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JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth

 
jdb

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10/15/2012 08:25 PM

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JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
Thank you for checking out this thread and please forgive the initial "wall of text"!

This thread is the result of my invitation to, what appears to me, to be a JW apologist i met on DGN's thread:

"Re: Are God's people organized or scattered and confused?'

Initially I had asked DGN the following question:

"DGN, could you please show us where Scripture teaches us that Jesus is the Archangel Michael?"

DGN did not reply, however what appears to me to be a JW apologist did answer. I asked this person (Anonymous Coward 10858311) to join me in a public debate regarding our doctrinal differences...to wit: this ac accepted my offer!

My hope is to employ a spirited but certainly *respectful* exchange. PLEASE, all, if any, who would like to join the exchange are more then welcome to share your facts and opinons...but PLEASE, may I ask that courtesy and respect be used by all at all times...just because we have differences does not mean that we can't employ a gracious and considerate attitude to one another.

Ok, well start with our last exchange on DGN's thread:
__________________

ac - please answer this reply:

"we are explicitly told in Hebrews 2:5 that the world is not (and will not be) in subjection to an angel. .... Christ the glorified God-man will reign supreme (Revelation 19:16). Now, if no angel can rule the world (Hebrews 2:5), then Christ cannot be the archangel Michael, since Scripture repeatedly says Christ is to be the ruler of God's kingdom ..."

Quoting: jdb

I've seen Michael the Archangel brought up before, always with the same hint of 'taunting', yet never once felt moved to do research about Michael the Archangel. It's obvious there's not going to be much we're going to be able to find out about him, isn't it? Look what any of the scanty Bible mention of angels has given rise to in the way of fanciful portrayals in art, etc. Because we know so little about angels, many feel a need or at least feel free to lavish them with imaginary details. Why don't you take on that phenomenon about which to straighten the record? Is it because you wouldn't want to offend anybody or mess with their fond delusions unless they were a Jehovah's Witness?
So if we're going to "debate" this, i'm going to feel free to take all the time I need to research or whatever. You sound like you think you have the smoking-gun-issue of your Watchtower -hating dreams, And besides probably only have to cut and paste stuff you've already posted before.
It seems like kind of a straw-man issue. On one side we have the implication that the whole wt theology is based on M. the A. and will come crashing down with the removal of that 'linchpin'. On the other hand, there's the implication that anyone else out there actually gives a rip whether someone is 'in error' over the 'famous', and 'pivotal' Hebrews 2:5.

Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

Thank you for your reply ac and I understand your terms - for now I will start a new thread and copy and paste the aforementioned questions and then begin with an answer to this reply.

Thank you very much for committing your time and effort to our search for Truth!

_______________________ Begin

Again, Thank You ac for your reply and thank you for committing your time and effort to our mutual search for The Truth!
I would like to note right up front, that I am committed to communicating with you and everyone else, with a spirit of respect and humility. I believe with all of my heart that pride is the worst thing that can happen to a person! I will guard against such, but if you ever receive anything I say as arrogant, please try to give me the benefit of the doubt…but also, please do bring it to my attention and I will do my best to change my tone or approach!
As for taunting you...NO! I did not nor will not deliberately taunt you for any reason!
As for researching Michael the Archangel…I agree, since Michael is only mentioned a handful of times…there’s not a lot of research we can do on him, however, this begins to highlight my contention, that perhaps the watchtower, in light of what little information there is about him in The Bible, has made him out to be more than he is…an Archangel! Nevertheless, you move on from your mention of Michael to pointing out fanciful portrayals of angels (rightly so) and noting that:
“many feel a need or at least feel free to lavish them with imaginary details.”
I contend (respectfully) that this is exactly what the watchtower has already done with Michael by turning him into Jesus!
Again with respect, I don’t think our current point of contention requires us to take on the imaginary details of the angels proper! I do, as it relates to my efforts to please The Most High God in pursuing holiness and righteousness worry about offending people, whether they are JW’s or anyone else…saved or not! I try but know that I do fail…but I won’t stay there…I will confess, ask forgiveness and move on!
I understand that you may require time to research your answers…as I am sure I will as well! Can we agree that after we take time to research questions that we “ping” each other with a message so we know the other has responded?
Your comment: “[that] I think I have the smoking gun issue of my watchtower-hating dreams…” is a bit unfair – if I didn’t care for you or any reading this thread, I wouldn’t bother!
As for cutting and pasting…YES…why not? It seems the presupposition is that because I cut and paste passages or answers from text somehow voids an answer doesn’t make any sense to me! The words are the words…as well as a huge time saver!
There is no “straw man” argument taking place on my part! Nevertheless, the issue of Jesus and Michael the Archangel *is* an enormous as it relates to the watchtower *and* as it relates to all JW’s, because my contention is that unless one acknowledges and receives Jesus for Who He said He Was/Is – salvation cannot be ascertained! So…it is the “linchpin?” I don’t know…but I do believe that the truth of that one particular issue in and of itself could devastate membership of the watchtower…so yes, it is a very important issue!
Regarding Hebrews 2:5 and whether anyone could “give a rip”…I (respectfully) think is very telling! The Word tells us in Hebrews 2:5
“For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.”
And then as it rests next to Rev 19:16
“On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”
Makes it clear that Jesus will Reign! Angel(s) will *not*!
I think we both must agree that the Ultimate and Final Standard to which we much measure our answers to, is The Word of God! Yes?

