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God Believers - Questions About The Absurd

 
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/10/2012 12:37 AM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
God makes all things new. A lifetime of torture will pale in comparison to what He has in store for us.
 Quoting: ClassicHen


Doesn't explain why one person suffers that torture while another lives comfortably. Is there a reason? If so what could that reason be? See you're not actually answering the questions.
William_the_Bloody

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10/10/2012 09:03 AM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
You almost had me in the first part but we're now talking about previous lives and transferred Karma. Even if I bought this explanation there remain questions: (1)Why are evil people evading their PRESENT LIFE bad KARMA? I mean - wouldn't it make more sense to get them in their evil life instead of letting them enjoy themselves and then punishing them horrifically in a later life? (2) Your explanation evades random destruction - like the boy who dies from an accidental blow to his head. Or are you saying god in some instances will let EVIL "FREE WILL" PEOPLE inflict retribution but in some cases he'll just drop a tree on them himself?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737

God doesn't do anything in this realm; does not intercede to mete out punishment. Karma takes care of all. Karma may also work in-between lives in the Astral Plane/Purgatory, again beyond anyone's need for immediacy or satisfaction from our mere perspective.

The take-away from this is it is all *extremely* fair and just, we just may not see it because our perspective is extremely limited or biased based on our circumstances, lack of understanding or bitterness.

I can't cover every way in which Karma operates, but I've given you enough to slueth out just about any scenario and have a pretty good guess how/when justice prevails.
Ah so comfort and material satisfaction (like a good meal) is actually bad for our souls? I mean I had a nice steak just an hour ago and I suddenly feel guilty.
 Quoting: op


You sound cheeky here, which is fine. Sense of Humor is good, you'll need it.

That said, how you feel about your steak is your business. I had one with melted gorgonzola last night.

Material life comes with necessary evils and built-in negative Karma.

The perfect spiritual life is unobtainable in material existence by definition.

All will fail and all will find their way to destruction unless they take the "get out of Karma free" card offered to them.
Mandevilla

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10/10/2012 09:34 AM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
The absurd part to me is that the omniscient creator knew what was going to happen from the beginning and allowed it to happen---if you believe in the God of the bible in the first place.

To say he didn't is to doubt his power.

According to believers, he knows all and sees all right down to the number of hairs on your head.

So he apparently knew what path his creation was going to take all the way down to starving, abused, dying children and let it happen anyway.
So much for millstones...

Why would a god create such imperfection?
Why wouldn't a god create a perfect world of love. And just forget about Eden, because if god is all-knowing he knew what was going to happen there.
Why, if he loves us, do we have to suffer as some sort of test?
We are supposedly his children and no matter the number crying out for help, he does nothing. I understand that some requests would get no consideration or a "no", but what about suffering, tortured souls begging with all their hearts for their god (father) to help them? What kind of "father" could say "no"?

Sounds like neglect, lack of caring or just simple nonexistence.

Last Edited by Mandevilla on 10/10/2012 09:43 AM
Keep2theCode

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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
The absurd part to me is that the omniscient creator knew what was going to happen from the beginning and allowed it to happen---if you believe in the God of the bible in the first place.

To say he didn't is to doubt his power.

According to believers, he knows all and sees all right down to the number of hairs on your head.

So he apparently knew what path his creation was going to take all the way down to starving, abused, dying children and let it happen anyway.
So much for millstones...

Why would a god create such imperfection?
Why wouldn't a god create a perfect world of love. And just forget about Eden, because if god is all-knowing he knew what was going to happen there.
Why, if he loves us, do we have to suffer as some sort of test?
We are supposedly his children and no matter the number crying out for help, he does nothing. I understand that some requests would get no consideration or a "no", but what about suffering, tortured souls begging with all their hearts for their god (father) to help them? What kind of "father" could say "no"?

Sounds like neglect, lack of caring or just simple nonexistence.
 Quoting: Mandevilla

You proceed from a false assumption...

It never occurred to you that there might be more to this life than meets the eye, that this is kind of a chess game pitting free will against compassion, a battle of wits between God and Satan. And based on this "only what I can see in front of my nose" approach, you make yourself God's judge and jury, demanding that your own creator bow to you and report to you or you'll hate him. And you think yourself superior.

Here's another scenario:

God created human beings in his own image, meaning sentient beings with free will. Only free-willed beings could possibly love God, because love must be freely given, and there must be an option not to love. To create beings that would never reject God would be to create robots or puppets. To only create them if they all chose love would be to only move the line in the sand, not circumvent the problem: the unavoidable fact that love involves risk. And since God IS love, not even he could escape his own nature and create beings who could only give a false or forced love.

So God had the right to create people, and he had the right to make them sentient beings with a genuine choice. What they did with that choice is not his fault, but ours. And if you didn't ask to be born, then remember that neither did God. And if you say he should never have created us, then you are saying God can't do what he wants, which makes me ask who you think you are.

