Godlike Productions - Conspiracy Forum
Users Online Now: 2,523 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 109,779
Pageviews Today: 158,349Threads Today: 20Posts Today: 786
12:53 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Say a phrase, and you are saved

 
TheWiseOne
Offer Upgrade

User ID: 25619575
Bahamas
10/15/2012 12:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Say a phrase, and you are saved
I have been around many Christians, and most will say, all it takes to get saved is to say something along these lines:

"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

Then the person who makes them say this phrase, says now you are saved.

Anyone can say this phrase, (besides the cast out ones), this doesn't mean you are truly saved and are now a believer.

My question would be:
- Why do many think this is all it takes, just say a one line sentence, and now you are given access to heaven?
- Doesn't it take more (faith, works, belief) to be a true believer?
- Why isn't it explained that it takes more than a few sentences to be truly saved?

There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
TheWiseOne (OP)

User ID: 25619575
Bahamas
10/15/2012 12:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
bump
There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
oahf
User ID: 25618900
Netherlands
10/15/2012 12:47 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I want to have my own home planet system.
TheWiseOne (OP)

User ID: 25619575
Bahamas
10/15/2012 12:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I want to have my own home planet system.
 Quoting: oahf 25618900


Please don't derail this thread.hf
There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
TheWiseOne (OP)

User ID: 25619575
Bahamas
10/15/2012 12:54 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
bump
There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25618900
Netherlands
10/15/2012 12:56 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Cool if it finaly would cover the whole usa.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 2059065
United States
10/15/2012 12:59 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I have been around many Christians, and most will say, all it takes to get saved is to say something along these lines:

"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

Then the person who makes them say this phrase, says now you are saved.

Anyone can say this phrase, (besides the cast out ones), this doesn't mean you are truly saved and are now a believer.

My question would be:
- Why do many think this is all it takes, just say a one line sentence, and now you are given access to heaven?
- Doesn't it take more (faith, works, belief) to be a true believer?
- Why isn't it explained that it takes more than a few sentences to be truly saved?

 Quoting: TheWiseOne


Because Christ did all the work and all he asked is for each of us to believe.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25601325
United States
10/15/2012 01:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Exactly.

More than just being a believe, it's what you believe that counts. And how you act and make it known to the world and the universe.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25601325
United States
10/15/2012 01:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Because Christ did all the work and all he asked is for each of us to believe.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2059065


That's a trick that causes you to over look like entirely.

Live like He did.

Meaning, go through Hell and Sacrifice.

You will become Enlightened in the end. The end which is a new beginning.
Keep2theCode

User ID: 20545539
United States
10/15/2012 01:15 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Thread: Spiritual "Prepper" Instructions
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 10372663
United States
10/15/2012 01:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
You got 1 STAR for bumping your own thread the same minute you posted it!!!!!!!!!!!


WHAT A BOZO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ººEATºº

User ID: 22705817
Canada
10/15/2012 01:40 PM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I have been around many Christians, and most will say, all it takes to get saved is to say something along these lines:

"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

Then the person who makes them say this phrase, says now you are saved.

Anyone can say this phrase, (besides the cast out ones), this doesn't mean you are truly saved and are now a believer.

My question would be:
- Why do many think this is all it takes, just say a one line sentence, and now you are given access to heaven?
- Doesn't it take more (faith, works, belief) to be a true believer?
- Why isn't it explained that it takes more than a few sentences to be truly saved?

 Quoting: TheWiseOne


Our salvation does not rest on our affirmation or denial of it....

Think about it.
In the end it doesn't even matter...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25582978
United States
10/15/2012 01:42 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I have been around many Christians, and most will say, all it takes to get saved is to say something along these lines:

"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

Then the person who makes them say this phrase, says now you are saved.

Anyone can say this phrase, (besides the cast out ones), this doesn't mean you are truly saved and are now a believer.

My question would be:
- Why do many think this is all it takes, just say a one line sentence, and now you are given access to heaven?
- Doesn't it take more (faith, works, belief) to be a true believer?
- Why isn't it explained that it takes more than a few sentences to be truly saved?

 Quoting: TheWiseOne


Because the person trying to get you to say that - believes if you say it - you believe it. A lot of people say it - but don't really believe it or understand it.

