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A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy

 
Troubled Waters...

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10/19/2012 12:59 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Excellent thread op!

hf

cool013
DUST TO GLORY!!!
Keep2theCode (OP)

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10/19/2012 01:02 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Excellent thread op!

hf

cool013
 Quoting: Troubled Waters...


Thank you!!

You're a hugs and blessings machine today, aren't ya?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
waterman

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10/19/2012 04:30 PM

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel. THINK. WHO recognizes Jesus? Many just assume that the people who believe in Jesus are all gentiles....nope. God made the Israelites deaf and blind to who they really are. God is the one who moves people across borders. Out of all the time in the world, three lands opened up for migration "recently" - the USA, Canada and Australia. God said that once again His people would be placed in ships and lead away....

JerUSAlem.

Names are everything.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20241035


Paul said that those who are in Christ are "a new creation", "neither Jew nor Gentile". So of course we come from both groups, but we become a third group. The purpose of including Gentiles, as Paul said, was to provoke Israel to jealousy, so that they might be saved.

So again, since we have no covenant relationship with God as nations, along with what Paul taught about a new creation, I see no part of the US in Bible prophecy.

And of course, the name Jerusalem is from two Hebrew words and would hardly have been a reference to the initials (in English) of a country never referenced in any other way.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Judah is still asleep to Jesus being the Messiah. We as gentiles are grafted in to provoke Israel(Judah) to jealousy but that won't happen until the jews moshiach they are waiting for appears. If you study messiah ben Joseph and messiah ben David and the Dead sea scrolls you will know ezekiel 37 is talking about the two witnesses and messiah ben david is that one that will join the northern and southern kingdom once again:15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore

Last Edited by waterman on 10/19/2012 04:31 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2012 04:33 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
I'll have to think about it for a bit before replying, I'm in the middle of painting my house actually, and was just on a short break when I saw your thread.

I could offer offhand that your views and my views are perhaps very different, but I bet in the end we'd have more in common than not.
 Quoting: !saac


Works for me! And I pray that your health will continue to be good.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


After some thought, I'm going to say that I don't believe in most of what you are saying, no offense. I don't think the " rapture " is so much a physical event as it is an allegorical one, if anything at all. So, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree for now and see how things play out.

And thanks for the kind words.
 Quoting: !saac


Alrighty then. The thread on how to be saved will be there if you change your mind. And you're very welcome.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Just curious how you've come to the decision that I'm not " saved " as you call it ?
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Judah is still asleep to Jesus being the Messiah. We as gentiles are grafted in to provoke Israel(Judah) to jealousy but that won't happen until the jews moshiach they are waiting for appears. If you study messiah ben Joseph and messiah ben David and the Dead sea scrolls you will know ezekiel 37 is talking about the two witnesses and messiah ben david is that one that will join the northern and southern kingdom once again:...
 Quoting: waterman


I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to present in light of the quotes you're responding to. It seems that other AC had argued that Christians are really the 10 lost tribes, and I replied that we are a third entity that is neither Jew nor Gentile. The passage you mentioned is indeed about Israel, and how they won't accept Jesus as Messiah until they see Him and "mourn as for an only son". This is, IMHO, well after the church age has ended, and thus not related to the point I was discussing with the other AC.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy

Just curious how you've come to the decision that I'm not " saved " as you call it ?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I wasn't sure, as I said earlier ("something I can't know"). But I am wondering if you could maybe clarify that now? I noticed you put "saved" in quotes, which I'd think someone who was wouldn't do.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy

Just curious how you've come to the decision that I'm not " saved " as you call it ?
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I wasn't sure, as I said earlier ("something I can't know"). But I am wondering if you could maybe clarify that now? I noticed you put "saved" in quotes, which I'd think someone who was wouldn't do.
 Quoting: !saac


Because like any topic regarding Christian beliefs, I get almost completely different answers from every single person when asked to define something, that's why I use quotes.

I've been watching Christians debate about what being " saved " means, on a Christian chat site for a little while now, so, from my point of view, since they as a group can't even agree on what it is they really believe in, in a way that would allow an easy explanation, of a quantifiable process, then I refuse to believe anybody who may be, more then slightly probabilistically preaching what's called ' false doctrine ".

After all, if they all have different definitions of something, then it only follows that many are not correct.

So why would I accept your definition of what being saved is, verses somebody else's definition, when all parties with all views, all claim to have some sort of sacrosanct interpretation of god's mind ?

Logically this means that I can take the route of not believing, and being screwed, apparently, or take the route of believing somebody , like you for example, for what they claim is the truth I need to listen to, but there's a high probability that you are wrong, and teaching me false doctrine, without malicious intent I might add, but false doctrine all the same.

This is like setting me up to win a prize by telling me that if I can pick a stone out of a hat, and provided it is a white stone, I win a pony, except you don't mention that all the other stones are black except one.

My chances of winning a pony at all are only infinitesimally better by playing your game as opposed to not, so why should I play at all ?

Do you understand what I'm asking you ?

Why you think your version of things has more gravitas then the next person I ask ?

