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JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth

 
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 02:15 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Yes, Jesus is both God and man, the ideal mediator between God and mankind. We take all the scriptures together to come to this conclusion.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 02:35 PM
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On the subject of "debate":

The three so-called comforters debate at length with Job (4:1–31:40)
They contend that he is suffering because of his sins, arguing that Job must be in the wrong since God is treating him as an enemy
They try to persuade Job of this by resorting to false reasoning and slander and by appealing to tradition and visions they claim to have seen
The three companions urge Job to confess his wrongdoing and change his ways; then, they say, he will regain his former prosperity
Job insists that he is upright; he does not understand why Jehovah allows him to suffer, but he silences the false counsel of his three companions
In his final words, Job contrasts his former days as a respected elder with his present period of affliction and humiliation; he points out how careful he has been to avoid sin

Elihu, a young bystander, corrects Job and his companions [the debaters] (32:1–37:24)
He shows that Job was in the wrong when he justified himself rather than God, and he upbraids Job’s three companions for failing to answer Job correctly
Elihu upholds Jehovah’s justice, impartiality, glory, and almightiness


(Elihu) [My God Is He].

1. “The son of Barachel the Buzite of the family of Ram.” As a descendant of Buz, Elihu was evidently a distant relative of Abraham. (Job 32:1, 2, 6; Ge 22:20, 21) Likely Elihu listened carefully to the entire debate between Job and his three would-be comforters. But, out of due respect for their age, he remained silent until all had finished speaking. Though modern critics have labeled Elihu as loquacious, saying that his speeches were long-winded, the statements of Elihu were not those of an impertinent young man. He fully appreciated that wisdom was not the exclusive possession of those advanced in years, but that God’s spirit made one truly wise. Elihu, therefore, leaned heavily on God’s spirit. He was thus able to discern correctly that Job had failed to appreciate that the vindication of Jehovah God is far more important than the vindication of any man and that Job’s three friends had actually pronounced God wicked.—Job 32:2-9, 18.

Elihu was impartial, not bestowing a flattering title on anyone. He recognized that he, like Job, was made of clay and that the Almighty was his Creator. Elihu had no intention of terrifying Job but spoke to him as a true friend, addressing Job by name, something that was not done by Eliphaz, Bildad, or Zophar.—Job 32:21, 22; 33:6.
In every respect Elihu exalted the position of the true God: The Almighty is just, rewarding the individual according to his conduct. He judges without partiality and is fully aware of the course taken by men. God hears the outcry of the afflicted. He is a Teacher who makes men wiser than the animal creation. Only untruth does God not hear, and so Elihu encouraged Job to wait for Him. Furthermore, Elihu assured Job that God was with him and that He would not preserve the wicked alive, but that those serving Him “will finish their days in what is good.” (Job 36:11) Job was then admonished to magnify the activity of God, the great Provider, who gives food in abundance. Elihu called Job’s attention to the great things done by God and His control of natural forces, encouraging Job to show himself “attentive to the wonderful works of God.” (Job 37:14) Elihu concluded on a lofty plane, saying concerning the Almighty: “He is exalted in power, and justice and abundance of righteousness he will not belittle. Therefore let men fear him.”—Job 37:23, 24; chaps 34-37.

Only by God’s spirit was it possible for Elihu to evaluate matters correctly and to speak the words having a fulfillment upon Job when he was restored: “Let him off from going down into the pit! I have found a ransom! Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.”—Job 33:24, 25.

I know. 'Wall-o-text.' But I seriously love it all!
And those of you smarter than me can get even more out of it than me, I would think. If it's not already old-hat, that is.
In case it hasn't come to your notice, in the beginning of Job it's made clear that Satan can control the weather, at least temporarily. Food for thought, in these days?
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 02:46 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
What is a "JW"??? I've heard this for years but never understood what it meant???
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 03:12 PM
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On the subject of "debate":...

In case it hasn't come to your notice, in the beginning of Job it's made clear that Satan can control the weather, at least temporarily. Food for thought, in these days?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

Technically, Job's visitors were not engaging in debate, but in interrogation. We don't call a prosecuting attorney's grilling of a witness "debate", but that's exactly what Job's visitors did. A debate is never on the guilt or innocence of one of the participants.

Re. the weather, Satan is in control of this world, and will be until Jesus returns to take physical, literal possession of what is rightfully his, bought at the cross so long ago.

What is a "JW"??? I've heard this for years but never understood what it meant???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25602762


Jehovah's Witnesses
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 03:15 PM
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JW's are right on somethings and wrong on others. They are right that they get into the Bible and actually teach their members, where churches don't anymore. I never learned anything sitting in a church pew. I learned alot as a JW for 7 years.

But, Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Trinity is true, our soul does live on after the body dies, the whole 1914 thing is ridiculous, and they are not the only ones who are Gods people.

Those reasons, among other things, is why I left the group.

However, I do consider them christians, even tho they do not consider me a christian.

hf
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


Lisa lisa, About the time I was 'studying' and we talked about 1914, I happened to go to NYC and to the Met Museum and they had a special exhibit about 'modernity' in design of clothes, and design of everything I guess. I was so struck by the visual evidence of 1914-15 really having been a turning point in human history. [And in the regular art collection I saw a painting, "Judith and Holofernes". Reading the caption describing this "Bible" story, I was convinced this couldn't be from the Bible, because it wasn't consistent with the "master's voice" I felt I had learned to know from my brief studies.- It's part of the Apocrypha, I'm sure you know.]