So Satan thought he had God cornered when he got Adam and Eve to sin. He tricked them into giving him their world, which is why it's so messed up. This is Satan's world, Satan's kingdom, and the real question is why anything good ever happens. The fact that it does is evidence that Satan is limited by God. And what gives God the right to limit him is the ransom paid by Jesus for the human race. He paid the blood Satan demanded, and when Satan's "lease" is up, Jesus will return. With a vengeance.

And if that isn't good enough for you, nothing will be.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Well there is another point of view besides the view of the murderer from their point of seeing.

The view of the murdered from their point of seeing.

These two points are already past tense and will be judged for what they are held responsible for in all their past tense.

One the murdered my actually go into the same hellish judgment as the one what murdered them goes into. For we our selves have no inward knowledge of either's soul.

Or the murdered passes on to a life with out end to it. One of no more tears or pain or dying one with their God.

The murderer keeps on going for some short time and lives their short time in pleasure their shame and damnation.

But all along the time span both of these were living and dying.

There is the point of view being tested by observing what is good and what is bad in their existence they are in.

These third party viewers can be one of pure apathy and care nothing for what they see is evil so long as it does not afflict them. They will give nothing to stop it or prevent it. So long as it is not them they care not for others at all. So they add to the do nothing about it others who do not even bother to speak out on behalf of the victim. These will see the same end in their life time maybe slower the death and sicker the death and more pain full the death. They may even get worse the treatment from others who could care less about their suffering.

Then there are the ones that will not have apathy, but
instead a self satisfaction from seeing another get what they feel they deserved, murdered.
The reason they relish or sarcastically get off on the paybacks to others is nothing more than inner hate of the victim. The hate could have been just because of the victims color or sex or religion.
So this one also is as guilty as the murderer that raged out their murderous desires upon their victim.
The only difference is the snickering one keeps their hate concealed from others and continues on. They go on unto their own judgment for that very mind and heart they had and kept. That enjoyed seeing others suffer they hated also.

Then there is the ones who hate what they see and it enrages them to have to see it.....and be cast into a world where such as this is increasing all around them.

These blaspheme God and gnash their teeth at God and turn their hate towards God and all those in heaven and all that is in earth linked to this God. These are failing their test and trial. They are failing because they do not have a world the way they want it. They have not what they want. This brings out a very hateful being to blame God for their own disliking the world where evil and evil hate and murderers and liars and blasphemers are. They want all the evil gone and heaven on earth. They do not want to wait for it nor die them selves, Because they are all about this world which is all they have and want.
In the core of this one lays not really a care for the one murdered as much as the probability they also will suffer in a world full of evil doers. They are already suffering having to see them or know about them. These pollute their world.

The murderer will stop and repent or enter damnation.

The victim will enter what ever they did and the way they went in this world. If they chose the narrow way the right way they will enter life. So they lost not by dying but gained immeasurable when they did. This life in this world was their time in the valley of decision..they could have made it at the worst hour and end of their life and still gained thou they themselves walked unworthy up unto their hour of affliction. The hour brought them to the seriousness of their life and death and they cried for help and mercy unto God. They shall be saved.

We should not allow evil to draw us out to tempt God or to harden our faces and hearts towards Him.
Because if we do we are been devoured and destroyed by the same evil...That destroyed the victim and the murdered.

You will have all kinds of talk about the world is not bad man is not bad ....and your own mind is seeing the bad and making it bad.

This have not been given their cup of suffering yet but they will receive it in their life time here. Maybe right after they die.

One thing is for sure once evil abounds and is not restrained and put in check. None repent of their evil they do and many more take it up as well.
These will have to be taken in and up by the evil they took unto them selves. They will be delivered wrath upon their heads sore grievous wrath. They will be destroyed.

Think not that they will not enter their destruction that is foolish. And they them selves will get more the foolish when their sudden destruction does not come upon them. more and more will go that way because nothing was happening against that way or them..
It is like a looter smashing into stores running to a riot or natural disaster zone to rob people...
Because it is open game and free for them to do it and get away with it is a big possibility...

These things like that draw them to it....having and seeing they way is available and clear for them to go into it and get away with it.


What they are not seeing is this very way was no coincidence and they were neither to have the mind and heart they had...perfectly in them and evolved in them for the moments like that which lay just ahead for them..

To enter into and fill up their evil reserved against them for their wrath to come.

This is what is referred to as vessels fit for destruction.
They are being fashioned/ made/ set forth and out to become fit for their destruction...

They are to foolish and blind to see this...
Nothing is by coincidence...
It is by design.

It is they way and path of destruction for all those who Enter into it....these are lead into it.
Never seeing their lead.
Never seeing their captivity.
They will not ever see it because sight has been blotted out from their minds and hearts to see their own destruction.

And these fools will lure many onto the same wide road that leads all to hell. Because they walk it unto their destruction that waits them at the end of the way.

So other fools see not that end either and will run swiftly their feet into the same damnation.

They were also void and left to be fitted for their own destruction and damnation..


