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PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS

 
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:22 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:23 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
I really think you need an aspirin
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Why would I need an aspirin? I feel fine...
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
dschis1000

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10/10/2012 10:26 AM

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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Saying that you must read the whole book not pick and choose!

James 2

8 If you fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. 9 But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." But if you do not commit adultery, yet if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and do as those who shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he who has shown no mercy shall have judgment without mercy, and mercy exults over judgment.



14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it? 17 Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble. 20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Do you see how faith worked with his works, and by the works faith was made complete? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God." 24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 10:28 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
 Quoting: asparien


wiggle! wiggle! and dance around.I am finished

Because of the faith and works of these people the book of life is recoded them just like in revelation for their works also

phil chp 4
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/10/2012 10:38 AM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:35 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Paul NEVER preached "Sola Fide", this is Martin Luther's gem, he came up with it 15 centuries later. And another lie
of Martin Luther, his heresy of man is completely depraved.

No true. Humanity has a fallen nature AND we are capable of
good. flower

+ + +

Does Saint Paul have his own "Not by Faith Alone" verse? ohyeah

In Romans 10:9-10 (NKJV) we read:


If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness*, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Plainly read: to be "saved" you must "confess" and "believe". Obviously, "salvation by faith alone" is ruled out here. But surely there is a Protestant answer to this, for now it appears Saint Paul has his own "Not By Faith Alone" verse (since we already know Saint James has his own)!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20541213


Please explain to me then the meaning of Romans Chapter 4. It explicitly stated that it is faith in Christ that is credited as righteousness. It explains how Abraham was declared righteous due to his faith as opposed to his works.

Paul DID teach justification through faith. A confession is a verbal confirmation of an inward belief. It is a necessary part of confirming your faith and cannot be regarded as a work. You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel in trying to make this fit your argument that we must perform a work of some kind in order to be justified.

We have entered a new covenant with the Father whereby the ONLY way to Heaven is through faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus. All previous covenants have become null and void, including the covenant of Works by Law. To declare that the Blood of Christ is not enough to Justify us is pure heresy. This is what you suggest however when you say that faith in the Blood of Christ is insufficient to save us.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
dschis1000

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10/10/2012 10:36 AM

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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Remember Mercy folks. In order to get it we must give it! That is part of the works thing!

That is why the meek, humble (i would infer kind) are given favor in the eyes of the Father.

It grieves my heart to see so much chest beating at times.
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:43 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Do you beLieve that line alone and the shallow meaning you are giving to it? There is a deeper meaning than just what you percieve it to be.I will show you why

THE DEVILS CONFESSED THE NAME AND THEY BELIEVED!


Mark 5:5-7

6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?

All the demons knew Jesus, and recognized Him as Son of the Most High God!

The people of the world don’t want to know Him, and refuse to consider Jesus as the Savior of the world, and as mankind’s Savior-- the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

But, the demons knew Jesus. And, they believed in Jesus, too!

Remember the 7 sons of Sceva, in the Book of Acts, when confronted with an evil spirit? (Acts 19:14)

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

The demons tremble at the name of Jesus Christ, their Judge; and ours, too.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! (James 2:19)

Jesus then commands the evil spirit to depart…

Mark 5:7-8

8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


The devils know who Jesus is and they have no option but to obey his command. They also recognise those who speak with the power and authority that Jesus has granted them through use of his name.

This is the kicker though, the devils recognise when a person does not have faith in Christ and when they are invoking his name without the power or authority to back it up. These are the ones who the devils were able to prevail against.

Recognising Jesus and believing in his finished work are two completely seperate concepts however and you would do well not to confuse them. Those who believe in his finished work are given the authority to use the power of his name. These are the ones who act in Faith to produce good works. It is not the good works that saves them though, it is the faith in Christ that saves and which leads to the good works.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:46 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
While faith without works is most certainly a dead faith, works without faith is just as dead. They are both equally unresponsive to God.
 Quoting: Life and Love


You see faith is expressed through works, If you are truly saved you strive to accomplish those works.

