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The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either

 
Life and Love

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10/13/2012 09:52 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
I'll add one more point to your very good list: that is, Jesus announced that the old authority of Temple, Torah, and National Identity now became resident in Him and Him alone.
 Quoting: Life and Love


Yep! We also remember that the veil in the Temple was ripped in two, signifying that there was no longer any "holiest place" sealed off from ordinary people, and thus no more of the old priesthood and its inseparable Law.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


A fascinating (to me) study was to see how everything Jesus did while on earth pointed to this shift in authority. Healings, teachings, celebrations, feeding the masses, etc. These were functions of the Temple and priesthood. For example, people would go to the Temple for healing prayers. Jesus short circuited that by healing them directly!

His teachings spoke "with authority" unlike the priests of the day. So why go to the priests who had no authority when you come come to Jesus who did?

His judgment of the Temple - overturning the money changers' tables stopped the sacrificial system in its tracks for awhile, because people couldn't buy the animals to be sacrificed.

The Last Supper, which moved the tradition of the Seder meal from the past (Exodus, Passover) to Jesus Himself.

And then Christ on the Cross, annihilating the need for those animal sacrifices altogether.

(There were several more which I can't recall off the top of my head.)

Last Edited by Life and Love on 10/13/2012 09:53 PM
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
Keep2theCode

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10/13/2012 09:57 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
A fascinating (to me) study was to see how everything Jesus did while on earth pointed to this shift in authority. Healings, teachings, celebrations, feeding the masses, etc. These were functions of the Temple and priesthood. For example, people would go to the Temple for healing prayers. Jesus short circuited that by healing them directly!

His teachings spoke "with authority" unlike the priests of the day. So why go to the priests who had no authority when you come come to Jesus who did?

His judgment of the Temple - overturning the money changers' tables stopped the sacrificial system in its tracks for awhile, because people couldn't buy the animals to be sacrificed.

The Last Supper, which moved the tradition of the Seder meal from the past (Exodus, Passover) to Jesus Himself.

And then Christ on the Cross, annihilating the need for those animal sacrifices altogether.

(There were several more which I can't recall off the top of my head.)
 Quoting: Life and Love


Yes! Things I'd add include "where two or three are gathered" (and neither has to be an "authority"!), and "The time has come when people won't worship here or in Jerusalem but in spirit and truth". As the One who fulfilled everything the law required, including the prophecies about the Messiah as the suffering servant, there is nothing left for us to do but to "enter God's rest"-- not his "work"!

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/13/2012 09:57 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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10/13/2012 10:22 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
I've always wondered about this. This is twice now that you have given me a path to explore further and make sense of something I've wondered about for 40 plus years......thanks salt
Anonymous Coward
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10/13/2012 10:40 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
When I gave my life to Christ in 1988.....I was immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit.....connected with God.....and given new life in Christ.


Then about three months later......out of obedience to God and to show this new life in Christ as a testimony to others......I was water baptized.


However.....I was saved.....born again of the Spirit.....baptized by the Spirit.......three months prior to the water baptism.


Water baptism does not save people......as it is a human work/action.
Borian

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10/13/2012 10:44 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
When I gave my life to Christ in 1988.....I was immediately indwelt by the Holy Spirit.....connected with God.....and given new life in Christ.


Then about three months later......out of obedience to God and to show this new life in Christ as a testimony to others......I was water baptized.


However.....I was saved.....born again of the Spirit.....baptized by the Spirit.......three months prior to the water baptism.


Water baptism does not save people......as it is a human work/action.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25519543


Your works mean nothing, it's something you are supposed to do. Giving your life over was what mattered.

He loves all of you dearly and wants you to come home. Please hurry.
X^24

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10/13/2012 10:50 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
"He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved." (emphasis added)
 Quoting: Mark 16:16


No contradiction at all. Show me the word "water" in that verse. And explain all the other instances where any mention of water baptism is conspicuous by its absence.

...

ADDED: The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20 in Mark 16.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Yes the bible does suffer from some inadequacies which other scriptures greatly clarify, especially on being born of the spirit and who has authority to perform such ordinances.

How do you explain

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 Quoting: John3:5


If "born of water" is not baptism, then what is it?