Many say no there is no such rewards out there like that ...no their is no such destruction out there.

These are fools.

But never think for one minute this evil will go with out hideous suffering and rendering in their end..they will get worse than what they gave others and lead others unto.

So when you see this be careful not to be taken into it and be hardened by it.....neither delight in such or fob it off as the way the world is.

This evil has no long days....

Do not ever think their days will be long on this earth.

For they dishonor not only their own bodies but their mother and their father..........so no they will have only their days shortened.


They will enter widespread destruction faster and faster the more they evolve. Sudden destruction will consume the flesh off their bones.

Fear God know He will not be mocked...and turn to His mercy instead...call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ while the day is to do so. He will attend and tend to His own. He will hear them before they even speak.
William_the_Bloody

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10/10/2012 11:20 AM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
The absurd part to me is that the omniscient creator knew what was going to happen from the beginning and allowed it to happen---if you believe in the God of the bible in the first place.

To say he didn't is to doubt his power.

According to believers, he knows all and sees all right down to the number of hairs on your head.

So he apparently knew what path his creation was going to take all the way down to starving, abused, dying children and let it happen anyway.
So much for millstones...

Why would a god create such imperfection?
Why wouldn't a god create a perfect world of love. And just forget about Eden, because if god is all-knowing he knew what was going to happen there.
Why, if he loves us, do we have to suffer as some sort of test?
We are supposedly his children and no matter the number crying out for help, he does nothing. I understand that some requests would get no consideration or a "no", but what about suffering, tortured souls begging with all their hearts for their god (father) to help them? What kind of "father" could say "no"?

Sounds like neglect, lack of caring or just simple nonexistence.
 Quoting: Mandevilla


You have a mish-mash of understanding that would logically lead one to the conclusion that it's all absurd.

In short:

The God who knows all is also all of us in timelessness. It is a totality where past present and future are simultaneous.

This God does not "create" because it's already over, right now, and later already happened.

This is not the God of Eden.

The God of Eden creates Earth and Humans out of pre-existing material universe structure, which is already starting out with Duality in balance, the potential for good and evil already inherent in linear time.

Spirit cannot be trapped in matter, the way we are, until the duality reaches an imbalance, and negative polarity dominates.

Therefore, Cosmic accidents operating on Universal laws inadvertantly create Material life and the fall into Evil. Nobody "did it" it just happened, although we were warned and chose to experience this unique imbalance anyway.

The God of "Good" exists in positive Polarity and cannot dwell in imbalanced Earth, lest Goodness itself becomes swallowed by Evil.

The God of Good operates under Positive Polarity principals like Free Will .
Mandevilla

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10/10/2012 11:43 AM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
I realize it's up to us to "behave" ourselves and that's all about free-will.

Also, which of the 10 commandments could not be covered under the golden rule--which is the only one I follow because, to me, it covers everything.

I have nothing against Christians. I was raised Southern Baptist.
As I got older, it all added up less and less for me and I have lots of questions.
And to the one poster above--I certainly don't feel superior to anyone.
The only superiority complex I see is in hard-core believers thumping away and telling everyone else they're going to hell which falls under "judge not", right??
The ones who think they've made it and others haven't when they're really in no position to know anything for sure seem to be in the most danger, if the danger exists, I think.

I do believe we were created most likely as hominids and then came the intervention. Imo, there's some evidence of this in the bible.

I'm searching for answers and voicing opinions and questions like most everyone else.

Last Edited by Mandevilla on 10/10/2012 11:45 AM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Evil was our choice, not his...who are you to question God?
Yes, our world is condemned (read Gen.3), and it is evil. If God were to abolish evil you would never seek him (he cursed the ground, Genesis 3:17). There is a purpose, and a plan at work, so they we may be reconciled with him. His son shed his blood for the remission of our sin (Matthew 26), so there is a glorious way out (John 3:16).
Accept Christ, and you can avoid man's most ominous evil, and that is death. He defeated death, so that we may have everlasting life.

God is not to blame, as he gave us freewill, thus tying his own hands. So, dodn't shake your fist at God. He will renew all things...

Psalm 14:1 Only a fool say's there is no God...
 Quoting: Nobody... 967366


Fair enough...

Do sexually abused young children have a choice? Their free will was violated.

How does God justify this? Who's to blame?
xxx
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10/10/2012 11:50 AM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
expect absurd answers in response.
Mandevilla

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10/10/2012 12:01 PM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Evil was our choice, not his...who are you to question God?
Yes, our world is condemned (read Gen.3), and it is evil. If God were to abolish evil you would never seek him (he cursed the ground, Genesis 3:17). There is a purpose, and a plan at work, so they we may be reconciled with him. His son shed his blood for the remission of our sin (Matthew 26), so there is a glorious way out (John 3:16).
Accept Christ, and you can avoid man's most ominous evil, and that is death. He defeated death, so that we may have everlasting life.

