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The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either

 
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 12:34 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
here is the whole chapter. i think it is important to read at least 10-20 verses before and after each scripture to grasp the entire context.

Revelation 14

New International Version (NIV)
The Lamb and the 144,000

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
The Three Angels

6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

[link to www.biblegateway.com]
 Quoting: Salt


It is humbling to read it again.
 Quoting: Borian


true that.

see the part i bolded and underlined above?
this is the part that most people cannot grasp.

IN THE PRESENCE of the Holy Angels and the Lamb.....
 Quoting: Salt


REV 14:10"...he will be tormented with burning SULFUR in the PRESENCE of the holy angels and the Lamb"

In this verse we see the word "SULFUR" used for "tormenting" (punishing) those who follow the Beast. Also note that this is done in the PRESENCE of Jesus and not in some subterranean fire pit away from God. It is this PRESENSE of our holy God that causes their pain to be sure. So what is SULFUR? Well, in some Bibles it is translated "brimstone," but the Greek word here is "THEION" which can also be translated DIVINE as in something from God. Places that lightning touched were called "theia" and left a sulfurous smell. Also sulfur was used in purification ceremonies in that day by some outside of Judea. The real key here is that THEION is derived from THEOS which is GOD! Yes, THEOS is God in Greek and the word THEION comes directly from this Source.

Consider this passage from Acts:

Act 17:29 "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the DIVINE Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man."

The word translated here DIVINE is THEION which has been translated sulfur in other passages like in Revelation. The lake of Fire has a direct connection to the Divine because it comes from God. Not only is this a Divine Fire, but it is one that PURIFIES whatever it comes in contact with. Are we to suppose that our God and Father has no purpose in this Fire that torments those He created in His image and likeness? All that God does has purpose, we simply can't comprehend it yet. ...

The next word to look at is "AION" and its derivatives- "AIONION" and "AIONIOS." That ugly doctrine of "eternal" hell greatly depends on this word meaning forever. ...

There are many passages I could cite showing that AION or OLAM doesn't mean forever, but concerning an AGE or AGE-LASTING. The many derivatives of AION are relating to an age or of the ages. Aionios is rendered "age-lasting" in better translations. The corrective punishment God uses is only for as long as it takes to bring godly sorrow and repentance. Many literal translations of the Bible have corrected this mistake as to bring back loving harmony to God's word as you will read later in this study. To reiterate, aion means an age- a limited period of time and NOT eternal, forever nor forever and ever.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 12:37 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


it is punishment because you don't get to be with the Father/Creator.

there is a scripture that says that when we die we are instantly with the Father. this is true even in the purification process. it is with Divine Holy fire that we are purified. God is present every moment of it.

Everyone will go thru this process. The thing is, is how long will it take?
 Quoting: Salt


But you stated, "they will cease to exist (eternally)?"

You're not contradicting yourself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


Oh come on, are you really nitpicking that one close. She clearly told you that it is punishment because you don't get to be with the creator, and I do happen to agree.

If you wish to argue athiestic religion, let me know. I enjoy those.
 Quoting: Borian


If you think 'eternal punishment' refers to a person being annihilated, and forever away from God.

How do you explain this:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

If a person is completely annihilated and conscious of nothing, how do they have 'no rest day or night'? Also it doesn't state, the smoke of their destruction, but rather, the smoke of their 'torment (greek basanismos)' that rises forever and ever.



Basanismos -
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079

When the letter of Jude describes the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah as "eternal fire," the point is not that the fire literally burns forever without consuming the cities; it is not that the fire continues to burn even today. The point is that the fire is a form of divine judgment upon those cities...that has its causal source in the eternal God himself. And similar for Jesus' references to "eternal fire" in Matthew 25:41 and to "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46. The fire to which he alludes is not eternal in the sense that it burns forever without consuming anything - without consuming, for example, that which is false within a person (see 1 Cor. 3:15) - and neither is the punishment eternal in the sense that it continues forever without accomplishing its corrective purpose. Both the fire and the punishment are eternal in the sense that they have their causal source in the eternal God himself. Professor Talbott pgs.28-29
[link to www.savior-of-all.com]
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 12:38 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
here is the whole chapter. i think it is important to read at least 10-20 verses before and after each scripture to grasp the entire context.

Revelation 14

New International Version (NIV)
The Lamb and the 144,000

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
The Three Angels

6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

[link to www.biblegateway.com]
 Quoting: Salt


It is humbling to read it again.
 Quoting: Borian


true that.

see the part i bolded and underlined above?
this is the part that most people cannot grasp.