Last Edited by X^24 on 10/13/2012 10:57 PM
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Keep2theCode

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10/13/2012 10:57 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Yes the bible does suffer from some inadequacies which other scriptures greatly clarify, especially on being born of the spirit and who has authority to perform such ordinances.

How do you explain

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 Quoting: John3:5


If "born of water" is not baptism, then what is it?
 Quoting: X^24


If you look at the pairings in that passage, Jesus is contrasting normal, physical birth with spiritual birth. There's nothing there about baptism/immersion but only birth. Why presume baptism? What is there in the passage that even hints at it? Water baptism is a ritual common at the time and not necessarily a religious practice. It was the accepted public declaration of pledging loyalty or identification with a group or ideology.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/13/2012 11:24 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Yes the bible does suffer from some inadequacies which other scriptures greatly clarify, especially on being born of the spirit and who has authority to perform such ordinances.

How do you explain

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 Quoting: John3:5


If "born of water" is not baptism, then what is it?
 Quoting: X^24


If you look at the pairings in that passage, Jesus is contrasting normal, physical birth with spiritual birth. There's nothing there about baptism/immersion but only birth. Why presume baptism? What is there in the passage that even hints at it? Water baptism is a ritual common at the time and not necessarily a religious practice. It was the accepted public declaration of pledging loyalty or identification with a group or ideology.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Agree......a person has to read the whole passage for the meaning.

There is first the physical birth.


Then Christ says you must be born again.....of the Spirit.


Nicodemus asked him.....how can I enter again into my mother's womb?


The thief came to faith in Christ on the cross.....in an instant.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/13/2012 11:38 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
well i just spent two whole days ridding all of my systems of a nasty trojan which wiped out my internet connections among other things.

i have some catching up to do
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/13/2012 11:40 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
I've always wondered about this. This is twice now that you have given me a path to explore further and make sense of something I've wondered about for 40 plus years......thanks salt
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 932329


amen! hf
Anonymous Coward
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10/14/2012 12:44 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
I appreciate everyone's efforts and inputs.

I am learning that I don't do well with reading large amounts of text on-line that are addressing multiple topics. Probably an age thing. :)

But I want to come back to something I asked many pages ago: How has what you believe affected your day-to-day life? Is there anything "actionable" in what is being said and read?
 Quoting: Life and Love


I know what you mean. My eyes are a mess from computer excesses. I plan to read Dried UP Hag's, for love of name and avatar, but haven't yet.
I know.: " Can't take it, but sure can dish it out!" [me, i mean]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


As to last paragraph, I benefit from being motivated by others' interest in what the Bible calls "the deep things of God" to look into questions that I may have also. E.g., things that may appear to be inconsistencies, but will turn out not to have been. This deepens my faith in Gods word, and makes me want to persist in learning in it. Then I want to talk about it more, and when I do, hopefully ppl will be able to sense that I'm 'not just whistlin' Dixie', but really, I mean really believe.

I think the other 'debaters' toward the end of yesterday's thread have the same motive, and we end up being collaborative in each others' learning.

Romans 12 "Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason. 2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Is this from the NWT? I like the Philips version, which from memory uses the phrase: "Don't let the world squeeze you into its mold..."

Where I differ from the way you cited Rom 12:2 is that your version makes it sound like the transformation is something WE do, whereas the sense of the text from my studies is that the transformation is the work of the Holy Spirit.

The first part of v.2 ("conformed to the world") is an outside-in activity and could include society's norms, world systems, dogmatic teachers, and even church doctrine. The second part of v.2 ("be transformed") is an inside-out process which the examples I gave for the first part of the verse can never do.