Thanks
waterman

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10/19/2012 05:08 PM

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Judah is still asleep to Jesus being the Messiah. We as gentiles are grafted in to provoke Israel(Judah) to jealousy but that won't happen until the jews moshiach they are waiting for appears. If you study messiah ben Joseph and messiah ben David and the Dead sea scrolls you will know ezekiel 37 is talking about the two witnesses and messiah ben david is that one that will join the northern and southern kingdom once again:...
 Quoting: waterman


I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to present in light of the quotes you're responding to. It seems that other AC had argued that Christians are really the 10 lost tribes, and I replied that we are a third entity that is neither Jew nor Gentile. The passage you mentioned is indeed about Israel, and how they won't accept Jesus as Messiah until they see Him and "mourn as for an only son". This is, IMHO, well after the church age has ended, and thus not related to the point I was discussing with the other AC.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. I'm presenting that ezekiel 37 isn't talking about Jesus but an end time David type that will be the prince of Israel and this is who the jews are waiting for and until he comes the two houses of israel the lost 10 tribes and judah will remain seperated. This david type will explain the salvation through Jesus Christ and teach the people righteousness. The jews will listen to him because he will be annointed by God and then both jew and gentile will become the new creature paul talks about.
Heed the warning or endure the mourning
Klink
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
No pretrib rapture found in the bible, no tribulation of 7 or 3.5 years.

Most of the events have already been fulfilled at 2000 years from the cross.
waterman

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10/19/2012 05:24 PM

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
I believe the two end-time witnesses of Revelation will be who the jews know as Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David.

The purpose of these two individuals is to first messiah ben Joseph gathers the lost 10 tribes and then messiah ben David re-unites both houses of Isreal once again

Messiah ben Joseph is the suffering servant and a forerunner to and Messiah ben David (the conquering king.)
Many christians claim Jesus is both Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David(first He came as Messiah ben Joseph(suffering servant) then He will return as Messiah ben David(conquering king.) Jesus wasn't from the tribe of Ephraim, which is what "ben Joseph" means and was a tribe in Northern Israel(Lost 10 tribes). Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the atonement for sin but the Messiah ben Joseph being talked about is one that gathers the lost 10 tribes and brings them to Jerusalem and is a warrior and is killed at the east gate in jerusalem by armilus(this never happened to Jesus)

Most people can only associate the word "messiah" with Jesus but "messiah" simply means "annointed one" A messiah is a savior or liberator of a people in the Jewish, Christian, Islamic or other religions.

In the Hebrew Bible a messiah (or mashiach) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil and we know from Zechariah 4:14

the two witnesses of Revelation are the two "annointed ones" spoken of here in Zechariah

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by him John 14:6(there is no salvation but by Jesus Christ, only by believing by faith that Jesus died on the cross for the atonement for you sins are you saved)

This Chapter In Ezekiel shows Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph(Joseph gathers and David unites the two sticks or houses of Israel back to one house)

Ezekeil 37 paraphrased:
1 God takes "son of man" to valley of dry bones

2.God tells "son of man" these dry bones are Israel

3.God tells "son of man to take "two sticks" one for Judah and one for Joseph and combine the two sticks which represent two houses of Israel that separated during the time of solomon.

4.God will gather the children of Israel from among the heathen and bring them into their own land

5.God will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations,neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all(This has to be an endtime event because the Northern kingdom, lost 10 tribes hasn't came back yet.)

6.And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes,
and do them.

7.And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.(How long is forever?)

Paraphrase of what messiah ben Joseph does: Regathers the lost 10 tribes and rebuilds the temple and is killed at the east gate by armilus

Paraphrase of what messiah ben David does: resurrects messiah ben joseph(they are the two witnesses of revelation), Re-unites the two houses Of Israel (Northern kingdom with the southern kingdom), and becomes the prince as mentioned in Ezekiel 37:7 This man will feed the people during the spiritual famine that will be in the land: Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD...just as Joseph provided physical food for the famine in Egypt this man will provide spiritual food during this spiritual famine and because he can interpret the plan he will be awarded with being 2nd in command under Jesus.

What is the purpose of Mashiach? The Mashiachis an individual who is responsible for, and who, either overtly, or covertly, spearheads a collective process of tikkun. Tikkunis perhaps the single most important concept in all of Judaism The word tikkunmeans ‘rectification’ or ‘mending.’ In the Kabbalah, tikkunalso refers to a process of ‘elevation’ and ‘transformation.’ Whereas thesecond definition implies taking something that is already complete into a more refined state, the first definition implies that something has broken, or become torn, and the immediate goal is only to return it to its original state of completion.These are the processes, or modes, of tikkun.The one who performs that act of restoration is said to be its redeemer (goel ),which is another quality and name for messiah Therefore, the Messiah is simply the one who is responsible for the restoration—the tikkun—and the redemption of creation.”

