The Truth about Hell - but the mainstream fundies can't accept it. and maybe you can't either

It's very Mormon, you're just not using the terms.

you know shit about hell...i didnt read your post; but i assume u site one source, the bible and its non disclosures and misrepresentations.

that said, neither do i;

but i have my own theory: hell is a self made manifestation of ficticious knowledge acquired from institutional dictaates.

It is a ficticious construction and "god" has nothing to do with it.... only the man made (fiction) misrepresentations from the bible constitute "hell".... wich is usually consequences of inate human attributes that were adaptive at one time.

Hey Salt, Gonna challenge you on this one (with civility, of course!)...

I agree that hell is not necessarily active torment for everyone, though there are some who are said to suffer it. It is the place of "not God", the place of separation, the "second death" because death is separation. A well-behaved person who rejected the free offer of salvation will simply get what they chose: to be away from God, and thus from all that comes from God. The implications of this separation are bad enough.

But I must challenge the claim that hell is not eternal. Jesus said in Matthew 25:41,46, "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’… Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." If punishment is not eternal, then neither is life; they are in the same sentence and use the same word, aionion.

In John 3:36 Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

Hebrews 6:1-2 says, "Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of… the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

Jude 1:7 says, "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

There's little point in having an eternal fire if there are no souls there eternally.

I also have to challenge the rationale regarding Rev. 14:10, specifically the "root fallacy" of theion. The root word in this verse is #2303 theion, but the root of the word for God is #2316 theos. One cannot simply take part of a word and call it the same root, and the affixes often make one root into the same form as another, though Greek scholars show them to come from two completely different words. Sulfer is thus completely unrelated to God. The same applies to Acts 17:29.

Now to aion. As shown already, its duration must be defined in context. While in itself it simply means "an unknown length of time", we can only always restrict it to mean "an always limited length of time" by forcing it against the context, as shown re. Mat. 25:41,46. That is, if somethine is unspecified, it cannot be forced to always mean limited; the meaning of "everlasting" is included in "unknown". Note also Rev. 10:5, where aion describes God as "the eternal Living One"; who would say that God will not live forever?

And now to kolasis. That passage in Matthew refers to the same event as in Rev. "Correction" is only ONE part of the semantic range; it includes also "punishment". There is nothing in the word itself that must mean "not out of vengeance"; this must be derived from context. And if the context is not conclusive, then we cannot arbitrarily omit some of its semantic range.

But even if all of this evidence is discarded, consider this: To say that people can be tormented into submission is to paint God exactly as the atheists paint him, as someone who forces people to obey him. Salvation is all about love and relationship, and you cannot scare or punish people into a relationship. Do people want to live with someone they divorced, and do they come back after they've been punished by their estranged spouse? Of course not, but this is the situation with God punishing people in hell until they cry "uncle".

the passage in Matthew 25 you post is about the parable about the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. the sheep are the righteous, the goats are the unrighteous. the goats are the ones that will not repent in this life or the next.

this passage:
In John 3:36 Jesus said, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

that is self-explanatory. again, he talks about the one's that will continue to reject the Son. this refers to the second death.

in greek, words are always derived from a root to glean meaning. as in theios. and, they will group two words to offer additional meaning.

the usage of any word in the statement compiles a meaning. i wouldn't pick it apart too intensely. the meanings are pretty obvious by looking at the word usage and how it is phrased in the sentence(s).

i don't see the purification process as utter torment. the passages say "weeping and gnashing of teeth". this is hardly horrible torment. however, it is extremely difficult.

for those who suffer the second death, maybe it is a place of eternal suffering, maybe it isn't. from what i have studied, it appears more that they will die, and it is an eternal decision that cannot be overturned. so, in that sense it is eternal.

are you a mormon?
the Mormons believe that whether you believe in God/Christ or not, it still comes down to your deeds and works that gains one entry into heaven.
they also believe that everyone gets their own planet for which they rule over.
they do not understand the saved-by-grace message, and they believe they will become gods of their own planet.

among many other cult beliefs.

sorry, there is nothing mormon in this teaching.

there is a reason that nobody knows the day or the hour. that is because that day and hour has not been set yet.

are you a mormon?
the Mormons believe that whether you believe in God/Christ or not, it still comes down to your deeds and works that gains one entry into heaven.
they also believe that everyone gets their own planet for which they rule over.
they do not understand the saved-by-grace message, and they believe they will become gods of their own planet.

among many other cult beliefs.

sorry, there is nothing mormon in this teaching.

I agree that the unrighteous will never repent. But there is nothing that says anyone repents after they leave this life. In fact, Rev. 22:10–11 say, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the unjust continue to harm; let the dirty remain dirty; let the just continue to be righteous; let the holy remain holy." This is a stamp of finality, of unchanging states for both the righteous and the unrighteous, and it would be circular reasoning to define the unrighteous as "those who won't repent in eternity". I see no support for the idea that some will repent after this life.


Circular; where do we see anyone who repents after this life?


The etymology, semantic range, and definitions of the two roots are separate; there is no debating the fact that they are not the same root at all. Context is even stronger in favor of an eternal hell, since as I showed, it is paired with eternal life; where one ends, so ends the other.


As I said, some in hell will simply be there, away from God, and nothing more. But they are still there for eternity is the point. An "eternal decision" hardly has meaning if the results are limited; why call it an "eternal decision" if it doesn't last forever? Similarly, eternal torment means exactly that, and an eternal fire has absolutely no meaning or purpose if there is nothing to burn.

there is a reason that nobody knows the day or the hour. that is because that day and hour has not been set yet.

