A Possible Sequence of Events According to Bible Prophecy

Cop out! The links are BASED on what the Bible says. And if that's not good enough for you, then I'm going to ignore EVERYTHING YOU SAY BECAUSE IT ISN'T THE BIBLE.

I"m not trying to hurt your feeling OP, not at all. Please forgive me if I have done that.

I"m just pointing out that your presentation is incorrect from the start, so how could the rest be accurate?

I'd LOVE to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but the Bible tells otherwise. Please read matthew chapter 24 that I posted above then tell me how you believe differently?

I posted matthew chapter 24. Please read it, then tell me if you still believe in pre-trib rapture. Let's stick with Jesus's words only, not any other articles or links.

This "feeling" is anger, not pain. It really ticks me off when people think they have everything sewed up so tight that not even God could disagree with them. It is fine to BELIEVE you have it right, but I BELIEVE you are wrong. And I will use your own standards against you; at the first sign of disagreement I'm always going to just cut you off and ignore you. See?

You can be angry if you want, that's a sign of the flesh that we need to struggle against. This isn't about you or me, or what we "believe", but rather what Jesus Himself said.

I'm just asking you to read matthew chapter 24 and let's discuss it, ok?

Oh please... now I'm fleshly and spiritually immature because I take exception to your claim of infallibility.

Discuss it? That's not the Bible so I would only ignore everything you say. It's no different than A LINK to an article that "discusses it". And some of those links are to my own words, my own studies.

And you still act like I never read Mt. 24.

Compare this to any human relationship. What kind of relationship is it when people keep "breaking up" and "making up" all the time? When we see people doing that, we wonder what they saw in each other in the first place.

With salvation I have the same question: how can people have understood the gospel or knew the God they were supposed to be accepting and then keep doing this spiritual bungee-jumping? This sounds exactly what the Bible calls "being tossed back and forth by every wind of doctrine", like a ship without an anchor. Some people actually seem to like it this way, as a sort of martyr complex where they get sympathy for their struggles.

You're probably familiar with the "eternal security" debate at some level, from what you said here; correct me if I'm wrong about that. But again, whether people are continually lost/saved/lost/saved or backslidden/restored/backslidden/restored is irrelevant; what matters is this back and forth pattern, which as I said indicates a faulty grasp of reconciliation and relationship.

This is what I think you alluded to with "I accept Jesus...". So many have been told that salvation means having some big emotional blowout about your sins, walking an aisle in a church, and telling a preacher that you want to be saved (often these emotional scenes are the result of what I described in my previous comment). And the preacher says "invite Jesus into your heart" or something like that, which means nothing and isn't in scripture. They focus on feelings of remorse and then outward good behavior, which of course must include forking over a "tithe" to the church.

So while I do hold to "eternal security", my question for such people is always about the relationship and what they were told when they "got saved".

Indeed, if you can't definitively say what your relationship to something is, then how do you even know what it is that you think you have a relationship with ?

I'm not really familiar with the typical arguments/stances on a lot of these topics, they've not been part of my life until this year, so excuse my ignorance about what the bible says, etc, I've not read it, yet.

I do hear a lot of that, " Accept him into your heart ", etc, but in a group discussion about what that's even supposed to mean, it's another topic were each answer is different, sometimes drastically.

My own reconciliations with god when i was getting ready to die, preparing myself, were probably very different from what people would have told me to do, had I asked. There was no bible or church attendance for me, so it leaves me wondering what it was i did, and why it happened.

This is where I point to the written Bible as valuable and necessary, since it takes us back to the source when we get confused. Had nothing been written down (as some people think it should be), it would truly be impossible to know anything about God for sure.

So tell me, what is your understanding of God and how did you reconcile with him?

I tend to keep my view of god simplistic, god just is, and god just does what god does, likely outside of my understanding, I just accept it on faith that god exists, but is far outside human definition.

I also think the universe is far stranger then we know, or can know, and so is god, ultimately. Maybe god doesn't even know where god came from.

I would rather live life with an attitude of feeling grateful for the experience of living, as opposed to not.