Last Edited by jdb on 10/15/2012 08:39 PM
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Anonymous Coward
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10/15/2012 08:30 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
One star and bsflag
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 08:35 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
One star and bsflag
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1011258


Why BS?
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 08:44 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
Trying to keep this thread on the front page while (not a knock) waiting for JW ac to respond
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Anonymous Coward
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10/15/2012 08:45 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
every different splinter group of christians has its own set of rules , and most are only valid internally.

the 'truth' is at the bottom of a bottomless pit, if it was accessible, christianity, would suffer a much faster decline than it is currently doing.(current world average near %5 per year)

all the three major monotheiastic religions have enforced their propaganda to hold onto power.

they all make up their own truth, and watching them flail about while doing so is resulting in their numbers shrinking wherever they cannot punish those who know they speak nonsense.
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 08:52 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
every different splinter group of christians has its own set of rules , and most are only valid internally.

the 'truth' is at the bottom of a bottomless pit, if it was accessible, christianity, would suffer a much faster decline than it is currently doing.(current world average near %5 per year)

all the three major monotheiastic religions have enforced their propaganda to hold onto power.

they all make up their own truth, and watching them flail about while doing so is resulting in their numbers shrinking wherever they cannot punish those who know they speak nonsense.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13226625


Part of the point is that "Religion(s)" is/are worse than we can fathom!

“Religion” is man’s attempt to reach and appease God!

Man cannot do that!

The best we can do is accept the fact that God already did the Work for us!

It’s *not* about religion…it’s about a relationship with Him!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 09:03 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
Still trying to stay on front page until ac replys
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 09:14 PM

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still waiting
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Keep2theCode

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10/15/2012 09:22 PM
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still waiting
 Quoting: jdb


Too bad you can't tell if an AC is online, or what timezone they're in. If they do respond you might want to set up some kind of window in which either of you has to respond or they forfeit. Though of course, GLP isn't exactly an ideal debate environment... well nigh impossible IMHO.

I got into the whole "Michael" thing last year in the blog of someone who supposedly was Southern Baptist and highly regarded as a pastor. He started teaching that "Michael is Jesus" and just kept repeating the same few JW talking points, as if he was one. Bizarre.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 09:33 PM

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still waiting
 Quoting: jdb


Too bad you can't tell if an AC is online, or what timezone they're in. If they do respond you might want to set up some kind of window in which either of you has to respond or they forfeit. Though of course, GLP isn't exactly an ideal debate environment... well nigh impossible IMHO.

I got into the whole "Michael" thing last year in the blog of someone who supposedly was Southern Baptist and highly regarded as a pastor. He started teaching that "Michael is Jesus" and just kept repeating the same few JW talking points, as if he was one. Bizarre.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Thank you brother!

I *totally* get that glp is a harder environment for this kind of thing...but I have a hard time *not* standing up or defending The Faith when JW's are roaming and pitching their doctrine!

I noted that we should "ping" each other via glp message when we post our replies...and I did that - only problem is that this guy is an ac that's connected to DGN - so I had to try to ping him through DGN! The ac accepted my invitation to debate but I may have to wait awhile to hear from him! The most important thing for me is that JW doctrine not be allowed to go unchallenged!

Yeah...the Michael / Jesus deal is flat out heresy!

Thanks for checking in brother!

Pray!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Keep2theCode

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10/15/2012 09:41 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
still waiting
 Quoting: jdb


Too bad you can't tell if an AC is online, or what timezone they're in. If they do respond you might want to set up some kind of window in which either of you has to respond or they forfeit. Though of course, GLP isn't exactly an ideal debate environment... well nigh impossible IMHO.