IN THE PRESENCE of the Holy Angels and the Lamb.....
 Quoting: Salt


Due to the infinite nature of God, could they not still be in His presence?

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 12:41 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
after the second death, they are separated from God forever. hell is the place of purification. this is in God's presence.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 12:46 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
This is a good thread Salt. I think you zeroed in on a lot of our Fathers truths.

Consider this with Rev 14:11. I may not explain it the best so work with the Father on this one.

Smoke does what? You see it at first but then it rises and then dissipates until it is gone.

Rest day or night. Who is our Rest? Christ is of course. So these people that are marked, either thru deception (likely) or choice, carry the mark because they do not know Christ, the Real one. What happens during the millennium in Ezekiel?


Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

The only thing I am a drifting away from you on is the rapture thing. I believe God will get the job done without harming a head on those that continue to love and honor him. He certainly has the power to do this. Remember there are two sides to judgement, both wrath and reward. Everyone alive when Christ foot hits the mount of olives will be changed to spirit.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 12:49 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


But you stated, "they will cease to exist (eternally)?"

You're not contradicting yourself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


Oh come on, are you really nitpicking that one close. She clearly told you that it is punishment because you don't get to be with the creator, and I do happen to agree.

If you wish to argue athiestic religion, let me know. I enjoy those.
 Quoting: Borian


If you think 'eternal punishment' refers to a person being annihilated, and forever away from God.

How do you explain this:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

If a person is completely annihilated and conscious of nothing, how do they have 'no rest day or night'? Also it doesn't state, the smoke of their destruction, but rather, the smoke of their 'torment (greek basanismos)' that rises forever and ever.



Basanismos -
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079

When the letter of Jude describes the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah as "eternal fire," the point is not that the fire literally burns forever without consuming the cities; it is not that the fire continues to burn even today. The point is that the fire is a form of divine judgment upon those cities...that has its causal source in the eternal God himself. And similar for Jesus' references to "eternal fire" in Matthew 25:41 and to "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46. The fire to which he alludes is not eternal in the sense that it burns forever without consuming anything - without consuming, for example, that which is false within a person (see 1 Cor. 3:15) - and neither is the punishment eternal in the sense that it continues forever without accomplishing its corrective purpose. Both the fire and the punishment are eternal in the sense that they have their causal source in the eternal God himself. Professor Talbott pgs.28-29
[link to www.savior-of-all.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1616631


Surely then, if this is the case and the correct analogy, then 'their worm[s] [that] dieth not' (Mark 9:48), would likewise be referring to God as well.

Don't think so.
Borian

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10/11/2012 12:51 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
here is the whole chapter. i think it is important to read at least 10-20 verses before and after each scripture to grasp the entire context.

Revelation 14

New International Version (NIV)
The Lamb and the 144,000

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
The Three Angels

6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

[link to www.biblegateway.com]
 Quoting: Salt


It is humbling to read it again.
 Quoting: Borian


true that.

see the part i bolded and underlined above?
this is the part that most people cannot grasp.

IN THE PRESENCE of the Holy Angels and the Lamb.....
 Quoting: Salt


Due to the infinite nature of God, could they not still be in His presence?

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


He is always next to you. Makes life easy and helps to sort through rest. To the non-beleivers, I can't give you anthing that you would define as proof. Try this please, ask him in private to give you exactly what you need the most, good or bad.

It's gonna take a bit, but when finished, life will be good.
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10/11/2012 12:54 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


It is humbling to read it again.
 Quoting: Borian


true that.

see the part i bolded and underlined above?
this is the part that most people cannot grasp.

IN THE PRESENCE of the Holy Angels and the Lamb.....
 Quoting: Salt


Due to the infinite nature of God, could they not still be in His presence?

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


He is always next to you. Makes life easy and helps to sort through rest. To the non-beleivers, I can't give you anthing that you would define as proof. Try this please, ask him in private to give you exactly what you need the most, good or bad.

It's gonna take a bit, but when finished, life will be good.
 Quoting: Borian


I do believe by the way, I'm a Christian. I think I can actually provide a tremendous amount of evidence, collected for many years, but it's primarily outside the Bible. For this thread, however, I'll primarily focus on the Bible right now.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 12:56 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Couldn't give a shit, burn me1
ANHEDONIC

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10/11/2012 12:59 AM

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Well..... Uhhhh...... Anyone in this thread ever like to think about the concept of 'hell' outside of the context of the bible or any other reigious text?

tomato

"You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger"
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Old

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

New

Hebrews 12
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Double witnessed above to verify.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 01:13 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Old

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

New

Hebrews 12
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Double witnessed above to verify.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
 Quoting: Brogan


nice.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 01:16 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
i think that anyone who leaves bad karma and doesn't reveal who they are, is a chump. seriously.

can't even say it to my face. cowards.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 01:31 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Old

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

New

Hebrews 12
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Double witnessed above to verify.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
 Quoting: Brogan


Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire,
48 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’

If God a 'consuming fire' is referring to hell fire. Then all would enter into the Kingdom of God, since God would be there as well. But verse 47, is clearly letting us know that the hell fire, isn't inside the Kingdom of God.