Origin and Sources of the messiah ben Joseph Tradition

Scholars and theologians have been unsuccessful in determining the origin of the Messiah ben joseph tradition. Without knowing where or from whom the tradition originated, one can only make a vain attempt to explain the ambiguities relating to the tradition. Coming to a full understanding of the MBJ tradition is difficult considering the fact that every rabbi and scholar have expressed different ideas or theories surrounding it. I have included a brief summary of the earliest known sources of the MBJ tradition which may be helpful. The Messiah ben joseph traditions are found in at least four sources: (1) The Talmud, which is a collection of rabbinical discussions pertaining to Jewish law, custom, and history. The discussions of the rabbis were kept orally for several centuries and were eventually recorded around AD 200.[3] (2) The Targumim, which are Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Bible compiled in Babylon or Israel during the Second Temple Period (537–20 BC). (3) Kabbalistic writings, which contain Jewish mystical traditions regarding the creation of the earth and other ideas concerning God and spirituality. (4) The apocryphal and pseudepigraphical writings, which are religious and extrabiblical texts resembling books of scripture. These texts were not included with the other canonical books and date from around 300 BC to AD 100.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Armilus is "a king who will arise at the end of time against the Messiah ben joseph, and will be conquered by him after having brought much distress upon Israel", similar to Gog. He is spoken of in both Midrash Vayosha and Sefer Zerubbabel, in which he defeats the Messiah ben Joseph. The Messiah ben David comes and raises messiah ben joseph from the dead and the ministry of the two witnesses(messiah ben joseph, messiah ben david) shortly begins
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Anonymous Coward
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
America was the land of milk and honey but we have turned it into the land of Egypt(full of idols) and turned away from God. God will bring judgement and will destroy all the idols and take his people through the furnace of affliction into the desert and into slavery just as deuteronomy says will happen under the curses that happen to the children of God when they turn away from Him. If you can see it basically it is the same thing that happened during the time of moses an aaron...and again God will raise up a deliverer like moses to lead the people and teach them righteosness and send an aaron with him, or the two witnesses of revelation and the joshua and zerubabble type of zechariah. This moses type will feed the people during the 7 year tribulation spiritually just as Joseph fed the people physically because he knew what the dream or plan was. This aaron type is the Elijah to come and the Moses type is the greater of the two witnesses.
 Quoting: waterman


America will indeed be judged... as will the rest of the world. But America never had a covenant with God; only Israel as a nation has ever had that. God's only other covenant is with individual believers, not nations. So he may well send people to warn America, just as he might send them to the UK or Australia or anyplace else. The blessings the western world has enjoyed are, IMHO, due to the "salty" influence of the believers wherever they were, and now the "salt has lost its savor" so we see all this doom and evil. I honestly don't see any specific, unique, covenant relationship between God and America.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode
bsflag

Israel refers to a people not a fake state that was stolen from the true Israelites.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Because like any topic regarding Christian beliefs, I get almost completely different answers from every single person when asked to define something, that's why I use quotes.

I've been watching Christians debate about what being " saved " means, on a Christian chat site for a little while now, so, from my point of view, since they as a group can't even agree on what it is they really believe in, in a way that would allow an easy explanation, of a quantifiable process, then I refuse to believe anybody who may be, more then slightly probabilistically preaching what's called ' false doctrine ".

After all, if they all have different definitions of something, then it only follows that many are not correct.

So why would I accept your definition of what being saved is, verses somebody else's definition, when all parties with all views, all claim to have some sort of sacrosanct interpretation of god's mind ?

Logically this means that I can take the route of not believing, and being screwed, apparently, or take the route of believing somebody , like you for example, for what they claim is the truth I need to listen to, but there's a high probability that you are wrong, and teaching me false doctrine, without malicious intent I might add, but false doctrine all the same.

This is like setting me up to win a prize by telling me that if I can pick a stone out of a hat, and provided it is a white stone, I win a pony, except you don't mention that all the other stones are black except one.

My chances of winning a pony at all are only infinitesimally better by playing your game as opposed to not, so why should I play at all ?

Do you understand what I'm asking you ?

Why you think your version of things has more gravitas then the next person I ask ?

Thanks
 Quoting: !saac


On the most basic level, all anyone can ever tell you is what makes the most sense to them. We all approach life with a "given", an epistemology, an arbitrary set of principles through which everything else in life is filtered. So what may convince one person won't convince another, unless they share some foundational assumptions about how to make sense of the world.

For me, that foundation stems from observation, logic, and Ockham's Razor: I see the universe, deduce what can and cannot be true about it, and form a theory about it which is as simple as it can be. I also rely, as we all do to some extent, upon the opinions and studies of others regarded as having expertise in various disciplines.

On that basis, I have concluded that the universe is physical, ordered, and complex, yet also decaying ("experiencing increasing entropy"). This tells me that it is not infinitely old. Philosophy/logic tells me that it cannot have created itself; not even an eternal entity could do that. So something beyond the physical had to be the source or cause of the physical, and this First Cause must be eternal and infinite. From there the problem is how we could possibly know details about this First Cause, but I presuppose that such a Cause, being intelligent and powerful, would make its presence known to us.

When Jesus came, he fulfilled many prophecies found in the Bible and performed many miracles in the presence of witnesses, both friendly and hostile. He was killed as he and the scriptures had foretold, and rose again physically as both foretold. Then the question is whether the gospel accounts are reliable, and this too I believe has been satisfactorily established.

So the Bible is where I get my understanding of salvation, and of the God (First Cause) who has offered us a choice between eternity with him or with his adversary Satan. (I'm skipping a lot here, I know, but trying to stay on point.) Jesus and those who were close to him have written that we must believe certain things to be "saved", that is, to spend eternity with God.

It is thus my studied opinion that salvation consists of the following:
-- To believe that Jesus is God in the flesh who died for us and rose again, and will return again as he promised
-- To accept that there is no other way to be reconciled to God but by faith in Jesus alone
-- To trust Jesus for the purpose of spending eternity with God, not simply to escape hell; this is a reconciliation, a relationship, and people have to accept it willingly and knowledgeably for it to be genuine

So to be saved, a person must want to spend eternity with God, and trust only in the Jesus who rose from the dead. It's that simple.