(A side note: the Greek word used for "transformed" in Rom 12:2 is the same Greek word used for "transfigured" in Matt.17.)
 Quoting: Life and Love


Yes NWT. And yes we understand it same way, transformation impossible on our own-

2 Read Romans 12:1, 2. In the earlier part of his letter, Paul clearly demonstrated that anointed Christians, whether Jewish or Gentile, were declared righteous before God by faith, not by works. (Rom. 1:16; 3:20-24) In chapter 12, Paul explains that Christians should show their gratitude by a life of self-sacrifice. To that end, we have to make our minds over. Through inherited imperfection, we are subject to “the law of sin and of death.” (Rom. 8:2) We, therefore, need to be transformed, “be made new in the force actuating [our] mind,” by radically changing our inclinations. (Eph. 4:23) Such a complete change can be brought about only with the help of God and his spirit. It also requires serious effort on our part, using our “power of reason.” It means that we do our utmost not to be “fashioned after this system of things” with its corrupt morals, debased entertainment, and warped thinking.—Eph. 2:1-3.

Just like transfig. demonstrated God's power in a way that powerfully reassured observers.
X^24

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
"He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved." (emphasis added)
 Quoting: Mark 16:16


Yes the bible does suffer from some inadequacies which other scriptures greatly clarify, especially on being born of the spirit and who has authority to perform such ordinances.

How do you explain

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 Quoting: John3:5


If "born of water" is not baptism, then what is it?
 Quoting: X^24


If you look at the pairings in that passage, Jesus is contrasting normal, physical birth with spiritual birth. There's nothing there about baptism/immersion but only birth. Why presume baptism? What is there in the passage that even hints at it? Water baptism is a ritual common at the time and not necessarily a religious practice. It was the accepted public declaration of pledging loyalty or identification with a group or ideology.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Your unexpected interpretation almost seems plausible except for

… who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism which now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, - [link to www.bebaptized.org]
 Quoting: I Peter 3:21


The Earth will also undergo baptism by fire aka spirit that it may likewise become an immortal creation.

Last Edited by X^24 on 10/14/2012 05:22 AM
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Keep2theCode

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10/14/2012 08:13 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Your unexpected interpretation almost seems plausible except for

… who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism which now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, - [link to www.bebaptized.org]
 Quoting: I Peter 3:21


The Earth will also undergo baptism by fire aka spirit that it may likewise become an immortal creation.
 Quoting: X^24


I don't see the grounds for "except" here at all. Notice the direction of the symbolism: it's the literal water that symbolizes the figurative fire, not the other way around. Just as John the Baptist said that he baptized with water while Jesus would baptize with fire, so also the water baptism of Noah (though technically he rode on top of the water and was never literally immersed in it) was a shadow or type of the fire/Holy Spirit baptism to come later. And again, Jesus with Nicodemas spoke of water first, then spirit. Even the end of the age, which Jesus compared to "the days of Noah", will end in literal fire as opposed to literal water.

So I just don't see any holes in my argument that water baptism is no more, and is now replaced by fire baptism.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/14/2012 09:47 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
i know i am a couple days behind on everything here, but, i have been discussing the "curse" issue with several very studied people and I have come full circle back to my original understanding.

Eve very much so was included in the curse, was also expelled from the garden.

regarding Satan and the temptation in the desert - the only kingdom he ruled over is the realm of behavior of people toward God.

he rules over nothing other than that.
the battlefield is the mind. hint.

and, he uses is same trickery as he did with Eve in the garden.
word trickery.

eliminating the cross was the temptation, not gaining the kingdom realm(s) that satan rules over.

the fall in the garden was the first death.

sorry K2TC...
your logic is sturdy, but it lacks the heart.

have to say, it had me thinking though. but, at the end of the day, God has done a tremendous work, and i will not throw it away.
 Quoting: Salt


sorry K2TC...
your logic is sturdy, but it lacks the heart.

have to say, it had me thinking though. but, at the end of the day, God has done a tremendous work, and i will not throw it away.
 Quoting: Salt


I have no idea what "lacks the heart" means. I also don't know why sturdy logic doesn't count. Glad it gave you a workout at least. I too have no regrets for the effort. I just don't belong in a world where logic doesn't work, I dunno.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


the line of thinking that i speak of does not lack logic.
i bounced it of doctorate holding scholars who have more than 4 decades experience, and one rabbi. anyway...

it seems that there is something else going on under the surface. it started to reveal itself in your posts regarding child abusers in heaven, etc.

there is a wall there.
none of my business really.
but, there is something creating a stronghold.

i am guilty of being way too analytical and not operating from the heart near enough. i have been chastised for this more than a few times.