Also in verse 48, if the unquenching fire is referring to an aspect of God, then surely the worms that don't die, would also be referring to an aspect of God.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 01:35 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Old

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

New

Hebrews 12
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Double witnessed above to verify.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
 Quoting: Brogan


Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire,
48 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’

If God a 'consuming fire' is referring to hell fire. Then all would enter into the Kingdom of God, since God would be there as well. But verse 47, is clearly letting us know that the hell fire, isn't inside the Kingdom of God.

Also in verse 48, if the unquenching fire is referring to an aspect of God, then surely the worms that don't die, would also be referring to an aspect of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


where does it say that God is not present?

read the text this way

"it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye or be purified from that sin" there is nothing that says God is not in the other place.
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Great thread.

I notice it's extremely important to many Christians that hell be real, they WANT it to be real which I find a bit scary. They become very defensive and unhappy whenever someone provides information that suggests that perhaps hell is not what they think it is.
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Old

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

New

Hebrews 12
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Double witnessed above to verify.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
 Quoting: Brogan


Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire,
48 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’

If God a 'consuming fire' is referring to hell fire. Then all would enter into the Kingdom of God, since God would be there as well. But verse 47, is clearly letting us know that the hell fire, isn't inside the Kingdom of God.

Also in verse 48, if the unquenching fire is referring to an aspect of God, then surely the worms that don't die, would also be referring to an aspect of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


where does it say that God is not present?

read the text this way

"it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye or be purified from that sin" there is nothing that says God is not in the other place.
 Quoting: Salt


Like the fire, do you also believe the worms refer to an aspect of God?
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Great thread.

I notice it's extremely important to many Christians that hell be real, they WANT it to be real which I find a bit scary. They become very defensive and unhappy whenever someone provides information that suggests that perhaps hell is not what they think it is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24932179


It's not a matter of wanting it to be real, it's a matter of finding the truth.
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10/11/2012 01:44 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Old

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

New

Hebrews 12
29 For our God is a consuming fire.


Double witnessed above to verify.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
 Quoting: Brogan


Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire,
48 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’

If God a 'consuming fire' is referring to hell fire. Then all would enter into the Kingdom of God, since God would be there as well. But verse 47, is clearly letting us know that the hell fire, isn't inside the Kingdom of God.

Also in verse 48, if the unquenching fire is referring to an aspect of God, then surely the worms that don't die, would also be referring to an aspect of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


where does it say that God is not present?

read the text this way

"it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye or be purified from that sin" there is nothing that says God is not in the other place.
 Quoting: Salt


Like the fire, do you also believe the worms refer to an aspect of God?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


the worm is the sin, the evil within the person
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10/11/2012 01:45 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Great thread.

I notice it's extremely important to many Christians that hell be real, they WANT it to be real which I find a bit scary. They become very defensive and unhappy whenever someone provides information that suggests that perhaps hell is not what they think it is.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24932179


when you start rattling people's core beliefs, an unusual psychological dilemma unfolds for that person.

it is trippy.

denial, anger, disbelief, bargaining, etc etc
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10/11/2012 01:46 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire,
48 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’

If God a 'consuming fire' is referring to hell fire. Then all would enter into the Kingdom of God, since God would be there as well. But verse 47, is clearly letting us know that the hell fire, isn't inside the Kingdom of God.

Also in verse 48, if the unquenching fire is referring to an aspect of God, then surely the worms that don't die, would also be referring to an aspect of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


where does it say that God is not present?

read the text this way

"it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye or be purified from that sin" there is nothing that says God is not in the other place.
 Quoting: Salt


Like the fire, do you also believe the worms refer to an aspect of God?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


the worm is the sin, the evil within the person
 Quoting: Salt


But surely then, the fire would purify them of these sins / worms, but these of course 'dieth not'.
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10/11/2012 01:46 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
also, some Christians are AFRAID to accept it. they have been given heaping helpings of the fear message all of their lives. they really think they will burn in hell forever in eternal damnation and suffering if they consider this teaching.

good trick of the devil.
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10/11/2012 01:47 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
also, some Christians are AFRAID to accept it. they have been given heaping helpings of the fear message all of their lives. they really think they will burn in hell forever in eternal damnation and suffering if they consider this teaching.

