsive to God.
 Quoting: Life and Love


?1dunno1
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


You don't agree with what you've bolded from my post?
 Quoting: Life and Love



24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Neim forgot he posted James 2:24 which cancels Luther's
"Sola Fide." Protestants cling to this heresy because
so many other heresies come from it. Example...

Our Lord did it all on the Cross, took on all your sins, you're covered, no accounting, His righteousness, His perfection is IMPUTED to you.

Nonsense.
asparien

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10/09/2012 02:27 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
keep searching the scriptures and again go back to the basice thread or if you think these were my words go to the book of james and read it from your bible..THATS ALL
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


The book of James is not the entirety of the Bible though. It cannot be read in isolation but neither can it be passed over in preference of other scripture. It must be read in context in order to gain greater understanding and wisdom.

The general message of this letter is this:

If you have faith in Jesus but do not subsequently act as he commanded (love, kindness, gentleness, etc.) then the faith we profess to have is of no use.

If we refuse to forgive those who sin against us then we dishonour the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf and negate our ability to claim his Blood. When we truly accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, our faith produces fruit by way of good works. It is not these works that save us however but our faith. The two are linked but only faith can save.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
asparien

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10/09/2012 02:32 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Neim forgot he posted James 2:24 which cancels Luther's
"Sola Fide." Protestants cling to this heresy because
so many other heresies come from it. Example...

Our Lord did it all on the Cross, took on all your sins, you're covered, no accounting, His righteousness, His perfection is IMPUTED to you.

Nonsense.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


Taken in isolation, you can argue that this is what that scripture means. Immediately beforehand however is referenced two example of people saved by works and not by faith alone. These two people existed prior to the finished work of Christ and thus were not eligible to be saved by faith alone.

Not one example can be found ANYWHERE of a person who is saved by works alone who lived after the death of Jesus Christ.

This argument becomes invalid therefore as it does not apply to the new covenant that was established upon the death of Jesus Christ. The new covenant of salvation by way of grace.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Anonymous Coward
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10/09/2012 02:36 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Here is a sample, the list of quotes are too long. If you reject what the first Christians believed, some of them who knew the Apostles, you end up following a lie, heresy.

There have been various heresies throughout 2000 years of the Church but the lie of "Faith Alone" came along in the
16th century, from Martin Luther.

Notice the date on the quotes...

+ + +



The Early Church Fathers on
Justification

From the very beginning the Church taught that we are justified by faith which is manifested through works. As James tells us: “faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). While the meaning of the text is plain some still deny it.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 95]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).
asparien

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10/09/2012 03:12 PM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Here is a sample, the list of quotes are too long. If you reject what the first Christians believed, some of them who knew the Apostles, you end up following a lie, heresy.

There have been various heresies throughout 2000 years of the Church but the lie of "Faith Alone" came along in the
16th century, from Martin Luther.

Faith alone is no lie and was explicitly taught by Paul. Do you suggest that a man who calls on the name of Jesus to save him with his dying breath will still be damned because he has no opportunity to perform any works? Such a thing would be ridiculous to teach.

Notice the date on the quotes...

+ + +



The Early Church Fathers on
Justification

From the very beginning the Church taught that we are justified by faith which is manifested through works. As James tells us: “faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). While the meaning of the text is plain some still deny it.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 95]).

This explains that we are justified by faith, not through our own wisdom and understanding or indeed our works. Abraham's deeds were the result of his faith and yet the fact that he lived prior to Mosaic Law makes his faith and deeds all the more remarkable. Little wonder God chose to bless him richly.

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

This is pure BS. Man cannot reach immortality by the patient exercise of good works. The righteousness of man is as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. We cannot earn a place by God's side, we must receive it as a gift.

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Their faith did indeed save them and this was not isolated to Jews alone. Indeed, Jesus said that greater faith he had not seen than that of the Roman Centurion who was a gentile. The Jews were not blameless because they lived in accord with the law. They were blameless in the sight of the Lord because they offered a sacrifice in their stead when they broke the law. The sacrifice was temporary and did not prevent them from sinning. It was simply allowed as a substitute death in the eyes of the Lord so that the Jews would not be required to die. The Jews were NOT blameless, hence the need for sacrifices in the first place.