You have to turn away from your sin - ie: try to stop doing what you think is sin.
Try to do what is right. Then - you are on the road to recovery.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 5051820
Sweden
10/15/2012 01:45 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Saved from what ?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25582978
United States
10/15/2012 01:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Saved from what ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5051820


H E L L !
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25575777
United States
10/15/2012 02:08 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 13:3 3 I tell you, Nay: but except yee repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Bottom line, We have chosen to walk away from God, we seek him when we need something, like; money, things in our life ain't going according to plan, your girlfriend cheats on you.
usually when we are feeling weak, vulnerable.
God loves us, and he wants all to be saved. the problem is no one reads where it says; seek me with all your heart, mind, soul. This is where true fellowship with God begins.

Luke 10:27And he answering, said, Thou shalt loue the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soule, and with all thy strength, and with all thy minde, and thy neighbour as thy selfe.
My opinion, do not allow others to interpret the Word for you, it is the "living Word of God". Gods spirit will guide your reading. so when we realize that we are sinners and truly come to God with a repentant heart, he then will send his spirit to live inside you. it is written, and then take it from their, asking the spirit to guide you in your reading.
God knows your heart, he can't be fooled, it has to be real.

John 3:16 For God so loued þe world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

yes confess this with faith.

start by reading pauls books; a great site: [link to www.kingjamesbibleonline.org]
Pauls writings- starting with romans/ending philemon
Paul is the only apostle who never saw jesus, jesus came to him in the spirit.
John 20: 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

and read King James Version year (1611)
do not be fooled with all the new, misleading versions.
grace/peace
Keep2theCode

User ID: 20545539
United States
10/15/2012 02:17 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
and read King James Version year (1611)
do not be fooled with all the new, misleading versions.
grace/peace
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25575777


Bless you for sincerity, but...

If you want to not be fooled by translations, read the Greek. In fact, I could post it and it would make about as much sense to people here as the middle English version with archaic spelling. Consider also the people for whom English is not their first language.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/15/2012 02:17 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14176179
Indonesia
10/15/2012 02:37 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Say a phrase or work out your own salvation? Which should be believed?
Keep2theCode

User ID: 20545539
United States
10/15/2012 03:00 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Say a phrase or work out your own salvation? Which should be believed?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14176179


Do you know the difference between "work out" and "work for"? The Greek word there means "to carry to a conclusion, to commit". Unless we make Paul contradict himself in Eph. 2:8-9, he is simply saying that people should live up to the full potential, the high standard, the ultimate goal of salvation, which is to transform us into the likeness of Jesus. Rebirth is the beginning, not the end.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/15/2012 03:01 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25301720
Germany
10/15/2012 03:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Fuck off.


How about that phrase.


rant
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25301720
Germany
10/15/2012 03:04 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
You, sir, are a criminal for deceiving people.


rant rant
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25596120
South Africa
10/15/2012 03:09 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I have been around many Christians, and most will say, all it takes to get saved is to say something along these lines:

"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

Then the person who makes them say this phrase, says now you are saved.

Anyone can say this phrase, (besides the cast out ones), this doesn't mean you are truly saved and are now a believer.

My question would be:
- Why do many think this is all it takes, just say a one line sentence, and now you are given access to heaven?
- Doesn't it take more (faith, works, belief) to be a true believer?
- Why isn't it explained that it takes more than a few sentences to be truly saved?

 Quoting: TheWiseOne


You are to get baptized, full body in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Confess your sins and repent.

Confess with your mouth that Jesus Died for your sins as the FINAL sacrifice, descended into the sleep of the dead and God raised Him from the dead and Ascended in Flesh into heaven, pray to be filled with the Holy Spirit and allow Him to guide you for it IS the gift Jesus left us to enable us to draw closer to Him.

Then follow His words and try to live your life as close to His, Love thy neighbour, do unto others as you want done to you, be patient in every endeavor, MOST important of all - TRUST GOD that He will provide.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 25631727
Bahamas
10/15/2012 03:16 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I have been around many Christians, and most will say, all it takes to get saved is to say something along these lines:

"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

Then the person who makes them say this phrase, says now you are saved.

Anyone can say this phrase, (besides the cast out ones), this doesn't mean you are truly saved and are now a believer.

My question would be:
- Why do many think this is all it takes, just say a one line sentence, and now you are given access to heaven?
- Doesn't it take more (faith, works, belief) to be a true believer?
- Why isn't it explained that it takes more than a few sentences to be truly saved?

 Quoting: TheWiseOne


You are to get baptized, full body in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Confess your sins and repent.