Another thing about '1914' was the repeated showings of "Upstairs, Downstairs" series I'd watched. The one takeaway,if you had to pick just one, would clearly be: in 1914 everything began to change and change massively.

I've even wondered if "Downton Abbey", the new "upstairs,downstairs" had to be created to muddy that message. Though from what I've seen of it, it's not yet obvious whether this is the case or not. [ I've noticed that if a popular movie or show, etc. contains 'too much truth', there will have to be a substitute with nearly the same name or something, lest the people derive some sustenance or a foothold in truth instead of the steady poison. example the perfectly odious and stupid "vicky christina barcelona", had to replace "barcelona".
Lisa*Lisa

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10/16/2012 03:17 PM

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JW's are right on somethings and wrong on others. They are right that they get into the Bible and actually teach their members, where churches don't anymore. I never learned anything sitting in a church pew. I learned alot as a JW for 7 years.

But, Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Trinity is true, our soul does live on after the body dies, the whole 1914 thing is ridiculous, and they are not the only ones who are Gods people.

Those reasons, among other things, is why I left the group.

However, I do consider them christians, even tho they do not consider me a christian.

hf
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


how could one who denys the deity of of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be considered a christian?

In John 8:24 Jesus declared: “For if you should not believe that I am [ego eimi] you will perish in your sins” (lit. trans.).
[link to christiandefense.org]

articles on JW's
[link to christiandefense.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19011211


It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
Have You Accepted Jesus As Your Savior Yet? What Are You Waiting For? Do you have questions about God or need someone to talk to? Email me at Lisalovesjesus7@gmail.com

____________________________


"Te​ll them, I love them" - Jesus Christ

"If love were a tree, compassion would be its fruit." - unknown
____________________________

A dear friend's website [link to www.savemenowjesus.com]

_____________________________

2 Corinthians 12:9 - "Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness." So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me."
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 03:20 PM
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It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


I do hope that this debate will be allowed to proceed, being about beliefs and their implications, rather than individuals. Ad hominem, like any fallacy, would not be allowed in a formal one at least. At the same time, if we really care about the people in such belief systems, we will not fail to present what we believe to be the truth, whether positive or negative.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 03:20 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
On the subject of "debate":...

In case it hasn't come to your notice, in the beginning of Job it's made clear that Satan can control the weather, at least temporarily. Food for thought, in these days?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

Technically, Job's visitors were not engaging in debate, but in interrogation. We don't call a prosecuting attorney's grilling of a witness "debate", but that's exactly what Job's visitors did. A debate is never on the guilt or innocence of one of the participants.

Re. the weather, Satan is in control of this world, and will be until Jesus returns to take physical, literal possession of what is rightfully his, bought at the cross so long ago.

What is a "JW"??? I've heard this for years but never understood what it meant???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25602762


Jehovah's Witnesses
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

I actually believe lawyers in a criminal trial are a perfect example of what's wrong with 'debate' in the present context and on present subject matter. Have to go help someone with their lunch and will be right back!
Lisa*Lisa

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10/16/2012 03:22 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


I do hope that this debate will be allowed to proceed, being about beliefs and their implications, rather than individuals. Ad hominem, like any fallacy, would not be allowed in a formal one at least. At the same time, if we really care about the people in such belief systems, we will not fail to present what we believe to be the truth, whether positive or negative.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


That's the key right there, if it's done with love as the motivating factor, then it's a good thing.

hf
Have You Accepted Jesus As Your Savior Yet? What Are You Waiting For? Do you have questions about God or need someone to talk to? Email me at Lisalovesjesus7@gmail.com

____________________________


"Te​ll them, I love them" - Jesus Christ

"If love were a tree, compassion would be its fruit." - unknown
____________________________

A dear friend's website [link to www.savemenowjesus.com]

_____________________________

2 Corinthians 12:9 - "Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness." So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me."
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:00 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man. The Son of God can manifest himself in different ways to his created beings. Are we to believe that humans fall and He becomes a human to save them, yet angels falls and he didnt do anything for them. he loves all equally and we have yet to find out what the Son of God did for the Angels. One can say if you worship Jesus u worship a human just like one can say if u worship Michael you worship an angel but I think neither is the case. If someone believes that Michael is non other than Jesus the Son of God than i see nonthing wrong with that but if they think michael is a created angel then thats wrong. Jesus, before he was born here, was known by many different names and titles but it is clear we are to call upon his new name "jesus", so i do have a problem if someone calls him by the other names when its clear it should be Jesus. I dont have a problem if someone says one of his past names was micheal and he as an arch angel...which really doesnt imply he was an angel(created being type) since the meaning is "chief of the angels". for instance, an archbishop is not a bishop but is the leader of the bishops.

one also has to realise that angel has many different meanings. it can mean the created beings that God made before humans. it can mean, men, that are messengers of God. and it can in some instances be used to describe the Lord God.

For instance:
In the book of Genesis, the angel of the Lord found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel?

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God." This is not to suggest that God is a created being, but rather that the word "angel" or messenger is sometimes used to refer to Deity.

When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him (Genesis 22:11, 15). Who was this angel?

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

When Moses saw the burning bush, "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:6)

In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. (Acts 7:37, 38) The name "Michael" means Who is like God? The activities of Michael could not be performed by a created being, but only by the power of divinity.

Whose Voice Raises the Dead?

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. "Whose voice is it?" "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (John 5:25)

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (John 5:28)

Paul says that it is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. John says that it is the voice of the Son of God. No creature has the power over death. Only Jesus has that power.

"And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:17, 18)


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

It was no mere angel that cast Satan out of heaven! He was cast out by the "power of his Christ."