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

What this is saying is that a man can profess to believe in Christ yet not truly believe in him and thus dies in his sins. It is this person for whom professed faith exists in absence of works. If we truly believe in Christ, we are COMPELLED by our faith to produce works as a fruit of the Spirit. That being said, it is not by our works that we are saved, but our faith.

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

This section also appears to suggest that by works and manner of living we can make ourselves acceptable to God. This is false and obvious heresy. How many times must we repeat that we are not saved by our works. Nothing we do can EARN a place by God's side.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213



None of this concludes that we can be saved by works or that works are required in order to be saved. We are saved by faith and our faith compels us to perform good works in the name of the Lord. How many different ways must this be explained?

Last Edited by asparien on 10/09/2012 03:12 PM
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Here is a sample, the list of quotes are too long. If you reject what the first Christians believed, some of them who knew the Apostles, you end up following a lie, heresy.

There have been various heresies throughout 2000 years of the Church but the lie of "Faith Alone" came along in the
16th century, from Martin Luther.

Faith alone is no lie and was explicitly taught by Paul. Do you suggest that a man who calls on the name of Jesus to save him with his dying breath will still be damned because he has no opportunity to perform any works? Such a thing would be ridiculous to teach.

Notice the date on the quotes...

+ + +



The Early Church Fathers on
Justification

From the very beginning the Church taught that we are justified by faith which is manifested through works. As James tells us: “faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). While the meaning of the text is plain some still deny it.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 95]).

This explains that we are justified by faith, not through our own wisdom and understanding or indeed our works. Abraham's deeds were the result of his faith and yet the fact that he lived prior to Mosaic Law makes his faith and deeds all the more remarkable. Little wonder God chose to bless him richly.

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

This is pure BS. Man cannot reach immortality by the patient exercise of good works. The righteousness of man is as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. We cannot earn a place by God's side, we must receive it as a gift.

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Their faith did indeed save them and this was not isolated to Jews alone. Indeed, Jesus said that greater faith he had not seen than that of the Roman Centurion who was a gentile. The Jews were not blameless because they lived in accord with the law. They were blameless in the sight of the Lord because they offered a sacrifice in their stead when they broke the law. The sacrifice was temporary and did not prevent them from sinning. It was simply allowed as a substitute death in the eyes of the Lord so that the Jews would not be required to die. The Jews were NOT blameless, hence the need for sacrifices in the first place.

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

What this is saying is that a man can profess to believe in Christ yet not truly believe in him and thus dies in his sins. It is this person for whom professed faith exists in absence of works. If we truly believe in Christ, we are COMPELLED by our faith to produce works as a fruit of the Spirit. That being said, it is not by our works that we are saved, but our faith.

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

This section also appears to suggest that by works and manner of living we can make ourselves acceptable to God. This is false and obvious heresy. How many times must we repeat that we are not saved by our works. Nothing we do can EARN a place by God's side.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213



None of this concludes that we can be saved by works or that works are required in order to be saved. We are saved by faith and our faith compels us to perform good works in the name of the Lord. How many different ways must this be explained?
 Quoting: asparien



com·pel
Verb:
1.Force or oblige (someone) to do something.
2.Bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure
.


"compel" ???

Faith doesn't make you do anything. You are not a robot.
Having faith, with the help of God, which is His grace. You
always choose to do a work. Choosing a good work hopefully, your "works" are the actions of your life.

God wants us to freely choose Him. Lose Martin Luther's "Sola Fide", it isn't true.


+ + +

Some Protestants insist that it is the faith that does the work in us not we ourselves. Faith (God's gift to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it does not make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our obedience in response to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings "perfect" or "complete" faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given not a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one's own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ's hand (Romans 8:35-39).
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Here is a sample, the list of quotes are too long. If you reject what the first Christians believed, some of them who knew the Apostles, you end up following a lie, heresy.

There have been various heresies throughout 2000 years of the Church but the lie of "Faith Alone" came along in the
16th century, from Martin Luther.

Faith alone is no lie and was explicitly taught by Paul. Do you suggest that a man who calls on the name of Jesus to save him with his dying breath will still be damned because he has no opportunity to perform any works? Such a thing would be ridiculous to teach.

Notice the date on the quotes...

+ + +



The Early Church Fathers on
Justification

From the very beginning the Church taught that we are justified by faith which is manifested through works. As James tells us: “faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). While the meaning of the text is plain some still deny it.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 95]).