I would recommend everyone to read the ENTIRE book of James he did a really good job of encapsulating stuff.

Bear in mind what our Saviour said the sheep and goats

Blessings
 Quoting: dschis1000


Indeed faith is lived out through works, but it is not the works that save us. Your good works cannot and will not lead you to salvation.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 10:47 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Do you beLieve that line alone and the shallow meaning you are giving to it? There is a deeper meaning than just what you percieve it to be.I will show you why

THE DEVILS CONFESSED THE NAME AND THEY BELIEVED!


Mark 5:5-7

6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped Him. 7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?

All the demons knew Jesus, and recognized Him as Son of the Most High God!

The people of the world don’t want to know Him, and refuse to consider Jesus as the Savior of the world, and as mankind’s Savior-- the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

But, the demons knew Jesus. And, they believed in Jesus, too!

Remember the 7 sons of Sceva, in the Book of Acts, when confronted with an evil spirit? (Acts 19:14)

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

The demons tremble at the name of Jesus Christ, their Judge; and ours, too.

19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! (James 2:19)

Jesus then commands the evil spirit to depart…

Mark 5:7-8

8 For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


The devils know who Jesus is and they have no option but to obey his command. They also recognise those who speak with the power and authority that Jesus has granted them through use of his name.

This is the kicker though, the devils recognise when a person does not have faith in Christ and when they are invoking his name without the power or authority to back it up. These are the ones who the devils were able to prevail against.

Recognising Jesus and believing in his finished work are two completely seperate concepts however and you would do well not to confuse them. Those who believe in his finished work are given the authority to use the power of his name. These are the ones who act in Faith to produce good works. It is not the good works that saves them though, it is the faith in Christ that saves and which leads to the good works.
 Quoting: asparien


exactly my point for showing this..people use theat passage in a shallow way and I purposely showed the context

There are those who say yeah and I believe but they don't do the will of the father

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/10/2012 10:49 AM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:55 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
wiggle! wiggle! and dance around.I am finished

Because of the faith and works of these people the book of life is recoded them just like in revelation for their works also

phil chp 4
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I do not see where in this passage it states that labouring under the Gospel is what leads a person to be justified. These are people who are ALREADY saved who are now acting out their faith.

If we profess to believe in the finished work of Christ and yet REFUSE to show mercy, REFUSE to forgive, REFUSE to act out our faith in the completion of good works, then our confession of faith is false and our faith is regarded as dead in the eyes of our Lord.

We are not to live as carnal christian, who believe that since their sins are paid for that they may sin all the more with impunity. We are to live as Christ did. We are to emulate his example in every way we can to the best of the abilities given to us by the Holy Spirit.

Does that make sense?
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Shamar

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10/10/2012 10:56 AM

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Last Edited by Shamar on 10/10/2012 11:43 AM
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:56 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Remember Mercy folks. In order to get it we must give it! That is part of the works thing!

That is why the meek, humble (i would infer kind) are given favor in the eyes of the Father.

It grieves my heart to see so much chest beating at times.
 Quoting: dschis1000


Please do not see this as chest beating... There are many doctrines that have been taught over the centuries and many points of error have entered into sound teaching. These discussions are essential if we are to sift the wheat from the chaff and recover the jewels of wisdom from the filth of polluted teaching that is presented to us.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Lester
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10/10/2012 10:59 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
From Luke 8, although there are 2 other citations in The Gospels of this "who is my mother and brother?"

19. Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
20. And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21. And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.



Who are Hebrews 12 Bastards?
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.



Partakers Of HIS Holiness.
First Be Partakers Of The Fruit...

To partake, having experience, knowing....


Must Be Born-Again.

Were you boys/girls Ezekiel 36 Born-Agains, you wouldn't be arguing religious dogma or posing as some pseudo hebrew Christian. Your carnality will manifest into hatred once The Age Of Faith is ended and you realize you are on your own, in alienation from God.

Being able to witness means testifying to what you have Seen & Know.