Confess with your mouth that Jesus Died for your sins as the FINAL sacrifice, descended into the sleep of the dead and God raised Him from the dead and Ascended in Flesh into heaven, pray to be filled with the Holy Spirit and allow Him to guide you for it IS the gift Jesus left us to enable us to draw closer to Him.

Then follow His words and try to live your life as close to His, Love thy neighbour, do unto others as you want done to you, be patient in every endeavor, MOST important of all - TRUST GOD that He will provide.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25596120



You don't have to confess with your mouth or be baptized to be saved.You just have to believe in Him (JOHN 3:16)and you will be saved.Are you telling me that people that can't speak cannot get saved from their sins.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17001960
United States
10/15/2012 10:48 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
It's a religion - it doesn't have to be true or make sense. Just like believing in sacrificing a virgin in a volcano to save the village from harm.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1518033
Japan
10/15/2012 10:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

The problem is that you did not consider the logical meaning of this sentence. Did Jesus die for a sin? Don't you mean Jesus died for me to wash my sins away?

Another problem is, if I'm a murderer and have caused the suffering of millions, you mean to tell me that just because I confess that Jesus is God in the flesh and died for me that I will be rewarded in Heaven for eternity why some poor slob who went out of his way to ease the pain of everyone his whole life will be punished in Hell for eternity just because he refused to bow down before Master, Lord, King Jesus?

Jesus is evil! The only way you're going to make me bow down to such an unjust god such as Jesus on Judgement Day is if you break my knee caps. And that's just what Jesus and you thugs will do. Because you are all evil slavers.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 13015812
United States
10/15/2012 10:59 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
kill them all and let God sort them out..
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 5548842
Indonesia
10/16/2012 04:37 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Say a phrase or work out your own salvation? Which should be believed?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14176179


Do you know the difference between "work out" and "work for"? The Greek word there means "to carry to a conclusion, to commit". Unless we make Paul contradict himself in Eph. 2:8-9, he is simply saying that people should live up to the full potential, the high standard, the ultimate goal of salvation, which is to transform us into the likeness of Jesus. Rebirth is the beginning, not the end.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

Actually, the Greek word translated "work out", katergazomai, can also be translated "work for". I think the translators translated it as "work out" to fit their doctrinal belief. Out of the 23 times katergazomai were used in NT, this is the only verse it was translated work out.

We could look at it as Paul contradicted himself on php 2:12 vs Eph 2:8-9 which is less likely if both were written by the same Paul. The typical approach by Christians is to hold on to one doctrinal belief and explain away all contradiction to fit in that doctrinal belief. The other possibility unthinkable by most Christians is that there were two different persons writing as Paul having different opinion about salvation. One subscribed to the save by faith only, the other subscribed to faith without work is dead (James 2:17). There are many possibilities, all based on assumption.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 5548842
Indonesia
10/16/2012 05:00 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
"I believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died for my sins, and rose again"

The problem is that you did not consider the logical meaning of this sentence. Did Jesus die for a sin? Don't you mean Jesus died for me to wash my sins away?

Another problem is, if I'm a murderer and have caused the suffering of millions, you mean to tell me that just because I confess that Jesus is God in the flesh and died for me that I will be rewarded in Heaven for eternity why some poor slob who went out of his way to ease the pain of everyone his whole life will be punished in Hell for eternity just because he refused to bow down before Master, Lord, King Jesus?

Jesus is evil! The only way you're going to make me bow down to such an unjust god such as Jesus on Judgement Day is if you break my knee caps. And that's just what Jesus and you thugs will do. Because you are all evil slavers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1518033


"Jesus is evil" might be a wrong conclusion. Most probably Jesus won't force you to bow down like those barbaric Viking slave traders, lol. It could be those who form a certain doctrine about Jesus were ignorant about the implication of their blind faith, ignorant about the hidden unfairness of their doctrine which might condemn good person not aware of Jesus into "hell" for "eternity", while asshole who confess to believe in Jesus in their death bed will enter "heaven".
Keep2theCode

User ID: 20545539
United States
10/16/2012 06:37 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Actually, the Greek word translated "work out", katergazomai, can also be translated "work for". I think the translators translated it as "work out" to fit their doctrinal belief. Out of the 23 times katergazomai were used in NT, this is the only verse it was translated work out.