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10)


what is my personal belief? well, i think michael is how the Son of God showed himself to angels just like Jesus is how he was among us. Same person, different name and different role. He is not a created being. one day when we get to heaven im sure we will here the story of the great sacrifices God did for the angels like he did for us humans. for now, that is not important but only to accept Jesus as our savior and follow in his ways.

Revelation 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19256665


Hello ac 19256665

Thank you for sharing your views and ideas!

While I can totally empathize with your thinking and conclusions, I have to (very respectfully) disagree with your position!
See, here’s a simple but critical point that we (collectively) need to come to terms with:
“God Is…we’re *not*!”
Because He Is God…and we are not…all things are on His terms and His terms alone! Regardless of what we think or how we feel!
When we say things like: “i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man”, it puts us in a place that is far from reverence for The Most High God, and, it reveals our opinion of ourselves and projects our will over the Work and Will of God! Truly, we would all be infinitely richer to instead, simply surrender to God and His written Word! This is one of the amazing things about The Word of God…that it does *not* need any man or organization to interpret it for us…interpretation will always lead to the founding of a religion! It is truth, that God’s Word interprets Itself! For example, if I pick up The Bible and read what it says in John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”, I come away with the understanding that God’s Word is telling me that Jesus Is God! But I do well if I continue on to search for verification that I have ascertained the proper message from John 1:1…so, let’s say I continue to search The Scriptures and I find this passage in John 8:58 where Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." – I can then begin to continue on with confidence that I am on the right track – God’s Word has declared that Jesus Is God! Make sense? Simply put (and again with respect), while your position, perceived as you set forth, does seem to extend a more comfortable and easier path, it really is a fallacy that could be used to lead someone down a path that is *not* God ordained! Remember when Cain got totally “bent out of shape” because God rejected His offering? Keep in mind that Cain *no doubt about it*, offered up *the very best* of his crops…but Cain’s offering was not in keeping with what God had asked for! Cain could have just as easily traded his fine offering for one of his brothers flock…but foolishly, Cain decided to turn to his own reason and understanding, and the rest is history! So, respectfully, this was a long winded way of saying that even though you are trying your best, in the end it won’t help you unless you come to understand that this is all about God and His Will for us – it really is His Way or our way – one way leads to life and the other to death!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:03 PM

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still waiting
 Quoting: jdb


Too bad you can't tell if an AC is online, or what timezone they're in. If they do respond you might want to set up some kind of window in which either of you has to respond or they forfeit. Though of course, GLP isn't exactly an ideal debate environment... well nigh impossible IMHO.

I got into the whole "Michael" thing last year in the blog of someone who supposedly was Southern Baptist and highly regarded as a pastor. He started teaching that "Michael is Jesus" and just kept repeating the same few JW talking points, as if he was one. Bizarre.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Thank you brother!

I *totally* get that glp is a harder environment for this kind of thing...but I have a hard time *not* standing up or defending The Faith when JW's are roaming and pitching their doctrine!

I noted that we should "ping" each other via glp message when we post our replies...and I did that - only problem is that this guy is an ac that's connected to DGN - so I had to try to ping him through DGN! The ac accepted my invitation to debate but I may have to wait awhile to hear from him! The most important thing for me is that JW doctrine not be allowed to go unchallenged!

Yeah...the Michael / Jesus deal is flat out heresy!

Thanks for checking in brother!

Pray!
 Quoting: jdb


Both me and keep2thecode are 'girls' BTW.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Oh so sorry - I'm sure the both of you hate that! Will *try* hard to remember!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 04:05 PM
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Oh so sorry - I'm sure the both of you hate that! Will *try* hard to remember!
 Quoting: jdb


's okay... it proves to me that people can't tell male and female brains apart.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:15 PM

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JW's are right on somethings and wrong on others. They are right that they get into the Bible and actually teach their members, where churches don't anymore. I never learned anything sitting in a church pew. I learned alot as a JW for 7 years.

But, Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Trinity is true, our soul does live on after the body dies, the whole 1914 thing is ridiculous, and they are not the only ones who are Gods people.

Those reasons, among other things, is why I left the group.

However, I do consider them christians, even tho they do not consider me a christian.

hf
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


how could one who denys the deity of of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be considered a christian?

In John 8:24 Jesus declared: “For if you should not believe that I am [ego eimi] you will perish in your sins” (lit. trans.).
[link to christiandefense.org]

articles on JW's
[link to christiandefense.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19011211


It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


Hey Lisa!

Thank you for checking in and posting!

I understand your point for hating debates...but can all of us, on both or various sides, choose to respect and love each other while voicing our thoughts and concerns? I am convinced that we can! Christians need to contend for The Faith, but this does not imply that unholy or unrighteous behavior needs to be a part of it...yes?
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:16 PM

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It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


I do hope that this debate will be allowed to proceed, being about beliefs and their implications, rather than individuals. Ad hominem, like any fallacy, would not be allowed in a formal one at least. At the same time, if we really care about the people in such belief systems, we will not fail to present what we believe to be the truth, whether positive or negative.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Amen sister...good call!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:19 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
On the subject of "debate":...

In case it hasn't come to your notice, in the beginning of Job it's made clear that Satan can control the weather, at least temporarily. Food for thought, in these days?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

Technically, Job's visitors were not engaging in debate, but in interrogation. We don't call a prosecuting attorney's grilling of a witness "debate", but that's exactly what Job's visitors did. A debate is never on the guilt or innocence of one of the participants.