i finally get it.
but, massive amounts of pain and heartbreak can do that to a person.
 Quoting: Salt


posted in the wrong thread. oops
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
you know what really cracks me up at GLP?

you get screamed at for cutting and pasting material, and ALSO get screamed at for typing out your own words.

interesting.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
hell = Cell regeneration? maybe
Keep2theCode

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10/15/2012 07:45 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Here is my final reply from the mistaken thread: [link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
X^24

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Your unexpected interpretation almost seems plausible except for

… who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism which now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, - [link to www.bebaptized.org]
 Quoting: I Peter 3:21


The Earth will also undergo baptism by fire aka spirit that it may likewise become an immortal creation.
 Quoting: X^24


I don't see the grounds for "except" here at all. Notice the direction of the symbolism: it's the literal water that symbolizes the figurative fire, not the other way around. Just as John the Baptist said that he baptized with water while Jesus would baptize with fire, so also the water baptism of Noah (though technically he rode on top of the water and was never literally immersed in it) was a shadow or type of the fire/Holy Spirit baptism to come later. And again, Jesus with Nicodemas spoke of water first, then spirit. Even the end of the age, which Jesus compared to "the days of Noah", will end in literal fire as opposed to literal water.

So I just don't see any holes in my argument that water baptism is no more, and is now replaced by fire baptism.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Thanks for sharing with me how you come up with the idea that water baptism is not required, it validates

"... for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. - [link to donny.com]

Anyways, most object to required baptism because of the "faith only" deception that you alluded to with your quote from Ephesians .. those that are all about applying proper context somehow never continue their quote to verse 10.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - [link to www.lds.org]

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, - [link to bible.cc]
 Quoting: Ephesians 2:10

Reviewing OPs opening post I see that it's main truth is that "faith without works is dead", making use of talents, etc. The very definition of the word believe is "be-live".
The deception continues to crumble.
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Keep2theCode

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10/15/2012 04:15 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Anyways, most object to required baptism because of the "faith only" deception that you alluded to with your quote from Ephesians .. those that are all about applying proper context somehow never continue their quote to verse 10.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - [link to www.lds.org]

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, - [link to bible.cc]
 Quoting: Ephesians 2:10

Reviewing OPs opening post I see that it's main truth is that "faith without works is dead", making use of talents, etc. The very definition of the word believe is "be-live".
 Quoting: X^24

Deception? That means an intent to deceive, and you have no right to accuse people who disagree with you of that intent.

Eph. 2:10 gives the reason we are saved, our purpose and result of being saved... NOT the cause of being saved. Good works follow salvation, not precede or cause it.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/16/2012 11:59 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
more scripture that shows Jesus PRESENTLY rules over the kingdoms of the earth.

Col 1:16* “For by Him all things were created, both in the
heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.

Col 2:10* and in Him you have been made complete, and He is
the head over all rule and authority;

Col 2:15* When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He
made a public display of them, having triumphed over them
through Him.”

Re 12:5* “And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.”

Lk 19: 11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants,[a] he gave them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Engage in business until I come.’ 14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’ 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business. 16 The first came before him, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.’ 17 And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant![c] Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ 18 And the second came, saying, ‘Lord, your mina has made five minas.’ 19 And he said to him, ‘And you are to be over five cities.’ 20 Then another came, saying, ‘Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ 22 He said to him, ‘I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ 24 And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.’ 25 And they said to him, ‘Lord, he has ten minas!’ 26 ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”

Re 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us, and released us from our sins by His blood.”

1Corinthians 15:24 “then comes the end, when He delivers up
the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all
rule and all authority and power.”

Similar to the example of Moses, Jesus is both ruler and judge now until the “Last Trumpet:”

Acts 7:35* “This Moses whom they disowned, saying, ‘WHO MADE
YOU A RULER AND A JUDGE?’ is the one whom God sent to be
both a ruler and a deliverer with the help of the angel who
appeared to him in the thorn bush.”

Jesus said the devil, the rule of the world, would now (Two
thousand years ago being the time context of “now.”) be
dethroned from king to a mere prince of the power of the air, of a highly fragmented and confused kingdom of darkness:

John 12:31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.” “It is Finished, Jesus is ruling the nations!” Satan is now demoted in authority from king of the world to prince of the air, in the New Testament:

Ephesians 2:2
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this
world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.”
Revelation 12:10* “And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.”

Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

Proverbs 3:3 “Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them
around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart.”


*****************
Jesus told the Roman Governor Pilate that Christ’s servants
would fight for Kingdom of Jesus, and not forever be pacifists
after Jesus inherited His Kingdom. Jesus did not have a kingdom
on earth prior to the resurrection or His servants would of fought
for Him according to what Jesus said. Therefore at the time of
Pilate’s interrogation, Jesus did not have a kingdom, which is
why He said His kingdom was not from man’s authority nor on
earth at that time. It was after the resurrection that Jesus
received His Kingdom on Earth and the nations for His
inheritance.
Psalms 110:1 (A Psalm of David.) The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit
at My right hand, Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy
feet.”
*******************

1 Corinthians 15:22*
“For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
23* But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that
those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24* then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the
God and Father, when He has abolished all other rule and other
all authority and power. [Only the rule, authority and power of
Jesus will remain.]
25* For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His
feet.” As long as there are rulers, authorities and powers, JESUS
RULES NOW and not just in the far future!!!
Carshy McCarsh

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11/19/2012 11:22 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
[link to www.christianuniversalist.org]

BTW Salt, this thread = applause2 applause2 applause2 applause2
Tell me what this tastes like...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 11:29 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
[link to www.christianuniversalist.org]

BTW Salt, this thread = applause2 applause2 applause2 applause2
 Quoting: Carshy McCarsh



hf
thanks for bumping it today.
MHz

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11/19/2012 01:14 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Is it fair that the Bible says people can get into heaven by simply believing in Jesus, when there might be some far better people around who might go to hell simply because they didn't believe in him?
 Quoting: Salt

To get into hell you have to belong to an 'army' that exists on earth on the days Jesus returns, that will get you into hell for the 1,000 years. Anybody in the grave before then does not go to hell, they spend the same time being asleep in a dreamless state, both are resurrected to life at the Great White Throne and even the ones in hell are clean and without sin at that point because being in hell was the full punishment God has determined, eternal means as long as hell exists.


This is the first verse in the bible that refers to post-death, post-resurrection, long-term effects of this life, for those who actively reject God’s goodness. Notice that the 'quality of life' is described as 'disgrace' and 'contempt'--hardly mind-numbing torture terms! If the hell-experience had been understood as the intense suffering commonly attributed to it, then this verse has focused on very minor aspects of that--to the point of being misleading perhaps.
2. The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages: ...

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (matt 13.40)
 Quoting:

That same group destined for the sword is referenced in Isaiah 65 as being under punishment, the latter part of that chapter has the same group building houses and living in them in the new earth. The 'servants' in that chapter will live inside New Jerusalem so they will not be building houses only the ones outside the wall of the city will do that, they are also the only group that has children.

Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13.47) ...
 Quoting:

That is hell for the 1,000 years, they also get to look on their 'former leader' (Isa:14) and they will be mocking him so that is repenting in a form but there are no early releases from death or hell after the 1,000 years begins.

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (matt 24.48ff) ...
 Quoting:

That is what happens to unrepented people, they miss out on being with Jesus for the 1,000 years, they meet God at the GWT event so that is the day they get saved, rather than they never get salvation.

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13.28ff)
 Quoting:

Zec:13 says the split will be 1/3 left alive and 2/3 bite the dust on that same afternoon. The 1/3 will be joined by many that need resurrection to be back in the land of the living.

The discomfort described here is weeping/sorrow, NOT screaming/pain--contrary to most of the popular images of hell used for this question.

Notice that a few of these passages have the 'darkness' and 'fire' images, but the effects are cast in terms of sorrow ('weeping') and anguish/regret/anger ('gnashing of teeth', cf. Acts 7.54, Ps 37.12). Notice especially that in the Lucan passage the weeping occurs "when they see" their own exclusion--it is due to the separation issue, not some torture or pain. ...
 Quoting:



Hell is thought by many to be eternal. But an examination of the original Greek words apparently sheds a new light on it, and according to some, it turns out that hell is a process of punishment meant to refine and correct faults, to bring people to feel sorrow for their past behaviour so they sincerely seek forgiveness and wish to change their ways, at which point, they can be allowed into heaven.
 Quoting:

If you are unrepented whenthe 7th trump sounds you will be waiting till the GWT before you are saved, beter late than never.


