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The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either

 
Life and Love

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10/11/2012 10:27 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Thanks for the thread, OP. hf

(I don't know why so many try to make this so hard.)
We become like that to which we are devoted. Choose wisely.
William_the_Bloody

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10/11/2012 10:40 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
There are Many kinds of Hell.

The first is called Sheol. It is an area outside of city walls where refuse and sewage is gotten rid of. People In Sheol were outcasts from the city, and the analogy is what would become of sinners in the resurrection of the Dead. This is a Temporal Hell.

The Second type of Hell is a purgatorial life on Earth, the result of accumulated Bad Karma. Each one of us is on Earth experiencing varying degrees of Purgatory, due to the Earth's current state of Polarity (being skewed Negative.)

The Third type of Hell is In-Between lives in the Astral Plane, spiritual purgatory. Just like the Earth, all spirits in the Astral plane experience varying degrees of Purgatory, from Paradise to Hellfire depending a great deal on one's karma, one's own personal expectations and one's belief system.

The Fourth type of Hell is like #2, except it happens after the second coming of Christ, after Armegeddon. Unsaved souls born into this world during Christ's millenial kingdom will find themselves outside of city walls, like in #1, but the Earth will be a very different place, mostly a wasteland that needs cleansing, rebuilding...toxic, radioactive and yet no death or relief will be found. People will still be ministered to and be saved during this time.

The Fifth type of Hell occurs after the Millenial Kingdom, when the Earth will fall away into the void, and those who were not saved will fall away with it, and the Earth will be thought of no more. Those remaining will ultimately face final destruction and their energy permanently dissapated into the extreme ends of Negative Polarity space.

In conclusion: There are plenty of Hells and Plenty of Heavens. The simple Childhood belief of Heaven being "Up" and Hell being "Down" remains accurate when one understands it's Polarity that is being referred to, not space. In Space, however, we can understand that Heaven is "North" or "Up" of the eccliptic and Hell is "South".

The Earth has spirits inhabiting flesh because the Earth used to be perfectly balanced in the middle. Earth lost it's way, sinking into negative space and, when it did, trapped the spirits here, either in bodies or in spirit form in the negative astral.

Earth is rising again and this purgatorial age will pass for 1000 years.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 10:42 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
OP - Are you now or have you ever been Mormon?
 Quoting: William_the_Bloody


No, never. there is nothing mormon in this teaching.
 Quoting: Salt


It's very Mormon, you're just not using the terms.
 Quoting: William_the_Bloody


are you a mormon?
the Mormons believe that whether you believe in God/Christ or not, it still comes down to your deeds and works that gains one entry into heaven.
they also believe that everyone gets their own planet for which they rule over.
they do not understand the saved-by-grace message, and they believe they will become gods of their own planet.

among many other cult beliefs.

sorry, there is nothing mormon in this teaching.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 10:43 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
you know shit about hell...i didnt read your post; but i assume u site one source, the bible and its non disclosures and misrepresentations.

that said, neither do i;

but i have my own theory: hell is a self made manifestation of ficticious knowledge acquired from institutional dictaates.

It is a ficticious construction and "god" has nothing to do with it.... only the man made (fiction) misrepresentations from the bible constitute "hell".... wich is usually consequences of inate human attributes that were adaptive at one time.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 126866


there are numerous sources in the orig post.
it's obvious you didn't read it.
too bad, you might have gained a new perspective.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 10:49 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
This is really good..thank you for sharing.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 10:54 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Hey Salt, Gonna challenge you on this one (with civility, of course!)...

I agree that hell is not necessarily active torment for everyone, though there are some who are said to suffer it. It is the place of "not God", the place of separation, the "second death" because death is separation. A well-behaved person who rejected the free offer of salvation will simply get what they chose: to be away from God, and thus from all that comes from God. The implications of this separation are bad enough.

But I must challenge the claim that hell is not eternal. Jesus said in Matthew 25:41,46, "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’… Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." If punishment is not eternal, then neither is life; they are in the same sentence and use the same word, aionion.

In John 3:36 Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

Hebrews 6:1-2 says, "Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of… the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

Jude 1:7 says, "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

There's little point in having an eternal fire if there are no souls there eternally.