Re. the weather, Satan is in control of this world, and will be until Jesus returns to take physical, literal possession of what is rightfully his, bought at the cross so long ago.

What is a "JW"??? I've heard this for years but never understood what it meant???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25602762


Jehovah's Witnesses
 Quoting: Keep2theCode

I actually believe lawyers in a criminal trial are a perfect example of what's wrong with 'debate' in the present context and on present subject matter. Have to go help someone with their lunch and will be right back!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


No attitude of interrogation...no malice present
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:20 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
Oh so sorry - I'm sure the both of you hate that! Will *try* hard to remember!
 Quoting: jdb


's okay... it proves to me that people can't tell male and female brains apart.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


LOL
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Lisa*Lisa

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10/16/2012 04:21 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
JW's are right on somethings and wrong on others. They are right that they get into the Bible and actually teach their members, where churches don't anymore. I never learned anything sitting in a church pew. I learned alot as a JW for 7 years.

But, Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Trinity is true, our soul does live on after the body dies, the whole 1914 thing is ridiculous, and they are not the only ones who are Gods people.

Those reasons, among other things, is why I left the group.

However, I do consider them christians, even tho they do not consider me a christian.

hf
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


how could one who denys the deity of of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ be considered a christian?

In John 8:24 Jesus declared: “For if you should not believe that I am [ego eimi] you will perish in your sins” (lit. trans.).
[link to christiandefense.org]

articles on JW's
[link to christiandefense.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19011211


It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


Hey Lisa!

Thank you for checking in and posting!

I understand your point for hating debates...but can all of us, on both or various sides, choose to respect and love each other while voicing our thoughts and concerns? I am convinced that we can! Christians need to contend for The Faith, but this does not imply that unholy or unrighteous behavior needs to be a part of it...yes?
 Quoting: jdb


Yes, absolutely!

hf
Have You Accepted Jesus As Your Savior Yet? What Are You Waiting For? Do you have questions about God or need someone to talk to? Email me at Lisalovesjesus7@gmail.com

____________________________


"Te​ll them, I love them" - Jesus Christ

"If love were a tree, compassion would be its fruit." - unknown
____________________________

A dear friend's website [link to www.savemenowjesus.com]

_____________________________

2 Corinthians 12:9 - "Each time he said, "My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness." So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me."
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 04:46 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
QUOTING LISA LISA:It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
END QUOTE LISALISA


On the subject of "debate":...

Technically, Job's visitors were not engaging in debate, but in interrogation. We don't call a prosecuting attorney's grilling of a witness "debate", but that's exactly what Job's visitors did. A debate is never on the guilt or innocence of one of the participants.

Re. the weather, Satan is in control of this world, and will be until Jesus returns to take physical, literal possession of what is rightfully his, bought at the cross so long ago.

What is a "JW"??? I've heard this for years but never understood what it meant???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25602762


Jehovah's Witnesses
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

I actually believe lawyers in a criminal trial are a perfect example of what's wrong with 'debate' in the present context and on present subject matter. Have to go help someone with their lunch and will be right back!
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



As far as I remember, I came up with this on my own: Satan started the system of dialectics in the g. of eden. He skillfully called into question whether Eve should only listen to one 'side'. Now, it seems widely taken for granted that the truth can be found somewhere in between the 2 sides that exist to everything, supposedly, and that everyone shaves the truth a little at least sometimes. the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial. Both sides will typically withhold evidence benefiting the 'opponent' up to or beyond what's legal. No one expects either to be about getting the truth out there or chances are they wouldn't be considered competent.
[only the Witnesses are expected to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God." witnesses, haha get it?]
This image has been constantly in my head for a few days with the mental caption: "Wolves in sheep's clothing?"
[link to www.google.com] I think this rig-out could be expressive of the very idea above. you see the disclosure or caveat of the wolf face and body with the little sheepy 'disguise' on top. I wish I had time to go into this more, now. But want to study for and attend my meeting tonight feel I must answer op's hebrews 2:5 at least a little. love 2U2,ac
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:50 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Yes, Jesus is both God and man, the ideal mediator between God and mankind. We take all the scriptures together to come to this conclusion.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Hi ac 10858311 I am so grateful to find you on the thread today! Also,(may we respectfully call and answer you by something other then that number?

Another interesting point to consider regarding 1 Tim 2:5 is that if He was not raised physically from the dead...then how could he be a *man* acting as a mediator?

ac 10858311, may I respectfully request we continue?

We left off at the point where I was asking where Scripture teaches us that Jesus was/is Michael the Archangel. May we pick up from that question?

Also, I apologize because I will be out of the house this evening until about 9:30ish...but will check back hoping for your response!

Oh i forgot...would you consider signing up for a trial subscription? I won't cost you anything and I believe we can "ping" each other via private messages to notify each other when we post responses...yes?

Thank you ac!
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
jdb (OP)

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10/16/2012 04:56 PM

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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
QUOTING LISA LISA:It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311
END QUOTE LISALISA

On the subject of "debate":...

Technically, Job's visitors were not engaging in debate, but in interrogation. We don't call a prosecuting attorney's grilling of a witness "debate", but that's exactly what Job's visitors did. A debate is never on the guilt or innocence of one of the participants.

Re. the weather, Satan is in control of this world, and will be until Jesus returns to take physical, literal possession of what is rightfully his, bought at the cross so long ago.