I got into the whole "Michael" thing last year in the blog of someone who supposedly was Southern Baptist and highly regarded as a pastor. He started teaching that "Michael is Jesus" and just kept repeating the same few JW talking points, as if he was one. Bizarre.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Thank you brother!

I *totally* get that glp is a harder environment for this kind of thing...but I have a hard time *not* standing up or defending The Faith when JW's are roaming and pitching their doctrine!

I noted that we should "ping" each other via glp message when we post our replies...and I did that - only problem is that this guy is an ac that's connected to DGN - so I had to try to ping him through DGN! The ac accepted my invitation to debate but I may have to wait awhile to hear from him! The most important thing for me is that JW doctrine not be allowed to go unchallenged!

Yeah...the Michael / Jesus deal is flat out heresy!

Thanks for checking in brother!

Pray!
 Quoting: jdb

Will do!

And I totally understand the need to speak up for the truth. At the same time, we know that it's the soil, not the seed, that will determine whether we ever see positive results. It's a thankless job most of the time.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 09:44 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
still waiting
 Quoting: jdb


Too bad you can't tell if an AC is online, or what timezone they're in. If they do respond you might want to set up some kind of window in which either of you has to respond or they forfeit. Though of course, GLP isn't exactly an ideal debate environment... well nigh impossible IMHO.

I got into the whole "Michael" thing last year in the blog of someone who supposedly was Southern Baptist and highly regarded as a pastor. He started teaching that "Michael is Jesus" and just kept repeating the same few JW talking points, as if he was one. Bizarre.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Thank you brother!

I *totally* get that glp is a harder environment for this kind of thing...but I have a hard time *not* standing up or defending The Faith when JW's are roaming and pitching their doctrine!

I noted that we should "ping" each other via glp message when we post our replies...and I did that - only problem is that this guy is an ac that's connected to DGN - so I had to try to ping him through DGN! The ac accepted my invitation to debate but I may have to wait awhile to hear from him! The most important thing for me is that JW doctrine not be allowed to go unchallenged!

Yeah...the Michael / Jesus deal is flat out heresy!

Thanks for checking in brother!

Pray!
 Quoting: jdb

Will do!

And I totally understand the need to speak up for the truth. At the same time, we know that it's the soil, not the seed, that will determine whether we ever see positive results. It's a thankless job most of the time.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Amen - I totally understand and receive it!

Thank you
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 09:59 PM

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Waiting for ac's reply
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Anonymous Coward
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10/15/2012 10:09 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
When I suggested you would cut and paste,it wasn't because I remember reading whatever you've c. and p.'ed before on this subject. [That's obviously what I should have been doing all day instead of everything but!] I just thought I'd seen you or someone asking this same question over and over on DGN's threads, so I imagined you must have a prepared work-up of your 'case'. So that would put me at a disadvantage if I answered you right away.
I still feel it is a relatively insignificant matter. What do most people really know about the subject?
most ppl probably think they have some feel for the idea of 'angel' and parameters thereunto, and might as a result, be too inclined to dismiss as 'shocking'anything not readily conforming to childhood ideas.
But I think if they were to really analyze the source of their ideas it would turn out to be popular misconceptions based on syrupy stories,TV, and visual misrepresentations. And I think the aforesaid ideas have arisen to fill a vacuum of information in the Bible about angels.
ppl's wrong ideas can be skillfully exploited by someone with a bad motive.. Look at the mob rule that was a factor in Jesus' murder.
When I say vacuum of info in Bible, above though, I may be talking about a misconception on my part to a certain extent, and any one of you reading this may be better informed than I am about extent of angel info in Bible and what the info is.
I'm going to post this because I think we're on different schedules and I did feel bad about maybe keeping you up late waiting for me to reply last night, when you reported you had to go to work this morning.
I hate writing. It's so hard. I've gone on and on and barely said a thing yet. Sorry. It's not deliberate,I promise. I'll throw in something I did reply last night, that I think is pertinent. :Angels are not immortal. Jesus was given immortality when he was resurrected to life in heaven to sit at the right hand of God. this is one of several changes in his status at this juncture, mentioned in the Bible. I'll post this, and hopefully write some more tonight too. love, AC
Anonymous Coward
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10/15/2012 10:13 PM
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AND I don't know how to ping. can some one tell me?
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 10:18 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
When I suggested you would cut and paste,it wasn't because I remember reading whatever you've c. and p.'ed before on this subject. [That's obviously what I should have been doing all day instead of everything but!] I just thought I'd seen you or someone asking this same question over and over on DGN's threads, so I imagined you must have a prepared work-up of your 'case'. So that would put me at a disadvantage if I answered you right away.
I still feel it is a relatively insignificant matter. What do most people really know about the subject?
most ppl probably think they have some feel for the idea of 'angel' and parameters thereunto, and might as a result, be too inclined to dismiss as 'shocking'anything not readily conforming to childhood ideas.
But I think if they were to really analyze the source of their ideas it would turn out to be popular misconceptions based on syrupy stories,TV, and visual misrepresentations. And I think the aforesaid ideas have arisen to fill a vacuum of information in the Bible about angels.
ppl's wrong ideas can be skillfully exploited by someone with a bad motive.. Look at the mob rule that was a factor in Jesus' murder.
When I say vacuum of info in Bible, above though, I may be talking about a misconception on my part to a certain extent, and any one of you reading this may be better informed than I am about extent of angel info in Bible and what the info is.
I'm going to post this because I think we're on different schedules and I did feel bad about maybe keeping you up late waiting for me to reply last night, when you reported you had to go to work this morning.
I hate writing. It's so hard. I've gone on and on and barely said a thing yet. Sorry. It's not deliberate,I promise. I'll throw in something I did reply last night, that I think is pertinent. :Angels are not immortal. Jesus was given immortality when he was resurrected to life in heaven to sit at the right hand of God. this is one of several changes in his status at this juncture, mentioned in the Bible. I'll post this, and hopefully write some more tonight too. love, AC
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Thank you ac!