What follows, of course, is important but not to be confused with salvation itself. If we truly reconciled with God, we won't ignore him or do things that grieve him. God is love, and all who claim to be his adopted children must love him and people.

I realize that many will insist that you work for what the Bible calls a gift, or who demand that you "speak in tongues" and/or are baptized in water. But I don't think anyone can successfully argue from scripture (or common sense for that matter) that a relationship can ever depend upon work or signs or rites.

This is my personal conviction, and all I can ever do is present it and pray that whoever hears it will consider its merit. Whatever a person tells you about salvation, look also at the spirit they display, the evidence of a relationship with the Jesus who "died for us while we were still sinners".
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Israel refers to a people not a fake state that was stolen from the true Israelites.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 281165


So it's BS if it disagrees with your opinion? And you can just declare your view right, without any attempt at citing evidence or anything?

Okay, if nothing is what you bring to the table, then nothing is what I'll respond with.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Israel refers to a people not a fake state that was stolen from the true Israelites.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 281165


So it's BS if it disagrees with your opinion? And you can just declare your view right, without any attempt at citing evidence or anything?

Okay, if nothing is what you bring to the table, then nothing is what I'll respond with.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


He is right!
Jacob's seed in spirit is Israel.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Because like any topic regarding Christian beliefs, I get almost completely different answers from every single person when asked to define something, that's why I use quotes.

I've been watching Christians debate about what being " saved " means, on a Christian chat site for a little while now, so, from my point of view, since they as a group can't even agree on what it is they really believe in, in a way that would allow an easy explanation, of a quantifiable process, then I refuse to believe anybody who may be, more then slightly probabilistically preaching what's called ' false doctrine ".

After all, if they all have different definitions of something, then it only follows that many are not correct.

So why would I accept your definition of what being saved is, verses somebody else's definition, when all parties with all views, all claim to have some sort of sacrosanct interpretation of god's mind ?

Logically this means that I can take the route of not believing, and being screwed, apparently, or take the route of believing somebody , like you for example, for what they claim is the truth I need to listen to, but there's a high probability that you are wrong, and teaching me false doctrine, without malicious intent I might add, but false doctrine all the same.

This is like setting me up to win a prize by telling me that if I can pick a stone out of a hat, and provided it is a white stone, I win a pony, except you don't mention that all the other stones are black except one.

My chances of winning a pony at all are only infinitesimally better by playing your game as opposed to not, so why should I play at all ?

Do you understand what I'm asking you ?

Why you think your version of things has more gravitas then the next person I ask ?

Thanks
 Quoting: !saac


On the most basic level, all anyone can ever tell you is what makes the most sense to them. We all approach life with a "given", an epistemology, an arbitrary set of principles through which everything else in life is filtered. So what may convince one person won't convince another, unless they share some foundational assumptions about how to make sense of the world.

For me, that foundation stems from observation, logic, and Ockham's Razor: I see the universe, deduce what can and cannot be true about it, and form a theory about it which is as simple as it can be. I also rely, as we all do to some extent, upon the opinions and studies of others regarded as having expertise in various disciplines.

On that basis, I have concluded that the universe is physical, ordered, and complex, yet also decaying ("experiencing increasing entropy"). This tells me that it is not infinitely old. Philosophy/logic tells me that it cannot have created itself; not even an eternal entity could do that. So something beyond the physical had to be the source or cause of the physical, and this First Cause must be eternal and infinite. From there the problem is how we could possibly know details about this First Cause, but I presuppose that such a Cause, being intelligent and powerful, would make its presence known to us.

When Jesus came, he fulfilled many prophecies found in the Bible and performed many miracles in the presence of witnesses, both friendly and hostile. He was killed as he and the scriptures had foretold, and rose again physically as both foretold. Then the question is whether the gospel accounts are reliable, and this too I believe has been satisfactorily established.

So the Bible is where I get my understanding of salvation, and of the God (First Cause) who has offered us a choice between eternity with him or with his adversary Satan. (I'm skipping a lot here, I know, but trying to stay on point.) Jesus and those who were close to him have written that we must believe certain things to be "saved", that is, to spend eternity with God.

It is thus my studied opinion that salvation consists of the following:
-- To believe that Jesus is God in the flesh who died for us and rose again, and will return again as he promised
-- To accept that there is no other way to be reconciled to God but by faith in Jesus alone
-- To trust Jesus for the purpose of spending eternity with God, not simply to escape hell; this is a reconciliation, a relationship, and people have to accept it willingly and knowledgeably for it to be genuine

So to be saved, a person must want to spend eternity with God, and trust only in the Jesus who rose from the dead. It's that simple.

What follows, of course, is important but not to be confused with salvation itself. If we truly reconciled with God, we won't ignore him or do things that grieve him. God is love, and all who claim to be his adopted children must love him and people.

I realize that many will insist that you work for what the Bible calls a gift, or who demand that you "speak in tongues" and/or are baptized in water. But I don't think anyone can successfully argue from scripture (or common sense for that matter) that a relationship can ever depend upon work or signs or rites.

This is my personal conviction, and all I can ever do is present it and pray that whoever hears it will consider its merit. Whatever a person tells you about salvation, look also at the spirit they display, the evidence of a relationship with the Jesus who "died for us while we were still sinners".
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


Well-thought out answers, thank you.

See, it's very confusing for a lot of us.

I've gotten so many different answers from folks, I lost count of how many people told me that what they believed in was infallible.