What is a "JW"??? I've heard this for years but never understood what it meant???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 25602762


Jehovah's Witnesses
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

I actually believe lawyers in a criminal trial are a perfect example of what's wrong with 'debate' in the present context and on present subject matter. Have to go help someone with their lunch and will be right back!
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



As far as I remember, I came up with this on my own: Satan started the system of dialectics in the g. of eden. He skillfully called into question whether Eve should only listen to one 'side'. Now, it seems widely taken for granted that the truth can be found somewhere in between the 2 sides that exist to everything, supposedly, and that everyone shaves the truth a little at least sometimes. the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial. Both sides will typically withhold evidence benefiting the 'opponent' up to or beyond what's legal. No one expects either to be about getting the truth out there or chances are they wouldn't be considered competent.
[only the Witnesses are expected to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God." witnesses, haha get it?]
This image has been constantly in my head for a few days with the mental caption: "Wolves in sheep's clothing?"
[link to www.google.com] I think this rig-out could be expressive of the very idea above. you see the disclosure or caveat of the wolf face and body with the little sheepy 'disguise' on top. I wish I had time to go into this more, now. But want to study for and attend my meeting tonight feel I must answer op's hebrews 2:5 at least a little. love 2U2,ac
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


ac 10858311 - are saying this:

"the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial."

about me personally?

I hope not - if so, I will respond (respectfully) when I get home this evening.
God Is! We're not! Let's knock off all the nonsense!
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 05:02 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
As far as I remember, I came up with this on my own: Satan started the system of dialectics in the g. of eden. He skillfully called into question whether Eve should only listen to one 'side'. Now, it seems widely taken for granted that the truth can be found somewhere in between the 2 sides that exist to everything, supposedly, and that everyone shaves the truth a little at least sometimes. the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial. Both sides will typically withhold evidence benefiting the 'opponent' up to or beyond what's legal. No one expects either to be about getting the truth out there or chances are they wouldn't be considered competent.
[only the Witnesses are expected to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God." witnesses, haha get it?]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Again, debate as being proposed in this thread is nothing like either Satan's treachery or the actions of attorneys in a courtroom.

It is an idea being debated here, not either of the participants' character. Neither side is trying to deceive the other; on the contrary, they are trying to persuade them to what they believe is the truth. Even in the courtroom, the lawyers are not trying to deceive each other, but to persuade the jury. And to think that in every debate the participants are serving their egos is itself an ad hominem attack. So far, it seems that the only one trying to undermine the debate and cast aspersions on anyone's character is... you.

People can and do take pride in their skills, and this is not necessarily wrong. Debate is no different... when the participants are trained or professional debaters. This is hardly the case in this thread.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/16/2012 05:04 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man. The Son of God can manifest himself in different ways to his created beings. Are we to believe that humans fall and He becomes a human to save them, yet angels falls and he didnt do anything for them. he loves all equally and we have yet to find out what the Son of God did for the Angels. One can say if you worship Jesus u worship a human just like one can say if u worship Michael you worship an angel but I think neither is the case. If someone believes that Michael is non other than Jesus the Son of God than i see nonthing wrong with that but if they think michael is a created angel then thats wrong. Jesus, before he was born here, was known by many different names and titles but it is clear we are to call upon his new name "jesus", so i do have a problem if someone calls him by the other names when its clear it should be Jesus. I dont have a problem if someone says one of his past names was micheal and he as an arch angel...which really doesnt imply he was an angel(created being type) since the meaning is "chief of the angels". for instance, an archbishop is not a bishop but is the leader of the bishops.

one also has to realise that angel has many different meanings. it can mean the created beings that God made before humans. it can mean, men, that are messengers of God. and it can in some instances be used to describe the Lord God.

For instance:
In the book of Genesis, the angel of the Lord found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel?

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God." This is not to suggest that God is a created being, but rather that the word "angel" or messenger is sometimes used to refer to Deity.

When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him (Genesis 22:11, 15). Who was this angel?

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

When Moses saw the burning bush, "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:6)

In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. (Acts 7:37, 38) The name "Michael" means Who is like God? The activities of Michael could not be performed by a created being, but only by the power of divinity.

Whose Voice Raises the Dead?

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. "Whose voice is it?" "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (John 5:25)

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (John 5:28)

Paul says that it is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. John says that it is the voice of the Son of God. No creature has the power over death. Only Jesus has that power.

"And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:17, 18)


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

It was no mere angel that cast Satan out of heaven! He was cast out by the "power of his Christ."

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10)


what is my personal belief? well, i think michael is how the Son of God showed himself to angels just like Jesus is how he was among us. Same person, different name and different role. He is not a created being. one day when we get to heaven im sure we will here the story of the great sacrifices God did for the angels like he did for us humans. for now, that is not important but only to accept Jesus as our savior and follow in his ways.

Revelation 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19256665


Hello ac 19256665

Thank you for sharing your views and ideas!