As far as my reconciliations, they were just me talking with god, in the privacy of my own home, there was no praying on my knees. There is no constant every day prayer for me, aside from my prayers for others done in the privacy of my own house.

I think I have a very casual relationship that I take very seriously, if that makes any sense, but to some people I say this to, they tell me what I'm doing is wrong, how I'm doing it is wrong, etc.

It's more of a sentiment then anything, but it's how you really feel on the inside inside that determines the strength of the relationship with god, right ?

It's not about how loud you pray in front of other people, or how much scripture you can recite, it's something that's seen in how you live as an example to others, and whether or not you choose to live life striving to be a positive example, and be as kind, compassionate, and tolerant to people as you can, all the while striving to improve yourself as well, as opposed to being the biggest ego, loudest mouth, etc.

Personally, I think the people who pray the loudest are the ones jesus would avoid hanging out with in a casual setting.

.....but that's just me

So, who knows ? I like to believe I did something right, if I hadn't, I think I'd be dead by now.

If you’re familiar with the science fiction movie I, Robot or with writer Isaac Asimov, you know about the Three Laws of Robotics. In the movie there is a slogan about the newest line of human-like robots being “Three Laws Safe”, meaning humans could completely trust them.

But I think Christianity could use a “three laws” kind of thing, as an alternative to the pedantic complexity that confuses some people, makes others conceited, and is largely ignored by most. The “deep things of God” (1 Cor. 2:10) are a vast treasure trove of knowledge, but not everyone is interested in going there. They just want to live.

So I came up with this as a first draft and would be interested in any feedback:

Law One
A Christian must believe that Jesus, the embodiment of the one and only God, died to reconcile mankind to God and rose physically from the dead.

Law Two
A Christian must live to please God above all: by avoiding anything God has called ‘sin’, by adopting an attitude of humility and service toward others, their property, and the natural world, and by taking reasonable care of all of those as s/he is able.

Law Three
A Christian is free to act and believe as s/he chooses, provided such actions and beliefs do not conflict with, add to, or subtract from the First or Second Law.

Basically, the first law means you can’t add Jesus to an existing religion or subtract belief in His death and resurrection. The second means no “lording over” or poor stewardship. The third means no micromanagement.

I believe the two end-time witnesses of Revelation will be who the jews know as Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David.

The purpose of these two individuals is to first messiah ben Joseph gathers the lost 10 tribes and then messiah ben David re-unites both houses of Isreal once again

Messiah ben Joseph is the suffering servant and a forerunner to and Messiah ben David (the conquering king.)
Many christians claim Jesus is both Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David(first He came as Messiah ben Joseph(suffering servant) then He will return as Messiah ben David(conquering king.) Jesus wasn't from the tribe of Ephraim, which is what "ben Joseph" means and was a tribe in Northern Israel(Lost 10 tribes). Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. Jesus is the atonement for sin but the Messiah ben Joseph being talked about is one that gathers the lost 10 tribes and brings them to Jerusalem and is a warrior and is killed at the east gate in jerusalem by armilus(this never happened to Jesus)

Most people can only associate the word "messiah" with Jesus but "messiah" simply means "annointed one" A messiah is a savior or liberator of a people in the Jewish, Christian, Islamic or other religions.

In the Hebrew Bible a messiah (or mashiach) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil and we know from Zechariah 4:14

the two witnesses of Revelation are the two "annointed ones" spoken of here in Zechariah

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life and no man comes to the father but by him John 14:6(there is no salvation but by Jesus Christ, only by believing by faith that Jesus died on the cross for the atonement for you sins are you saved)

This Chapter In Ezekiel shows Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph(Joseph gathers and David unites the two sticks or houses of Israel back to one house)

Ezekeil 37 paraphrased:
1 God takes "son of man" to valley of dry bones

2.God tells "son of man" these dry bones are Israel

3.God tells "son of man to take "two sticks" one for Judah and one for Joseph and combine the two sticks which represent two houses of Israel that separated during the time of solomon.

4.God will gather the children of Israel from among the heathen and bring them into their own land

5.God will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations,neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all(This has to be an endtime event because the Northern kingdom, lost 10 tribes hasn't came back yet.)