I also have to challenge the rationale regarding Rev. 14:10, specifically the "root fallacy" of theion. The root word in this verse is #2303 theion, but the root of the word for God is #2316 theos. One cannot simply take part of a word and call it the same root, and the affixes often make one root into the same form as another, though Greek scholars show them to come from two completely different words. Sulfer is thus completely unrelated to God. The same applies to Acts 17:29.

Now to aion. As shown already, its duration must be defined in context. While in itself it simply means "an unknown length of time", we can only always restrict it to mean "an always limited length of time" by forcing it against the context, as shown re. Mat. 25:41,46. That is, if somethine is unspecified, it cannot be forced to always mean limited; the meaning of "everlasting" is included in "unknown". Note also Rev. 10:5, where aion describes God as "the eternal Living One"; who would say that God will not live forever?

And now to kolasis. That passage in Matthew refers to the same event as in Rev. "Correction" is only ONE part of the semantic range; it includes also "punishment". There is nothing in the word itself that must mean "not out of vengeance"; this must be derived from context. And if the context is not conclusive, then we cannot arbitrarily omit some of its semantic range.

But even if all of this evidence is discarded, consider this: To say that people can be tormented into submission is to paint God exactly as the atheists paint him, as someone who forces people to obey him. Salvation is all about love and relationship, and you cannot scare or punish people into a relationship. Do people want to live with someone they divorced, and do they come back after they've been punished by their estranged spouse? Of course not, but this is the situation with God punishing people in hell until they cry "uncle".
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


the passage in Matthew 25 you post is about the parable about the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. the sheep are the righteous, the goats are the unrighteous. the goats are the ones that will not repent in this life or the next.

this passage:
In John 3:36 Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

that is self-explanatory. again, he talks about the one's that will continue to reject the Son. this refers to the second death.

in greek, words are always derived from a root to glean meaning. as in theios. and, they will group two words to offer additional meaning.

the usage of any word in the statement compiles a meaning. i wouldn't pick it apart too intensely. the meanings are pretty obvious by looking at the word usage and how it is phrased in the sentence(s).

i don't see the purification process as utter torment. the passages say "weeping and gnashing of teeth". this is hardly horrible torment. however, it is extremely difficult.

for those who suffer the second death, maybe it is a place of eternal suffering, maybe it isn't. from what i have studied, it appears more that they will die, and it is an eternal decision that cannot be overturned. so, in that sense it is eternal.
ChivalryKnight

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10/11/2012 10:57 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Bump for reading
JerUSAlem! Do you know where the new promised land is?

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Jefferson

Laughter is health to the bones so just do it!
Keep2theCode

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10/11/2012 11:07 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
the passage in Matthew 25 you post is about the parable about the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. the sheep are the righteous, the goats are the unrighteous. the goats are the ones that will not repent in this life or the next.
 Quoting: Salt

I agree that the unrighteous will never repent. But there is nothing that says anyone repents after they leave this life. In fact, Rev. 22:10–11 say, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the unjust continue to harm; let the dirty remain dirty; let the just continue to be righteous; let the holy remain holy." This is a stamp of finality, of unchanging states for both the righteous and the unrighteous, and it would be circular reasoning to define the unrighteous as "those who won't repent in eternity". I see no support for the idea that some will repent after this life.

this passage:
In John 3:36 Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

that is self-explanatory. again, he talks about the one's that will continue to reject the Son. this refers to the second death.
 Quoting: Salt

Circular; where do we see anyone who repents after this life?

in greek, words are always derived from a root to glean meaning. as in theios. and, they will group two words to offer additional meaning.

the usage of any word in the statement compiles a meaning. i wouldn't pick it apart too intensely. the meanings are pretty obvious by looking at the word usage and how it is phrased in the sentence(s).
 Quoting: Salt

The etymology, semantic range, and definitions of the two roots are separate; there is no debating the fact that they are not the same root at all. Context is even stronger in favor of an eternal hell, since as I showed, it is paired with eternal life; where one ends, so ends the other.

i don't see the purification process as utter torment. the passages say "weeping and gnashing of teeth". this is hardly horrible torment. however, it is extremely difficult.