This explains that we are justified by faith, not through our own wisdom and understanding or indeed our works. Abraham's deeds were the result of his faith and yet the fact that he lived prior to Mosaic Law makes his faith and deeds all the more remarkable. Little wonder God chose to bless him richly.

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

This is pure BS. Man cannot reach immortality by the patient exercise of good works. The righteousness of man is as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. We cannot earn a place by God's side, we must receive it as a gift.

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Their faith did indeed save them and this was not isolated to Jews alone. Indeed, Jesus said that greater faith he had not seen than that of the Roman Centurion who was a gentile. The Jews were not blameless because they lived in accord with the law. They were blameless in the sight of the Lord because they offered a sacrifice in their stead when they broke the law. The sacrifice was temporary and did not prevent them from sinning. It was simply allowed as a substitute death in the eyes of the Lord so that the Jews would not be required to die. The Jews were NOT blameless, hence the need for sacrifices in the first place.

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

What this is saying is that a man can profess to believe in Christ yet not truly believe in him and thus dies in his sins. It is this person for whom professed faith exists in absence of works. If we truly believe in Christ, we are COMPELLED by our faith to produce works as a fruit of the Spirit. That being said, it is not by our works that we are saved, but our faith.

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

This section also appears to suggest that by works and manner of living we can make ourselves acceptable to God. This is false and obvious heresy. How many times must we repeat that we are not saved by our works. Nothing we do can EARN a place by God's side.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213



None of this concludes that we can be saved by works or that works are required in order to be saved. We are saved by faith and our faith compels us to perform good works in the name of the Lord. How many different ways must this be explained?
 Quoting: asparien



seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/10/2012 10:13 AM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Neim forgot he posted James 2:24 which cancels Luther's
"Sola Fide." Protestants cling to this heresy because
so many other heresies come from it. Example...

Our Lord did it all on the Cross, took on all your sins, you're covered, no accounting, His righteousness, His perfection is IMPUTED to you.

Nonsense.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


Taken in isolation, you can argue that this is what that scripture means. Immediately beforehand however is referenced two example of people saved by works and not by faith alone. These two people existed prior to the finished work of Christ and thus were not eligible to be saved by faith alone.

Not one example can be found ANYWHERE of a person who is saved by works alone who lived after the death of Jesus Christ.

This argument becomes invalid therefore as it does not apply to the new covenant that was established upon the death of Jesus Christ. The new covenant of salvation by way of grace.
 Quoting: asparien


seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/09/2012 09:48 PM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Well, I don't look at it that Jesus *expanded* the law, but rather that He simplified it. Kinda like the old adage " is the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty?" It all depends on where it was when it started before it came to the 1/2 way point, you know?

Regarding the "law of Moses"...... what people have been taught about the 613, and that God gave those commands to Moses to give to the Israelites, well, He never did. The law He gave to Moses was far, FAR simpler. The rest of it is levitical sand that must be sorted through.

No wonder Messiah was so frustrated with the teachings of the scribes and pharisees!! They had all but obliterated the truth, and in fact, in His own words -- they had taken away the secret of the key of knowledge.

Jesus did not come to die so that we wouldn't have to learn His Father's instructions... He didn't love us so deeply that He died in our place so that we are free to do was WE will.......
 Quoting: Shamar


Yeah, pretty much the same thing said in a different way. Even though the ten commandments given to Moses were far simpler to teach and explain, they are impossible to keep. What the Levites did was to produce a complex arrangements of laws and ceremonies by which they could 'keep' the law and earn a place with God by their works. Jesus taught that this concept is in error and that men cannot keep God's law.

To accept him? rather to believe in him and do the will of the father who sent him means this:

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



FYI
Why DID HE RAISE HIM A PRINCE? HE IS THE SON NOT GOD THE FATHER

HE IS THE WORD MADE FLESH[THE FATHERS WORD]
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Yes you are correct, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God, and the way in which we obey God is to accept his Son. For without the Son we are nothing in the eyes of God. Our walk with God has again been reduced to a single, simple command. Accept Jesus. Its not the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil this time. It is the very Son of God. Still, we have one choice to make and this choice will determine our eternal future. To each who obeys God and accepts his Son is given the Holy Spirit as a helper and companion.