God is not to blame, as he gave us freewill, thus tying his own hands. So, dodn't shake your fist at God. He will renew all things...

Psalm 14:1 Only a fool say's there is no God...
 Quoting: Nobody... 967366


Fair enough...

Do sexually abused young children have a choice? Their free will was violated.

How does God justify this? Who's to blame?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20793638


And this is one of the questions no one can/will directly answer.
I want to know.

This is the kind of situation that can make you doubt.
If God wants us to believe why can't we have answers?
It would be so simple, but instead we get perpetual tests of worth?
Most of us would never treat our own children this way. We would hate our parents.
Why is it worshipped as righteous when the possible ultimate father does it??? When he fails to protect the most vulnerable? The ones most likely begging for his help.
Help that never comes.
Plagues and destruction of cities full of "sinners" way back when and nothing to save suffering children now????
Keep2theCode

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10/10/2012 12:02 PM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
I realize it's up to us to "behave" ourselves and that's all about free-will.

Also, which of the 10 commandments could not be covered under the golden rule--which is the only one I follow because, to me, it covers everything.

I have nothing against Christians. I was raised Southern Baptist.
As I got older, it all added up less and less for me and I have lots of questions.
And to the one poster above--I certainly don't feel superior to anyone.
The only superiority complex I see is in hard-core believers thumping away and telling everyone else they're going to hell which falls under "judge not", right??
The ones who think they've made it and others haven't when they're really in no position to know anything for sure seem to be in the most danger, if the danger exists, I think.

I do believe we were created most likely as hominids and then came the intervention. Imo, there's some evidence of this in the bible.

I'm searching for answers and voicing opinions and questions like most everyone else.
 Quoting: Mandevilla

The NT does say that love for God and people is the sum of the old law, because "love does no harm to its neighbor". No Gentiles were ever under the old law anyway.

My ref. to feeling superior came only from the belief that God must answer to us. There is no way to have this attitude and call it humble. I do cringe at many fellow believers when they display complete ignorance of "the law of love".

As for knowing, many "know for sure" that we evolved, even though a truly scientific method cannot be applied to past events. But they would never be accused of arrogance for believing it to be true, nor for telling everyone everywhere that they must believe it too. So I don't accept the same kind of criticism against Christians for believing something is true. Arrogance would be if someone wants preferential treatment for their genetic qualities or behavioral styles.

It's good to seek answers, but be careful not to either accept or reject them without a thorough cross-examination. Too many people hear one side, then the other, then make a judgment; they need to go back and forth many times to make sure they've gotten all the pertinent data and arguments. Granted, many Christians do the poorest job of stating their case, but so also do many non-Christians; it's human frailty.

Do sexually abused young children have a choice? Their free will was violated.

How does God justify this? Who's to blame?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20793638


God only holds people to account for what they are capable of comprehending. He will avenge them.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Mandevilla

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10/10/2012 12:12 PM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
I realize it's up to us to "behave" ourselves and that's all about free-will.

Also, which of the 10 commandments could not be covered under the golden rule--which is the only one I follow because, to me, it covers everything.

I have nothing against Christians. I was raised Southern Baptist.
As I got older, it all added up less and less for me and I have lots of questions.
And to the one poster above--I certainly don't feel superior to anyone.
The only superiority complex I see is in hard-core believers thumping away and telling everyone else they're going to hell which falls under "judge not", right??
The ones who think they've made it and others haven't when they're really in no position to know anything for sure seem to be in the most danger, if the danger exists, I think.

I do believe we were created most likely as hominids and then came the intervention. Imo, there's some evidence of this in the bible.

I'm searching for answers and voicing opinions and questions like most everyone else.
 Quoting: Mandevilla

The NT does say that love for God and people is the sum of the old law, because "love does no harm to its neighbor". No Gentiles were ever under the old law anyway.

My ref. to feeling superior came only from the belief that God must answer to us. There is no way to have this attitude and call it humble. I do cringe at many fellow believers when they display complete ignorance of "the law of love".

As for knowing, many "know for sure" that we evolved, even though a truly scientific method cannot be applied to past events. But they would never be accused of arrogance for believing it to be true, nor for telling everyone everywhere that they must believe it too. So I don't accept the same kind of criticism against Christians for believing something is true. Arrogance would be if someone wants preferential treatment for their genetic qualities or behavioral styles.

It's good to seek answers, but be careful not to either accept or reject them without a thorough cross-examination. Too many people hear one side, then the other, then make a judgment; they need to go back and forth many times to make sure they've gotten all the pertinent data and arguments. Granted, many Christians do the poorest job of stating their case, but so also do many non-Christians; it's human frailty.

Do sexually abused young children have a choice? Their free will was violated.