for those who suffer the second death, maybe it is a place of eternal suffering, maybe it isn't. from what i have studied, it appears more that they will die, and it is an eternal decision that cannot be overturned. so, in that sense it is eternal.
 Quoting: Salt

As I said, some in hell will simply be there, away from God, and nothing more. But they are still there for eternity is the point. An "eternal decision" hardly has meaning if the results are limited; why call it an "eternal decision" if it doesn't last forever? Similarly, eternal torment means exactly that, and an eternal fire has absolutely no meaning or purpose if there is nothing to burn.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
William_the_Bloody

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10/11/2012 11:08 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
OP - Are you now or have you ever been Mormon?
 Quoting: William_the_Bloody


No, never. there is nothing mormon in this teaching.
 Quoting: Salt


It's very Mormon, you're just not using the terms.
 Quoting: William_the_Bloody


are you a mormon?
the Mormons believe that whether you believe in God/Christ or not, it still comes down to your deeds and works that gains one entry into heaven.
they also believe that everyone gets their own planet for which they rule over.
they do not understand the saved-by-grace message, and they believe they will become gods of their own planet.

among many other cult beliefs.

sorry, there is nothing mormon in this teaching.
 Quoting: Salt


I was Mormon, it didn't take.

The Mormons believe that there are three levels of Heaven/afterlife and there's really not a hell, per se, but there is a paradise of regret and sorrow for the not-so-fresh...but it's still kind of nice.

The Second one is for not-so-great Mormons...more faith less work, you might say, and the Highest Heaven is for Mormons of both faith and works. This Heaven includes getting your own planet. Being saved by Grace is fine-and-well, and that will elevate a spirit, but not all the way is all.

That's all very similar to what you were saying, at least towards the front end of this thread.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 11:14 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
nobody goes to hell until after judgment. that doesnt happen the instant you die
 Quoting: Salt


So you do believe in an eternal hell?

If you believe a person can repent while in hell, and get out, what scriptures do you use to back up this claim?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


if a person can be purified they will be able to be with God. If they can't by the last "day" they will cease to exist (eternally)
 Quoting: Salt


there is a reason that nobody knows the day or the hour. that is because that day and hour has not been set yet.
 Quoting: Salt


No, it has. Remember, they never said, week, month, year... no one can know the DAY of the New Moon, nor the HOUR which it will rise. If it were cloudy, would you know the day or the hour the New Moon rose?

Do we need Russ here???




I always like to say, If EVERYONE gets 'saved', then y'all can stand next to Hitler, Sandusky, Pol Pot, Rebecca Black, etc.,... I'll be in the "other" room...

The "other" room
X^24

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10/11/2012 11:15 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
OP - Are you now or have you ever been Mormon?
 Quoting: William_the_Bloody


No, never. there is nothing mormon in this teaching.
 Quoting: Salt


It's very Mormon, you're just not using the terms.
 Quoting: William_the_Bloody


are you a mormon?
the Mormons believe that whether you believe in God/Christ or not, it still comes down to your deeds and works that gains one entry into heaven.
they also believe that everyone gets their own planet for which they rule over.
they do not understand the saved-by-grace message, and they believe they will become gods of their own planet.

among many other cult beliefs.

sorry, there is nothing mormon in this teaching.
 Quoting: Salt


Truth is truth regardless of how discovered .. for clarification on "After all we can do" doctrine - Thread: And the answer is............ (Page 3)

Deification was likewise taught in the early church.
The deception continues to crumble.
Thread: Tips for improving the GLP experience.
Christ was mischaracterized to the point of Crucifixion.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 11:16 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Salt do you "believe" in Satan and demons as actual entities, that are trying to destroy our souls?

Do you believe that Noahs ark and the flood was a literal event?

Do you believe Samson literally destroyed that temple at the end of his ministry?

Do you believe a donkey physically talked with man?

Do you believe that a serpent actually talked to two naked humans in a garden?

Do you you believe Jonah was actually in the belly of a fish three days?

Could you accept that the story of Jesus could not true be literally true, but very true metaphysically?