Perhaps we can "ping" each other via email if you allow yourself to be comfortable with that idea! I've already given DGN my email address because I believed (and still do) that JW's tend to hold integrity on matters like these, therefore I wasn't worried about the possibility that DGN would plant my email address somewhere I would not! I extend the same courtesy to you...that I will not, *in any way* abuse your email address! If so, please have DGN message me with your address here! I will forward my email address to DGN now in case he threw it away when I sent it to him last time!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 10:25 PM

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Oh - "ping" is just reaching out one way or another...as in email or calling someone or texting etc
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 10858311
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10/15/2012 10:32 PM
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When I suggested you would cut and paste,it wasn't because I remember reading whatever you've c. and p.'ed before on this subject. [That's obviously what I should have been doing all day instead of everything but!] I just thought I'd seen you or someone asking this same question over and over on DGN's threads, so I imagined you must have a prepared work-up of your 'case'. So that would put me at a disadvantage if I answered you right away.
I still feel it is a relatively insignificant matter. What do most people really know about the subject?
most ppl probably think they have some feel for the idea of 'angel' and parameters thereunto, and might as a result, be too inclined to dismiss as 'shocking'anything not readily conforming to childhood ideas.
But I think if they were to really analyze the source of their ideas it would turn out to be popular misconceptions based on syrupy stories,TV, and visual misrepresentations. And I think the aforesaid ideas have arisen to fill a vacuum of information in the Bible about angels.
ppl's wrong ideas can be skillfully exploited by someone with a bad motive.. Look at the mob rule that was a factor in Jesus' murder.
When I say vacuum of info in Bible, above though, I may be talking about a misconception on my part to a certain extent, and any one of you reading this may be better informed than I am about extent of angel info in Bible and what the info is.
I'm going to post this because I think we're on different schedules and I did feel bad about maybe keeping you up late waiting for me to reply last night, when you reported you had to go to work this morning.
I hate writing. It's so hard. I've gone on and on and barely said a thing yet. Sorry. It's not deliberate,I promise. I'll throw in something I did reply last night, that I think is pertinent. :Angels are not immortal. Jesus was given immortality when he was resurrected to life in heaven to sit at the right hand of God. this is one of several changes in his status at this juncture, mentioned in the Bible. I'll post this, and hopefully write some more tonight too. love, AC
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Thank you ac!

Perhaps we can "ping" each other via email if you allow yourself to be comfortable with that idea! I've already given DGN my email address because I believed (and still do) that JW's tend to hold integrity on matters like these, therefore I wasn't worried about the possibility that DGN would plant my email address somewhere I would not! I extend the same courtesy to you...that I will not, *in any way* abuse your email address! If so, please have DGN message me with your address here! I will forward my email address to DGN now in case he threw it away when I sent it to him last time!
 Quoting: jdb

I actually e-mailed DGN for the first time today,using that address on his website, that he links to on here? I apologized for being rude and sarcastic on his thread and said I saw red seeing him attacked. Obviously we ,you ,we all aspire not to act that way. DGN and I don't know each other with the exception of me having messed up another one of his threads and apologizing publicly that time. I haven't heard back and don't know if he got it,but he does have my e-mail address from that. I do haunt this place a lot more than I check my e-mail though.
Anonymous Coward
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10/15/2012 10:42 PM
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Oh - "ping" is just reaching out one way or another...as in email or calling someone or texting etc
 Quoting: jdb


thank you. I do oscillate between 'egg-noramus' and 'just plain dumb' on those I.Q. testing devices at Cracker Barrel.
jdb (OP)