While I can totally empathize with your thinking and conclusions, I have to (very respectfully) disagree with your position!
See, here’s a simple but critical point that we (collectively) need to come to terms with:
“God Is…we’re *not*!”
Because He Is God…and we are not…all things are on His terms and His terms alone! Regardless of what we think or how we feel!
When we say things like: “i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man”, it puts us in a place that is far from reverence for The Most High God, and, it reveals our opinion of ourselves and projects our will over the Work and Will of God! Truly, we would all be infinitely richer to instead, simply surrender to God and His written Word! This is one of the amazing things about The Word of God…that it does *not* need any man or organization to interpret it for us…interpretation will always lead to the founding of a religion! It is truth, that God’s Word interprets Itself! For example, if I pick up The Bible and read what it says in John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”, I come away with the understanding that God’s Word is telling me that Jesus Is God! But I do well if I continue on to search for verification that I have ascertained the proper message from John 1:1…so, let’s say I continue to search The Scriptures and I find this passage in John 8:58 where Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." – I can then begin to continue on with confidence that I am on the right track – God’s Word has declared that Jesus Is God! Make sense? Simply put (and again with respect), while your position, perceived as you set forth, does seem to extend a more comfortable and easier path, it really is a fallacy that could be used to lead someone down a path that is *not* God ordained! Remember when Cain got totally “bent out of shape” because God rejected His offering? Keep in mind that Cain *no doubt about it*, offered up *the very best* of his crops…but Cain’s offering was not in keeping with what God had asked for! Cain could have just as easily traded his fine offering for one of his brothers flock…but foolishly, Cain decided to turn to his own reason and understanding, and the rest is history! So, respectfully, this was a long winded way of saying that even though you are trying your best, in the end it won’t help you unless you come to understand that this is all about God and His Will for us – it really is His Way or our way – one way leads to life and the other to death!
 Quoting: jdb


Does John 1:1 prove that Jesus is God?
John 1:1, RS: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB].” NE reads “what God was, the Word was.” Mo says “the Logos was divine.” AT and Sd tell us “the Word was divine.” The interlinear rendering of ED is “a god was the Word.” NW reads “the Word was a god”; NTIV uses the same wording.

What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying “the Word was God”? The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os′ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god.

What did the apostle John mean when he wrote John 1:1? Did he mean that Jesus is himself God or perhaps that Jesus is one God with the Father? In the same chapter, verse 18, John wrote: “No one [“no man,” KJ, Dy] has ever seen God; the only Son [“the only-begotten god,” NW], who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.” (RS) Had any human seen Jesus Christ, the Son? Of course! So, then, was John saying that Jesus was God? Obviously not. Toward the end of his Gospel, John summarized matters, saying: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, [not God, but] the Son of God.”—John 20:31, RS
Anonymous Coward
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
QUOTING LISA LISA:It's one thing to "debate" about the JW doctrine and theories, but it's another thing to actually be one and know the faces, hearts and people behind the doctrine.

That's why I hate debates about doctrine because it reduces a person down to a list of rules and theories. It does not include the heart and mind of a person and their relationship with their savior.

I do not believe alot of their doctrine, that's one of the reasons I left. But, I believe in my heart of hearts that I was "saved" when I was a JW, and I believe that many JW's are also "saved".

It's a heart condition, Jesus reads the heart of a man, and good thing because we are all wrong on somethings.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311
END QUOTE LISALISA

On the subject of "debate":...

Technically, Job's visitors were not engaging in debate, but in interrogation. We don't call a prosecuting attorney's grilling of a witness "debate", but that's exactly what Job's visitors did. A debate is never on the guilt or innocence of one of the participants.

Re. the weather, Satan is in control of this world, and will be until Jesus returns to take physical, literal possession of what is rightfully his, bought at the cross so long ago.

...


Jehovah's Witnesses
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

I actually believe lawyers in a criminal trial are a perfect example of what's wrong with 'debate' in the present context and on present subject matter. Have to go help someone with their lunch and will be right back!
 Quoting: Keep2theCode



As far as I remember, I came up with this on my own: Satan started the system of dialectics in the g. of eden. He skillfully called into question whether Eve should only listen to one 'side'. Now, it seems widely taken for granted that the truth can be found somewhere in between the 2 sides that exist to everything, supposedly, and that everyone shaves the truth a little at least sometimes. the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial. Both sides will typically withhold evidence benefiting the 'opponent' up to or beyond what's legal. No one expects either to be about getting the truth out there or chances are they wouldn't be considered competent.
[only the Witnesses are expected to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God." witnesses, haha get it?]
This image has been constantly in my head for a few days with the mental caption: "Wolves in sheep's clothing?"
[link to www.google.com] I think this rig-out could be expressive of the very idea above. you see the disclosure or caveat of the wolf face and body with the little sheepy 'disguise' on top. I wish I had time to go into this more, now. But want to study for and attend my meeting tonight feel I must answer op's hebrews 2:5 at least a little. love 2U2,ac
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


ac 10858311 - are saying this:

"the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial."

about me personally?

I hope not - if so, I will respond (respectfully) when I get home this evening.
 Quoting: jdb


No, I'm talking about the general public perception, and truth, about debaters and lawyers. I think 'debate' is a secular activity, as every biblical reference did not involve those who serve God. I hope I'm mistaken ,but begin to see some twisting of my words and a bit of hostility peaking through the much-mentioned respect.
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
As far as I remember, I came up with this on my own: Satan started the system of dialectics in the g. of eden. He skillfully called into question whether Eve should only listen to one 'side'. Now, it seems widely taken for granted that the truth can be found somewhere in between the 2 sides that exist to everything, supposedly, and that everyone shaves the truth a little at least sometimes. the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial. Both sides will typically withhold evidence benefiting the 'opponent' up to or beyond what's legal. No one expects either to be about getting the truth out there or chances are they wouldn't be considered competent.
[only the Witnesses are expected to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God." witnesses, haha get it?]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Again, debate as being proposed in this thread is nothing like either Satan's treachery or the actions of attorneys in a courtroom.

It is an idea being debated here, not either of the participants' character. Neither side is trying to deceive the other; on the contrary, they are trying to persuade them to what they believe is the truth. Even in the courtroom, the lawyers are not trying to deceive each other, but to persuade the jury. And to think that in every debate the participants are serving their egos is itself an ad hominem attack. So far, it seems that the only one trying to undermine the debate and cast aspersions on anyone's character is... you.