It's like, I don't question the faith people have, because I know that's very real, I question what exactly it is that people think they have faith in, which I see as two separate things, but they usually get very angry with me, so I thank you again for taking the time to answer thoughtfully.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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10/19/2012 06:05 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Well-thought out answers, thank you.

See, it's very confusing for a lot of us.

I've gotten so many different answers from folks, I lost count of how many people told me that what they believed in was infallible.

It's like, I don't question the faith people have, because I know that's very real, I question what exactly it is that people think they have faith in, which I see as two separate things, but they usually get very angry with me, so I thank you again for taking the time to answer thoughtfully.
 Quoting: !saac


You're most welcome.

I think part of the problem with so many Christians giving conflicting signals is the absolutely horrible training they get. I can say from many decades of experience that "Sunday School" is not any kind of school; nobody ever graduates. They should call it "Sunday Group Therapy" or something. Any warm body who can read or run a video can be a "teacher". Anybody who dares to think outside the box is "reported" in one way or another and the pressure is on. Nobody wants that to happen to them, so they keep quiet. So they go through "quarterly" after quarterly, lesson after lesson, and never make an inch of progress.

The "pastors"? They go through the indoctrination centers known as seminaries, who turn out the products the benefactors have ordered. Control a few seminaries and you steer the entire Christian community. And I suspect that one of the required courses is "How to make a Good Living through Guilt Trip Sermons". So many of them are little gods and kings, wearing gold cuff links and Rolex watches. Of course many are not like this, but they are CEOs nonetheless and call the shots. And you have to know what that kind of power does to people.

People just don't want to do the hard work of thinking for themselves. I know, anti-theists believe all theists are guilty of this, but we have no corner on that market. Atheists can be the most vicious and intolerant of anyone who doesn't march lock-step with them. But if Christians could be convinced to throw away the programs and pre-chewed food as I call it, and just focus on those bare essentials of relationship, I think we really could change the world.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2012 06:22 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Here's a short digest of how I view it playing out:

Armilus (the Jewish antichrist) is the Pope. Messiah Ben Joseph is Prince William. Messiah Ben David is the Christian antichrist, Prince Harry (gematria 1666). To replicate Zerubbabel (Zechariah 4), who is the prophet of Jesus, the 2 antichrists' prophets will be Muslim.

Messiah Ben Joseph, as per prophecy, defeats Armilus. Prince William makes the covenant that starts the 3rd Temple on 4-29-16, the last day of Passover. The "last" Pope having taken power on 12-21-12 is enraged that someone is claiming that he is not God and starts a war with Christians and Jews aligned with this "Ben Joseph". The Pope dies on 6-4-16 (the 1260th day from 12-22-12)and the Trumpet 6 war ends on the 1335th day of 8-18-16.

When the events of 12-21-12 disrupt the world economy, there will be 5 months of dislocation that send ungodly people into despair over their ruin (Trumpet 5). Then 5 months later the 1st round false prophet (Armilus/ Pope's prophet - a decoy antichrist and false prophet team if you will) takes power in the US (making ungodly people happy they have some sort of govt). 5-21-13 (5 months later 12-21) plus 1260 days is 11-1-16, the 1st Tues of Nov. election day. In other words, the end times have been constructed to enable the following President to have fulfilled prophecy, defeating the antichrist. The "blessed" 1335th day is 1-16-17, the inauguration day of this "holy" President. People will "vote out" the "evil President dictator" and put in the new "holy President" (a very bad person also).

After the Trumpet 6 war (6-4-16 through 8-18-16), the 3rd Temple is started on 12-24-16, when Hanukah lands on Christmas (Trumpet 7). It takes 2300 days to sanctify the new temple (Dan 8:14). 2300 days after 12-24-16 is 4-29-23, the last day of Passover and 7 solar years after 4-29-16. 7 lunar years, 2520 days prior to 4-29-23 is 6-4-16, which is itself 1260 days from 12-22-12.

Per prophecy, Ben David resurrects the dead Ben Joseph (Prince Harry "downloads" William's "soul" into a robot, IMO).

The rapture takes place 9 months after 12-24-16 on Rosh Hashanah 9-23-17 (this is the "birth pangs of Messiah"). Watch this video for a great explanation of this date. [link to www.youtube.com]

All in all, this is a 10 year tribulation from 5-21-13 through 4-29-23 (Rev 2:10). If 4-29-23 is the 1260th day, then 5-28-23 is the 1290th day which is Pentecost. The Jewish Pentecost is 5-31-23 sundown (Jesus breaking the covenant in the middle of the week of the literal 70th week). And the end of the last, 70th week would be 6-3-23, which is 7 solar years after 6-4-16, the Trumpet 6 war.
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2012 06:26 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Well-thought out answers, thank you.

See, it's very confusing for a lot of us.

I've gotten so many different answers from folks, I lost count of how many people told me that what they believed in was infallible.

It's like, I don't question the faith people have, because I know that's very real, I question what exactly it is that people think they have faith in, which I see as two separate things, but they usually get very angry with me, so I thank you again for taking the time to answer thoughtfully.
 Quoting: !saac


You're most welcome.

I think part of the problem with so many Christians giving conflicting signals is the absolutely horrible training they get. I can say from many decades of experience that "Sunday School" is not any kind of school; nobody ever graduates. They should call it "Sunday Group Therapy" or something. Any warm body who can read or run a video can be a "teacher". Anybody who dares to think outside the box is "reported" in one way or another and the pressure is on. Nobody wants that to happen to them, so they keep quiet. So they go through "quarterly" after quarterly, lesson after lesson, and never make an inch of progress.