Of course, in John 3:11 Jesus tells Nicodemus "WE have told you what WE Have Seen and Know, yet still you reject OUR Witness."...

Knee to knee with Christ Jesus and still ol' Nic's carnal-heart would not accept Jesus' Witness.


Pity that you are so bound up in self you can't/won't Trust God or find conviction In HIS Truth.

Yet, God's Will Is Always Perfect!
So your alienation is part of Laodicean self-will and proof of why Jesus Witnesses in Revelation 3 that you are lukewarm.

Lukewarm! HE Wishes you were either hot or cold.
You guys just need a bit more heat, some conviction to take action "Lift Up The Son Of Man" John 3:14 to allow God to Deliver you from your carnality.

Of course, you won't hear this, like all Hebrews 12 Bastards you reject HIS Chastisement.

Yet, weren't we all chastised by our earthly fathers?
Isn't chastisement and devotion to shaping a child or young person a sign of LOVE?

Really figure God Has Called your heart?
Then why not Take Action.

It is the "work" of making your surrender that "Faith w/o works is dead" refers to.

Got to make your Leap Of Faith; surrender Unto The Father, to manifest your heart Unto HIM, to answer God's Call Upon your heart...


Drowning in your carnality, yet you love and seek the conjecture you make of The Bible.

You would be lots better off to stick to The Gospels and leave Paul alone until you have been Born-Again...
asparien

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10/10/2012 10:59 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Have you ever read the book of Enoch? The book of Enoch makes it extremely clear that there is an ELECT ONE who is a WORKER for AHYH, and that this ELECTED ONE, (which in the text only means he was elected for a certain work), will be working for a certain GROUP of people who CALL out to HIM. HOWEVER – And this is key!!!!!! AHYH says to Enoch, that THESE ones who FOLLOW the elect one, are UN-righteous, and that the ELECT Ones job is to DEAL with them in some capacity, although the text doesn’t go into that particular detail. However, other sections of Enoch continue this idea, and it is extremely clear that these people are a large people and that AHYH considers them to be WHOLLY unrighteous!

Further, just as AHYH to Enoch tells us that these who follow the Elect One are unrighteous, Enoch is also told that there are OTHERS who know and follow AHYH, and that these ones are called The Righteous.

To really understand what this is saying, a study of "righteousness" taken from the Torah is necessary.
 Quoting: Shamar


I have read the book of Enoch and have yet to determine the validity of its teaching. I am not convinced that it is God-breathed revelation as I consider the Bible to be. I have approached the Holy Spirit with this matter in prayer and have not yet received confirmation on the topic. Until that time I will reserve judgement and refrain from commenting on it.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Anonymous Coward
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10/10/2012 11:00 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
 Quoting: asparien


Have you ever read the book of Enoch? The book of Enoch makes it extremely clear that there is an ELECT ONE who is a WORKER for AHYH, and that this ELECTED ONE, (which in the text only means he was elected for a certain work), will be working for a certain GROUP of people who CALL out to HIM. HOWEVER – And this is key!!!!!! AHYH says to Enoch, that THESE ones who FOLLOW the elect one, are UN-righteous, and that the ELECT Ones job is to DEAL with them in some capacity, although the text doesn’t go into that particular detail. However, other sections of Enoch continue this idea, and it is extremely clear that these people are a large people and that AHYH considers them to be WHOLLY unrighteous!

Further, just as AHYH to Enoch tells us that these who follow the Elect One are unrighteous, Enoch is also told that there are OTHERS who know and follow AHYH, and that these ones are called The Righteous.

