JW Apologist vs Christian Debate - Search for The Truth

I just read this thoroughly for the first time and would like to comment further. My comments will be in blue and stuck in just after what I'm answering. I think this will save time and be clearer. Black text is from keep2thecode's reply to above.

The definition of "Christian" is something most people want to make up these days. If we say we get ours from the Bible, they point to all the disagreements over interpretation as evidence that nothing at all can be proved from the Bible. I don't think you were referring to Jehovah's Witnesses here, or at least not only us, but reading it quickly one might get that impression because the person above was referring to them. I didn't want the impression left that the witnesses are saying nothing can be proved from the Bible, and that we are even generating evidence for this claim by having some different interpretations to, well - whatever your interpretations are? Otherwise it's an excellent point. I enjoyed reading it and thank you for saying it so well.

Yet if that were true, then why would anyone care what they called their beliefs? If the whole Bible is disputable, then what's the point? But the disagreements often stem from logical errors, incomplete knowledge of the original language, or careless reading. Of the disputes that can legitimately [I dispute the use of this word. Who determines this legitimacy?] be taken from the Bible, none are over the very essential teaching that Jesus is God incarnate [ If only we could convince Jesus that he was God incarnate, because he said repeatedly that he was not.] who rose from the dead, and that He is the only Way, Truth, and Life.And with these last 2 beliefs jehovah's Witnesses not only heartily and joyfully agree, but may be the most effective teachers of, as they work to spread the good news as widely as possible. If not even this teaching can be accepted, then IMHO such a person or group has no right to claim the name of Christ.

John said that "Whoever has the Son, has the Father as well(1 John 2:21-25).[True , but John did not say Whoever claimsto have the Son has the Father as well.", but he might want you to know something,because he loves you so,: whoever claims the JWs do not have the Son, per the definition in the scriptures, does not yet have the Son and does not yet have the Father either.] Since JWs do not , per the definition in the scriptures, have the son, they do not have the Father either. For this reason, even the Jews had to accept Jesus to be saved.[yes.]

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", "I AM", and was crucified ultimately because of blasphemy; his enemies understood him to equate himself with God. See also [link to www.fether.net]


John 10:30 "I and the Father are one*.”

1 Cor. 3:8 "Now he that plants and he that waters are one*, but each [person] will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

John 17:20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one*, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth."


* Or, “at unity.” Lit., “one (thing).”
All three of these verses had the same greek word :Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation , translated as "ONE".


About "I am", and it's alleged significance in identifying Jesus Christ as the same person as his father, Almighty God:
Attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some say that (e·go ei·mi) is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression ani hu, “I am he,” which is used by God. However, it is to be noted that this Hebrew expression is also used by man.—See 1Ch 21:17 ftn.

Further attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some try to use Ex 3:14 (LXX) which reads: (E·go ei·mi ho on), which means “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One.” This attempt cannot be sustained because the expression in Ex 3:14 is different from the expression in Joh 8:58. (See Ex 3:14 ftn.) Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures it is not possible to make an identification of Jesus with Jehovah as being the same person.—See 1Pe 2:3 ftn; App 6A, 6E. [link to wol.jw.org]

[link to wol.jw.org]

Keeping to the code, you notice above how mention of the LXX corresponds to what I think you were saying about it, because I've seen the Hebrew, original I think, not derived from the LXX as you were talking about on your thread yesterday, and that hebrew seems even more different to John 8:58. You did inspire me to look into what you were saying about this and the Masoretic text, but haven't yet.
And I'm dying to know what messianic prophesies have supposedly, according to one group,
"not been fulfilled". Apollo Illuminist claimed the Messiah would be riding on an ass, that that hadn't been fulfilled!

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", "I AM", and was crucified ultimately because of blasphemy; his enemies understood him to equate himself with God. See also [link to www.fether.net]

The above is quoted from Keep2thecode back on pg. 1.

sorry I've made kind of a mess of the attributions ,so that it may be unclear who's saying what.

K2TC,above you mention john 10:30 and heres another perspective :
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one*.”

1 Cor. 3:8 "Now he that plants and he that waters are one*, but each [person] will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

John 17:20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one*, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth."


* Or, “at unity.” Lit., “one (thing).”
All three of these verses had the same greek word :Gr., hen, neuter, to show oneness in cooperation , translated as "ONE".