People can and do take pride in their skills, and this is not necessarily wrong. Debate is no different... when the participants are trained or professional debaters. This is hardly the case in this thread.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


No I think actually you just launched the first ad hominem
I was talking about the public
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
As far as I remember, I came up with this on my own: Satan started the system of dialectics in the g. of eden. He skillfully called into question whether Eve should only listen to one 'side'. Now, it seems widely taken for granted that the truth can be found somewhere in between the 2 sides that exist to everything, supposedly, and that everyone shaves the truth a little at least sometimes. the debater is a stock character, understood to be in it partially for his ego's sake and the pleasure of persuasion, regardless of what even he believes about the merits of his 'side'. Same with lawyers in a trial. Both sides will typically withhold evidence benefiting the 'opponent' up to or beyond what's legal. No one expects either to be about getting the truth out there or chances are they wouldn't be considered competent.
[only the Witnesses are expected to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God." witnesses, haha get it?]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Again, debate as being proposed in this thread is nothing like either Satan's treachery or the actions of attorneys in a courtroom.

It is an idea being debated here, not either of the participants' character. Neither side is trying to deceive the other; on the contrary, they are trying to persuade them to what they believe is the truth. Even in the courtroom, the lawyers are not trying to deceive each other, but to persuade the jury. And to think that in every debate the participants are serving their egos is itself an ad hominem attack. So far, it seems that the only one trying to undermine the debate and cast aspersions on anyone's character is... you.

People can and do take pride in their skills, and this is not necessarily wrong. Debate is no different... when the participants are trained or professional debaters. This is hardly the case in this thread.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


i was talking about the public perception of debaters and lawyers. and whatever my lack of skills, I will admit to all the 'sins' I outlined above. I would doubt the sincerity of anyone who wouldn't.
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 05:36 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
No I think actually you just launched the first ad hominem
I was talking about the public
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

You certainly did not make this clear, but instead made heavy inferences that your opponent would be engaging in some sort of egotistical game. I observed what you said, and it was understood by both me and your opponent as a personal attack against him, and now you're aiming at me as well.

i was talking about the public perception of debaters and lawyers. and whatever my lack of skills, I will admit to all the 'sins' I outlined above. I would doubt the sincerity of anyone who wouldn't.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Again, you hardly made this clear. But I still strongly disagree with your definition of debate as somehow unbecoming of Christians.

ADDED: If what has transpired so far is considered "twisting" and "hostile", I hold little hope of your opponent being able to disagree with you in the slightest without being charged guilty of those faults. Try and just focus on the arguments and not how they are presented.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/16/2012 05:38 PM
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 05:40 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Yes, Jesus is both God and man, the ideal mediator between God and mankind. We take all the scriptures together to come to this conclusion.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Hi ac 10858311 I am so grateful to find you on the thread today! Also,(may we respectfully call and answer you by something other then that number?

Another interesting point to consider regarding 1 Tim 2:5 is that if He was not raised physically from the dead...then how could he be a *man* acting as a mediator?

ac 10858311, may I respectfully request we continue?

We left off at the point where I was asking where Scripture teaches us that Jesus was/is Michael the Archangel. May we pick up from that question?

Also, I apologize because I will be out of the house this evening until about 9:30ish...but will check back hoping for your response!

Oh i forgot...would you consider signing up for a trial subscription? I won't cost you anything and I believe we can "ping" each other via private messages to notify each other when we post responses...yes?

Thank you ac!
 Quoting: jdb


I'm off too and won't be back til then so ,doesn't look hopeful, but I'll try.
Anonymous Coward
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10/16/2012 05:47 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
No I think actually you just launched the first ad hominem
I was talking about the public
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311

You certainly did not make this clear, but instead made heavy inferences that your opponent would be engaging in some sort of egotistical game. I observed what you said, and it was understood by both me and your opponent as a personal attack against him, and now you're aiming at me as well.

i was talking about the public perception of debaters and lawyers. and whatever my lack of skills, I will admit to all the 'sins' I outlined above. I would doubt the sincerity of anyone who wouldn't.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


Again, you hardly made this clear. But I still strongly disagree with your definition of debate as somehow unbecoming of Christians.

ADDED: If what has transpired so far is considered "twisting" and "hostile", I hold little hope of your opponent being able to disagree with you in the slightest without being charged guilty of those faults. Try and just focus on the arguments and not how they are presented.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I'm losing hope too. "heavy", indeed! If I'm so "unclear" after meaning no such thing at all, and after trying my very best to express myself clearly, then what's the point of my continuing? I'm obviously not 'the man' for the job.
Keep2theCode

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10/16/2012 05:54 PM
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
I'm losing hope too. "heavy", indeed! If I'm so "unclear" after meaning no such thing at all, and after trying my very best to express myself clearly, then what's the point of my continuing? I'm obviously not 'the man' for the job.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


The problem seems to be "mixed signals", and again, two people understood you to be referring to your opponent. But now that it is clear that you have an aversion to any debate for Christians, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you agreed to participate in the first place. Can you tell us what you thought the OP invited you here to do? Thanks.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
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Re: JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth
i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man. The Son of God can manifest himself in different ways to his created beings. Are we to believe that humans fall and He becomes a human to save them, yet angels falls and he didnt do anything for them. he loves all equally and we have yet to find out what the Son of God did for the Angels. One can say if you worship Jesus u worship a human just like one can say if u worship Michael you worship an angel but I think neither is the case. If someone believes that Michael is non other than Jesus the Son of God than i see nonthing wrong with that but if they think michael is a created angel then thats wrong. Jesus, before he was born here, was known by many different names and titles but it is clear we are to call upon his new name "jesus", so i do have a problem if someone calls him by the other names when its clear it should be Jesus. I dont have a problem if someone says one of his past names was micheal and he as an arch angel...which really doesnt imply he was an angel(created being type) since the meaning is "chief of the angels". for instance, an archbishop is not a bishop but is the leader of the bishops.

one also has to realise that angel has many different meanings. it can mean the created beings that God made before humans. it can mean, men, that are messengers of God. and it can in some instances be used to describe the Lord God.