To really understand what this is saying, a study of "righteousness" taken from the Torah is necessary.
 Quoting: Shamar


Are you actually saying that those who follow Jesus are the "unrighteous" ones?
Shamar

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10/10/2012 11:02 AM

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Last Edited by Shamar on 10/10/2012 11:43 AM
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Shamar

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10/10/2012 11:03 AM

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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
 Quoting: asparien


Have you ever read the book of Enoch? The book of Enoch makes it extremely clear that there is an ELECT ONE who is a WORKER for AHYH, and that this ELECTED ONE, (which in the text only means he was elected for a certain work), will be working for a certain GROUP of people who CALL out to HIM. HOWEVER – And this is key!!!!!! AHYH says to Enoch, that THESE ones who FOLLOW the elect one, are UN-righteous, and that the ELECT Ones job is to DEAL with them in some capacity, although the text doesn’t go into that particular detail. However, other sections of Enoch continue this idea, and it is extremely clear that these people are a large people and that AHYH considers them to be WHOLLY unrighteous!

Further, just as AHYH to Enoch tells us that these who follow the Elect One are unrighteous, Enoch is also told that there are OTHERS who know and follow AHYH, and that these ones are called The Righteous.

To really understand what this is saying, a study of "righteousness" taken from the Torah is necessary.
 Quoting: Shamar


Are you actually saying that those who follow Jesus are the "unrighteous" ones?
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


I didn't say it. Enoch said it.
Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you. You can feel the same life deep within every other human and every other creature. You look beyond the veil of form and separation. This is the realization of oneness. This is love. What is God? The Eternal One Life underneath all the forms of life. What is love? To feel the presence of that One Life deep within yourself and within all creatures. To be it. Therefore, all love is the love of God.

Death is a stripping away of all that is not you. The secret of life is to die before you die - and find that there is no death.
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 11:04 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
wiggle! wiggle! and dance around.I am finished

Because of the faith and works of these people the book of life is recoded them just like in revelation for their works also

phil chp 4
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I do not see where in this passage it states that labouring under the Gospel is what leads a person to be justified. These are people who are ALREADY saved who are now acting out their faith.

If we profess to believe in the finished work of Christ and yet REFUSE to show mercy, REFUSE to forgive, REFUSE to act out our faith in the completion of good works, then our confession of faith is false and our faith is regarded as dead in the eyes of our Lord.

We are not to live as carnal christian, who believe that since their sins are paid for that they may sin all the more with impunity. We are to live as Christ did. We are to emulate his example in every way we can to the best of the abilities given to us by the Holy Spirit.

Does that make sense?
 Quoting: asparien


you continue to fragment the order of the messages from a whole if you go back to what you said earlier about the book of life .This was a response to your denial. not a response about what you just twisted it to be
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Lester
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10/10/2012 11:07 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Remember Mercy folks. In order to get it we must give it! That is part of the works thing!

That is why the meek, humble (i would infer kind) are given favor in the eyes of the Father.

It grieves my heart to see so much chest beating at times.
 Quoting: dschis1000


Please do not see this as chest beating... There are many doctrines that have been taught over the centuries and many points of error have entered into sound teaching. These discussions are essential if we are to sift the wheat from the chaff and recover the jewels of wisdom from the filth of polluted teaching that is presented to us.
 Quoting: asparien


Only Relationship With God which comes from being Ezekiel 36 Born-Again will Deliver what you seek.

Why so stubborn and committed to self?

Trust God and surrender Unto HIM and you will Know what you seek.

You will also understand HIS Perfection and see all you were in error of. Carnality and your efforts to be meek or perfect is the great deception. Anything of-self will be a failure.

Only when you experience sufficient brokenness to capitulate and make your surrender will you Know God's Victory.

Of course, as you admitted on another thread, you want to keep and indulge in your sinful ways; albeit God Being Willing To Deliver you from sin and Enable you to Keep HIS Judgments and Do Them....

26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


If these two verses from Ezekiel 36 were True in your life, your discussion here would be much different.

Adios carnalitos!
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 11:08 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
 Quoting: asparien


wiggle! wiggle! and dance around.I am finished

Because of the faith and works of these people the book of life is recoded them just like in revelation for their works also

phil chp 4
And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


THIS> do not take bits and pieces of the post and try to swing it to justify your opinion
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1106916
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10/10/2012 11:08 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
...