The "pastors"? They go through the indoctrination centers known as seminaries, who turn out the products the benefactors have ordered. Control a few seminaries and you steer the entire Christian community. And I suspect that one of the required courses is "How to make a Good Living through Guilt Trip Sermons". So many of them are little gods and kings, wearing gold cuff links and Rolex watches. Of course many are not like this, but they are CEOs nonetheless and call the shots. And you have to know what that kind of power does to people.

People just don't want to do the hard work of thinking for themselves. I know, anti-theists believe all theists are guilty of this, but we have no corner on that market. Atheists can be the most vicious and intolerant of anyone who doesn't march lock-step with them. But if Christians could be convinced to throw away the programs and pre-chewed food as I call it, and just focus on those bare essentials of relationship, I think we really could change the world.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


True, it would help Christians greatly were that to happen.

I've spoken with 60-70 year old people in Christian chat that still don't know what they believe, or what to believe, and this is very troubling for them. They've been confused about things like masturbation, for example, their entire lives, to the point they're still asking for answers because they just don't know what to believe any more.

What's right VS wrong, etc.

It's troubling to think that somebody who is that age is still having issues about such things, maybe it's just me.

The thing that I saw, in respect to being " saved ", was that some people looked at it as a singular event, and once you were saved, it was a done deal, then some looked at it like a continual process, which isn't so much being saved as it is seeking salvation, as " saved " implies something that has happened, and seeking salvation is a life-long process, at least for some.

To me, it's a continual process in life, of seeking salvation, it's like striving for perfection, you can't ever be perfected, but you can always strive for perfection.

The more we stumble and fall, the more we understand truly what it means to rise again.

I just couldn't ever consider myself to have been " saved ", I prefer to see it as " seeking salvation ", through repentance.
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2012 06:27 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Here's a short digest of how I view it playing out:

Armilus (the Jewish antichrist) is the Pope. Messiah Ben Joseph is Prince William. Messiah Ben David is the Christian antichrist, Prince Harry (gematria 1666). To replicate Zerubbabel (Zechariah 4), who is the prophet of Jesus, the 2 antichrists' prophets will be Muslim.

Messiah Ben Joseph, as per prophecy, defeats Armilus. Prince William makes the covenant that starts the 3rd Temple on 4-29-16, the last day of Passover. The "last" Pope having taken power on 12-21-12 is enraged that someone is claiming that he is not God and starts a war with Christians and Jews aligned with this "Ben Joseph". The Pope dies on 6-4-16 (the 1260th day from 12-22-12)and the Trumpet 6 war ends on the 1335th day of 8-18-16.

When the events of 12-21-12 disrupt the world economy, there will be 5 months of dislocation that send ungodly people into despair over their ruin (Trumpet 5). Then 5 months later the 1st round false prophet (Armilus/ Pope's prophet - a decoy antichrist and false prophet team if you will) takes power in the US (making ungodly people happy they have some sort of govt). 5-21-13 (5 months later 12-21) plus 1260 days is 11-1-16, the 1st Tues of Nov. election day. In other words, the end times have been constructed to enable the following President to have fulfilled prophecy, defeating the antichrist. The "blessed" 1335th day is 1-16-17, the inauguration day of this "holy" President. People will "vote out" the "evil President dictator" and put in the new "holy President" (a very bad person also).

After the Trumpet 6 war (6-4-16 through 8-18-16), the 3rd Temple is started on 12-24-16, when Hanukah lands on Christmas (Trumpet 7). It takes 2300 days to sanctify the new temple (Dan 8:14). 2300 days after 12-24-16 is 4-29-23, the last day of Passover and 7 solar years after 4-29-16. 7 lunar years, 2520 days prior to 4-29-23 is 6-4-16, which is itself 1260 days from 12-22-12.

Per prophecy, Ben David resurrects the dead Ben Joseph (Prince Harry "downloads" William's "soul" into a robot, IMO).

The rapture takes place 9 months after 12-24-16 on Rosh Hashanah 9-23-17 (this is the "birth pangs of Messiah"). Watch this video for a great explanation of this date. [link to www.youtube.com]

All in all, this is a 10 year tribulation from 5-21-13 through 4-29-23 (Rev 2:10). If 4-29-23 is the 1260th day, then 5-28-23 is the 1290th day which is Pentecost. The Jewish Pentecost is 5-31-23 sundown (Jesus breaking the covenant in the middle of the week of the literal 70th week). And the end of the last, 70th week would be 6-3-23, which is 7 solar years after 6-4-16, the Trumpet 6 war.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 16545463


what a mess up.

Days are for years!
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2012 06:31 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
I can say from many decades of experience that "Sunday School" is not any kind of school; nobody ever graduates. They should call it "Sunday Group Therapy" or something. Any warm body who can read or run a video can be a "teacher". Anybody who dares to think outside the box is "reported" in one way or another and the pressure is on. Nobody wants that to happen to them, so they keep quiet. So they go through "quarterly" after quarterly, lesson after lesson, and never make an inch of progress.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


applause

Exquisite. For the record, this is exactly the kind of stuff I've been citing on all these christian threads. We've largely been spoon fed the rote regurgitation of the status quo based on the accumulated traditions of men.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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10/19/2012 06:41 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
True, it would help Christians greatly were that to happen.