Very curious as to what you think on these questions. Thanks.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 11:30 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
the passage in Matthew 25 you post is about the parable about the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. the sheep are the righteous, the goats are the unrighteous. the goats are the ones that will not repent in this life or the next.
 Quoting: Salt

I agree that the unrighteous will never repent. But there is nothing that says anyone repents after they leave this life. In fact, Rev. 22:10–11 say, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the unjust continue to harm; let the dirty remain dirty; let the just continue to be righteous; let the holy remain holy." This is a stamp of finality, of unchanging states for both the righteous and the unrighteous, and it would be circular reasoning to define the unrighteous as "those who won't repent in eternity". I see no support for the idea that some will repent after this life.

this passage:
In John 3:36 Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

that is self-explanatory. again, he talks about the one's that will continue to reject the Son. this refers to the second death.
 Quoting: Salt

Circular; where do we see anyone who repents after this life?

in greek, words are always derived from a root to glean meaning. as in theios. and, they will group two words to offer additional meaning.

the usage of any word in the statement compiles a meaning. i wouldn't pick it apart too intensely. the meanings are pretty obvious by looking at the word usage and how it is phrased in the sentence(s).
 Quoting: Salt

The etymology, semantic range, and definitions of the two roots are separate; there is no debating the fact that they are not the same root at all. Context is even stronger in favor of an eternal hell, since as I showed, it is paired with eternal life; where one ends, so ends the other.

i don't see the purification process as utter torment. the passages say "weeping and gnashing of teeth". this is hardly horrible torment. however, it is extremely difficult.

for those who suffer the second death, maybe it is a place of eternal suffering, maybe it isn't. from what i have studied, it appears more that they will die, and it is an eternal decision that cannot be overturned. so, in that sense it is eternal.
 Quoting: Salt

As I said, some in hell will simply be there, away from God, and nothing more. But they are still there for eternity is the point. An "eternal decision" hardly has meaning if the results are limited; why call it an "eternal decision" if it doesn't last forever? Similarly, eternal torment means exactly that, and an eternal fire has absolutely no meaning or purpose if there is nothing to burn.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


regarding repenting after this life:
what would the purpose of purification be if there was no souls saved after this life? why would God be present with his holy fire if there were no souls that repent? what would the purpose of the second death be?

technically, everyone gets two chances.
for the ones who reject Christ in this life, it is off to weeping and gnashing.
Anonymous Coward
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10/11/2012 11:33 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
nobody goes to hell until after judgment. that doesnt happen the instant you die
 Quoting: Salt


So you do believe in an eternal hell?

If you believe a person can repent while in hell, and get out, what scriptures do you use to back up this claim?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


if a person can be purified they will be able to be with God. If they can't by the last "day" they will cease to exist (eternally)
 Quoting: Salt


there is a reason that nobody knows the day or the hour. that is because that day and hour has not been set yet.
 Quoting: Salt


Sorry if this has already been covered. I'm on page one still.

I agree with the cease to exist eternally part, but as to "not been set yet",I offer these scriptures for your consideration. [not to imply you haven't considered them, b/c you've said in the past you believe Father and Son are the same person, and I've never thought that. Even singing The Doxology-last line -"Praise father ,son and holy ghost." from childhood up, that 'trinity' message never sank in as I now believe it was meant to. I think Father and Son being the same person contradicted my direct but skimpy experience of the Bible itself and from my now more extensive knowledge, believe trinity doctrine is not supported in scripture.]

Acts 17:29 “Seeing, therefore, that we are the progeny of God, we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man.30True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent.31Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

I included vs. 30+ 31 for context.

“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 11:33 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
Salt do you "believe" in Satan and demons as actual entities, that are trying to destroy our souls?

YES

Do you believe that Noahs ark and the flood was a literal event?

YES

Do you believe Samson literally destroyed that temple at the end of his ministry?

YES

Do you believe a donkey physically talked with man?

NO i think the angel standing behind him spoke.

Do you believe that a serpent actually talked to two naked humans in a garden?

YES

Do you you believe Jonah was actually in the belly of a fish three days?

YES

Could you accept that the story of Jesus could not true be literally true, but very true metaphysically?