We could look at it as Paul contradicted himself on php 2:12 vs Eph 2:8-9 which is less likely if both were written by the same Paul. The typical approach by Christians is to hold on to one doctrinal belief and explain away all contradiction to fit in that doctrinal belief. The other possibility unthinkable by most Christians is that there were two different persons writing as Paul having different opinion about salvation. One subscribed to the save by faith only, the other subscribed to faith without work is dead (James 2:17). There are many possibilities, all based on assumption.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5548842


Semantic range, as you know, has to bow to context. And context, if we presume Paul not to be stupid or self-contradictory, is that salvation is a gift. No gift can be earned, even in part; it can only be received. So even if you take the meaning "work for" or "earn", you now have created an even bigger problem. And there is as much reason to accuse you of wanting to "fit your doctrinal belief" as the translators.

I see that to avoid the issue of self-contradiction, you resort to questioning the authorship of the more clear "salvation by gift" passages. Are "most Christians" the ones force-fitting a belief, or is it you? What are you doing that is any different or better?

As for James, he is of course misunderstood just as Peter said Paul frequently is. James is talking about the kind of faith that results in action, the visible outworking (not "for" working) of a genuine faith. His letter is all about putting it into action and making it a practical and daily faith, rather than a mere wish or belief that is held in separation or conflict with action. He writes against hypocrisy, against the double standard that ignores the poor or lowly.

One thing those who insist upon earning their salvation never seem to address is the details: How much work? What kind? Was Jesus' blood inadequate and needs help? Aren't we then our own saviors? Can we boast before God about earning our "gift"?

Eventually you'll find that in order to avoid conflicts and contradictions, you must fragment the scriptures into more authors than there are pages in the IRS code. Where does it stop? Is the rule "If you find your theology painted into a corner, invent a new author"?

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/16/2012 06:37 AM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11305524
Indonesia
10/18/2012 09:45 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
Semantic range, as you know, has to bow to context. And context, if we presume Paul not to be stupid or self-contradictory, is that salvation is a gift. No gift can be earned, even in part; it can only be received. So even if you take the meaning "work for" or "earn", you now have created an even bigger problem. And there is as much reason to accuse you of wanting to "fit your doctrinal belief" as the translators.

I see that to avoid the issue of self-contradiction, you resort to questioning the authorship of the more clear "salvation by gift" passages. Are "most Christians" the ones force-fitting a belief, or is it you? What are you doing that is any different or better?

As for James, he is of course misunderstood just as Peter said Paul frequently is. James is talking about the kind of faith that results in action, the visible outworking (not "for" working) of a genuine faith. His letter is all about putting it into action and making it a practical and daily faith, rather than a mere wish or belief that is held in separation or conflict with action. He writes against hypocrisy, against the double standard that ignores the poor or lowly.

One thing those who insist upon earning their salvation never seem to address is the details: How much work? What kind? Was Jesus' blood inadequate and needs help? Aren't we then our own saviors? Can we boast before God about earning our "gift"?

Eventually you'll find that in order to avoid conflicts and contradictions, you must fragment the scriptures into more authors than there are pages in the IRS code. Where does it stop? Is the rule "If you find your theology painted into a corner, invent a new author"?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



I noticed there are two kinds of approach in decoding the truth of the bible or anything: (1) the reason based approach and (2) the faith based approach.

The Christian doctrine on salvation is faith based. Salvation by faith in Jesus is supposed to be believed blindly. Is it something that can be proven? No, there's no way to prove it unless those who believe can interview the Christians who've died before to hear the first hand account of what happen to the belief of salvation after passing from this world.

What am I doing that is any different or better? I am doing the reason based approach and reason can't be confined to assumption such as biblical inerrancy. I won't push my approach though and the speculation of having two different authors is not something written in stone, it is just a possible hypothesis. Is it the better approach? Well, in fact modern day Christians are using reason based approach not to do commands in barbaric verses such as Deu 13:5-10. We have read in the history of inquisition and even seen it in the radical Muslims of today, what is the result of blind belief. Blind belief in the faith based salvation may not be as harmful but if it's not the truth, it leads to no where.

Now, let me offer my reason why salvation is not by faith only, but also by work. The inescapable reality in our space time realm is, to get something, even the free thing, we've got to spend some effort. Yes salvation is a gift, anything from God is a gift, but are you sure there's no effort or work to get the gift? I would say health is a free gift too, we got minor cut, our body system heal it. But it takes some work to be healthy again after being sick. Even to maintain health needs some work.