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10/15/2012 10:54 PM

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When I suggested you would cut and paste,it wasn't because I remember reading whatever you've c. and p.'ed before on this subject. [That's obviously what I should have been doing all day instead of everything but!] I just thought I'd seen you or someone asking this same question over and over on DGN's threads, so I imagined you must have a prepared work-up of your 'case'. So that would put me at a disadvantage if I answered you right away.
I still feel it is a relatively insignificant matter. What do most people really know about the subject?
most ppl probably think they have some feel for the idea of 'angel' and parameters thereunto, and might as a result, be too inclined to dismiss as 'shocking'anything not readily conforming to childhood ideas.
But I think if they were to really analyze the source of their ideas it would turn out to be popular misconceptions based on syrupy stories,TV, and visual misrepresentations. And I think the aforesaid ideas have arisen to fill a vacuum of information in the Bible about angels.
ppl's wrong ideas can be skillfully exploited by someone with a bad motive.. Look at the mob rule that was a factor in Jesus' murder.
When I say vacuum of info in Bible, above though, I may be talking about a misconception on my part to a certain extent, and any one of you reading this may be better informed than I am about extent of angel info in Bible and what the info is.
I'm going to post this because I think we're on different schedules and I did feel bad about maybe keeping you up late waiting for me to reply last night, when you reported you had to go to work this morning.
I hate writing. It's so hard. I've gone on and on and barely said a thing yet. Sorry. It's not deliberate,I promise. I'll throw in something I did reply last night, that I think is pertinent. :Angels are not immortal. Jesus was given immortality when he was resurrected to life in heaven to sit at the right hand of God. this is one of several changes in his status at this juncture, mentioned in the Bible. I'll post this, and hopefully write some more tonight too. love, AC
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Thank you ac!

Perhaps we can "ping" each other via email if you allow yourself to be comfortable with that idea! I've already given DGN my email address because I believed (and still do) that JW's tend to hold integrity on matters like these, therefore I wasn't worried about the possibility that DGN would plant my email address somewhere I would not! I extend the same courtesy to you...that I will not, *in any way* abuse your email address! If so, please have DGN message me with your address here! I will forward my email address to DGN now in case he threw it away when I sent it to him last time!
 Quoting: jdb

I actually e-mailed DGN for the first time today,using that address on his website, that he links to on here? I apologized for being rude and sarcastic on his thread and said I saw red seeing him attacked. Obviously we ,you ,we all aspire not to act that way. DGN and I don't know each other with the exception of me having messed up another one of his threads and apologizing publicly that time. I haven't heard back and don't know if he got it,but he does have my e-mail address from that. I do haunt this place a lot more than I check my e-mail though.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


I completely understand that! DGN will probably tell you (and the record will show) that in past arguments I *never* attacked him but only challenged his (presumably yours as well) position doctrinally speaking!

I know you understand this because of the work you do as a JW...that Truth is Truth - plain and simple! I know you believe with all of your heart that the doctrine set forth by the watchtower is the truth! And of course I as well believe the doctrine I follow is the truth…and I don’t mean in any way to insult your intelligence when I point out that there cannot be two *absolute* truths. So, the both of us *can* search this issue out *if we choose to do so*. This cannot be about anything other than The Truth – if Holy Scripture bears out that the watchtower holds The Truth, I *must* leave my old theology behind and embrace the doctrine set forth by the watchtower…conversely, if I am preaching The Truth, then the same must hold true for you…yes? Anything less on our part lacks integrity and thus cannot be trusted for salvation…yes?
I am truly grateful for your checking in tonight ac and do look forward to your reply! Respectfully, I am getting to the point where I need to hit the rack (I am in CST) because I’ve got to get an early start…which is usually every morning because I am in construction.
Again – DGN has my email address – will wait for a “ping” from him regarding yours.

One last thing before I sign off for the night, what time zone are you in?