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
 Quoting: asparien


Have you ever read the book of Enoch? The book of Enoch makes it extremely clear that there is an ELECT ONE who is a WORKER for AHYH, and that this ELECTED ONE, (which in the text only means he was elected for a certain work), will be working for a certain GROUP of people who CALL out to HIM. HOWEVER – And this is key!!!!!! AHYH says to Enoch, that THESE ones who FOLLOW the elect one, are UN-righteous, and that the ELECT Ones job is to DEAL with them in some capacity, although the text doesn’t go into that particular detail. However, other sections of Enoch continue this idea, and it is extremely clear that these people are a large people and that AHYH considers them to be WHOLLY unrighteous!

Further, just as AHYH to Enoch tells us that these who follow the Elect One are unrighteous, Enoch is also told that there are OTHERS who know and follow AHYH, and that these ones are called The Righteous.

To really understand what this is saying, a study of "righteousness" taken from the Torah is necessary.
 Quoting: Shamar


Are you actually saying that those who follow Jesus are the "unrighteous" ones?
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


I didn't say it. Enoch said it.
 Quoting: Shamar


WOW. I'm speechless. If you believe that, then you need to tear out the entire NT of your bible because the cross is of no value to you at all.

I"d like the paragraph number and verse that says this because I've read all 3 books of enoch many times and have not read that, in fact I've read just the opposite.
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 11:09 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
seminarian you need to really pull your head from whereever it is and wake up.Revelation is the end time remember

rev chapter 20

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, *according to their works*.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: *and they were judged every man according to their works*
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
 Quoting: asparien


Have you ever read the book of Enoch? The book of Enoch makes it extremely clear that there is an ELECT ONE who is a WORKER for AHYH, and that this ELECTED ONE, (which in the text only means he was elected for a certain work), will be working for a certain GROUP of people who CALL out to HIM. HOWEVER – And this is key!!!!!! AHYH says to Enoch, that THESE ones who FOLLOW the elect one, are UN-righteous, and that the ELECT Ones job is to DEAL with them in some capacity, although the text doesn’t go into that particular detail. However, other sections of Enoch continue this idea, and it is extremely clear that these people are a large people and that AHYH considers them to be WHOLLY unrighteous!

Further, just as AHYH to Enoch tells us that these who follow the Elect One are unrighteous, Enoch is also told that there are OTHERS who know and follow AHYH, and that these ones are called The Righteous.

To really understand what this is saying, a study of "righteousness" taken from the Torah is necessary.
 Quoting: Shamar


Are you actually saying that those who follow Jesus are the "unrighteous" ones?
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


did you have your coffee yet? why will you insinuate such?
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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Australia
10/10/2012 11:11 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
you continue to fragment the order of the messages from a whole if you go back to what you said earlier about the book of life .This was a response to your denial. not a response about what you just twisted it to be
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I do not deny that faith without works is dead.

I will refuse to accept however that we must perform a work of some kind to be saved. It is by faith and faith alone that we are justified and made right with God. Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Faith in the Blood he shed for us. Faith in the complete fulfillment of the Law upon the cross of Calvary.

It is ONLY faith in Jesus that can save us. Once saved, we are to perform the good works that faith compels us to.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Anonymous Coward
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10/10/2012 11:12 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
...


Again, I repeat that I am not a seminarian. Why do you persist in attaching this false label to me?

These passages you refer to in Revelation are the description of Judgement of those who have rejected Christ and thus chosen to be judged by their own works. That is how this whole thing works. If we accept Christ, we are covered by grace. If we reject Christ, we are judged according to our works.

By this point, all who were dead in Christ have been given new life, the raptured ones are glorified, the tribulation saints came to life in Rev 20:4 and reigned with Christ. Those who have embraced Christ as their saviour are all with him already and this judgement is not for them. Unless you wish to argue that we can be judged after we have already been glorified and given our new bodies?