From an article called Is It All GREEK to You? by brad edwards:

"... While on the topic of "FIRE," let's consider another strong passage from Revelation.

REV 14:10"...he will be tormented with burning SULFUR in the PRESENCE of the holy angels and the Lamb"
 Quoting:

In this verse we see the word "SULFUR" used for "tormenting" (punishing) those who follow the Beast. Also note that this is done in the PRESENCE of Jesus and not in some subterranean fire pit away from God. It is this PRESENSE of our holy God that causes their pain to be sure. So what is SULFUR? Well, in some Bibles it is translated "brimstone," but the Greek word here is "THEION" which can also be translated DIVINE as in something from God. Places that lightning touched were called "theia" and left a sulfurous smell. Also sulfur was used in purification ceremonies in that day by some outside of Judea. The real key here is that THEION is derived from THEOS which is GOD! Yes, THEOS is God in Greek and the word THEION comes directly from this Source.
 Quoting:


Consider this passage from Acts:

Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the DIVINE Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

The word translated here DIVINE is THEION which has been translated sulfur in other passages like in Revelation. The lake of Fire has a direct connection to the Divine because it comes from God. Not only is this a Divine Fire, but it is one that PURIFIES whatever it comes in contact with. Are we to suppose that our God and Father has no purpose in this Fire that torments those He created in His image and likeness? All that God does has purpose, we simply can't comprehend it yet. ...
The next word to look at is "AION" and its derivatives- "AIONION" and "AIONIOS." That ugly doctrine of "eternal" hell greatly depends on this word meaning forever. ...
 Quoting:

None of that is going to change that only a certain number will be alive for the 1,000 years, a small number when compared to all people who have lived. After the 1,000 years is over the group that was alive for it will reside inside New Jerusalem for eternity, that also means from the start of the 1,000 years they will be a static number and that will apply for the time they are also in New Jerusalem, their 'children' will be all the ones living outside the wallas as they will be their Priest and Kings

There are many passages I could cite showing that AION or OLAM doesn't mean forever, but concerning an AGE or AGE-LASTING. The many derivatives of AION are relating to an age or of the ages. Aionios is rendered "age-lasting" in better translations. The corrective punishment God uses is only for as long as it takes to bring godly sorrow and repentance. Many literal translations of the Bible have corrected this mistake as to bring back loving harmony to God's word as you will read later in this study. To reiterate, aion means an age- a limited period of time and NOT eternal, forever nor forever and ever. ...
 Quoting:

We agree that their punishment has a beginning and an end, hell doesn't open until Jesus starts killing people and it is closed when God empties the place at the GWT.

The word for punishment here is "KOLASIS." The meaning is to punish, but for CORRECTIVE purposes and not out of vengeance. God is correcting those nations on His left with "aionion kolasis" which is translated this way in these Bibles:


"And these shall go away into age-abiding CORRECTION" -Rotherham's Emphasized Bible ..."

From an article called Honor and Pain - A Refocus on the Atonement and Eternal Punishment from the Tektonics.org website:
 Quoting:

Matthew 25 says the goats will go to the place prepared for fallen angels, that is the Pit on earth (hell) rather than their 2nd destination, the fiery lake.

"... The 'logic' of hell in the bible is surprisingly simple: You receive back the treatment/effects you gave other agents (including God and yourself) with some kind of multiplier effect. [The bible is full of images of this reciprocity concept: reaping what you sow, being paid back, suffering loss as you had despoiled others, unkindness for unkindness shown, apathy for apathy rendered, 'eye for an eye', proportional judgement, etc] This is suited as well to what we have said of honor debts and shame as a response. You dishonor God; you receive dishonor in return. Appropriately your required response is to acknowledge your own need -- in effect, giving up your "honor" -- by admitting that you need God's help to pay the debt. ..."