About "I am", and it's alleged significance in identifying Jesus Christ as the same person as his father, Almighty God:
Attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some say that (e·go ei·mi) is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression ani hu, “I am he,” which is used by God. However, it is to be noted that this Hebrew expression is also used by man.—See 1Ch 21:17 ftn.

Further attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some try to use Ex 3:14 (LXX) which reads: (E·go ei·mi ho on), which means “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One.” This attempt cannot be sustained because the expression in Ex 3:14 is different from the expression in Joh 8:58. (See Ex 3:14 ftn.) Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures it is not possible to make an identification of Jesus with Jehovah as being the same person.—See 1Pe 2:3 ftn; App 6A, 6E. [link to wol.jw.org]

[link to wol.jw.org]

Keeping to the code, you notice above how mention of the LXX corresponds to what I think you were saying about it, because I've seen the Hebrew, original I think, not derived from the LXX as you were talking about on your thread yesterday, and that hebrew seems even more different to John 8:58. You did inspire me to look into what you were saying about this and the Masoretic text, but haven't yet.
And I'm dying to know what messianic prophesies have supposedly, according to one group,
"not been fulfilled". Apollo Illuminist claimed the Messiah would be riding on an ass,and that that hadn't been fulfilled!

jdb, i just wrote you a long,long reply and it disapeared when as usual ,I tried to change something in the preview. usually I can still get it back, but not this time. I will write later. sorry?

TY Anna

Thanks for checking in Anna!

I'm going into mental shut down mode right now, so I need to wrap the day up and work on hitting the rack as soon as possible - will check in tomorrow!!

Peace to you and yours,

You and yours as well! I've just been reminded that I promised to get up at 6 and go somewhere for a lot of the day. I think I might really have to break down and join GLP so I can edit posts at least. some messy posts today. I'll write you again tomorrow,and not too late,i hope!

BELOVEDS BASED ON CONVERSATION ABOVE, JESUS NEVER STARTED ANY RELIGION, NOR DID HE INTEND FOR ONE TO BE STARTED. IN THE BEGINNING HIS TEACHINGS WERE SIMPLY PASSED AROUND TO ALL WHO WOULD LISTEN. THE CHURCH WAS CREATED 300 YEARS OR SO AFTER THE CRUCIFIXION.

HIS MESSAGES WERE FOR ALL, AND OTHER AVATARS CAME TO OTHER CULTURES OVER ABOUT WHAT 1500 YEARS OR SO, AND TAUGHT PRETTY MUCH THE SAME. TO CLAIM YOURSELF A CHRISTIAN, OR A MUSLIM, OR A BUDDHIST OR ANY OTHER RELIGION OR FOR THAT MATTER ANY POLITICAL PARTY ETC, IS TO TAKE AWAY A BIG CHUNCK OF YOU VERY DIVINITY. THE LESSON OF THIS ENDING AGE AND THE NEW ONE BEING BUILT IS TO BECOME TO SOVEREIGN KNOWING RESPONSIBLE FOR SELF SON OF GOD. AND TO THUS DROP ALL OTHER WAYS OF DEFINING SELF BY GROUP MEMBERSHIP.

WHEN THAT HAPPENS, AS MORE AND MORE BECOME ACTUALLY SOVEREIGN GOD CONSCIOUS BEINGS, SO IT WILL HAPPEN, THAT WHERE TO OR MORE ARE GATHERED IN MY NAME, THERE I AM. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN IN CHURCH.

IT HAPPENS WHEN SAY A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE GET CONCERNED ABOUT SAY THE ENVIRONMENT. THESE GOD KNOWING PEOPLE WILL HAVE GREAT IMPACT ON DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT AS THEY GATHER TWO OR MORE IN MY NAME. PONDER IT.

YOU ONES SITTING HERE ARGUING ALL THIS SHIT, AND IT IS SHIT FOR THE MORE PART IN THIS THREAD, ARE GETTING NOTHING DONE FOR IT, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OPERATING IN YOUR GOD SOVEREIGN KNOWING MINDS.