Salt do you "believe" in Satan and demons as actual entities, that are trying to destroy our souls?

YES

Do you believe that Noahs ark and the flood was a literal event?

YES

Do you believe Samson literally destroyed that temple at the end of his ministry?

YES

Do you believe a donkey physically talked with man?

NO i think the angel standing behind him spoke.

Do you believe that a serpent actually talked to two naked humans in a garden?

YES

Do you you believe Jonah was actually in the belly of a fish three days?

YES

Could you accept that the story of Jesus could not true be literally true, but very true metaphysically?

NO. Too much historical and archaelogical evidence.

Very curious as to what you think on these questions. Thanks.

Sorry if this has already been covered. I'm on page one still.

I agree with the cease to exist eternally part, but as to "not been set yet",I offer these scriptures for your consideration. [not to imply you haven't considered them, b/c you've said in the past you believe Father and Son are the same person, and I've never thought that. Even singing The Doxology-last line -"Praise father ,son and holy ghost." from childhood up, that 'trinity' message never sank in as I now believe it was meant to. I think Father and Son being the same person contradicted my direct but skimpy experience of the Bible itself and from my now more extensive knowledge, believe trinity doctrine is not supported in scripture.]

Acts 17:29 “Seeing, therefore, that we are the progeny of God, we ought not to imagine that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and contrivance of man.30True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent.31Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”

I included vs. 30+ 31 for context.

“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36)

regarding repenting after this life:
what would the purpose of purification be if there was no souls saved after this life? why would God be present with his holy fire if there were no souls that repent? what would the purpose of the second death be?

technically, everyone gets two chances.
for the ones who reject Christ in this life, it is off to weeping and gnashing.

And what is the purpose of a purifying fire that burns forever if there's nobody there? The only answer that makes sense to me is that this is not mere purification. And again, your argument depends upon theos and theion being the same root when they are not. And the 2nd death is the 2nd separation; it's purpose is to keep people away from the God they rejected. The first death is separation of spirit from body, but it is only permanent for the unrighteous.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.

And what is the purpose of a purifying fire that burns forever if there's nobody there? The only answer that makes sense to me is that this is not mere purification. And again, your argument depends upon theos and theion being the same root when they are not. And the 2nd death is the 2nd separation; it's purpose is to keep people away from the God they rejected. The first death is separation of spirit from body, but it is only permanent for the unrighteous.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.

And what is the purpose of a purifying fire that burns forever if there's nobody there? The only answer that makes sense to me is that this is not mere purification. And again, your argument depends upon theos and theion being the same root when they are not. And the 2nd death is the 2nd separation; it's purpose is to keep people away from the God they rejected. The first death is separation of spirit from body, but it is only permanent for the unrighteous.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.

that's the thing. its for an aeion. an undisclosed amount of time. not necessarily forever.

I already went over that; it means "an unknown period of time", not "a limited time". Context supplies the duration if at all, and when life and death are paired with the same word, they both are for the same duration. So the only choice then would be to say that life is not eternal either.

I already went over that; it means "an unknown period of time", not "a limited time". Context supplies the duration if at all, and when life and death are paired with the same word, they both are for the same duration. So the only choice then would be to say that life is not eternal either.

ADDED: I have a NT translation by someone who does not believe in eternal torment. She is a recognized expert in both classical and Koine Greek. Yet she renders it "sulfur" in Rev. 14:10. I will get the link and add it here.

i'm trying to wrap my head around what you are saying.
the way i interpret it is that the aeion is the undisclosed amount of time that it takes to purify a soul. there is no connection between that and the eternity of everything else.

cool. sulfur is a purification agent.

I just don't see anyplace in scripture that gives anyone a second chance.

No, it has. Remember, they never said, week, month, year... no one can know the DAY of the New Moon, nor the HOUR which it will rise. If it were cloudy, would you know the day or the hour the New Moon rose?

Do we need Russ here???




I always like to say, If EVERYONE gets 'saved', then y'all can stand next to Hitler, Sandusky, Pol Pot, Rebecca Black, etc.,... I'll be in the "other" room...

The "other" room

The word "gospel" literally translated means good news, and that it is, even for those that don't follow it's precepts.

The vast majority of people on this Earth will inherit a degree of glory even the least of which would cause many men and women to commit suicide to immediately attain it. Only those spirits that followed Satan in the pre-existence and those that deny the holy ghost after having received a sure knowledge of it shall not inherit a degree of glory per this passage recently posted on this very thread.

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Matt. 12:31–32).

Why the distinction?
Thread: GOD IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! AMEN!!! (Page 6)

among many other cult beliefs.

maybe i am not explaining myself well.

when you die, you will go thru a purification process. it takes as long as it takes. for some, they refuse to repent (become purified) therefore they cannot reside in the holiest place.

holy cannot be in the same place as unholy.
if there is anything unholy in a person, it is either "burned away" with holy divine "fire" or it isn't.

for those that refuse to be purified, they will go to the same place as Satan, the False Prophet, demons and death. This is the second death. there is no more for these after that point. They simply will not exist anymore.

tell me something, when you are face to face with Jesus, will you still deny Him? hardly.

but, some will. some will refuse to let go of the evil parts of themselves. these will be eradicated with all evil.

None will refuse forever.

Philippians 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

God intends to reconcile 'all'

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.