For instance:
In the book of Genesis, the angel of the Lord found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel?

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God." This is not to suggest that God is a created being, but rather that the word "angel" or messenger is sometimes used to refer to Deity.

When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him (Genesis 22:11, 15). Who was this angel?

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

When Moses saw the burning bush, "the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the bush." (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:6)

In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. (Acts 7:37, 38) The name "Michael" means Who is like God? The activities of Michael could not be performed by a created being, but only by the power of divinity.

Whose Voice Raises the Dead?

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. "Whose voice is it?" "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (John 5:25)

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (John 5:28)

Paul says that it is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. John says that it is the voice of the Son of God. No creature has the power over death. Only Jesus has that power.

"And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:17, 18)


"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

It was no mere angel that cast Satan out of heaven! He was cast out by the "power of his Christ."

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10)


what is my personal belief? well, i think michael is how the Son of God showed himself to angels just like Jesus is how he was among us. Same person, different name and different role. He is not a created being. one day when we get to heaven im sure we will here the story of the great sacrifices God did for the angels like he did for us humans. for now, that is not important but only to accept Jesus as our savior and follow in his ways.

Revelation 14:12

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 19256665


Hello ac 19256665

Thank you for sharing your views and ideas!

While I can totally empathize with your thinking and conclusions, I have to (very respectfully) disagree with your position!
See, here’s a simple but critical point that we (collectively) need to come to terms with:
“God Is…we’re *not*!”
Because He Is God…and we are not…all things are on His terms and His terms alone! Regardless of what we think or how we feel!
When we say things like: “i dont understand what all the fuss is about. if they believe michael the arch angel is the way God the Son showed himself to angels then what difference is with God the Son showing himself as Jesus the Son of Man”, it puts us in a place that is far from reverence for The Most High God, and, it reveals our opinion of ourselves and projects our will over the Work and Will of God! Truly, we would all be infinitely richer to instead, simply surrender to God and His written Word! This is one of the amazing things about The Word of God…that it does *not* need any man or organization to interpret it for us…interpretation will always lead to the founding of a religion! It is truth, that God’s Word interprets Itself! For example, if I pick up The Bible and read what it says in John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”, I come away with the understanding that God’s Word is telling me that Jesus Is God! But I do well if I continue on to search for verification that I have ascertained the proper message from John 1:1…so, let’s say I continue to search The Scriptures and I find this passage in John 8:58 where Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." – I can then begin to continue on with confidence that I am on the right track – God’s Word has declared that Jesus Is God! Make sense? Simply put (and again with respect), while your position, perceived as you set forth, does seem to extend a more comfortable and easier path, it really is a fallacy that could be used to lead someone down a path that is *not* God ordained! Remember when Cain got totally “bent out of shape” because God rejected His offering? Keep in mind that Cain *no doubt about it*, offered up *the very best* of his crops…but Cain’s offering was not in keeping with what God had asked for! Cain could have just as easily traded his fine offering for one of his brothers flock…but foolishly, Cain decided to turn to his own reason and understanding, and the rest is history! So, respectfully, this was a long winded way of saying that even though you are trying your best, in the end it won’t help you unless you come to understand that this is all about God and His Will for us – it really is His Way or our way – one way leads to life and the other to death!
 Quoting: jdb


Does John 1:1 prove that Jesus is God?
John 1:1, RS: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [also KJ, JB, Dy, Kx, NAB].” NE reads “what God was, the Word was.” Mo says “the Logos was divine.” AT and Sd tell us “the Word was divine.” The interlinear rendering of ED is “a god was the Word.” NW reads “the Word was a god”; NTIV uses the same wording.

What is it that these translators are seeing in the Greek text that moves some of them to refrain from saying “the Word was God”? The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os′ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god.

What did the apostle John mean when he wrote John 1:1? Did he mean that Jesus is himself God or perhaps that Jesus is one God with the Father? In the same chapter, verse 18, John wrote: “No one [“no man,” KJ, Dy] has ever seen God; the only Son [“the only-begotten god,” NW], who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.” (RS) Had any human seen Jesus Christ, the Son? Of course! So, then, was John saying that Jesus was God? Obviously not. Toward the end of his Gospel, John summarized matters, saying: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, [not God, but] the Son of God.”—John 20:31, RS
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 10858311


John 8:58:
RS reads: “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [Greek, e·go ei·mi].’” (NE, KJ, TEV, JB, NAB all read “I am,” some even using capital letters to convey the idea of a title. Thus they endeavor to connect the expression with Exodus 3:14, where, according to their rendering, God refers to himself by the title “I Am.”) However, in NW the latter part of John 8:58 reads: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (The same idea is conveyed by the wording in AT, Mo, CBW, and SE.)
Which rendering agrees with the context? The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·go ei·mi as a title to the holy spirit.
Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei·mi] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·go ei·mi] (Jo. 8:58).”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.