Regarding the Son and the Father. They are the same. Father and Son are two concepts that God uses in order to explain his existence in a way we can partially comprehend. The difference is that to us, Father and Son are two separate entities but to God, they are the same entity. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three but one. They are God. We cannot understand this but we do not need to. Jesus is God and has the full power and authority of God. He laid down his life however to allow us to be with him. We are precious to him and thus he becomes precious to us.
 Quoting: asparien


I really think you need an aspirin
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
7" Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."


****************************************


Good works will always accompany a genuine repentance and faith in Christ.


But it is God who determines what is good......not man.


The JW think that they are doing good works by going door to door and handing out their magazines.


So this is something that has to be viewed as good by God.


Those who are born again by the Holy Spirit.....are immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit.....and connected with God.


The Holy Spirit then directs the person and gives him the power to work on things which bring him closer to God.....and also to do various other things according to His will.....and viewed by Him as good.


Perhaps a individual gets stressed out too much. The Holy Spirit will bring this to his attention and help that person work on this.


There is nothing good about us. The first sin killed us....when we were about 8 or 9 years of age. This would involve knowing God's commandments....understanding them......and then deliberately going out and breaking one of them. Perhaps the child told a fib....or perhaps stole some change. The first sin kills you......God is holy. This separates you from God.


Hence Christ said that you must be born again.


As Paul said.....there is evil in his flesh....sin residing there.....and that his flesh was in fact dead because of sin. However he received new life in Christ.


The good works are inspired by the Holy Spirit......and are referred to in Scripture as the "fruit of the Spirit."
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7" Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."


****************************************


Good works will always accompany a genuine repentance and faith in Christ.


But it is God who determines what is good......not man.


The JW think that they are doing good works by going door to door and handing out their magazines.


So this is something that has to be viewed as good by God.


Those who are born again by the Holy Spirit.....are immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit.....and connected with God.


The Holy Spirit then directs the person and gives him the power to work on things which bring him closer to God.....and also to do various other things according to His will.....and viewed by Him as good.


Perhaps a individual gets stressed out too much. The Holy Spirit will bring this to his attention and help that person work on this.


There is nothing good about us. The first sin killed us....when we were about 8 or 9 years of age. This would involve knowing God's commandments....understanding them......and then deliberately going out and breaking one of them. Perhaps the child told a fib....or perhaps stole some change. The first sin kills you......God is holy. This separates you from God.


Hence Christ said that you must be born again.


As Paul said.....there is evil in his flesh....sin residing there.....and that his flesh was in fact dead because of sin. However he received new life in Christ.


The good works are inspired by the Holy Spirit......and are referred to in Scripture as the "fruit of the Spirit."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24909996


Paul NEVER preached "Sola Fide", this is Martin Luther's gem, he came up with it 15 centuries later. And another lie
of Martin Luther, his heresy of man is completely depraved.

No true. Humanity has a fallen nature AND we are capable of
good. flower

+ + +

Does Saint Paul have his own "Not by Faith Alone" verse? ohyeah

In Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV) we read:


If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness*, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Plainly read: to be "saved" you must "confess" and "believe". Obviously, "salvation by faith alone" is ruled out here. But surely there is a Protestant answer to this, for now it appears Saint Paul has his own "Not By Faith Alone" verse (since we already know Saint James has his own)!
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Scripture War!!!

pope

goodevil

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
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Last Edited by Shamar on 10/10/2012 11:44 AM
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
These are The Final Days...

No Witness from Christ Jesus do you cite, not too surpising Neim.


I rank you among the Laodiceans you vent about; you just don't Know you are. Why? Because you are not Born-Again and Abiding With The Father and Son. No Ezekiel 36:26-27 witness or testimony from you.
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Christ Tells us in Matthew 24:22-24 that all but "the very elect" will suffer deception in the time Before HIS Coming.

You are no different.
You are a carnal-hearted, stony-heart Christian; if you even call yourself just "Christian".

Self-will and conjecture manifest carnality and manufacture great error; but were you Born-Again you would Understand and have witness, something you have Seen and Know.