How does God justify this? Who's to blame?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20793638


God only holds people to account for what they are capable of comprehending. He will avenge them.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Thank you.
I admit I'm confused and I'm back and forth over the whole issue.
I pray, but sometimes I don't know who I'm praying to.
I usually address it to "whoever has our best interests at heart". Maybe it's God.
I think basically, I believe, but so many things feel contradictory.
One thing I've found is that I can't just turn my back and walk away after spending my childhood in church. I guess that's where the confusion sets in.
The intervention theory of creation + tweaking makes sense, but only leads me to more questions.
Keep2theCode

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10/10/2012 12:26 PM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Thank you.
I admit I'm confused and I'm back and forth over the whole issue.
I pray, but sometimes I don't know who I'm praying to.
I usually address it to "whoever has our best interests at heart". Maybe it's God.
I think basically, I believe, but so many things feel contradictory.
One thing I've found is that I can't just turn my back and walk away after spending my childhood in church. I guess that's where the confusion sets in.
The intervention theory of creation + tweaking makes sense, but only leads me to more questions.
 Quoting: Mandevilla


You're quite welcome.

You know, if you address an envelope to "somebody", is it any surprise that "somebody" doesn't write back? Or if you visit me at my house, can you say you really visited everyone, because we're really all the same? Yet this is what people do with God; they say prayers to "whoever" and that "we all worship the same god anyway", and then they wonder why nothing happens.

So the first order of business is to identify God, just as you'd have to know my name and address to come visit me. And for that you'd need a map, some method of navigation. What those two things are-- ID and address-- are where people have a thousand different ideas, as if we can find "John Smith" in the US with a map of the UK. So how do we find the real God, and how do we make a connection?

It begins with epistemology-- how you know what you know. Some say "look within", others through a microscope or something. For me, I look for evidence upon which I can draw inferences and conclusions. The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is, IMHO, irrefutable, and there are plenty of documents online you can read to see the arguments. And if Jesus did rise as predicted, then he is God in the flesh, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one gets to heaven by any other faith.

This is what I'd call the positive reason I trust Jesus. The negative would be the fact that I see no such evidence for other would-be gods, including what I call Evo the Magical (things can create themselves, explosions produce increased order, a singularity blew up for no reason and poof! here we are). But no matter which way you turn or which path you take, you will find not certainty but only probability, so a search for absolute proof of anything at all will prove fruitless. But as for me, the odds favor Jesus and the Bible.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/10/2012 12:32 PM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Its about survival right?

And one thing we have to do no matter what is eat. Ok...

So the point is being here the longest we can, because we know we will die. Thats the point of life. Having kids is not the point of life. Anyways...

The bible right away is about where you are going to go when you die. It doesnt tell me where im going to be put when im born. So right away, i dont want anything to do with it! It is negative from the start and obviously tries to prepare me for it.

Well, sorry but i know i will die, thats not the point here.

Meanwhile, i have to follow rules before i die, otherwise i go to either a bad place or a good place. Blasphemy!

If God is omnipresent, omnipotent, then nothing matters at ALL. Nothing truly matters!!!


But then you go to yourself, which is all you truly have.

Well if you go to yourself and project, God would be you.
Mandevilla

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10/10/2012 12:42 PM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Thank you.
I admit I'm confused and I'm back and forth over the whole issue.
I pray, but sometimes I don't know who I'm praying to.
I usually address it to "whoever has our best interests at heart". Maybe it's God.
I think basically, I believe, but so many things feel contradictory.
One thing I've found is that I can't just turn my back and walk away after spending my childhood in church. I guess that's where the confusion sets in.
The intervention theory of creation + tweaking makes sense, but only leads me to more questions.
 Quoting: Mandevilla


You're quite welcome.

You know, if you address an envelope to "somebody", is it any surprise that "somebody" doesn't write back? Or if you visit me at my house, can you say you really visited everyone, because we're really all the same? Yet this is what people do with God; they say prayers to "whoever" and that "we all worship the same god anyway", and then they wonder why nothing happens.

So the first order of business is to identify God, just as you'd have to know my name and address to come visit me. And for that you'd need a map, some method of navigation. What those two things are-- ID and address-- are where people have a thousand different ideas, as if we can find "John Smith" in the US with a map of the UK. So how do we find the real God, and how do we make a connection?

It begins with epistemology-- how you know what you know. Some say "look within", others through a microscope or something. For me, I look for evidence upon which I can draw inferences and conclusions. The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is, IMHO, irrefutable, and there are plenty of documents online you can read to see the arguments. And if Jesus did rise as predicted, then he is God in the flesh, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one gets to heaven by any other faith.

This is what I'd call the positive reason I trust Jesus. The negative would be the fact that I see no such evidence for other would-be gods, including what I call Evo the Magical (things can create themselves, explosions produce increased order, a singularity blew up for no reason and poof! here we are). But no matter which way you turn or which path you take, you will find not certainty but only probability, so a search for absolute proof of anything at all will prove fruitless. But as for me, the odds favor Jesus and the Bible.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Now, Jesus is another matter. I have no doubt of Jesus.