6.And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes,
and do them.

7.And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.(How long is forever?)

Paraphrase of what messiah ben Joseph does: Regathers the lost 10 tribes and rebuilds the temple and is killed at the east gate by armilus

Paraphrase of what messiah ben David does: resurrects messiah ben joseph(they are the two witnesses of revelation), Re-unites the two houses Of Israel (Northern kingdom with the southern kingdom), and becomes the prince as mentioned in Ezekiel 37:7 This man will feed the people during the spiritual famine that will be in the land: Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD...just as Joseph provided physical food for the famine in Egypt this man will provide spiritual food during this spiritual famine and because he can interpret the plan he will be awarded with being 2nd in command under Jesus.

What is the purpose of Mashiach? The Mashiachis an individual who is responsible for, and who, either overtly, or covertly, spearheads a collective process of tikkun. Tikkunis perhaps the single most important concept in all of Judaism The word tikkunmeans ‘rectification’ or ‘mending.’ In the Kabbalah, tikkunalso refers to a process of ‘elevation’ and ‘transformation.’ Whereas thesecond definition implies taking something that is already complete into a more refined state, the first definition implies that something has broken, or become torn, and the immediate goal is only to return it to its original state of completion.These are the processes, or modes, of tikkun.The one who performs that act of restoration is said to be its redeemer (goel ),which is another quality and name for messiah Therefore, the Messiah is simply the one who is responsible for the restoration—the tikkun—and the redemption of creation.”

Origin and Sources of the messiah ben Joseph Tradition

Scholars and theologians have been unsuccessful in determining the origin of the Messiah ben joseph tradition. Without knowing where or from whom the tradition originated, one can only make a vain attempt to explain the ambiguities relating to the tradition. Coming to a full understanding of the MBJ tradition is difficult considering the fact that every rabbi and scholar have expressed different ideas or theories surrounding it. I have included a brief summary of the earliest known sources of the MBJ tradition which may be helpful. The Messiah ben joseph traditions are found in at least four sources: (1) The Talmud, which is a collection of rabbinical discussions pertaining to Jewish law, custom, and history. The discussions of the rabbis were kept orally for several centuries and were eventually recorded around AD 200.[3] (2) The Targumim, which are Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Bible compiled in Babylon or Israel during the Second Temple Period (537–20 BC). (3) Kabbalistic writings, which contain Jewish mystical traditions regarding the creation of the earth and other ideas concerning God and spirituality. (4) The apocryphal and pseudepigraphical writings, which are religious and extrabiblical texts resembling books of scripture. These texts were not included with the other canonical books and date from around 300 BC to AD 100.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Armilus is "a king who will arise at the end of time against the Messiah ben joseph, and will be conquered by him after having brought much distress upon Israel", similar to Gog. He is spoken of in both Midrash Vayosha and Sefer Zerubbabel, in which he defeats the Messiah ben Joseph. The Messiah ben David comes and raises messiah ben joseph from the dead and the ministry of the two witnesses(messiah ben joseph, messiah ben david) shortly begins

"I realize this needs severe editing for clarity and that one big bulky construction above is not even a sentence, yet goes on and on assembling a predicate without ever graduating to a full sentence. I'm posting this anyway out of fear it'll disappear. I've seen some very strange behavior in this 'reply' function before, but never as much as will this post. At one point it wasn't letting me scroll, but dancing crazily all over the place. It was in 'character' with stuff that's happened before, but in degree, off the charts."

Subject I mean, not predicate!

And another thing I meant to put with above ^ is that the law covenant-Mosaic law's main purpose was to keep descent of "seed" promised to Abraham, to come through him ,through which" all the nations would bless themselves", and narrowed down --went through Rahab,Ruth and Boaz, for instance, through David,again-- to keep descent-PURE and beyond dispute. Once the Messiah ,Jesus Christ, appeared, the Law covenant which had served as a "fence" keeping them [somewhat? or completely?]in their tribes ,and in their bounds of behavior, and separate from everybody else in the world,again:LAW was no longer needed. People had been able to join up all along , but they had to scrupulously keep the law too. All so no one concerned could dispute the Messiah's lineage.