Context is again the key to correct interpretation of these passages. Are there any other passages you want to twist in an effort to support your baseless theory?
 Quoting: asparien


Have you ever read the book of Enoch? The book of Enoch makes it extremely clear that there is an ELECT ONE who is a WORKER for AHYH, and that this ELECTED ONE, (which in the text only means he was elected for a certain work), will be working for a certain GROUP of people who CALL out to HIM. HOWEVER – And this is key!!!!!! AHYH says to Enoch, that THESE ones who FOLLOW the elect one, are UN-righteous, and that the ELECT Ones job is to DEAL with them in some capacity, although the text doesn’t go into that particular detail. However, other sections of Enoch continue this idea, and it is extremely clear that these people are a large people and that AHYH considers them to be WHOLLY unrighteous!

Further, just as AHYH to Enoch tells us that these who follow the Elect One are unrighteous, Enoch is also told that there are OTHERS who know and follow AHYH, and that these ones are called The Righteous.

To really understand what this is saying, a study of "righteousness" taken from the Torah is necessary.
 Quoting: Shamar


Are you actually saying that those who follow Jesus are the "unrighteous" ones?
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


did you have your coffee yet? why will you insinuate such?
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I'm not insinuating anything, that's what Shamar said. Didn't you read her comment?
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 11:15 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
...


Have you ever read the book of Enoch? The book of Enoch makes it extremely clear that there is an ELECT ONE who is a WORKER for AHYH, and that this ELECTED ONE, (which in the text only means he was elected for a certain work), will be working for a certain GROUP of people who CALL out to HIM. HOWEVER – And this is key!!!!!! AHYH says to Enoch, that THESE ones who FOLLOW the elect one, are UN-righteous, and that the ELECT Ones job is to DEAL with them in some capacity, although the text doesn’t go into that particular detail. However, other sections of Enoch continue this idea, and it is extremely clear that these people are a large people and that AHYH considers them to be WHOLLY unrighteous!

Further, just as AHYH to Enoch tells us that these who follow the Elect One are unrighteous, Enoch is also told that there are OTHERS who know and follow AHYH, and that these ones are called The Righteous.

To really understand what this is saying, a study of "righteousness" taken from the Torah is necessary.
 Quoting: Shamar


Are you actually saying that those who follow Jesus are the "unrighteous" ones?
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


did you have your coffee yet? why will you insinuate such?
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I'm not insinuating anything, that's what Shamar said. Didn't you read her comment?
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


shamar which book of enoch are you reading ..there are fake ones and one that is good..the slavonic and another version is used by pagans and talmudists for sorcery..

The one done by RH CHARLES is the correct one
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 11:18 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
you continue to fragment the order of the messages from a whole if you go back to what you said earlier about the book of life .This was a response to your denial. not a response about what you just twisted it to be
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I do not deny that faith without works is dead.

I will refuse to accept however that we must perform a work of some kind to be saved. It is by faith and faith alone that we are justified and made right with God. Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Faith in the Blood he shed for us. Faith in the complete fulfillment of the Law upon the cross of Calvary.

It is ONLY faith in Jesus that can save us. Once saved, we are to perform the good works that faith compels us to.
 Quoting: asparien


you must excercise the works the father expects of us love your neighbor vist the homelesss obey the commands forgiveness kindess love your enemies ..that is the works and the fruit of the spirit..Paul work was to preach and he was called to do this..The father gives us gifts and if you do not excersice these gifts to win people over by getting out and doing then you are a falure to his cause.

Messiah carried out the deeds of his father by his works and faith in the father

If you cant get this then you are shallow and lost

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/10/2012 11:21 AM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/10/2012 11:24 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
Please do not see this as chest beating... There are many doctrines that have been taught over the centuries and many points of error have entered into sound teaching. These discussions are essential if we are to sift the wheat from the chaff and recover the jewels of wisdom from the filth of polluted teaching that is presented to us.
 Quoting: asparien


Only Relationship With God which comes from being Ezekiel 36 Born-Again will Deliver what you seek.

Why so stubborn and committed to self?

Trust God and surrender Unto HIM and you will Know what you seek.

You will also understand HIS Perfection and see all you were in error of. Carnality and your efforts to be meek or perfect is the great deception. Anything of-self will be a failure.