[link to www.broadcaster.org.uk]
 Quoting:

One point you didn't include is it is Satan's followers that get sent to hell but when Satan is released after the 1,000 years they are left in hell so they cannot join with Satan again before Satan is sent to the fiery lake, if that was the destination for them they would have been released with Satan, they are kept in hell so they cannot fall a 2nd time.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 01:22 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either

Is it fair that the Bible says people can get into heaven by simply believing in Jesus, when there might be some far better people around who might go to hell simply because they didn't believe in him?
 Quoting: Salt

To get into hell you have to belong to an 'army' that exists on earth on the days Jesus returns, that will get you into hell for the 1,000 years. Anybody in the grave before then does not go to hell, they spend the same time being asleep in a dreamless state, both are resurrected to life at the Great White Throne and even the ones in hell are clean and without sin at that point because being in hell was the full punishment God has determined, eternal means as long as hell exists.


This is the first verse in the bible that refers to post-death, post-resurrection, long-term effects of this life, for those who actively reject God’s goodness. Notice that the 'quality of life' is described as 'disgrace' and 'contempt'--hardly mind-numbing torture terms! If the hell-experience had been understood as the intense suffering commonly attributed to it, then this verse has focused on very minor aspects of that--to the point of being misleading perhaps.
2. The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages: ...

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (matt 13.40)
 Quoting:

That same group destined for the sword is referenced in Isaiah 65 as being under punishment, the latter part of that chapter has the same group building houses and living in them in the new earth. The 'servants' in that chapter will live inside New Jerusalem so they will not be building houses only the ones outside the wall of the city will do that, they are also the only group that has children.

Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13.47) ...
 Quoting:

That is hell for the 1,000 years, they also get to look on their 'former leader' (Isa:14) and they will be mocking him so that is repenting in a form but there are no early releases from death or hell after the 1,000 years begins.

But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (matt 24.48ff) ...
 Quoting:

That is what happens to unrepented people, they miss out on being with Jesus for the 1,000 years, they meet God at the GWT event so that is the day they get saved, rather than they never get salvation.

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13.28ff)
 Quoting:

Zec:13 says the split will be 1/3 left alive and 2/3 bite the dust on that same afternoon. The 1/3 will be joined by many that need resurrection to be back in the land of the living.

The discomfort described here is weeping/sorrow, NOT screaming/pain--contrary to most of the popular images of hell used for this question.

Notice that a few of these passages have the 'darkness' and 'fire' images, but the effects are cast in terms of sorrow ('weeping') and anguish/regret/anger ('gnashing of teeth', cf. Acts 7.54, Ps 37.12). Notice especially that in the Lucan passage the weeping occurs "when they see" their own exclusion--it is due to the separation issue, not some torture or pain. ...
 Quoting:



Hell is thought by many to be eternal. But an examination of the original Greek words apparently sheds a new light on it, and according to some, it turns out that hell is a process of punishment meant to refine and correct faults, to bring people to feel sorrow for their past behaviour so they sincerely seek forgiveness and wish to change their ways, at which point, they can be allowed into heaven.
 Quoting:

If you are unrepented whenthe 7th trump sounds you will be waiting till the GWT before you are saved, beter late than never.


From an article called Is It All GREEK to You? by brad edwards:

"... While on the topic of "FIRE," let's consider another strong passage from Revelation.

REV 14:10"...he will be tormented with burning SULFUR in the PRESENCE of the holy angels and the Lamb"
 Quoting:

In this verse we see the word "SULFUR" used for "tormenting" (punishing) those who follow the Beast. Also note that this is done in the PRESENCE of Jesus and not in some subterranean fire pit away from God. It is this PRESENSE of our holy God that causes their pain to be sure. So what is SULFUR? Well, in some Bibles it is translated "brimstone," but the Greek word here is "THEION" which can also be translated DIVINE as in something from God. Places that lightning touched were called "theia" and left a sulfurous smell. Also sulfur was used in purification ceremonies in that day by some outside of Judea. The real key here is that THEION is derived from THEOS which is GOD! Yes, THEOS is God in Greek and the word THEION comes directly from this Source.
 Quoting:

Consider this passage from Acts:

Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the DIVINE Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