NO. Too much historical and archaelogical evidence.

Very curious as to what you think on these questions. Thanks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15693188
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 11:35 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


So you do believe in an eternal hell?

If you believe a person can repent while in hell, and get out, what scriptures do you use to back up this claim?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


if a person can be purified they will be able to be with God. If they can't by the last "day" they will cease to exist (eternally)
 Quoting: Salt


there is a reason that nobody knows the day or the hour. that is because that day and hour has not been set yet.
 Quoting: Salt


Sorry if this has already been covered. I'm on page one still.

I agree with the cease to exist eternally part, but as to "not been set yet",I offer these scriptures for your consideration. [not to imply you haven't considered them, b/c you've said in the past you believe Father and Son are the same person, and I've never thought that. Even singing The Doxology-last line -"Praise father ,son and holy ghost." from childhood up, that 'trinity' message never sank in as I now believe it was meant to. I think Father and Son being the same person contradicted my direct but skimpy experience of the Bible itself and from my now more extensive knowledge, believe trinity doctrine is not supported in scripture.]

Acts 17:29 “Seeing, therefore, that we are the progeny of God, we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man.30True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent.31Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

I included vs. 30+ 31 for context.

“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


i think God knows how long it will take to get to the "day"
God knows. But, the day is still "open"

i don't know how to explain it. i will ponder a bit.
Keep2theCode

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10/11/2012 11:37 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
regarding repenting after this life:
what would the purpose of purification be if there was no souls saved after this life? why would God be present with his holy fire if there were no souls that repent? what would the purpose of the second death be?

technically, everyone gets two chances.
for the ones who reject Christ in this life, it is off to weeping and gnashing.
 Quoting: Salt


And what is the purpose of a purifying fire that burns forever if there's nobody there? The only answer that makes sense to me is that this is not mere purification. And again, your argument depends upon theos and theion being the same root when they are not. And the 2nd death is the 2nd separation; it's purpose is to keep people away from the God they rejected. The first death is separation of spirit from body, but it is only permanent for the unrighteous.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 11:41 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
regarding repenting after this life:
what would the purpose of purification be if there was no souls saved after this life? why would God be present with his holy fire if there were no souls that repent? what would the purpose of the second death be?

technically, everyone gets two chances.
for the ones who reject Christ in this life, it is off to weeping and gnashing.
 Quoting: Salt


And what is the purpose of a purifying fire that burns forever if there's nobody there? The only answer that makes sense to me is that this is not mere purification. And again, your argument depends upon theos and theion being the same root when they are not. And the 2nd death is the 2nd separation; it's purpose is to keep people away from the God they rejected. The first death is separation of spirit from body, but it is only permanent for the unrighteous.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


i have to go let my dog out. be right back.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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10/11/2012 11:48 AM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
regarding repenting after this life:
what would the purpose of purification be if there was no souls saved after this life? why would God be present with his holy fire if there were no souls that repent? what would the purpose of the second death be?

technically, everyone gets two chances.
for the ones who reject Christ in this life, it is off to weeping and gnashing.
 Quoting: Salt


And what is the purpose of a purifying fire that burns forever if there's nobody there?
The only answer that makes sense to me is that this is not mere purification. And again, your argument depends upon theos and theion being the same root when they are not. And the 2nd death is the 2nd separation; it's purpose is to keep people away from the God they rejected. The first death is separation of spirit from body, but it is only permanent for the unrighteous.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


that's the thing. its for an aeion. an undisclosed amount of time. not necessarily forever.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
regarding repenting after this life:
what would the purpose of purification be if there was no souls saved after this life? why would God be present with his holy fire if there were no souls that repent? what would the purpose of the second death be?

technically, everyone gets two chances.
for the ones who reject Christ in this life, it is off to weeping and gnashing.
 Quoting: Salt


And what is the purpose of a purifying fire that burns forever if there's nobody there? The only answer that makes sense to me is that this is not mere purification. And again, your argument depends upon theos and theion being the same root when they are not. And the 2nd death is the 2nd separation; it's purpose is to keep people away from the God they rejected. The first death is separation of spirit from body, but it is only permanent for the unrighteous.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


try this teaching- do a google search for:
First and Second Death 1 - Twelve Tribes Teachings

it's a PDF
Keep2theCode

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
that's the thing. its for an aeion. an undisclosed amount of time. not necessarily forever.
 Quoting: Salt

I already went over that; it means "an unknown period of time", not "a limited time". Context supplies the duration if at all, and when life and death are paired with the same word, they both are for the same duration. So the only choice then would be to say that life is not eternal either.