The Paulian Gospel is very convoluted and wordy. It is the camouflage of the self-seeker. Of course, the carnal-hearted Christian of all flavors never sees Paul's citation of Hebrews 12 Bastards in verses 5-10 of that chapter. Nor do they grasp his Witness in 2nd Tim ch 2 that any who would preach, teach, minister "First Be Partakers Of The Fruit", meaning be Ezekiel 36 Born-Again... Which you are not.


Until God The Father Has Given you A New Heart Of HIS Flesh, you remain alienated From HIM and a Know-nothing. Really ought keep your false-witness to yourself or amongst whatever little sect you associate with. Might not be making effort to post anti-Christ shit, but that is what you produce.

Not Born-Again?
Then Christ don't and won't Know you.
Not Enabled To Do HIS Father's Will?
Then HE don't Know you...
Really impossible to lie or misunderstand about Being Brought Into Father's Presence... If you were never there, Jesus don't Know you and you remain a "worker of iniquity"...

From Matthew ch 7: In HIS OWN Words...
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Done them "Mighty Works" In HIS Name; have you?
Unless you "Doeth The Will Of MY Father Which IS IN Heaven", Jesus Don't Know you...


It ain't about others.
Your life is about your heart, and your Love For God; Whether you Love HIM Enough to Trust HIM Completely With Every Aspect Of your life?

If can do so, Tell HIM NOW! My witness to you (and all others who claim HIM and read here).


Unable to Trust Father-God Fully?

Such is the lot of Laodicea and why they are lukewarm and spewn forth from God...


Maranatha!!!
Lester
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From Luke 13... more of Jesus' Witness that you must be Born-Again, Know The Father and DO HIS Will before HE Knows you...

23. Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26. Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Only surrender Unto The Father Delivers you from your carnality and Into HIS Accord:
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


But you are "Bastards not Sons"... Hebrews 12 Bastards who seek self, unable to Trust God Fully.


St. John Witnesses of your lot in 1st John 2:19...
18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

You carnal-hearted Hebrews 12 Bastards are anti-Christ!
Self-willed, not submitted Unto The Father, seeking your will and judgments; unable to Know much less Do HIS Will...


Workers of iniquity.
Liars and practicers of deceit, unwilling to Trust God....

Better to have never been born than lead one of HIS Innocents astray... Such is why Paul Witnesses to Timothy in 2nd Tim 2:
6. The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
7. Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Giving Tim Witness of those who would minister, teach, preach... Must Be First Partaker Of The Fruits.

Have To KNOW Christ Jesus and The Father to Preach The Gospel.
HE IS The Word Made Flesh.
But you don't Know HIM...
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 09:08 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
7" Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."


****************************************


Good works will always accompany a genuine repentance and faith in Christ.


But it is God who determines what is good......not man.


The JW think that they are doing good works by going door to door and handing out their magazines.


So this is something that has to be viewed as good by God.


Those who are born again by the Holy Spirit.....are immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit.....and connected with God.


The Holy Spirit then directs the person and gives him the power to work on things which bring him closer to God.....and also to do various other things according to His will.....and viewed by Him as good.


Perhaps a individual gets stressed out too much. The Holy Spirit will bring this to his attention and help that person work on this.


There is nothing good about us. The first sin killed us....when we were about 8 or 9 years of age. This would involve knowing God's commandments....understanding them......and then deliberately going out and breaking one of them. Perhaps the child told a fib....or perhaps stole some change. The first sin kills you......God is holy. This separates you from God.


Hence Christ said that you must be born again.


As Paul said.....there is evil in his flesh....sin residing there.....and that his flesh was in fact dead because of sin. However he received new life in Christ.


The good works are inspired by the Holy Spirit......and are referred to in Scripture as the "fruit of the Spirit."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24909996


Paul NEVER preached "Sola Fide", this is Martin Luther's gem, he came up with it 15 centuries later. And another lie
of Martin Luther, his heresy of man is completely depraved.

No true. Humanity has a fallen nature AND we are capable of
good. flower

+ + +

Does Saint Paul have his own "Not by Faith Alone" verse? ohyeah

In Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV) we read:


[i]If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness*, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Plainly read: to be "saved" you must "confess" and "believe". Obviously, "salvation by faith alone" is ruled out here. But surely there is a Protestant answer to this, for now it appears Saint Paul has his own "Not By Faith Alone" verse (since we already know Saint James has his own)!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


Do you beLieve that line alone and the shallow meaning you are giving to it? There is a deeper meaning than just what you percieve it to be.I will show you why

THE DEVILS CONFESSED THE NAME AND THEY BELIEVED!