The word translated here DIVINE is THEION which has been translated sulfur in other passages like in Revelation. The lake of Fire has a direct connection to the Divine because it comes from God. Not only is this a Divine Fire, but it is one that PURIFIES whatever it comes in contact with. Are we to suppose that our God and Father has no purpose in this Fire that torments those He created in His image and likeness? All that God does has purpose, we simply can't comprehend it yet. ...
The next word to look at is "AION" and its derivatives- "AIONION" and "AIONIOS." That ugly doctrine of "eternal" hell greatly depends on this word meaning forever. ...
 Quoting:

None of that is going to change that only a certain number will be alive for the 1,000 years, a small number when compared to all people who have lived. After the 1,000 years is over the group that was alive for it will reside inside New Jerusalem for eternity, that also means from the start of the 1,000 years they will be a static number and that will apply for the time they are also in New Jerusalem, their 'children' will be all the ones living outside the wallas as they will be their Priest and Kings

There are many passages I could cite showing that AION or OLAM doesn't mean forever, but concerning an AGE or AGE-LASTING. The many derivatives of AION are relating to an age or of the ages. Aionios is rendered "age-lasting" in better translations. The corrective punishment God uses is only for as long as it takes to bring godly sorrow and repentance. Many literal translations of the Bible have corrected this mistake as to bring back loving harmony to God's word as you will read later in this study. To reiterate, aion means an age- a limited period of time and NOT eternal, forever nor forever and ever. ...
 Quoting:

We agree that their punishment has a beginning and an end, hell doesn't open until Jesus starts killing people and it is closed when God empties the place at the GWT.

The word for punishment here is "KOLASIS." The meaning is to punish, but for CORRECTIVE purposes and not out of vengeance. God is correcting those nations on His left with "aionion kolasis" which is translated this way in these Bibles:


"And these shall go away into age-abiding CORRECTION" -Rotherham's Emphasized Bible ..."

From an article called Honor and Pain - A Refocus on the Atonement and Eternal Punishment from the Tektonics.org website:
 Quoting:

Matthew 25 says the goats will go to the place prepared for fallen angels, that is the Pit on earth (hell) rather than their 2nd destination, the fiery lake.

"... The 'logic' of hell in the bible is surprisingly simple: You receive back the treatment/effects you gave other agents (including God and yourself) with some kind of multiplier effect. [The bible is full of images of this reciprocity concept: reaping what you sow, being paid back, suffering loss as you had despoiled others, unkindness for unkindness shown, apathy for apathy rendered, 'eye for an eye', proportional judgement, etc] This is suited as well to what we have said of honor debts and shame as a response. You dishonor God; you receive dishonor in return. Appropriately your required response is to acknowledge your own need -- in effect, giving up your "honor" -- by admitting that you need God's help to pay the debt. ..."

[link to www.broadcaster.org.uk]
 Quoting:

One point you didn't include is it is Satan's followers that get sent to hell but when Satan is released after the 1,000 years they are left in hell so they cannot join with Satan again before Satan is sent to the fiery lake, if that was the destination for them they would have been released with Satan, they are kept in hell so they cannot fall a 2nd time.
 Quoting:


thanks for extrapolating these points.

nice!
Stickyfoot

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11/19/2012 02:00 PM

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
bumppeacelooks like you might be a little shy on stars so 5 to you
Stickyfoot,i think i stepped in something
Stickyfoot

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11/19/2012 02:02 PM

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
it looks like i have already given 5 votes -hmmm ,the vote system is not available
Stickyfoot,i think i stepped in something
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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11/19/2012 02:04 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
it looks like i have already given 5 votes -hmmm ,the vote system is not available
 Quoting: Stickyfoot


darn...!

but, thanks anyway!
jacksprat

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11/19/2012 02:06 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
I love Hell unconditionally
jacksprat
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11/19/2012 02:07 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
I love Hell unconditionally
 Quoting: jacksprat


actually, it's a place of purification, so at the end of the day, we should.
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11/19/2012 02:13 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
[link to www.savior-of-all.com]

The Lake of Fire is very real and the wicked,rebellious, and faithless will be cast into it if they do not repent dying the second death, total annihilation.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

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