YOUR GOAL IN YOUR INDIVIDUAL SOUL GROWTH IS TO ONE DAY SAY AS YOUR DEFINITION OF SELF: I AM THAT I AM AND NOTHING ELSE. NOT CHRISTIAN, NOT MUSLIM NOT DEMOCRAT, NOT ANY OTHER SUCH DEFINITION THAT DIVIDES YOU FROM YOUR GOD CENTER.

PEOPLE SAY FOR EXAMPLE "I AM A NURSE." BUT IT SHOULD MEAN, I AM THAT I AM, AND I CONTRIBUTE MY SERVICE TO OTHERS TO THIS WORLD THRU NURSING. PONDER THIS.


AS TO THE EXAMPLE OF ENVIRONMENT ABOVE, MANY I AM THAT I AM'S WOULD COME TOGETHER TO DO SOME ABOUT THE POLLUTION AS THEIR SERVICE. THIS WOULD ATTRACT FOLKS WHO KNOW SOME CHEMISTRY, SOME BIOLOGY, AND SO ON AND SO FORTH TO USE THEIR JOINT POWER TO THE GREATER GOOD. THE WOULD WORK COOPERATIVELY TOWARDS THIS GOAL. WORKING COOPERATIVELY TOGETHER OVER ANY ISSUE IS WHAT THE SAYING MEANS, ABOUT COMING TOGETHER TWO OR MORE IN MY NAME.

YOU WHO ARE CHRISTIANS AS NOT COMING TOGETHER TWO OR MORE IN MY NAME, YOU ARE SO HORRIBLY DIVIDED IN FACT, AND THUS NOT WORKING WITH GOD. YOU HAVE NO SENSE OF I AM THAT I AM. YOU ARE ALL I FOLLOW OTHERS WHO ARE JUST AS CONFUSED AS MYSELF AND HAVE LITTLE TRUTH.

I AM PUBLISHING IN ANOTHER THREAD SOME OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE GREAT CHRIST NAMED WALTER RUSSELL. GOOGLE HIM. FOR HE WENT INTO THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS FOR ABOUT 40 DAYS AND DREW OUT WHAT GOD REALLY IS. JESUS WAS NEVER ABLE TO GET AS FAR WITH THE LIMITED MINDS AROUND HIM AT THAT TIME.

JESUS DEMONSTRATED TALKING TO THE FATHER, GOING INTO THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS BY MEDITATION AND YOUR CHURCHES HAVE KEPT THAT AWAY FROM YOU. READ WALTER RUSSELL. MANY OF HIS WORKS HAVE BEEN OCR'D AND PUT INTO PDF FILES ON THE INTERNET. GREAT PLACE TO START WOULD BE SCRIBD.COM

YOU WILL BEGIN TO LEARN HOW TO WORK KNOWINGLY WITH GOD. THIS ARGUING THE BIBLE STUFF WILL NEVER GET YOU THERE, WHICH IS JUST EXACTLY WHAT YOUR "DEVILS" AND ANTICHRISTS WANTED AND IT HAS WORKED WELL.

DO YOU WHO CLAIM THE SUB GOD LEVEL OF CHRISTIAN, KNOW THAT ISLAM IS NOT NEARLY AS DIVIDED AS CHRISTIANITY? PONDER THAT TOO. I HAVE NOT BEEN AROUND ISLAM VERY MUCH, BUT I KNOW OTHERS WHO HAVE AND IF ONE IF GOING TO CHOSE TO FOLLOW SOMETHING, PERHAPS YOU SHOULD GO THERE, BUT THAT IS INFERIOR TOO.


DO YOU WANT TO FOLLOW SOMETHING ALWAYS, OR BECOME ONE WITH GOD? YOUR CHOICE. I AM ONE WITH GOD AND WOULD NEVER GO CHASING AFTER ALL THIS SHIT. I NEVER DID MY ENTIRE LIFE. I NEVER SEARCHED FOR A RELIGION OR A POLITICAL PARTY OR ANYTHING ELSE TO FOLLOW. I AM A SOVEREIGN BEING WHO TAKES CONTROL OF MY OWN LIFE AND MY OWN GROWTH OF MY OWN MIND.