good trick of the devil.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, we could go into NDEs, and the study of demonology, that further verifies my view.
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10/11/2012 01:48 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


where does it say that God is not present?

read the text this way

"it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye or be purified from that sin" there is nothing that says God is not in the other place.
 Quoting: Salt


Like the fire, do you also believe the worms refer to an aspect of God?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


the worm is the sin, the evil within the person
 Quoting: Salt


But surely then, the fire would purify them of these sins / worms, but these of course 'dieth not'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


this passage probably refers to those who will not be purified or will not let it go.

people do not really grasp how sin effects our lives. it gets deeply embedded. it is better to pluck out your friggin eye then have this sin/evil so embedded that it is near impossible or impossible to remove.
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10/11/2012 01:50 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
also, some Christians are AFRAID to accept it. they have been given heaping helpings of the fear message all of their lives. they really think they will burn in hell forever in eternal damnation and suffering if they consider this teaching.

good trick of the devil.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, we could go into NDEs, and the study of demonology, that further verifies my view.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


being near dead and completely dead are two different things. i wouldnt put much merit in NDEs. even those who really died, they came back and told their story. so.... they were not completely dead dead. knowhatimean.
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to fall, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire,
48 where ‘their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.’

If God a 'consuming fire' is referring to hell fire. Then all would enter into the Kingdom of God, since God would be there as well. But verse 47, is clearly letting us know that the hell fire, isn't inside the Kingdom of God.

Also in verse 48, if the unquenching fire is referring to an aspect of God, then surely the worms that don't die, would also be referring to an aspect of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


where does it say that God is not present?

read the text this way

"it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye or be purified from that sin" there is nothing that says God is not in the other place.
 Quoting: Salt


Like the fire, do you also believe the worms refer to an aspect of God?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


the worm is the sin, the evil within the person
 Quoting: Salt


You go girl

Two types of fire going on in Mark 9
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10/11/2012 01:51 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


Like the fire, do you also believe the worms refer to an aspect of God?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


the worm is the sin, the evil within the person
 Quoting: Salt


But surely then, the fire would purify them of these sins / worms, but these of course 'dieth not'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


this passage probably refers to those who will not be purified or will not let it go.

people do not really grasp how sin effects our lives. it gets deeply embedded. it is better to pluck out your friggin eye then have this sin/evil so embedded that it is near impossible or impossible to remove.
 Quoting: Salt


So these people, you believe remain in hell fire / God forever?
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10/11/2012 01:53 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
also, some Christians are AFRAID to accept it. they have been given heaping helpings of the fear message all of their lives. they really think they will burn in hell forever in eternal damnation and suffering if they consider this teaching.

good trick of the devil.
 Quoting: Salt


lol, we could go into NDEs, and the study of demonology, that further verifies my view.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


being near dead and completely dead are two different things. i wouldnt put much merit in NDEs. even those who really died, they came back and told their story. so.... they were not completely dead dead. knowhatimean.
 Quoting: Salt


Yes, but they knew of information that was impossible for them to know about during the NDE, but, was later proven to be true. Meaning what they experienced wasn't merely the product of their imagination.
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


the worm is the sin, the evil within the person
 Quoting: Salt


But surely then, the fire would purify them of these sins / worms, but these of course 'dieth not'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


this passage probably refers to those who will not be purified or will not let it go.

people do not really grasp how sin effects our lives. it gets deeply embedded. it is better to pluck out your friggin eye then have this sin/evil so embedded that it is near impossible or impossible to remove.
 Quoting: Salt


So these people, you believe remain in hell fire / God forever?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


augh...

when judgment day comes, those who are not purified at this point cannot enter the kingdom. this is the second death. the "gates" open and most will enter, but some will not.
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10/11/2012 01:58 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


But surely then, the fire would purify them of these sins / worms, but these of course 'dieth not'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


this passage probably refers to those who will not be purified or will not let it go.

people do not really grasp how sin effects our lives. it gets deeply embedded. it is better to pluck out your friggin eye then have this sin/evil so embedded that it is near impossible or impossible to remove.
 Quoting: Salt


So these people, you believe remain in hell fire / God forever?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


augh...

when judgment day comes, those who are not purified at this point cannot enter the kingdom. this is the second death. the "gates" open and most will enter, but some will not.
 Quoting: Salt


So at this point the argument is pretty much circular. You state, there's an annihilation. But of course due to other scriptures, such as Jesus talking about 'eternal punishment' and other verses, I say annihilation is a completely false doctrine.

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