Only when you experience sufficient brokenness to capitulate and make your surrender will you Know God's Victory.

Of course, as you admitted on another thread, you want to keep and indulge in your sinful ways; albeit God Being Willing To Deliver you from sin and Enable you to Keep HIS Judgments and Do Them....

26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


If these two verses from Ezekiel 36 were True in your life, your discussion here would be much different.

Adios carnalitos!
 Quoting: Lester 1146587


Hi Lester, so nice of you to join us :)

Ezekiel 36 references the nation of Israel in time of trouble. It does not refer to those of us under the new covenant of grace. These verses are taken out of context and presented in a way in which they were not intended.

Having said that, upon acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, he does indeed give us a new heart and place his Spirit within us. We are a new creation in him and his laws are written on our heart. This all occurs when we believe with our heart and confess with our tongue that he is Lord.

Acceptance of Jesus Christ IS submitting to God and his plan for our lives.

Not once on any previous thread did I state that I intended on keeping to or indulging in sinful ways. You are gravely mistaken if that is your claim.

God has ALREADY delivered us from sin and has provided, by way of the Holy Spirit, the means to defeat temptation when it plagues us.
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...
Anonymous Coward
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10/10/2012 11:26 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
i will attempt to be honest:

it is virtually impossible to obey all that is commanded of us in the bible.

not that temptation/sin is so compelling/alluring

so much as the amout of stress, fatigue, and disorientation that accompanies living under the whole law:

we are demanded by the bible to

1. pray for 24 hours a day (...pray wthout ceasing..)
2. to never think evil thoughts
(bring all thoughts into servitude to christ)
3. to concentrate only on god and his will
(let your eye be single)
4. to follow in jesus' footsteps even to death
(pick up the cross and follow me)
5. to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, tithe, heal the sick, donate all our possessions to charity, fast, watch, pray, and preach/teach/etc......


this list has over a thousand points


thank you god for shortening it to just two:

1. love the one god with all your heart soul mind and strength
2. love your neighbors (including enemies) as yourself.
Neim-Ya'shar (OP)

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10/10/2012 11:26 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
YOU HARDENED OF HEART AND STIFFNECKED WHEN WILL YOU HUMBLE YOURSELVES AND LET GO OF YOUR PRIDE THAT YOUR EYES BE OPENED!

Last Edited by Neim-Ya'shar on 10/10/2012 11:30 AM
1 But these took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
43 And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
44 For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
45 For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
46 Then dwelt they there until the latter time; and now when they shall begin to come,
:knoup:
asparien

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10/10/2012 11:27 AM
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Re: PAGAN CHRISTIANS WHO TEACH FALSEHOOD OF THE LAW,FAITH AND WORKS
you continue to fragment the order of the messages from a whole if you go back to what you said earlier about the book of life .This was a response to your denial. not a response about what you just twisted it to be
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


I do not deny that faith without works is dead.

I will refuse to accept however that we must perform a work of some kind to be saved. It is by faith and faith alone that we are justified and made right with God. Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Faith in the Blood he shed for us. Faith in the complete fulfillment of the Law upon the cross of Calvary.

It is ONLY faith in Jesus that can save us. Once saved, we are to perform the good works that faith compels us to.
 Quoting: asparien


you must excercise the works the father expects of us love your neighbor vist the homelesss obey the commands forgiveness kindess love your enemies ..that is the works and the fruit of the spirit..Paul work was to preach and he was called to do this..The father gives us gifts and if you do not excersice these gifts to win people over by getting out and doing then you are a falure to his cause.

Messiah carried out the deeds of his father by his works and faith in the father

If you cant get this then you are shallow and lost
 Quoting: Neim-Ya'shar


Hang on, hang on... what point are you actually trying to make? I don't see anything different in what you just said and what you were responding to. You did not contest that we are saved by faith and you are reiterating that faith without works is dead.

I don't get it...
Yes I believe that God is real, that Jesus died for us and that we can choose to accept it or not...

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