The importance of work can be understood from James' comparison where faith without work is dead as is body without spirit (James 2:26). And the Greek word dead (nekros) was used in Jesus statement mentioning spiritual dead: "let the [spiritually] dead bury their [physically] dead." (Mt 8:22). Faith is compared to the body and work is compared to the spirit and as both body and spirit are needed to form a living man, so as both faith and work are need to be spiritually alive. So faith only without work is spiritually dead. Would being spiritually dead the state of being saved then?

Also the fact of our world is that there's an observable law of sowing and reaping. I would say, this law of sowing and reaping is a free gift from God. We can use it for the better or worse just like a knife. And sowing is work. The responsibility of us is to sow the good seed. Gal 6:8 mention about sowing to flesh and spirit. Let's say we continuously sow to flesh, will we still get the salvation? I know there's doctrine where no matter what we do we'll be saved as long as we believe. This contradicts with the law of sowing and reaping.

If we work on our own salvation, aren't we then our own saviors? No, but saving us apparently need our cooperation and work on our part. Can we boast before God about earning our "gift"? Boasting is immature and unnecessary. If the work is producing the fruits of spirit, there won't be any ego need for boasting.

Was Jesus' blood inadequate for salvation and needs help? I think there's misconception about Jesus' blood. The consensus on Jesus' blood that washed away sin was the historical blood spilled 2000+ years ago. Well, there's no way to prove that the historical blood washed sin except to just blindly believe it is so. Now the bible talked about drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Jesus, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you (Joh 6:53). Obviously, these were allegories, not the physical flesh and blood. There is a saying, we are what we eat. By eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus, we become what we eat, that is, the likeness of Jesus. What then is this flesh and blood of Jesus? Let me offer the possible interpretation. Jesus is the word of God manifested in the flesh and the word of God is about the truth. So I would suggest the flesh of Jesus refers to the truth. Regarding blood, it was said "The life of the flesh is in the blood" (Le 17:11). The blood flows to and from cells(body), so I would suggest the blood of Jesus represent the seeking and living of the truth. Now, it is the living of the truth that wash away sin (hamartia = error, missing the mark). The seeking and living of the truth is the work we should do.

To the question of what kind of work to do, it was elaborated above as eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus which allegorically means eating/absorbing the truth that we've sought and living by that truth. The seeking of truth is not easy because we've eaten or acquired a lot of assumptions through our upbringing or hasty conclusion. Part of the seeking and living out the truth is the reviewing of our assumptions and detoxification/discarding of any untrue beliefs.

How much work? As much until we enter the spiritual Sabbath where we cease from all works (Heb 4:9-11) or what you called the ultimate purpose of salvation, become the likeness of Jesus.
Keep2theCode

User ID: 20545539
United States
10/18/2012 10:15 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Say a phrase, and you are saved
I noticed there are two kinds of approach in decoding the truth of the bible or anything: (1) the reason based approach and (2) the faith based approach.

The Christian doctrine on salvation is faith based. Salvation by faith in Jesus is supposed to be believed blindly. Is it something that can be proven? No, there's no way to prove it unless those who believe can interview the Christians who've died before to hear the first hand account of what happen to the belief of salvation after passing from this world.

What am I doing that is any different or better? I am doing the reason based approach and reason can't be confined to assumption such as biblical inerrancy. I won't push my approach though and the speculation of having two different authors is not something written in stone, it is just a possible hypothesis. Is it the better approach? Well, in fact modern day Christians are using reason based approach not to do commands in barbaric verses such as Deu 13:5-10. We have read in the history of inquisition and even seen it in the radical Muslims of today, what is the result of blind belief. Blind belief in the faith based salvation may not be as harmful but if it's not the truth, it leads to no where.

Now, let me offer my reason why salvation is not by faith only, but also by work. The inescapable reality in our space time realm is, to get something, even the free thing, we've got to spend some effort. Yes salvation is a gift, anything from God is a gift, but are you sure there's no effort or work to get the gift? I would say health is a free gift too, we got minor cut, our body system heal it. But it takes some work to be healthy again after being sick. Even to maintain health needs some work.

The importance of work can be understood from James' comparison where faith without work is dead as is body without spirit (James 2:26). And the Greek word dead (nekros) was used in Jesus statement mentioning spiritual dead: "let the [spiritually] dead bury their [physically] dead." (Mt 8:22). Faith is compared to the body and work is compared to the spirit and as both body and spirit are needed to form a living man, so as both faith and work are need to be spiritually alive. So faith only without work is spiritually dead. Would being spiritually dead the state of being saved then?