But who was Jesus? (See, it never stops in my mind :) )

Even if Jesus was a mortal man, he was/is something special--a teacher of the lessons of love and we failed the class. Not every single one of us, but as a whole.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
And I saw something else under the sun:

In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
in the place of justice—wickedness was there.
17 I said to myself,

“God will bring into judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time to judge every deed.”
18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?

Ecclesiastes 3
Keep2theCode

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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Now, Jesus is another matter. I have no doubt of Jesus.

But who was Jesus? (See, it never stops in my mind :) )

Even if Jesus was a mortal man, he was/is something special--a teacher of the lessons of love and we failed the class. Not every single one of us, but as a whole.
 Quoting: Mandevilla


Why not ask him? The gospels record his teachings and things he has said about himself.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
The absurd part to me is that the omniscient creator knew what was going to happen from the beginning and allowed it to happen---if you believe in the God of the bible in the first place.

To say he didn't is to doubt his power.

According to believers, he knows all and sees all right down to the number of hairs on your head.

So he apparently knew what path his creation was going to take all the way down to starving, abused, dying children and let it happen anyway.
So much for millstones...

Why would a god create such imperfection?
Why wouldn't a god create a perfect world of love. And just forget about Eden, because if god is all-knowing he knew what was going to happen there.
Why, if he loves us, do we have to suffer as some sort of test?
We are supposedly his children and no matter the number crying out for help, he does nothing. I understand that some requests would get no consideration or a "no", but what about suffering, tortured souls begging with all their hearts for their god (father) to help them? What kind of "father" could say "no"?

Sounds like neglect, lack of caring or just simple nonexistence.
 Quoting: Mandevilla

You proceed from a false assumption...

It never occurred to you that there might be more to this life than meets the eye, that this is kind of a chess game pitting free will against compassion, a battle of wits between God and Satan. And based on this "only what I can see in front of my nose" approach, you make yourself God's judge and jury, demanding that your own creator bow to you and report to you or you'll hate him. And you think yourself superior.

Here's another scenario:

God created human beings in his own image, meaning sentient beings with free will. Only free-willed beings could possibly love God, because love must be freely given, and there must be an option not to love. To create beings that would never reject God would be to create robots or puppets. To only create them if they all chose love would be to only move the line in the sand, not circumvent the problem: the unavoidable fact that love involves risk. And since God IS love, not even he could escape his own nature and create beings who could only give a false or forced love.

So God had the right to create people, and he had the right to make them sentient beings with a genuine choice. What they did with that choice is not his fault, but ours. And if you didn't ask to be born, then remember that neither did God. And if you say he should never have created us, then you are saying God can't do what he wants, which makes me ask who you think you are.

So Satan thought he had God cornered when he got Adam and Eve to sin. He tricked them into giving him their world, which is why it's so messed up. This is Satan's world, Satan's kingdom, and the real question is why anything good ever happens. The fact that it does is evidence that Satan is limited by God. And what gives God the right to limit him is the ransom paid by Jesus for the human race. He paid the blood Satan demanded, and when Satan's "lease" is up, Jesus will return. With a vengeance.

And if that isn't good enough for you, nothing will be.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Choosing to love god is pretty easy for some and almost impossible for others. I mean - the woman locked in a torture box for ten years has to ask herself - where was god? And the person who just won the 100 million dollar lottery - not so much. This again goes to the whole unfairness of this existence. Is there an explanation for such diverse treatment? Karma was offered but it's hard to believe that even Karma could explain a tortured existence ending in death. Or a small boy who gets struck by lightening in the heart and lives a life paralyzed - never to experience so many human things that others take for granted. Then again the paralyzed boy just had a lot of evil inclinations eliminated via his condition. Another paradoxical event resulting in another uneven playing field.

I see - it's Satan's world and god just lives here. Okay - WTF is that all about? God limits Satan? Selectively? I mean the guy who tortures and kills and lives to see another day certainly wasn't limited in any way. Sounds like you're talking out of your ass. I mean why just limit him and not just eliminate him in the first place?
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
And I saw something else under the sun:

In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
in the place of justice—wickedness was there.
17 I said to myself,

“God will bring into judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time to judge every deed.”
18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?

Ecclesiastes 3
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 9560253


"this is their lot" - again some people get a pretty shitty lot - which was the question. Why? Why do some people get fucked royally while evil people live a good life? And doesn't the diversity of experience automatically create an uneven game? Some people don't' have to make the tough choices - and others do.
Keep2theCode

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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Choosing to love god is pretty easy for some and almost impossible for others. I mean - the woman locked in a torture box for ten years has to ask herself - where was god? And the person who just won the 100 million dollar lottery - not so much. This again goes to the whole unfairness of this existence. Is there an explanation for such diverse treatment? Karma was offered but it's hard to believe that even Karma could explain a tortured existence ending in death. Or a small boy who gets struck by lightening in the heart and lives a life paralyzed - never to experience so many human things that others take for granted. Then again the paralyzed boy just had a lot of evil inclinations eliminated via his condition. Another paradoxical event resulting in another uneven playing field.