Peace
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Anonymous Coward
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10/15/2012 11:17 PM
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Eastern. sweet dreams...
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 12:25 AM
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i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man. The Son of God can manifest himself in different ways to his created beings. Are we to believe that humans fall and He becomes a human to save them, yet angels falls and he didnt do anything for them. he loves all equally and we have yet to find out what the Son of God did for the Angels. One can say if you worship Jesus u worship a human just like one can say if u worship Michael you worship an angel but I think neither is the case. If someone believes that Michael is non other than Jesus the Son of God than i see nonthing wrong with that but if they think michael is a created angel then thats wrong. Jesus, before he was born here, was known by many different names and titles but it is clear we are to call upon his new name "jesus", so i do have a problem if someone calls him by the other names when its clear it should be Jesus. I dont have a problem if someone says one of his past names was micheal and he as an arch angel...which really doesnt imply he was an angel(created being type) since the meaning is "chief of the angels". for instance, an archbishop is not a bishop but is the leader of the bishops.

one also has to realise that angel has many different meanings. it can mean the created beings that God made before humans. it can mean, men, that are messengers of God. and it can in some instances be used to describe the Lord God.

For instance:
In the book of Genesis, the angel of the Lord found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel?

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God." This is not to suggest that God is a created being, but rather that the word "angel" or messenger is sometimes used to refer to Deity.

When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him (Genesis 22:11, 15). Who was this angel?

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

When Moses saw the burning bush, "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:6)

In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. (Acts 7:37, 38) The name "Michael" means Who is like God? The activities of Michael could not be performed by a created being, but only by the power of divinity.

Whose Voice Raises the Dead?

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. "Whose voice is it?" "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (John 5:25)

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (John 5:28)

Paul says that it is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. John says that it is the voice of the Son of God. No creature has the power over death. Only Jesus has that power.

"And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:17, 18)


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

It was no mere angel that cast Satan out of heaven! He was cast out by the "power of his Christ."

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10)


what is my personal belief? well, i think michael is how the Son of God showed himself to angels just like Jesus is how he was among us. Same person, different name and different role. He is not a created being. one day when we get to heaven im sure we will here the story of the great sacrifices God did for the angels like he did for us humans. for now, that is not important but only to accept Jesus as our savior and follow in his ways.

Revelation 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 03:00 AM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man. The Son of God can manifest himself in different ways to his created beings. Are we to believe that humans fall and He becomes a human to save them, yet angels falls and he didnt do anything for them. he loves all equally and we have yet to find out what the Son of God did for the Angels. One can say if you worship Jesus u worship a human just like one can say if u worship Michael you worship an angel but I think neither is the case. If someone believes that Michael is non other than Jesus the Son of God than i see nonthing wrong with that but if they think michael is a created angel then thats wrong. Jesus, before he was born here, was known by many different names and titles but it is clear we are to call upon his new name "jesus", so i do have a problem if someone calls him by the other names when its clear it should be Jesus. I dont have a problem if someone says one of his past names was micheal and he as an arch angel...which really doesnt imply he was an angel(created being type) since the meaning is "chief of the angels". for instance, an archbishop is not a bishop but is the leader of the bishops.

one also has to realise that angel has many different meanings. it can mean the created beings that God made before humans. it can mean, men, that are messengers of God. and it can in some instances be used to describe the Lord God.

For instance:
In the book of Genesis, the angel of the Lord found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel?

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God." This is not to suggest that God is a created being, but rather that the word "angel" or messenger is sometimes used to refer to Deity.

When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him (Genesis 22:11, 15). Who was this angel?

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

When Moses saw the burning bush, "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:6)

In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. (Acts 7:37, 38) The name "Michael" means Who is like God? The activities of Michael could not be performed by a created being, but only by the power of divinity.

Whose Voice Raises the Dead?

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. "Whose voice is it?" "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (John 5:25)

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (John 5:28)

Paul says that it is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. John says that it is the voice of the Son of God. No creature has the power over death. Only Jesus has that power.

"And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:17, 18)


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

It was no mere angel that cast Satan out of heaven! He was cast out by the "power of his Christ."

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10)


what is my personal belief? well, i think michael is how the Son of God showed himself to angels just like Jesus is how he was among us. Same person, different name and different role. He is not a created being. one day when we get to heaven im sure we will here the story of the great sacrifices God did for the angels like he did for us humans. for now, that is not important but only to accept Jesus as our savior and follow in his ways.

Revelation 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19256665


Whoa!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As I mentioned above:
"When I say vacuum of info in Bible, above though, I may be talking about a misconception on my part to a certain extent, and any one of you reading this may be better informed than I am about extent of angel info in Bible and what the info is. "
Lisa*Lisa

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10/16/2012 07:33 AM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
JW's are right on somethings and wrong on others. They are right that they get into the Bible and actually teach their members, where churches don't anymore. I never learned anything sitting in a church pew. I learned alot as a JW for 7 years.

But, Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Trinity is true, our soul does live on after the body dies, the whole 1914 thing is ridiculous, and they are not the only ones who are Gods people.