Also the fact of our world is that there's an observable law of sowing and reaping. I would say, this law of sowing and reaping is a free gift from God. We can use it for the better or worse just like a knife. And sowing is work. The responsibility of us is to sow the good seed. Gal 6:8 mention about sowing to flesh and spirit. Let's say we continuously sow to flesh, will we still get the salvation? I know there's doctrine where no matter what we do we'll be saved as long as we believe. This contradicts with the law of sowing and reaping.

If we work on our own salvation, aren't we then our own saviors? No, but saving us apparently need our cooperation and work on our part. Can we boast before God about earning our "gift"? Boasting is immature and unnecessary. If the work is producing the fruits of spirit, there won't be any ego need for boasting.

Was Jesus' blood inadequate for salvation and needs help? I think there's misconception about Jesus' blood. The consensus on Jesus' blood that washed away sin was the historical blood spilled 2000+ years ago. Well, there's no way to prove that the historical blood washed sin except to just blindly believe it is so. Now the bible talked about drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Jesus, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you (Joh 6:53). Obviously, these were allegories, not the physical flesh and blood. There is a saying, we are what we eat. By eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus, we become what we eat, that is, the likeness of Jesus. What then is this flesh and blood of Jesus? Let me offer the possible interpretation. Jesus is the word of God manifested in the flesh and the word of God is about the truth. So I would suggest the flesh of Jesus refers to the truth. Regarding blood, it was said "The life of the flesh is in the blood" (Le 17:11). The blood flows to and from cells(body), so I would suggest the blood of Jesus represent the seeking and living of the truth. Now, it is the living of the truth that wash away sin (hamartia = error, missing the mark). The seeking and living of the truth is the work we should do.

To the question of what kind of work to do, it was elaborated above as eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus which allegorically means eating/absorbing the truth that we've sought and living by that truth. The seeking of truth is not easy because we've eaten or acquired a lot of assumptions through our upbringing or hasty conclusion. Part of the seeking and living out the truth is the reviewing of our assumptions and detoxification/discarding of any untrue beliefs.

How much work? As much until we enter the spiritual Sabbath where we cease from all works (Heb 4:9-11) or what you called the ultimate purpose of salvation, become the likeness of Jesus.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11305524


It is a false dilemma to say that reason and faith are opposites; I hold that they are two sides of the same coin. One without the other leads to error.

I dispute your definition of salvation by faith as "blind". We have reliable eyewitness testimony to the life, death, resurrection, and ascention of Jesus, the Gospel accounts. This is the sort of evidence used in every court of law to determine to the best of our ability the veracity of a past event. Many have sought to undermine the Christian faith by proving the Resurrection a hoax or fable, only to become believers as a result of their own research. So we see that reason is used to form the basis of faith; we really can and have interviewed those first-hand accounts. Without this evidence, this fact of history, Christianity would be just another religion.

So your claimed advantage is thus no advantage at all, no different from what I'm doing. Biblical inerrancy is not a mere hope or wish but the conclusion of much study according to many experts in all the pertinent sciences and academic disciplines.

You then attempt to redefine "gift" to mean its opposite, a wage earned. But this is one thing that truly is black or white: nothing can be sort of a gift or partially a gift; it's either free or it isn't. And the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is purely a gift. What we work for is not our spiritual birth but our subsequent growth, earning wages and rewards; this is the purpose of the Bema Seat Judgment. We know this because people are divided into saved or lost before any judgments begin.

You also attempt to redefine the meaning of savior. How can we not be our own saviors if we participate in our salvation? Jesus does not throw us a life preserver and then tell us to pull ourselves to shore, but rather only says to take hold of it so He can pull us in. Paul explicitly stated that salvation by faith alone is for the expressed purpose of removing any grounds for boasting.

You say that we have no grounds for believing that Jesus blood washed away our sin, but apparently you've never read Hebrews, esp. ch. 7 vs. 23-28--

...He is not like the former ruling priests, who had to offer up sacrifices for their own failures as well as those of the people. Instead, he did this once and for all, sacrificing himself...

You still have not given specifics about the kind or degree of "work" necessary to be saved. What exactly does it mean to "live by that truth"? Give a detailed list of necessary and non-negotiable works that will render a person lost if they fail to perform all of them perfectly.

We are already in the Sabbath Rest; see Heb. ch. 3 and 4, and a concise comment at [link to www.letusreason.org] . Those who have placed faith in Jesus alone are in it, while those who have not yet done so are not.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/18/2012 10:18 AM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)

News