ADDED: I have a NT translation by someone who does not believe in eternal torment. She is a recognized expert in both classical and Koine Greek. Yet she renders it "sulfur" in Rev. 14:10. I will get the link and add it here.

[link to englishbibles.blogspot.com] This is an interview, but the text is no longer available free online. I have the printed version. (Note: I do NOT endorse everything she believes, but only cite her as an authority who takes your view of hell yet still renders theios as sulfer.)

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/11/2012 11:55 AM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
that's the thing. its for an aeion. an undisclosed amount of time. not necessarily forever.
 Quoting: Salt

I already went over that; it means "an unknown period of time", not "a limited time". Context supplies the duration if at all, and when life and death are paired with the same word, they both are for the same duration. So the only choice then would be to say that life is not eternal either.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



i'm trying to wrap my head around what you are saying.
the way i interpret it is that the aeion is the undisclosed amount of time that it takes to purify a soul. there is no connection between that and the eternity of everything else.
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
that's the thing. its for an aeion. an undisclosed amount of time. not necessarily forever.
 Quoting: Salt

I already went over that; it means "an unknown period of time", not "a limited time". Context supplies the duration if at all, and when life and death are paired with the same word, they both are for the same duration. So the only choice then would be to say that life is not eternal either.

ADDED: I have a NT translation by someone who does not believe in eternal torment. She is a recognized expert in both classical and Koine Greek. Yet she renders it "sulfur" in Rev. 14:10. I will get the link and add it here.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


cool. sulfur is a purification agent.
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
i'm trying to wrap my head around what you are saying.
the way i interpret it is that the aeion is the undisclosed amount of time that it takes to purify a soul. there is no connection between that and the eternity of everything else.
 Quoting: Salt

Think of it as "indefinite". Eternity certainly fits the definition. Yet the bigger problem still is that whatever the duration of suffering is, so also is the duration of life.

cool. sulfur is a purification agent.
 Quoting: Salt

God and sulfur are not the same. We also say that God is love, but love is not always God.

ADDED: a list of articles on universalism; esp. "Temporary Eternity" might be of interest.
[link to www.fether.net]

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/11/2012 12:03 PM
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X^24

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


The word "gospel" literally translated means good news, and that it is, even for those that don't follow it's precepts.

The vast majority of people on this Earth will inherit a degree of glory even the least of which would cause many men and women to commit suicide to immediately attain it. Only those spirits that followed Satan in the pre-existence and those that deny the holy ghost after having received a sure knowledge of it shall not inherit a degree of glory per this passage recently posted on this very thread.

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Matt. 12:31–32).

Why the distinction?
Thread: GOD IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! AMEN!!! (Page 6)
The deception continues to crumble.
Thread: Tips for improving the GLP experience.
Christ was mischaracterized to the point of Crucifixion.
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


So you do believe in an eternal hell?

If you believe a person can repent while in hell, and get out, what scriptures do you use to back up this claim?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


if a person can be purified they will be able to be with God. If they can't by the last "day" they will cease to exist (eternally)
 Quoting: Salt


there is a reason that nobody knows the day or the hour. that is because that day and hour has not been set yet.
 Quoting: Salt


No, it has. Remember, they never said, week, month, year... no one can know the DAY of the New Moon, nor the HOUR which it will rise. If it were cloudy, would you know the day or the hour the New Moon rose?

Do we need Russ here???




I always like to say, If EVERYONE gets 'saved', then y'all can stand next to Hitler, Sandusky, Pol Pot, Rebecca Black, etc.,... I'll be in the "other" room...