WHEN IT IS SAID THAT GOD KNOWS ALL, OR WHATEVER, IT MEANS THAT ALL IS RECORDED IN THE UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS AND YOU CAN HAVE AND LEARN AND KNOW ALL THAT YOU WISH TO KNOW BY TAPPING INTO IT. JUST AS I DO AND ALWAYS HAVE THIS LIFE. MY MEMORIES OF TAPPING INTO IT SINCE SOME TIME BEFORE I STARTED KINDERGARTEN. YOU TO CAN LEARN THIS. THEN ENDS ALL THE FOLLOWING.

JESUS NEVER SAID TO COME FOLLOW HIM, HE TRIED TO TEACH MAN HOW TO KNOW. AND AGAIN, YOUR DEVIL TYPES ON THIS WORLD VISIBLE DEVIL TYPES HAVE MADE SURE YOU EACH HAVE NOT FOUND THE GOD WITHIN THAT JESUS TAUGHT.

JESUS TAUGHT REINCARNATION, AS WISDOM IS LEARNED, MIND EXPANDED BY THIS METHOD. EACH LIFE YOU ARE TO GROW TO MORE, YET ON THIS WORLD, MAN GOES LIFE TO LIFE ALMOST IN A CIRCLE, INSTEAD OF SPIRALING UPWARDS. IN FACT MANY SPIRAL DOWN. LEARNING NEVER STOPS. NOT EVEN FOR THE HIGHEST OF GOD'S KNOWING SONS. GROW THYSELF AND STOP THE SHIT THAT IS IN THIS THREAD.

FOR YOU BENEFIT I HAVE SUPPLIED SOME TRUTH IN IT OVER THE SILLY TOPICS OF WHO AA MICHAEL WAS FOR EXAMPLE. BUT YOUR TIME WOULD BE BETTER SPENT TO LOOK AT THE PROBLEMS THAT BESET YOUR LIFE AND GROW INTO WISDOM FOR THEM, AND SEEK TO LEARN MEDITATION IF YOU DO NOT DO IT.

IN FACT EVERY TIME ANY OF YOU HAS SAT ALONE PONDERING AN ISSUE OF YOUR LIFE THAT HAS LEAD TO A SOLUTION YOU HAVE USED IT!

THE DEVILS OF THIS WORLD ARE TODAY CAUSING UPSET IN THE MIDDLE EAST AGAIN, AND CHRISTIANS IN THIS COUNTRY OF THE US OF A, ARE BUSY HATING ISLAM AND ITS ALL BE SET UP THAT WAY. NOT STOP THE FOLLOWING IN WHICH YOU ARE LEAD BY YOUR NOSE, AND BECOME SOVEREIGN AND RESEARCH THESE THINGS AND SEE THRU YOUR DEVILS/ANTICHRISTS GAMES.

YOU WILL FIND YOUR SELF FREE WHEN YOU BECOME SOVEREIGN. NO ONE CAN IMPRISON YOUR MIND. YOUR BODY CAN BE TOSSED IN JAIL, BUT NOT YOUR MIND. AND AS MIND FINALLY GROWS ON THIS WORLD, SO SHALL THE CONTROL OF THE BEASTY ONES BY WHATEVER NAME COME TO AN END.

YOU ARE SO DIVIDED, WORKING ON USELESS SHIT, THAT YOU ONES CANNOT FIND YOUR GOD POWER. WHAT A MESS, BUT YOU HAVE ALLOWED OF IT.

Beloved's you cannot id Jesus with Jehovah. Jehovah is not the Father Creator of the Creation. Jehovah IS a PLANET whose people are very highly evolved, in fact the most evolved global evolutionary civilization in Pleiades.

They have a role in babysitting Earth. The planet Jehovah was not the Father of Jesus. Jesus' "Father" of his SOUL, is the same Father of your souls which Jesus taught. Yahweh is not creator either, Yahweh was a powerful person from Pleiades who had a lot of control of earth at one time. Thus this one is not the Father Creator of the Creation.

Now grow into sovereingty and find something better to work on that this shit in this thread, it is shit, it does not serve this planet and her people whatsover. You do not know God. Jesus taught you are a son of god and you don't get it.

If you must search the written material gifted to the planet about God, there are sources way beyond the very limited and corrupted bible. Most of those "gods" by whatever name in the OT were ETs from Pleiades and Orion. The awful teachings are from Orion. Reptilian teachings. and even those have been corrupted. Jesus was "special" of all the avatars gracing this world, because he was the Creator Son. and your devils knew this and knew the power and have worked to destroy Christianity, more than any other religion and religions are never started by avatars. Man starts them and corrupts them. The eastern religions, hinduism, and islam are much better informed and less corrupted than christianity. It is not status of being to announce you are a Christian, By doing do you are announcing you are a follower not of Jesus, but of the deliberate antichrist corruption of any religion on this world. Isn't that getting obvious on glp?