Mark 5:5-7

6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?

All the demons knew Jesus, and recognized Him as Son of the Most High God!

The people of the world don’t want to know Him, and refuse to consider Jesus as the Savior of the world, and as mankind’s Savior-- the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

But, the demons knew Jesus. And, they believed in Jesus, too!

Remember the 7 sons of Sceva, in the Book of Acts, when confronted with an evil spirit? (Acts 19:14)

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

The demons tremble at the name of Jesus Christ, their Judge; and ours, too.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! (James 2:19)

Jesus then commands the evil spirit to depart…

Mark 5:7-8

8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/10/2012 09:10 AM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Lester
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10/10/2012 09:24 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Neim,

How telling it is that you write of the demon of Gadarenes, remarking that legion, "Believed and Knew" Jesus...

the demons Knew WHO Christ Jesus IS, they had no belief.


So telling... You have no Knowledge. No Born-Again Enablement From The Father. You do not KNOW, but you have Belief; and maybe Faith.

Yet, Knowing God supersedes Belief and Faith.
Knowing comes from taking action; The Leap Of Faith, aka surrender Unto The Father.

Knowing God is so much more than any Believer or Faithful can grasp; because they've yet to Experience it and don't Know God...
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 09:32 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
I'd suggest you read the book Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna. A great many Pagan influences and rituals were infused into Christianity during the time of Constantine in the Roman Empire. Most Christians engage in Pagan practices without even knowing it, and celebrate the Pagan holidays. Most Christians are oblivious to the origins of their practices or how much the Bible and doctrines of Jesus have been doctored to support an elite power structure without their best interests at heart. Personally I find this amusing.

Here's a link to the book on Barnes and Noble:

[link to www.barnesandnoble.com]
 Quoting: Mr. E 5439566


I did and there are many of them very mad at the truth and the exposing of their false modern pagan misconceptions

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/10/2012 09:32 AM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
dschis1000

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10/10/2012 10:09 AM

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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
While faith without works is most certainly a dead faith, works without faith is just as dead. They are both equally unresponsive to God.
 Quoting: Life and Love


You see faith is expressed through works, If you are truly saved you strive to accomplish those works.

I would recommend everyone to read the ENTIRE book of James he did a really good job of encapsulating stuff.

Bear in mind what our Saviour said the sheep and goats

Blessings
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 10:10 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
While faith without works is most certainly a dead faith, works without faith is just as dead. They are both equally unresponsive to God.
 Quoting: Life and Love


You see faith is expressed through works, If you are truly saved you strive to accomplish those works.

I would recommend everyone to read the ENTIRE book of James he did a really good job of encapsulating stuff.

Bear in mind what our Saviour said the sheep and goats

Blessings
 Quoting: dschis1000


excellent post
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:11 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS


com·pel
Verb:
1.Force or oblige (someone) to do something.
2.Bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure
.


"compel" ???

Faith doesn't make you do anything. You are not a robot.
Having faith, with the help of God, which is His grace. You
always choose to do a work. Choosing a good work hopefully, your "works" are the actions of your life.

God wants us to freely choose Him. Lose Martin Luther's "Sola Fide", it isn't true.


+ + +

Some Protestants insist that it is the faith that does the work in us not we ourselves. Faith (God's gift to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it does not make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our obedience in response to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings "perfect" or "complete" faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given not a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one's own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ's hand (Romans 8:35-39).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


I would argue that Compel is the correct word to use (as defined in point 1), in that Faith places upon us an obligation to act and produce good works. This is in accordance with scripture which states that Love inspires and Faith acts. This is how one can make the statement that faith without works is dead because faith obliges one to act.

On another note, how is it you can say that we possess a 'degree' of eternal life? We either experience eternal life or eternal death. Our destination is determined by our choice. Jesus or not Jesus. When we choose Jesus we enter into relationship with him and begin a journey to develop our character so that it becomes more like him over time. Our good works determine that various rewards we receive once we reach Heaven but our faith is what enables us to enter Heaven in the first place. I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 10:13 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS


com·pel
Verb:
1.Force or oblige (someone) to do something.
2.Bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure
.


"compel" ???