Those reasons, among other things, is why I left the group.

However, I do consider them christians, even tho they do not consider me a christian.

hf
Have You Accepted Jesus As Your Savior Yet? What Are You Waiting For? Do you have questions about God or need someone to talk to? Email me at Lisalovesjesus7@gmail.com

____________________________


"Te​ll them, I love them" - Jesus Christ

"If love were a tree, compassion would be its fruit." - unknown
____________________________

A dear friend's website [link to www.savemenowjesus.com]

_____________________________

2 Corinthians 12:9 - "Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness." So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me."
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 10:39 AM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
still waiting
 Quoting: jdb


Too bad you can't tell if an AC is online, or what timezone they're in. If they do respond you might want to set up some kind of window in which either of you has to respond or they forfeit. Though of course, GLP isn't exactly an ideal debate environment... well nigh impossible IMHO.

I got into the whole "Michael" thing last year in the blog of someone who supposedly was Southern Baptist and highly regarded as a pastor. He started teaching that "Michael is Jesus" and just kept repeating the same few JW talking points, as if he was one. Bizarre.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Thank you brother!

I *totally* get that glp is a harder environment for this kind of thing...but I have a hard time *not* standing up or defending The Faith when JW's are roaming and pitching their doctrine!

I noted that we should "ping" each other via glp message when we post our replies...and I did that - only problem is that this guy is an ac that's connected to DGN - so I had to try to ping him through DGN! The ac accepted my invitation to debate but I may have to wait awhile to hear from him! The most important thing for me is that JW doctrine not be allowed to go unchallenged!

Yeah...the Michael / Jesus deal is flat out heresy!

Thanks for checking in brother!

Pray!
 Quoting: jdb


Both me and keep2thecode are 'girls' BTW.
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 10:41 AM
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Both me and keep2thecode are 'girls' BTW.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Shhhhh! You get more respect when they think you're a guy. cheers
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 10:56 AM
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Both me and keep2thecode are 'girls' BTW.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Shhhhh! You get more respect when they think you're a guy. cheers
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


don't tempt me to get into the beer now. I just woke up!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 19011211
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10/16/2012 11:59 AM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
JW's are right on somethings and wrong on others. They are right that they get into the Bible and actually teach their members, where churches don't anymore. I never learned anything sitting in a church pew. I learned alot as a JW for 7 years.

But, Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Trinity is true, our soul does live on after the body dies, the whole 1914 thing is ridiculous, and they are not the only ones who are Gods people.

Those reasons, among other things, is why I left the group.

However, I do consider them christians, even tho they do not consider me a christian.

hf
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


how could one who denys the deity of of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be considered a christian?

In John 8:24 Jesus declared: “For if you should not believe that I am [ego eimi] you will perish in your sins” (lit. trans.).
[link to christiandefense.org]

articles on JW's
[link to christiandefense.org]
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 12:19 PM
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how could one who denys the deity of of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be considered a christian?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19011211


The definition of "Christian" is something most people want to make up these days. If we say we get ours from the Bible, they point to all the disagreements over interpretation as evidence that nothing at all can be proved from the Bible. Yet if that were true, then why would anyone care what they called their beliefs? If the whole Bible is disputable, then what's the point? But the disagreements often stem from logical errors, incomplete knowledge of the original language, or careless reading. Of the disputes that can legitimately be taken from the Bible, none are over the very essential teaching that Jesus is God incarnate who rose from the dead, and that He is the only Way, Truth, and Life. If not even this teaching can be accepted, then IMHO such a person or group has no right to claim the name of Christ.

John said that "Whoever has the Son has the Father as well, but whoever does not have the Son does not have the Father either" (1 John 2:21-25). Since JWs do not have the Son per the definition in the scriptures, they do not have the Father either. For this reason, even the Jews had to accept Jesus to be saved.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", "I AM", and was crucified ultimately because of blasphemy; his enemies understood him to equate himself with God. See also [link to www.fether.net]
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 01:45 PM
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every different splinter group of christians has its own set of rules , and most are only valid internally.

the 'truth' is at the bottom of a bottomless pit, if it was accessible, christianity, would suffer a much faster decline than it is currently doing.(current world average near %5 per year)

all the three major monotheiastic religions have enforced their propaganda to hold onto power.

they all make up their own truth, and watching them flail about while doing so is resulting in their numbers shrinking wherever they cannot punish those who know they speak nonsense.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 13226625


Not only "the 3":

Confessing Their Bloodguilt

“We called the war [World War II] a holy war and sent people to battlefields,” admitted Shingen Hosokawa, the secretary-general of the Temple Office of the Buddhist True Pure Land Otani Sect in Japan. “We cannot but be overwhelmed with shame in front of the holy Buddha.” At a recent “Memorial Service for All War Dead,” 45 years after the end of World War II, the sect, with over five million believers, admitted its responsibility in “willingly cooperating in [the war efforts of] World War II.” “There is no precedent for a traditional Buddhist order clearly to state its own war responsibility at a religious ritual,” noted the Asahi Shimbun.