I've spoken with 60-70 year old people in Christian chat that still don't know what they believe, or what to believe, and this is very troubling for them. They've been confused about things like masturbation, for example, their entire lives, to the point they're still asking for answers because they just don't know what to believe any more.

What's right VS wrong, etc.

It's troubling to think that somebody who is that age is still having issues about such things, maybe it's just me.

The thing that I saw, in respect to being " saved ", was that some people looked at it as a singular event, and once you were saved, it was a done deal, then some looked at it like a continual process, which isn't so much being saved as it is seeking salvation, as " saved " implies something that has happened, and seeking salvation is a life-long process, at least for some.

To me, it's a continual process in life, of seeking salvation, it's like striving for perfection, you can't ever be perfected, but you can always strive for perfection.

The more we stumble and fall, the more we understand truly what it means to rise again.

I just couldn't ever consider myself to have been " saved ", I prefer to see it as " seeking salvation ", through repentance.
 Quoting: !saac


That's really sad, about the older people not knowing. I still remember the time I joined a new church and the Seniors class was being taught by a guy about my age at the time (30s). That was just wrong on so many levels.

Re. saved or being saved, I think the scriptures are clear that salvation itself is rebirth, and birth is not a process but a singular event at a point in time. The process that follows is growth, and this is what a Christian should do for the rest of their life. The apostle John said that he wrote what he did "so that you may know that you have eternal life". Paul wrote that the Holy Spirit is "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance". We are either children of God or we are not; we can't be sort-of or in-process children. What Jesus did, he did "once for all", and "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". John also writes that "the one who believes is not condemned". These all point to a singular event rather than a process.

I like to think that when people get engaged, they know the person they intend to marry, and the marriage itself happens at a point in time. But after that comes a life together, and any long-term married couples will tell you that they know each other far better now than they did when they got married. So it is with salvation; we have to know Who we're joining to, but that knowledge will increase with the passage of time.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

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10/19/2012 06:48 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
I can say from many decades of experience that "Sunday School" is not any kind of school; nobody ever graduates. They should call it "Sunday Group Therapy" or something. Any warm body who can read or run a video can be a "teacher". Anybody who dares to think outside the box is "reported" in one way or another and the pressure is on. Nobody wants that to happen to them, so they keep quiet. So they go through "quarterly" after quarterly, lesson after lesson, and never make an inch of progress.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


applause

Exquisite. For the record, this is exactly the kind of stuff I've been citing on all these christian threads. We've largely been spoon fed the rote regurgitation of the status quo based on the accumulated traditions of men.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 8788578


Thanks!

Exactly, it's spoon feeding. And people like it that way. It's familiar, easy, and makes them feel like they've done their religious duty. At least they're "assembling together", and Sunday School allows a lot more interaction than "services". Those services, which is all a lot of church members go to, are not "assembling together" at all. They sit and stand on cue, singing to the back of the head of the person in the pew in front of them, and only getting maybe 30 seconds to actually interact in "meet and greet". It's theater seating and entertainment for the most part.

Worse, it's psychological conditioning, and even most pastors are completely unaware of it. In my experience, the first song was always lively and happy; the second pretty much the same. Then there were announcements and a prayer. Then more songs, but slower and more subdued. Then a reading or "special music", and the people are primed and highly suggestible to whatever the speaker thunders to them. Then a loooooooong prayer and 84 verses of "Just As I Am", and finally a lively tune so people snap out of it before returning home.

By the grace of God, I escaped.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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10/19/2012 06:53 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
True, it would help Christians greatly were that to happen.

I've spoken with 60-70 year old people in Christian chat that still don't know what they believe, or what to believe, and this is very troubling for them. They've been confused about things like masturbation, for example, their entire lives, to the point they're still asking for answers because they just don't know what to believe any more.

What's right VS wrong, etc.

It's troubling to think that somebody who is that age is still having issues about such things, maybe it's just me.

The thing that I saw, in respect to being " saved ", was that some people looked at it as a singular event, and once you were saved, it was a done deal, then some looked at it like a continual process, which isn't so much being saved as it is seeking salvation, as " saved " implies something that has happened, and seeking salvation is a life-long process, at least for some.

To me, it's a continual process in life, of seeking salvation, it's like striving for perfection, you can't ever be perfected, but you can always strive for perfection.

The more we stumble and fall, the more we understand truly what it means to rise again.

I just couldn't ever consider myself to have been " saved ", I prefer to see it as " seeking salvation ", through repentance.
 Quoting: !saac


That's really sad, about the older people not knowing. I still remember the time I joined a new church and the Seniors class was being taught by a guy about my age at the time (30s). That was just wrong on so many levels.

Re. saved or being saved, I think the scriptures are clear that salvation itself is rebirth, and birth is not a process but a singular event at a point in time. The process that follows is growth, and this is what a Christian should do for the rest of their life. The apostle John said that he wrote what he did "so that you may know that you have eternal life". Paul wrote that the Holy Spirit is "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance". We are either children of God or we are not; we can't be sort-of or in-process children. What Jesus did, he did "once for all", and "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". John also writes that "the one who believes is not condemned". These all point to a singular event rather than a process.