I just realized that the word, separate, must have as roots, se-"self" and parate-"birthed". "inbred", in a GOOD way.

I'm posting this and will come back with some scriptures, such as Jesus' genealogy, which no one on GLP ever acts like they've ever noticed , that I've ever noticed them noticing anyway.

[link to wol.jw.org]
Genealogy of Jesus Christ

I'm sure you're convinced you're right, but I disagree of course. Time will reveal the truth. And I don't even need to condemn or threaten you in return.



I've read the whole Bible many times, also parts in other languages (German and koine Greek). So I can assure you that I do not "falsly" believe anything. Feel free to read the huge amount of material at the Thomas Ice link I gave in the OP for well-argued defenses of the pre-trib Rapture.

Yes, you do falsely believe a lie. Further, thr Lord warns us about your deception and not to believe it in this passage:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

Have you ever considered that Bible 'prophecy' is allegorical in nature and this is what happens to all empires? Birth, Rise, Fall, Decline?

That it is an allegory of the homeostatic nature of humanity.

This is what so many fail to grasp about the whole choosing of Abram and then the law which came 400 years after the promise. It also shows itself whenever someone uses the term "Abrahamic religions", since they ignore the line through Isaac and Jacob as the line of promise. And that promise, as you know, is the Seed of the Woman, the Messiah, Jesus. Having come, he fulfilled (made no longer in effect) the law for the Jews, but they "cut him off" and were scattered.

So since then, God has turned to the Gentiles and will not turn back to finish the Jewish prophecies until "the full number of Gentiles has come in", at which point the "age of grace" is over. This is yet another support for my belief in the pre-trib Rapture; the final judgments are not for the Bride but for unbelieving Israel and the rebellious world. We are not to suffer the wrath of God with them, since we are in Christ and thus are no longer under condemnation.

I haven't addressed all this other stuff about the two witnesses because I think it ignores too much scripture, and because it's really not pertinent to the topic here about a sequence rather than chasing every rabbit trail, as I said in my OP.

thanks for writing back. I have to leave right now, but want you to know how much I enjoy both your writing, and how seriously you take this. I seem to recognize in you the same thing i feel so important to me,- "seeking to establish God's righteousness". I guess we're all maybe guilty of seeking to establish our own, to various degrees.
All works-in-progress? I suspected nothing of what I've come to regard as the endlessly fascinating Bible contents, a few years ago. now i want to tell as many as possible as much as possible about this book, a wonderful body of evidence of God's righteousness.
Yes you did get under my skin. For one thing, I knew you were right about attributions. I think you may be a left-brain [oh, i mean brian] -dominant person? [have you thought this?], and I a right brian- dominant. It's happened a few times that left-brainers I know, and love, have gotten legitimately [not fakely, as i implied in your case] upset with me , thinking I was doing the things that annoyed them deliberately, to insult them, but I wasn't. And I am a hothead, but I'm better than I was ,I hope, and at least know that's not the way- now. I still stand by what I said last week "wouldn't want to be deprived of you."

Here is part of a post I did on what the story of who Joseph represents. People can't see the true end time meaning because they mirror every story to Jesus and Jesus is in the volume of the book, but there is also the first begotten of Jesus who will get a double portion and he will be over the entire household. Here is part of a very good book I read on the subject of Joseph that you haven't seen before:

I read a very good book on prophecy that I think many would enjoy it's called "Enigmatic Sunrise Todays Prophetic Secrets Revealed" and it talks about the last day moshiach. Here is one example: The story of Joseph..as christian people are taught that Joseph represents Jesus because the coat of many colors was dipped in goat's blood..the colors represent the many nations and the blood sacrificial of
what Jesus did on calvary. The Pharoah symbolic of GOD the Father and position of greatest authority on earth. Lets consider another idea involving 3 entities. Jesus
represents pharoah, as pharoah was the ruler of the greatest authority on earth at the time.He was also the provider of the bread and nourishment for the life of men. Joseph correctly interpreted the 7 year famine of food, saving the people from physical starvation. This is a foreshadow of the 7 year tribulation when this Joseph(moshiach) will rise up and save the people from spiritual starvation. When Joseph appeared before Pharoah, Joseph told pharoah that God made these things known to him. If Pharoah was symbolic of God, as has been taught by people today then Joseph would have responded "you pharoah, God have given me the interpretation of the dream!" So the first entity is GOD, as Joseph mentions GOD gave him the interpretation. The second entity is Pharoah, symbolic of the ruler of the kingdom and the source of life during the last seven years of the interpreted spiritual famine. A
type of bread of life or another name for Jesus, and he was the head of the kingdom. The third entity was Joseph himself, a servant to pharoah and, King of the kingdom. Pharoah appointed Joseph secondary head of the kingdom. Joseph became leader and commander through his witness, for he correctly interpreted the dream, and by his witness saved many from death. Not by his sacrifice as was the case Jesus bearing the cross, but by his, Josephs' witness was many saved!
Considering the blood of a goat on the coat of many colors. Jesus is not symbolic of the goat of God but he is the Lamb of GOD! why not the blood of a lamb if it was to symbolize Jesus or a ram at least a ram is a male sheep. A goat is a ruminant mammal related to the sheep, this is symbolic of the gentiles! Again we are dealing with a goat even depicted in the story of Jacob, covering his hands, works in goatskin! Did God direct Josephs' brothers to the goat and not to a lamb by mistake? Was God confused and couldn't find a sheep at the time, or perhaps he forgot the difference between a sheep and a goat! I think not!
Even as Joseph's brothers chose the blood of a goat and rejected the blood of a lamb. Even so would come the time when Joseph's brothers the jewish people, would for a second time reject the blood of the Lamb Of GOD! The blood is not the significant thing here it is what the blood symbolizes this is significant!The Word of God states the life of man is in the blood (Gen.9:4-6)....this is just a small portion
of this book..I would recommend it to everyone...it shows this last day moshiach very clearly

I"m not trying to hurt your feeling OP, not at all. Please forgive me if I have done that.

I"m just pointing out that your presentation is incorrect from the start, so how could the rest be accurate?

I'd LOVE to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but the Bible tells otherwise. Please read matthew chapter 24 that I posted above then tell me how you believe differently?

I watched a religious program where the preacher taught about the harvesting of fields back in Israel in those days... This preacher was saying that not everyone would be raptured. The 'elect' would be left behind. I'm guessing the reason would be to teach the unbelievers. ... So, the 'four winds' in Matthew could be a reference to the 'corners' of the field at harvest.

So it appears that life will be going on as normal when it happens. I would think if the tribulation was in full force, they'd be hiding out in caves, tents, or bunkers, not resting comfortably in bed. Since believers won't be able to buy or sell without the mark, I don't think they'd be allowed to work their jobs as if nothing was going on either (grinding together - two men shall be in the field).

Just something to think about. Those are some verses that explain a possible pre-trib rapture. I really don't think anyone can know for sure exactly how it will all take place though until it actually happens.

Just so you don't also stand by "that woman you gave me". Thanks. (And I have stayed out of that debate thread because it's supposed to be between you and the OP about JW teachings.)

I think that when the Mark of the Beast is enforced, it's because the food is so tightly rationed that everyone will have to get in line for it.

that was an- obviously lame- attempt at humor. " Woman you gave to be with me", says NWT, if that helps. I was kind of referring to the idea that the thread is like his real estate or something, you 2 are privately p-m-ing ,and I felt by the end of the day, like I'd been put through my paces already, by your attitude of Madame Parliamentarian, and that you seemed to regard the rules as so obvious to all as to not need a mention, until violated by 'moi' , 'a threat to the whole western tradition', it appeared. That's when I thought you were being disingenuous, but now I see that is probably a blind spot for me, and that the way I just drift around, allowing myself to be corralled like livestock [and you're the day-wrangler?], under a thread title like that one, vaguely planning to explain that I don't think 'debate' is appropriate to this subject.... It can lead to misunderstandings.

But it's also supposedly going to be ridiculously expensive. Who is going to bother receiving a Mark for the privilege of "buying" stuff they can't even afford?