The "other" room
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10777137

I know New Moon was very important to determine Passover, etc., and furthermore, "1st visible, after sunset, new moon over Jerusalem". But now I think they can predict with accuracy,at least the day. Is this what you mean?
LOL- "Rebecca Black"
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
The word "gospel" literally translated means good news, and that it is, even for those that don't follow it's precepts.

The vast majority of people on this Earth will inherit a degree of glory even the least of which would cause many men and women to commit suicide to immediately attain it. Only those spirits that followed Satan in the pre-existence and those that deny the holy ghost after having received a sure knowledge of it shall not inherit a degree of glory per this passage recently posted on this very thread.

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Matt. 12:31–32).

Why the distinction?
Thread: GOD IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! AMEN!!! (Page 6)
 Quoting: X^24


Where is the scripture that teaches or shows anyone getting a second chance in the next life?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
among many other cult beliefs.

 Quoting: Salt


Christ was mis-characterized to the point of crucifixion.
The deception continues to crumble.
Thread: Tips for improving the GLP experience.
Christ was mischaracterized to the point of Crucifixion.
_2 swords_

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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
...


So believe 'eternal punishment' refers to a person ceasing to exist eternally? If a person is no longer exists, he / she can no longer be eternally punished.

Doesn't make sense.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


it is punishment because you don't get to be with the Father/Creator.

there is a scripture that says that when we die we are instantly with the Father. this is true even in the purification process. it is with Divine Holy fire that we are purified. God is present every moment of it.

Everyone will go thru this process. The thing is, is how long will it take?
 Quoting: Salt


But you stated, "they will cease to exist (eternally)?"

You're not contradicting yourself.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25304079


maybe i am not explaining myself well.

when you die, you will go thru a purification process. it takes as long as it takes. for some, they refuse to repent (become purified) therefore they cannot reside in the holiest place.

holy cannot be in the same place as unholy.
if there is anything unholy in a person, it is either "burned away" with holy divine "fire" or it isn't.

for those that refuse to be purified, they will go to the same place as Satan, the False Prophet, demons and death. This is the second death. there is no more for these after that point. They simply will not exist anymore.

tell me something, when you are face to face with Jesus, will you still deny Him? hardly.

but, some will. some will refuse to let go of the evil parts of themselves. these will be eradicated with all evil.
 Quoting: Salt


None will refuse forever.

Philippians 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

God intends to reconcile 'all'

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

You are right about the separation of the good from the evil. When we read about the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven in Revelation, we see that it says that there are those that are 'without' the city.

Revelation 22:
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

This shows that the wicked are still there, but they are now shown 'without' the city. In other words they can not come into the city until they have been cleansed & repented of their wickedness.

Hell is being away from all of the good and living in a place with all of the evil ones. That is why there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. No one will want to stay out there very long.

This is one reason why there will be kings and priests on the earth then. To help instruct and teach these evil ones in righteousness.


Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Consider this

Mark 7:25For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:

26The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

27But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

28And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
29And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

This woman understood that the ones without would also benefit from the kingdom teachings. By His answer Jesus showed she was right.

Last Edited by _2 swords_ on 10/11/2012 12:20 PM
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Re: The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either
None will refuse forever.

Philippians 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

God intends to reconcile 'all'

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
 Quoting: _2 swords_


All will be made to bow the knee, but not all will do so willingly. No one can be forced to love God; it is impossible. And without love, there is no relationship, and no citizenship, and no adoption. You'd also have to include Satan et al, who clearly will never repent.

As for reconciling all, see 2 Cor. 5:18-21 "Yet it all comes from God, the One who reconciled us to himself by means of the Anointed and assigned us to this service of reconciliation. Through the Anointed God reconciled the world to himself, not holding their faults against them, and gave us the message of reconciliation. That means we are the Anointed's representatives and God pleads through us. So, on behalf of the Anointed, we plead with you to be reconciled to God! For this One who knew no sin was made sin for our sakes, so that because of Him we can become right with God."

Paul says two things that seem on the surface to be contradictory: we are reconciled, and we need to be reconciled. But the answer is clear when we remember what it means to reconcile. It cannot be done by only one person, even God; it takes two to reconcile, and both must be willing. So God offers reconciliation to all, but not all accept.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/11/2012 12:25 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)

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