I like to think that when people get engaged, they know the person they intend to marry, and the marriage itself happens at a point in time. But after that comes a life together, and any long-term married couples will tell you that they know each other far better now than they did when they got married. So it is with salvation; we have to know Who we're joining to, but that knowledge will increase with the passage of time.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I know this, but many people lose faith, gain it back, lose faith, gain it back, they go in and out, for years, and back and forth from one set of beliefs to the next, from one church to another, etc. Almost very similar to people and AA programs/groups. For them, they like to say they aren't cured, no matter how long they've been sober.

So, I'm confused how can it be a singular event when some people keep having to do it all over again, some for years ?

Are you of the belief that just because somebody loses faith in god that they are no longer saved, even though they did the whole " I accept Jesus, according to the process described by group " x " ?
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
I know this, but many people lose faith, gain it back, lose faith, gain it back, they go in and out, for years, and back and forth from one set of beliefs to the next, from one church to another, etc. Almost very similar to people and AA programs/groups. For them, they like to say they aren't cured, no matter how long they've been sober.

So, I'm confused how can it be a singular event when some people keep having to do it all over again, some for years ?

Are you of the belief that just because somebody loses faith in god that they are no longer saved, even though they did the whole " I accept Jesus, according to the process described by group " x " ?
 Quoting: !saac


Compare this to any human relationship. What kind of relationship is it when people keep "breaking up" and "making up" all the time? When we see people doing that, we wonder what they saw in each other in the first place.

With salvation I have the same question: how can people have understood the gospel or knew the God they were supposed to be accepting and then keep doing this spiritual bungee-jumping? This sounds exactly what the Bible calls "being tossed back and forth by every wind of doctrine", like a ship without an anchor. Some people actually seem to like it this way, as a sort of martyr complex where they get sympathy for their struggles.

You're probably familiar with the "eternal security" debate at some level, from what you said here; correct me if I'm wrong about that. But again, whether people are continually lost/saved/lost/saved or backslidden/restored/backslidden/restored is irrelevant; what matters is this back and forth pattern, which as I said indicates a faulty grasp of reconciliation and relationship.

This is what I think you alluded to with "I accept Jesus...". So many have been told that salvation means having some big emotional blowout about your sins, walking an aisle in a church, and telling a preacher that you want to be saved (often these emotional scenes are the result of what I described in my previous comment). And the preacher says "invite Jesus into your heart" or something like that, which means nothing and isn't in scripture. They focus on feelings of remorse and then outward good behavior, which of course must include forking over a "tithe" to the church.

So while I do hold to "eternal security", my question for such people is always about the relationship and what they were told when they "got saved".
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Ok, I couldn't get past #1 with the pre-trib rapture.

A quick read of Matthew chapter 24 reveals when the rapture happens, and it's at the end. The 7th trump. The elect are here for the tribulation, the bible is very clear about this.......but they are not here for the wrath of God. The wrath is the destruction of the earth.

Sorry OP, but I didn't read any of it after that because if that's how the post starts off, then the rest of it is also incorrect.

I didn't read the 3 pages of comments, so I don't know what was discussed afterwards, but I'm 100% confident on the bible not supporting a pre-trib rapture.
Keep2theCode (OP)

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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Ok, I couldn't get past #1 with the pre-trib rapture.

A quick read of Matthew chapter 24 reveals when the rapture happens, and it's at the end. The 7th trump. The elect are here for the tribulation, the bible is very clear about this.......but they are not here for the wrath of God. The wrath is the destruction of the earth.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


I'll have to check, but I gave some links elsewhere that support the pre-trib view. I'll try and find that post and put the links here.

EDIT: Duh, it's in my OP here. I especially recommend the Thomas Ice link, which goes to a page of dozens of articles.

Last Edited by Keep2theCode on 10/19/2012 07:07 PM
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Anonymous Coward
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
there will be no pre-tribulation rapture cause if it was nothing will make sence in the book of the revelation or mathew 24, so you failed from the star, the great tribulation will probably begin in 21-12-2012 or in 2013
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Ok, I couldn't get past #1 with the pre-trib rapture.

A quick read of Matthew chapter 24 reveals when the rapture happens, and it's at the end. The 7th trump. The elect are here for the tribulation, the bible is very clear about this.......but they are not here for the wrath of God. The wrath is the destruction of the earth.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


I'll have to check, but I gave some links elsewhere that support the pre-trib view. I'll try and find that post and put the links here.

EDIT: Duh, it's in my OP here. I especially recommend the Thomas Ice link, which goes to a page of dozens of articles.
 Quoting: Keep2theCode


I don't need links, I just need the bible. Matthew chapter 24 spells it out extremely clearly.


"As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

“Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
10/19/2012 07:09 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
Sorry OP, but I didn't read any of it after that because if that's how the post starts off, then the rest of it is also incorrect.

I didn't read the 3 pages of comments, so I don't know what was discussed afterwards, but I'm 100% confident on the bible not supporting a pre-trib rapture.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


Aw come on, Lisa... I believe one thing you don't and I'm a complete failure? Anyway, I'm 100% sure that you're wrong. Fair enough?
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)
Keep2theCode (OP)

User ID: 20545539
United States
10/19/2012 07:11 PM
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Re: A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy
I don't need links, I just need the bible.
 Quoting: Lisa*Lisa


Cop out! The links are BASED on what the Bible says. And if that's not good enough for you, then I'm going to ignore EVERYTHING YOU SAY BECAUSE IT ISN'T THE BIBLE.
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? (Gal. 4:16)

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