I see - it's Satan's world and god just lives here. Okay - WTF is that all about? God limits Satan? Selectively? I mean the guy who tortures and kills and lives to see another day certainly wasn't limited in any way. Sounds like you're talking out of your ass. I mean why just limit him and not just eliminate him in the first place?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737


But you're presuming that the only way to get justice is to get it in this life. Don't you think justice will be served if God showers the victims with unimaginable joy and blessings for eternity, while the perps get unimaginable suffering and torment for eternity? How is that not adequate payback?

I don't care where you think I pulled that from, the fact is that you can't see past this life. In fact it is your view that leaves the victims unavenged and the perps get away with it, because if we don't make it right here, it will never happen.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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You almost had me in the first part but we're now talking about previous lives and transferred Karma. Even if I bought this explanation there remain questions: (1)Why are evil people evading their PRESENT LIFE bad KARMA? I mean - wouldn't it make more sense to get them in their evil life instead of letting them enjoy themselves and then punishing them horrifically in a later life? (2) Your explanation evades random destruction - like the boy who dies from an accidental blow to his head. Or are you saying god in some instances will let EVIL "FREE WILL" PEOPLE inflict retribution but in some cases he'll just drop a tree on them himself?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737

God doesn't do anything in this realm; does not intercede to mete out punishment. Karma takes care of all. Karma may also work in-between lives in the Astral Plane/Purgatory, again beyond anyone's need for immediacy or satisfaction from our mere perspective.

The take-away from this is it is all *extremely* fair and just, we just may not see it because our perspective is extremely limited or biased based on our circumstances, lack of understanding or bitterness.

I can't cover every way in which Karma operates, but I've given you enough to slueth out just about any scenario and have a pretty good guess how/when justice prevails.
Ah so comfort and material satisfaction (like a good meal) is actually bad for our souls? I mean I had a nice steak just an hour ago and I suddenly feel guilty.
 Quoting: op


You sound cheeky here, which is fine. Sense of Humor is good, you'll need it.

That said, how you feel about your steak is your business. I had one with melted gorgonzola last night.

Material life comes with necessary evils and built-in negative Karma.

The perfect spiritual life is unobtainable in material existence by definition.

All will fail and all will find their way to destruction unless they take the "get out of Karma free" card offered to them.
 Quoting: William_the_Bloody


What kind of bad KARMA results in such diverse punishments? Take the child born with retardation - who has to live a life of utter misery. Is this just Karma getting him? That's hard to believe. Or the woman held captive for 20 years and tortured until she dies? What did she do? WOW! Then you have simultaneous to that evil people killing hundreds of thousands for self interested reasons (some US politicians fall in to this category) living lives of luxury. Why and how? Karma takes a break until it's ready get rolling so it lets the evil doers live nicely in the interim? While Karma poses the best explanation it still has a ton of holes in it.
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Choosing to love god is pretty easy for some and almost impossible for others. I mean - the woman locked in a torture box for ten years has to ask herself - where was god? And the person who just won the 100 million dollar lottery - not so much. This again goes to the whole unfairness of this existence. Is there an explanation for such diverse treatment? Karma was offered but it's hard to believe that even Karma could explain a tortured existence ending in death. Or a small boy who gets struck by lightening in the heart and lives a life paralyzed - never to experience so many human things that others take for granted. Then again the paralyzed boy just had a lot of evil inclinations eliminated via his condition. Another paradoxical event resulting in another uneven playing field.

I see - it's Satan's world and god just lives here. Okay - WTF is that all about? God limits Satan? Selectively? I mean the guy who tortures and kills and lives to see another day certainly wasn't limited in any way. Sounds like you're talking out of your ass. I mean why just limit him and not just eliminate him in the first place?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737


But you're presuming that the only way to get justice is to get it in this life. Don't you think justice will be served if God showers the victims with unimaginable joy and blessings for eternity, while the perps get unimaginable suffering and torment for eternity? How is that not adequate payback?

I don't care where you think I pulled that from, the fact is that you can't see past this life. In fact it is your view that leaves the victims unavenged and the perps get away with it, because if we don't make it right here, it will never happen.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I wasn't talking about a lack or possible or potential "justice". I was talking about the reality of this existence and the unfairness of experience as it relates to tortured people. And was looking specifically as to how or why god would create or permit that?
Keep2theCode

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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
I wasn't talking about a lack or possible or potential "justice". I was talking about the reality of this existence and the unfairness of experience as it relates to tortured people. And was looking specifically as to how or why god would create or permit that?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737


For God to intervene would mean overriding free will, and the moment he did that, Satan would win and we'd all be doomed forever. This is why Satan thought he had God outwitted: how could God sit back and do nothing? Would he violate his own sense of compassion, would he fold under the pressure? Satan knows the answer now, and hates God (and us) all the more because of it. It is Satan who is doomed, so he vents his rage all the more against people.