Faith doesn't make you do anything. You are not a robot.
Having faith, with the help of God, which is His grace. You
always choose to do a work. Choosing a good work hopefully, your "works" are the actions of your life.

God wants us to freely choose Him. Lose Martin Luther's "Sola Fide", it isn't true.


+ + +

Some Protestants insist that it is the faith that does the work in us not we ourselves. Faith (God's gift to man through His Word / Eph 2:8; Rom 10: 17) is a necessary motivation for us to obey but it does not make us obey. Man has a choice to resist or yield, therefore the obedience is our responsibility. It is our obedience in response to faith that brings justification (and Eternal Life). Justification then brings "perfect" or "complete" faith, the proof we have that Eternal Life (See John 3:36!). Further, Eternal Life is something we possess in degrees and that corresponds to how close we have grown to Christ. It is Eternal Life we are given not a promise of the eternal possession of that life. That Life, however, is so powerful that nothing in all the universe, but one's own self will and sin, can remove us from Christ's hand (Romans 8:35-39).
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


I would argue that Compel is the correct word to use (as defined in point 1), in that Faith places upon us an obligation to act and produce good works. This is in accordance with scripture which states that Love inspires and Faith acts. This is how one can make the statement that faith without works is dead because faith obliges one to act.

On another note, how is it you can say that we possess a 'degree' of eternal life? We either experience eternal life or eternal death. Our destination is determined by our choice. Jesus or not Jesus. When we choose Jesus we enter into relationship with him and begin a journey to develop our character so that it becomes more like him over time. Our good works determine that various rewards we receive once we reach Heaven but our faith is what enables us to enter Heaven in the first place. I fail to see how you can argue otherwise.
 Quoting: asparien


None of this concludes that we can be saved by works or that works are required in order to be saved. We are saved by faith and our faith compels us to perform good works in the name of the Lord. How many different ways must this be explained?



seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 10:14 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Here is a sample, the list of quotes are too long. If you reject what the first Christians believed, some of them who knew the Apostles, you end up following a lie, heresy.

There have been various heresies throughout 2000 years of the Church but the lie of "Faith Alone" came along in the
16th century, from Martin Luther.

Faith alone is no lie and was explicitly taught by Paul. Do you suggest that a man who calls on the name of Jesus to save him with his dying breath will still be damned because he has no opportunity to perform any works? Such a thing would be ridiculous to teach.

Notice the date on the quotes...

+ + +



The Early Church Fathers on
Justification

From the very beginning the Church taught that we are justified by faith which is manifested through works. As James tells us: “faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (James 2:17). While the meaning of the text is plain some still deny it.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 95]).

This explains that we are justified by faith, not through our own wisdom and understanding or indeed our works. Abraham's deeds were the result of his faith and yet the fact that he lived prior to Mosaic Law makes his faith and deeds all the more remarkable. Little wonder God chose to bless him richly.

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

This is pure BS. Man cannot reach immortality by the patient exercise of good works. The righteousness of man is as filthy rags in the sight of the Lord. We cannot earn a place by God's side, we must receive it as a gift.

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Their faith did indeed save them and this was not isolated to Jews alone. Indeed, Jesus said that greater faith he had not seen than that of the Roman Centurion who was a gentile. The Jews were not blameless because they lived in accord with the law. They were blameless in the sight of the Lord because they offered a sacrifice in their stead when they broke the law. The sacrifice was temporary and did not prevent them from sinning. It was simply allowed as a substitute death in the eyes of the Lord so that the Jews would not be required to die. The Jews were NOT blameless, hence the need for sacrifices in the first place.

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

What this is saying is that a man can profess to believe in Christ yet not truly believe in him and thus dies in his sins. It is this person for whom professed faith exists in absence of works. If we truly believe in Christ, we are COMPELLED by our faith to produce works as a fruit of the Spirit. That being said, it is not by our works that we are saved, but our faith.

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

This section also appears to suggest that by works and manner of living we can make ourselves acceptable to God. This is false and obvious heresy. How many times must we repeat that we are not saved by our works. Nothing we do can EARN a place by God's side.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213



None of this concludes that we can be saved by works or that works are required in order to be saved. We are saved by faith and our faith compels us to perform good works in the name of the Lord. How many different ways must this be explained?
 Quoting: asparien



seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


THIS !
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:

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