Do you see the muslims here all up in arms between themselves? Or the buddhists? there are more Hindu's here even, do you see the separating with them? Hinduism is one of the most flexible religions in the world and serves many for that reason, even though it has its issues too with truth corrupted down thru the ages, just because of it being passed down thru the ages.


Look here on GLP and see your own corruptions in how you all argue all this shit that keeps you separated. It is the separation that is the issue, not the shit actually. If you all accepted the same "beliefs" whether correct or not, you would not all be attaching each other, because there would be some unity.

ponder these things, please. And go out and do something worthy of God, like figures ways to lesson your own pollution of this world, or become a better parent, or do your job honestly, or, the list is long. And since the Urantia Book is so put down by the unknowing and the shills here, go read Walter Russell. Its far better than the bible.

JDB 'kay I'm not even going to make any excuses. I AM falling asleep right now at an unusually early hour, keep dozing off. I'll write as soon as I can. Don't even say anything back, okay? I've been bad.

Bad? No! Life happens! Don't sweat it - NO STRESS! Write if and when it seems good for you to do so...k?

Please spend some time in this thread, getting a sense of the great Christ, Walter Russell. You may never wish to look at your bible much again. Your bible says God is LIGHT. Russell explains how and how to connect with that light, which I also have done most of this life.

That is an untruth. It was you that called him a shill.

Later in the same thread, you repeated your accusation as fact. Now you again repeat it as fact.

Because you say something and repeat it doesn't make it true.



Admiration to you JDB for the way you have handled this thread, for treating others with respect, and discussing the subject, rather than an individual. It's been an interesting thread.

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Matthew 8:22

Matthew 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

Mark 2:14 As he walked along, he saw Levi son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," Jesus told him, and Levi got up and followed him.

John 1:43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."

John 21:22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

Last Edited by Nine's - IN MEMORIAM on 10/20/2012 07:33 PM

k.
and thank you!

Hello Nine's - as usual, it's always so good to hear from you!

I would be lamentably remiss if I did not confess that I've been influenced by your heart and demeanor!

Thanks for who you are!

Likewise, JDB. If I'd thought of those beautiful words first, I'd have posted them for you. They are returned to you, hopefully with the same heartwarming feeling I got, that you've been given a precious gift you'll always treasure. Thank you.

JDB, this is Anna! I've been baned from GLP! Writing from daughter's phone. May you be blessed.

I am shocked to hear that!

Thank you for the discourse and your consideration Anna! I will pray you are filled with His joy!

Praise The Most High God!

To be TRULY filled with HIS JOY, she must learn to meditate. Please all of you consider reading this short discourse of an old speech given in 1946 by Walter Russell. Man is to become COSMIC man and not arguing over religious BS man. Time to GROW UPWARDS, this is an easy read. and they ban I phones all the time. nothing new. And ask why your churches are NOT teaching Walter Russell, a GREAT CHRIST who came this past century to illume men to the cosmic age. This is about 14 pages long or so.

[link to abundanthope.net]

"Man is ever searching for his divine Self and in thus searching he will some day find his Self and God as ONE."

"When we use the term SELF as applied to man, we mean the divine spark of God- awareness which severs the physical body from the cosmic Light of Mind. The discovery of one's Self, therefore, means the discovery of one's divinity which unites man with God."

Last Edited by God Loves ALL on 10/22/2012 02:42 PM

This is a complete LIE, God's mind resides within YOUR MIND and even Jesus is not YOUR mediator. Timothy is wrong. Nobody can ransome anything for you. timothy is full of lies by the thugs. worst book in the ible almost, used heavily by the evangelicals.

You have a direct connection to God the Father.

Last Edited by God Loves ALL on 10/23/2012 02:48 PM

Timothy did not write that letter; it was written to Timothy by Paul.

To say Jesus is not our mediator is to completely reject the Bible and Christianity, so I'm not sure what your interest is in a thread between a Christian and a JW.