You might also consider the number of victims of torture or poverty who have the strongest faith. How would you explain this seeming paradox? And why is it that the comfortable seem to be the most likely to not believe in God, or to hate him?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
William_the_Bloody

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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
What kind of bad KARMA results in such diverse punishments? Take the child born with retardation - who has to live a life of utter misery. Is this just Karma getting him? That's hard to believe. Or the woman held captive for 20 years and tortured until she dies? What did she do? WOW! Then you have simultaneous to that evil people killing hundreds of thousands for self interested reasons (some US politicians fall in to this category) living lives of luxury. Why and how? Karma takes a break until it's ready get rolling so it lets the evil doers live nicely in the interim? While Karma poses the best explanation it still has a ton of holes in it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737


This is kind of a straw man argument and suffers from a limited perspective.
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Read a few kidnap/torture stories here:

TRUE TALES of Liberty Denied

[link to piperpost.net]

Now my questions are:

A - if there is a god and he is all powerful how could he let these people be enslaved and tortured (some until their death)? What kind of fucking god would do that?

b - if there is a god the fate of these people is just ABSURD - I mean your life taken from you so that you can be a tortured for the enjoyment of some sociopath? Really. What meaning does your life have if that's the case - years of torture followed by death. Simply ABSURD. And if it's just some "test" then why do cock suckers and murders not face the same test (in fact some of these sociopaths simply get away with it)?

c - The concept of fairness is missing in this world. If a young child can be enslaved and tortured for the sole pleasure of a sociopath while criminals, thieves and murderers run rampant, then there is clearly no sense of fairness on the planet. What's the god rationale for this possibility.

d - Can Karma really exist if scum walk freely in happiness while torturing other people? If so how?

I mean these to be serious inquiries in to the existence of god in light of the absurd.

For more reading on ABSURDISM:

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737


:same question:
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 01:08 AM
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
He loves drama and soap opera. He created the world for a bit of fun. I can't see that it could be interesting at all seeing as he is all powerful and knows every detail from beginning to end.
So the only conclusion I can arrive at is that he's a dick :-)
Keep2theCode

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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
:same question:
 Quoting: Salt


From another angle...

Definition of an atheist: Someone who wants God to leave us all alone, then rages at Him for not intervening to get us out of the consequences of our actions.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
:same question:
 Quoting: Salt


From another angle...

Definition of an atheist: Someone who wants God to leave us all alone, then rages at Him for not intervening to get us out of the consequences of our actions.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


The small boy who gets stuck by lightening is not in his situation as the result of the "consequences of his action".

The absurd is real - the question was - why? Not a lot of great answers. My speculation is theoretical. If there is a god maybe this reality is limited to its/his influence. You have to have chaos and you have to have random tragedy and the absurd to create this reality. If those didn't exist we couldn't. That leaves a few possibilities: (1) no god (shit happens) or (2) a god that does not have input here (shit has to happen) or (3) or one that chooses (for whatever reason) not to have input in this system of chaos (god lets shit happen).

The term order out of chaos is another way of saying the two are intertwined here - the thought that the perfect order of god and the randomness of chaos make this reality what it is. Represented by things like the symbol of the ying/yang.

When an asteroid hits I don't think it's any more the work of god than the lightening bolt that strikes the small boy. There's no karma - there is only a mixture of chaos and order.
Keep2theCode

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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
:same question:
 Quoting: Salt


From another angle...

Definition of an atheist: Someone who wants God to leave us all alone, then rages at Him for not intervening to get us out of the consequences of our actions.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


The small boy who gets stuck by lightening is not in his situation as the result of the "consequences of his action".

The absurd is real - the question was - why? Not a lot of great answers. My speculation is theoretical. If there is a god maybe this reality is limited to its/his influence. You have to have chaos and you have to have random tragedy and the absurd to create this reality. If those didn't exist we couldn't. That leaves a few possibilities: (1) no god (shit happens) or (2) a god that does not have input here (shit has to happen) or (3) or one that chooses (for whatever reason) not to have input in this system of chaos (god lets shit happen).

The term order out of chaos is another way of saying the two are intertwined here - the thought that the perfect order of god and the randomness of chaos make this reality what it is. Represented by things like the symbol of the ying/yang.

When an asteroid hits I don't think it's any more the work of god than the lightening bolt that strikes the small boy. There's no karma - there is only a mixture of chaos and order.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 3978737


The state of our dangerous world is in fact the result of rebellion against God, such that collective consequences exist as well as personal ones. Yes there are those who suffer through no fault of their own, but remember that we are in the kingdom of Satan here on earth. Satan is not kind and has no compassion; in fact, he relishes the suffering of the innocent. Who expects anything good to happen under Satan's rule?

I do agree that there are things set in motion that do not reflect anyone's direct involvement, such as the astronomical events you mentioned. Death itself is universal, even in the animal kingdom, but again this is the consequence of Adam's rebellion against God, which handed the jurisdiction of the world to Satan.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: God Believers - Questions About The Absurd
Isaiah 57:1
The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

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