However, should not far more religions be “overwhelmed with shame” for having urged many young men to go to war? According to the Kodansha Encyclopedia of Japan, virtually all Buddhist, “Christian,” and Shinto denominations in Japan formed a Religious League in 1941 “to provide a spiritual bulwark for the nation in wartime.”
Not surprisingly, referring to the world empire of false religion as “Babylon the Great,” the Bible says: “Yes, in her was found the blood . . . of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.” (Revelation 18:2, 24)
Will Jehovah God, the Giver of human life, call those religionists to account for their bloodguilt? The same chapter of Revelation graphically describes what will happen to Babylon the Great, stating: “A strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: ‘Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.’”—Revelation 18:21.

Lack of Priests

Buddhist sects in Japan are haunted by the problem of abandoned temples. Neighbors of temples without resident priests are objecting to vagrants’ loitering in the temple area as well as to the danger of fire erupting. The Zen Buddhist Myoshinji sect decided to handle the problem by either disposing of temples or merging them with those nearby. More than 20 percent of the Myoshinji sect’s 3,500 temples throughout Japan either do not have a resident priest or are served by priests from nearby temples.
Why the plight? “The sect is having difficulty finding successors to retiring priests,” explains The Daily Yomiuri, “and young priests have resisted postings to temples in depopulated areas.” The sect tried to train retired workers as priests but has already abandoned the scheme. Although the Myoshinji say that “this is not an age when the number of temples in existence is proof of strength,” it is undeniable that their influence is waning.
Interestingly, the Bible book of Revelation foretells that the waters of the Euphrates, on which the worldwide religious system—“Babylon the Great”—is seated, will ‘dry up.’ (Revelation 16:12; 18:2, 9, 11) What do the waters represent? “The waters that you saw . . . mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” (Revelation 17:15) A drying up of “the waters,” or supporters, is clearly taking place in the Oriental realm of Babylon the Great.

The Perfect Solution
“The looming threats we now face . . . have so much momentum that unless action begins now to reverse them, they will inevitably lead to paralyzingly costly economic consequences and the collapse of social and political institutions,” states Worldwatch Institute, based in Washington, D.C., U.S.A. Last year the institute’s annual report warned that death-dealing heat waves, droughts, and floods were merely a foretaste of the more serious calamities yet to befall the already battered earth. Areas targeted in the report for immediate attention include population control, energy efficiency, reforestation, and famine prevention. However, the institute says that an immediate ‘global plan of action’ and ‘profound changes in man’s behavior pattern’ are needed to obtain positive results.

Can we expect to see a global plan that will bring profound changes in our time? Yes, but not through the efforts of any man or group of men. Why not? Because the prophet Jeremiah wrote centuries ago: “To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” Rather, the Bible promises that Jehovah God will “bring to ruin those ruining the earth” and will “set matters straight” to benefit earth’s inhabitants.—Jeremiah 10:23; Revelation 11:18; Micah 4:3, 4.

Incidentally the number of Jehovah's Witnesses is not in decline. They are growing rapidly.
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 02:10 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
how could one who denys the deity of of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be considered a christian?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19011211


The definition of "Christian" is something most people want to make up these days. If we say we get ours from the Bible, they point to all the disagreements over interpretation as evidence that nothing at all can be proved from the Bible. Yet if that were true, then why would anyone care what they called their beliefs? If the whole Bible is disputable, then what's the point? But the disagreements often stem from logical errors, incomplete knowledge of the original language, or careless reading. Of the disputes that can legitimately be taken from the Bible, none are over the very essential teaching that Jesus is God incarnate who rose from the dead, and that He is the only Way, Truth, and Life. If not even this teaching can be accepted, then IMHO such a person or group has no right to claim the name of Christ.

John said that "Whoever has the Son has the Father as well, but whoever does not have the Son does not have the Father either" (1 John 2:21-25). Since JWs do not have the Son per the definition in the scriptures, they do not have the Father either. For this reason, even the Jews had to accept Jesus to be saved.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", "I AM", and was crucified ultimately because of blasphemy; his enemies understood him to equate himself with God. See also [link to www.fether.net]
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."

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